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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 16, 2017 16:59:01 GMT
Think about it, Anthem is not going to appeal to the standard Bioware fan who enjoys SP experiences backed by a strong supporting cast of characters. So in theory, Anthem should be DOA but is that really the case? Destiny 2 will sell well and way more than MEA and DAI combined. Perhaps Bioware will take a hit with Bioware fans, but the Destiny crossover fans and general shooter/online fans which all out number Bioware fans will be well enough to support and sustain Anthem.
Thoughts?
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Post by Toy Soldier Ken on Sept 16, 2017 19:27:07 GMT
Good point. Those who are fans of exo suits in other media may be drawn in. There are a lot of mech games out there, yet how many exo suit games are present?
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 16, 2017 21:06:29 GMT
Technically no, but it would hurt them to completely abandon that fanbase.
Even with ME3 and ME:A being a bit better at gunplay, shooters have never been a strong suit for BioWare.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 16, 2017 23:48:32 GMT
Technically no, but it would hurt them to completely abandon that fanbase. Even with ME3 and ME:A being a bit better at gunplay, shooters have never been a strong suit for BioWare. But how will this hurt them if they are making more money? Loose 1 million fans but gain 4 million, that is 3 million net new fans.
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 16, 2017 23:52:42 GMT
Technically no, but it would hurt them to completely abandon that fanbase. Even with ME3 and ME:A being a bit better at gunplay, shooters have never been a strong suit for BioWare. But how will this hurt them if they are making more money? Loose 1 million fans but gain 4 million, that is 3 million net new fans. That assumes that they would actually gain that many fans. Why would I switch from other shooters when BioWare has never been that amazing at making one?
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 17, 2017 11:51:14 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
Hm... I think not.
Anthem appears to be MP first. Bio wants the multiplayer gamers. Why? Even Guillemont from Ubisoft agrees that theirs games are focusing on MP because players demand it.
Plus, EA/Bio are constantly looking at the industry directions, what other publishers are doing and how successful their game type are. It's not rocket science if we see Bio going that route. I know of no publisher that willfully ignores a large market and the MP genre is a large one.
Bio can pull this off if the game is more than just co-op MP. Integration of a vast world, solid story, likeable characters, good combat mechanics, a strong solo play option may just give the non Bio traditional gamers the necessary differentiation from similar titles.
Last, Anthem's first video teaser definitely emphasizes MP mechanics. That is a good indication where Bio is looking to fish.
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Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 17, 2017 13:56:50 GMT
This all depends very much on how the SP experience will be designed in the game, which is very much up in the air at this point.
Still, they appear to have a full writing team on this game so I doubt SP story will be abandoned nearly to the degree some are prophesying.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2017 14:37:30 GMT
What's even a BiOWARE fan? Someone who played one of their games before? Three? Two last franchises? All their games including Shattered Steel and SWTOR? That someone enjoyed Baldur's Gate 2 does not mean that s/he won't like Anthem.
BioWARE needs buyers. The gaming history of those buyers is completely irrelevant. They will try to make a game that as many peeps as possible would purchase. And seeing how they have a seasoned writing team, and an improving combat design team, chances are they will put as many hooks as they can afford to attract a diverse buyers.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 17, 2017 16:12:14 GMT
The answer has to be no, that's the whole point of branching into a more lucrative gaming genre. And let me go further and say, it's a good thing BW is branching out, because having all their financial eggs in one game-type basket is not sound business sense. In the extreme, hardcore BW fans could be the biggest financial liability of the company, and could ultimately lead to it's demise if they push the "don't change!" agenda far enough. Think about it, Anthem is not going to appeal to the standard Bioware fan who enjoys SP experiences backed by a strong supporting cast of characters. That is an extreme opinion that a) is based on assumptions about what Anthem is, which could be mostly wrong, and more about you than about BW fans in general. I've been a BW fan since NWN1 and I'm excited about Anthem. And I'll be excited about DA4 too. The Reddit sub on Anthem has several self-proclaimed BW fans who have also stated they are excited about Anthem. But ultimately, as I've stated in other threads, even if every BW fan boycotted Anthem and flamed every social network they could get their hands on, it might not matter. Anthem might still be a commercial success, fueled solely by gamers who enjoy games like Destiny. In fact, I'd say there is a greater risk of losing new action game players to a very traditional BW SP experience that compromises on action, than there is of losing hardcore BW game players to an action game with compromised BW SP experience. It's simple math. If action game players outnumber BW fans 5:1, or 3:1, 2:1 or even 1.1:1, there's more to lose commercially to not having enough to attract action game players, than there is hardcore BW fans.
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 17, 2017 18:46:23 GMT
I really don't think there are that many "BioWare fans" anymore. Just from what I have been seeing people might claim they are, but at the same time will only point to one or two games they liked and then proceed to demonstrate how every other BioWare release insults them. I see a lot of people claim to like "old BioWare", but proceed to claim they liked what they dislike about the newer games, so it is just hard for me to say they have that much of a fanbase even prior to Dragon Age: Inquisition which was fairly divisive.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 17, 2017 18:58:35 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
Hm... I think not.
Anthem appears to be MP first. Bio wants the multiplayer gamers. Why? Even Guillemont from Ubisoft agrees that theirs games are focusing on MP because players demand it.
Plus, EA/Bio are constantly looking at the industry directions, what other publishers are doing and how successful their game type are. It's not rocket science if we see Bio going that route. I know of no publisher that willfully ignores a large market and the MP genre is a large one.
Bio can pull this off if the game is more than just co-op MP. Integration of a vast world, solid story, likeable characters, good combat mechanics, a strong solo play option may just give the non Bio traditional gamers the necessary differentiation from similar titles.
Last, Anthem's first video teaser definitely emphasizes MP mechanics. That is a good indication where Bio is looking to fish.
But who is driving that demand for MP content? Is the demand there cause fans are demanding it or is it there cause publishers are forcing it on us cause MP content is cheaper than MP content? Skyrim had no MP and sold well and people loved it. Same with Witcher 3 and other games. While ME3 did good with multiplayer, ME2 is generally seen as the favorite game. So I am not so sure who is creating this "MP demand?" I think it is largely publishers forcing it on us cause they want $$$.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 17, 2017 19:08:01 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
Hm... I think not.
Anthem appears to be MP first. Bio wants the multiplayer gamers. Why? Even Guillemont from Ubisoft agrees that theirs games are focusing on MP because players demand it.
Plus, EA/Bio are constantly looking at the industry directions, what other publishers are doing and how successful their game type are. It's not rocket science if we see Bio going that route. I know of no publisher that willfully ignores a large market and the MP genre is a large one.
Bio can pull this off if the game is more than just co-op MP. Integration of a vast world, solid story, likeable characters, good combat mechanics, a strong solo play option may just give the non Bio traditional gamers the necessary differentiation from similar titles.
Last, Anthem's first video teaser definitely emphasizes MP mechanics. That is a good indication where Bio is looking to fish.
But who is driving that demand for MP content? Is the demand there cause fans are demanding it or is it there cause publishers are forcing it on us cause MP content is cheaper than MP content? Skyrim had no MP and sold well and people loved it. Same with Witcher 3 and other games. While ME3 did good with multiplayer, ME2 is generally seen as the favorite game. So I am not so sure who is creating this "MP demand?" I think it is largely publishers forcing it on us cause they want $$$. It's not one-dimensional. There is MP demand by players, else people wouldn't go crazy on stuff like PUBG. MP appeals to publishers because a loot grinder hooks people likely for longer and that means a chance for more after sale revenue. So they try to find a formula that appeals to that demand. Me3MP has pulled in quite a couple of SP, so why not use the rep for SP storytelling to do that on a larger scale?
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 17, 2017 21:07:15 GMT
This all depends very much on how the SP experience will be designed in the game, which is very much up in the air at this point. Still, they appear to have a full writing team on this game so I doubt SP story will be abandoned nearly to the degree some are prophesying. -(_ANTHEM_)-
And that is the puzzling aspect. How much of an SP game will it be, when the play mechanics is 1st person in the HUB(s)... SKYRIM perhaps? But, then, I can't see Bio abandoning the cinematic quality of the cut scenes used in ME or DAI... it would be a step backwards, methinks.
Their next video teaser ought to clear this up, I hope.
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Post by luketrevelyan on Sept 17, 2017 21:39:58 GMT
Just as an anecdote, at work we started taking on a different type of client. Not only did we fail to satisfy the new type of client, we also annoyed our existing client base who felt they weren't getting enough attention. 20% of the company was let go, we lost the new clients, and now just focus on our original client base again. One of the hardest things in business is to expand into a new area. It can be done, but you should probably have a backup plan too.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 18, 2017 0:27:44 GMT
But who is driving that demand for MP content? Is the demand there cause fans are demanding it or is it there cause publishers are forcing it on us cause MP content is cheaper than MP content? Skyrim had no MP and sold well and people loved it. Same with Witcher 3 and other games. While ME3 did good with multiplayer, ME2 is generally seen as the favorite game. So I am not so sure who is creating this "MP demand?" I think it is largely publishers forcing it on us cause they want $$$. It's not one-dimensional. There is MP demand by players, else people wouldn't go crazy on stuff like PUBG. MP appeals to publishers because a loot grinder hooks people likely for longer and that means a chance for more after sale revenue. So they try to find a formula that appeals to that demand. Me3MP has pulled in quite a couple of SP, so why not use the rep for SP storytelling to do that on a larger scale? Im not sure it isnt one dimensional. Nobody was complaining about the lack of MP in ME1 and ME2. No Bioware fan was complaining about Bioware not making MP games. Yes, fans may have appreciated the addition to MP in games like GTA, RDR, ME3, Uncharted etc, but they were never demanding it. Fans would have been generally satisfied if ME3, RDR, GTA5, Uncharted, and Last of Us didnt have MP. It is just the publisher side of things that are pushing it on us cause it is a profit driver for them. They can sell us microtransactions and MP content is cheaper to make than SP content. Fans of Witcher 3 liked thr game based on its story and nobody wad saying it should have had MP. If there were a Witcher 4 and it had MP, people would play it and like it, but they never asked for it. They would be just as satisfied if it was SP only. There is a demand for MP, but it is driven by the industry, not the consumers. If a co-worker bought me a pizza for luncg, I would appreciate it and eat it, but I was not walking around asking my peers to buy me lunch. Me eating the pizza and appreciating it is not the same as me having a demand that my co-workers buys me pizza for lunch.
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 18, 2017 0:48:34 GMT
It's not one-dimensional. There is MP demand by players, else people wouldn't go crazy on stuff like PUBG. MP appeals to publishers because a loot grinder hooks people likely for longer and that means a chance for more after sale revenue. So they try to find a formula that appeals to that demand. Me3MP has pulled in quite a couple of SP, so why not use the rep for SP storytelling to do that on a larger scale? Im not sure it isnt one dimensional. Nobody was complaining about the lack of MP in ME1 and ME2. No Bioware fan was complaining about Bioware not making MP games. Yes, fans may have appreciated the addition to MP in games like GTA, RDR, ME3, Uncharted etc, but they were never demanding it. Fans would have been generally satisfied if ME3, RDR, GTA5, Uncharted, and Last of Us didnt have MP. It is just the publisher side of things that are pushing it on us cause it is a profit driver for them. They can sell us microtransactions and MP content is cheaper to make than SP content. Fans of Witcher 3 liked thr game based on its story and nobody wad saying it should have had MP. If there were a Witcher 4 and it had MP, people would play it and like it, but they never asked for it. They would be just as satisfied if it was SP only. There is a demand for MP, but it is driven by the industry, not the consumers. If a co-worker bought me a pizza for luncg, I would appreciate it and eat it, but I was not walking around asking my peers to buy me lunch. Me eating the pizza and appreciating it is not the same as me having a demand that my co-workers buys me pizza for lunch. If what you mean to say is that people drawn to the story and such of single player games aren't asking for MP, you may be right. However, many of those same players will still enjoy MP, which increases the lifespan of the game, keeping people playing longer. There are also players who were not interested particularly in that single player experience who are interested by the idea of playing with friends. The idea that developers are putting in MP despite there being no demand simply isn't the case though.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 18, 2017 0:51:46 GMT
Im not sure it isnt one dimensional. Nobody was complaining about the lack of MP in ME1 and ME2. No Bioware fan was complaining about Bioware not making MP games. Yes, fans may have appreciated the addition to MP in games like GTA, RDR, ME3, Uncharted etc, but they were never demanding it. Fans would have been generally satisfied if ME3, RDR, GTA5, Uncharted, and Last of Us didnt have MP. It is just the publisher side of things that are pushing it on us cause it is a profit driver for them. They can sell us microtransactions and MP content is cheaper to make than SP content. Fans of Witcher 3 liked thr game based on its story and nobody wad saying it should have had MP. If there were a Witcher 4 and it had MP, people would play it and like it, but they never asked for it. They would be just as satisfied if it was SP only. There is a demand for MP, but it is driven by the industry, not the consumers. If a co-worker bought me a pizza for luncg, I would appreciate it and eat it, but I was not walking around asking my peers to buy me lunch. Me eating the pizza and appreciating it is not the same as me having a demand that my co-workers buys me pizza for lunch. If what you mean to say is that people drawn to the story and such of single player games aren't asking for MP, you may be right. However, many of those same players will still enjoy MP, which increases the lifespan of the game, keeping people playing longer. There are also players who were not interested particularly in that single player experience who are interested by the idea of playing with friends. The idea that developers are putting in MP despite there being no demand simply isn't the case though. But just cause they liked and played the MP does not mean there was DEMAND for it. Again, I ate the pizza that my co-worker got me for lunch, but that does not mean there was a demand from me to have co-workers buy me lunch.
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 18, 2017 1:48:46 GMT
If what you mean to say is that people drawn to the story and such of single player games aren't asking for MP, you may be right. However, many of those same players will still enjoy MP, which increases the lifespan of the game, keeping people playing longer. There are also players who were not interested particularly in that single player experience who are interested by the idea of playing with friends. The idea that developers are putting in MP despite there being no demand simply isn't the case though. But just cause they liked and played the MP does not mean there was DEMAND for it. Again, I ate the pizza that my co-worker got me for lunch, but that does not mean there was a demand from me to have co-workers buy me lunch. Yes, there was. If it attracts more people to play the game or leads long time players to play it for longer, there was demand. There doesn't have to be people literally launching petitions demanding features in order for there to be demand.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 18, 2017 2:11:32 GMT
But just cause they liked and played the MP does not mean there was DEMAND for it. Again, I ate the pizza that my co-worker got me for lunch, but that does not mean there was a demand from me to have co-workers buy me lunch. Yes, there was. If it attracts more people to play the game or leads long time players to play it for longer, there was demand. There doesn't have to be people literally launching petitions demanding features in order for there to be demand. Utilizing something is not the same as demanding it. Again, if you buy gifts for someone and they appreciate the gifts and use/consume them, that isnt the same as demand. Nobody asked for ME3 MP but yet people still played it and enjoyed it. They enjoyed it as a compliment to the main game....sort of a cherry on the top. But what EA did us used that as some sort of justification to go MP focused which isnt what ME3 fans wanted or demanded. What the industry is doing is "twisting our words" and going MP because it is better for them financially. I believe Anthem doesnt need the core Bioware base to succeed, but I also dont believe there was this widespread need/demand for more MP focused games. I think that is something that is more industry driven than consumer driven. Its one of those Steve Jobs, "tell the consumer what they want..." type of situations.
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Post by ENGINEER_H4RR7 on Sept 18, 2017 5:44:45 GMT
Im not sure it isnt one dimensional. Nobody was complaining about the lack of MP in ME1 and ME2. No Bioware fan was complaining about Bioware not making MP games. Yes, fans may have appreciated the addition to MP in games like GTA, RDR, ME3, Uncharted etc, but they were never demanding it. Fans would have been generally satisfied if ME3, RDR, GTA5, Uncharted, and Last of Us didnt have MP. It is just the publisher side of things that are pushing it on us cause it is a profit driver for them. They can sell us microtransactions and MP content is cheaper to make than SP content. Fans of Witcher 3 liked thr game based on its story and nobody wad saying it should have had MP. If there were a Witcher 4 and it had MP, people would play it and like it, but they never asked for it. They would be just as satisfied if it was SP only. There is a demand for MP, but it is driven by the industry, not the consumers. If a co-worker bought me a pizza for luncg, I would appreciate it and eat it, but I was not walking around asking my peers to buy me lunch. Me eating the pizza and appreciating it is not the same as me having a demand that my co-workers buys me pizza for lunch. If what you mean to say is that people drawn to the story and such of single player games aren't asking for MP, you may be right. However, many of those same players will still enjoy MP, which increases the lifespan of the game, keeping people playing longer. There are also players who were not interested particularly in that single player experience who are interested by the idea of playing with friends. The idea that developers are putting in MP despite there being no demand simply isn't the case though. I disagree that an MP keeps a game alive longer. In my opinion, it is much more repetitive than SP gameplay and gets boring fast. That is because in SP, developers must put in a lot more content than in MP, thus creating a greater diversity in SP. Now, I have plaid 400 hours in ME 3 MP, but am burnt out from it as well as annoyed and aggravated that at one point you stop unlocking the ultra rare items and start getting only boost, and that is why RNG sucks. Haven't touched MEA MP at all. Also, generally, story in shared world and MP environments gets watered down, and that doesn't matter how good the story is. You get distracted by people who are playing with you, either by chatting with them, coordinating attacks or simply arguing with randoms. That has all happened to me in MP a lot. Just look at the original Titanfall, not only did vary few people cared for the story or paid attention to it, but most abandoned the game after a while, leaving it unplayable, which is another reason why it is a bad idea to combine story and MP. While PUBG, DOTA 2, and overwatch have succeeded enormously, other games who are MP focused, like Evolve, Battleborn, Law breakers , For Honor, have failed miserably and are unplayable right now. Not to mention Dead Space 3 was transformed from a survival horror to an action buddy 3rd person shooter, which is why not why fans play it, thus it sold horribly.Doom 4 MP sucks, and that had nothing to do with the SP which was awesome by the way. Also, not every SP focused game benefits from MP. I preferred if they actually hired more programmers and 3d Modelers for MEA instead of network engineers for the MP. Finally, I do not like when MP invades Sp. In ME3, when it launched, you had to play the MP to get all the points to unlock all the endings. The point of it is not how good or bad the ME3 ending were, but the fact that you had to play a mode that many didn't ask for to unlock the SP content. This is the worst thing ever in games, for my SP content to depend on other people. And this is the point that annoys me the most.
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 18, 2017 6:28:42 GMT
But just cause they liked and played the MP does not mean there was DEMAND for it. Again, I ate the pizza that my co-worker got me for lunch, but that does not mean there was a demand from me to have co-workers buy me lunch. Actually, when I bought XCOM 2 War of the Chosen recently I helped to create a demand for turn based strategy games on PC because demand is used in marketing to note how good or bad something is selling. We say there is a higher demand for MP focused games because those have a tendency to sell better right now than SP focused games. Things like Skyrim and The Witcher 3 are the exception here rather than the rule, because that statement never said that SP only games couldn't sell well. It doesn't really apply to gifts in this context because if EA offers me a free game on Origin I'm probably going to take it since it's free, even if I end up not playing it. Though I stand by my argument that unless BioWare is really going to step up their game in making a shooter(I would say ME3/Andromeda are pretty good, not amazing), they're still going to want their main target market they have a reputation for making games for. Obviously if they could step it up to amazing it wouldn't be needed. Blizzard had never made a FPS game before Overwatch and we all know how that worked out for them.
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 18, 2017 8:08:47 GMT
Just as an anecdote, at work we started taking on a different type of client. Not only did we fail to satisfy the new type of client, we also annoyed our existing client base who felt they weren't getting enough attention. 20% of the company was let go, we lost the new clients, and now just focus on our original client base again. One of the hardest things in business is to expand into a new area. It can be done, but you should probably have a backup plan too. I get what you are saying, but if your company was trying to appease your customer base over and over again and nothing seemed to make them happy aside from a smaller portion of your existing customers would your company continue to try and satisfy your existing customers? Right now that is how I see BioWare where they do have a lot of people that bought their games in the past, but a very loud portion of that customer base will not accept anything BioWare produces. I don't think "I had BioWare because their are SJW propagandists" is an argument of an existing customer that will ever like what BioWare does or the people that claim "old BioWare was the only time they made good games" where I can find fault going back to Jade Empire with any game BioWare produced, it is just unacceptable unless its 100% perfect for every individual now.
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Post by PillarBiter on Sept 18, 2017 11:10:28 GMT
Any self-respecting company that wants to survive has to innovate and evolve over time.
Just because gamers refuse to change, doesn't mean Bioware isn't allowed to.
I respect their willingness to try to excel at other stuff immensely, and look forward to Anthem. And if it tanks...? Ah well, nice try (again).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 12:22:31 GMT
I really don't think there are that many "BioWare fans" anymore. Just from what I have been seeing people might claim they are, but at the same time will only point to one or two games they liked and then proceed to demonstrate how every other BioWare release insults them. I see a lot of people claim to like "old BioWare", but proceed to claim they liked what they dislike about the newer games, so it is just hard for me to say they have that much of a fanbase even prior to Dragon Age: Inquisition which was fairly divisive. They had a fairly loyal following with BG1 and BG2, judging from the modding community. It was a lively scene and fairily consistently BG2 was a golden standard, while Throne of Bhaal was the first dislike started, but it was not strongly worded, hysterical and crusading like it is now.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 18, 2017 13:03:47 GMT
But just cause they liked and played the MP does not mean there was DEMAND for it. Again, I ate the pizza that my co-worker got me for lunch, but that does not mean there was a demand from me to have co-workers buy me lunch. Actually, when I bought XCOM 2 War of the Chosen recently I helped to create a demand for turn based strategy games on PC because demand is used in marketing to note how good or bad something is selling. We say there is a higher demand for MP focused games because those have a tendency to sell better right now than SP focused games. Things like Skyrim and The Witcher 3 are the exception here rather than the rule, because that statement never said that SP only games couldn't sell well. It doesn't really apply to gifts in this context because if EA offers me a free game on Origin I'm probably going to take it since it's free, even if I end up not playing it. Though I stand by my argument that unless BioWare is really going to step up their game in making a shooter(I would say ME3/Andromeda are pretty good, not amazing), they're still going to want their main target market they have a reputation for making games for. Obviously if they could step it up to amazing it wouldn't be needed. Blizzard had never made a FPS game before Overwatch and we all know how that worked out for them. The quantity of sales does not equate to demand. Demand for example was after the release of Halo 1. Gamers WANTED to play it online rather than just LAN and thus came Halo 2 with online MP. If ME3 never had MP, nobody would have complained. Cyberpunk 2077 will have MP, but nobody is really talking about it cause it is the SP that people want.
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