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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 25, 2017 18:49:01 GMT
This thread starts with a Twitter-discussion on the topic of how game publishers can use (and abuse) forums as part of their community engagement strategy. The central tenet being: Forums can be a good thing and don't have to be toxic. twitter.com/BSNforumsText of the tweet discussion: - This is a twitter response about the extent to which developers communicate with fans (or don't) and each other on Twitter and forums. 1/34
- It's prompted by wonderful tweets by @charlesrandall
which DiscoBabaloo and @curiousartemis were discussing. 2/34 - The pity of it is that Twitter is a truly awful platform for having a long-form conversation on, which is both a pro and con for devs. 3/34
- So often a game developer or producer will tweet something intended to inform, but nuance is so easily lost in 140 characters. 4/34
- Similarly, with game updates increasingly communicated on Twitter, games media write speculative articles around the flimsiest tweet. 5/34
- The upshot is that by withdrawing from forums, publishers have not removed the risk of disclosure, only limited it to short sentences. 6/34
- Picking up on some points that @charlesrandall makes, Charles is absolutely right that there are some dumb and angry folks out there. 7/34
- Yet most fan-bases are not made up of dumb and angry people. I'd say they are in the vast minority, but they are noisy. 8/34
- Developers fan forums can make mistakes with the dumb and angry posters by doing one of two things: 9/34
- The worst sin is to embargo valid but angry feedback entirely, closing hot topics. Differentiate between 'angry' and the issue. 10/34
- Sites or forums that want to only have a PR conversation may control the message (on their forum) to tumbleweed visited sterility. 11/34
- The second sin is to attempt to feed the troll (not a new lesson) rather than addressing (if possible) the valid points. 12/34
- Most 'fans' don't actually expect developers to reveal secrets. Devs should not feel self-conscious saying 'soon' or 'talk later'. 13/34
- The takeaway is that developers do not need to feel responsible or uncomfortable if a dick pops up in their stream or thread. 14/34
- Community management and forum moderators will help, but the best help can actually come from the non-dickish fans if encouraged. 15/34
- So are forums toxic? No more than Twitter, YouTube or Twitch. Though those sites make it easier to talk to the hand (block). 16/34
- Toxicity in forums can be hard to avoid, but there is a line that can be successfully drawn between being too draconian or soft. 17/34
- Developers and Producers can successfully post on forums, increasing community engagement significantly if they remember some rules: 18/34
- They don't have to respond to anything they don't want to. Let moderators and other fans shoot down the idiots. 19/34
- Popping into a forum is really appreciated by fans even if it's just to swing by. Devs should not feel they have to be the bearer of news. 20/34
- Popping in only when there is an issue increases the chances of being hog-piled, so light occasional visits work best. 21/34
- And discussing the 'latest game' is not mandatory, many fans love to discuss older games that it's much safer to discuss. 22/34
- I'll reference @bsnforums for familiarity's sake. Being "official' does bring an additional attraction for 'angry posters'. 23/34
- Whether it was the #MassEffect3 endings or the #DragonAgeInquisition Key Glitch, those were challenging times. 24/34
- But even in those tough times, there were many many fans willing to help. Toxicity does not have to define a forum ~ it's a choice. 25/34
- @bioware closed its official forums because it was no longer being used as a communication channel. 26/34
- That misunderstands that a fan community mostly wants to talk to itself. Even without official support, those same fans keep talking. 27/34
- Without wishing to embarrass anyone, there are people who have a gift for engaging with the community. They 'just talk'. 28/34
- We see those people swing by and chat sometimes and the fans love and appreciate it. We hope they get a buzz (and information) too. 29/34
- So callout to folk like @sjosz, LukeBarrett, allanschumacher , biomasika @publicmain, @tibermoon and DiscoBabaloo for being awesome. 30/34
- They understand community engagement, they don't say what they can't and chat honestly when they can. Fans love them. Thanks!. 31/34
- Key messages: Yes, devs have to be careful what they say, but that doesn't have to mean a divide from gaming communities. 32/34
- By engaging sensibly with forums (within boundaries) toxicity can be reduced, engagement grown and misunderstandings averted. 33/34
- And such conversations can be curated on a forum, not lost amongst yesterday's internet ephemera. 34/34 bsn.boards.net/post/890349/thread
Just needed to get that off my chest, as I often see folk say how toxic fans and forums (and particularly BioWare fans and forums) are and I don't think that's wholly representative.
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 1, 2017 18:10:07 GMT
While I do agree that it wasn't everyone being toxic the problem is the toxic people where chasing away the average player making it seem even more so. Several of the comments I got over the years on the BSN could have easily driven other people away for they just don't want to deal with it increasing the ration between non-toxic and toxic players.
While I agree that there was still communication on the BSN, too many of the developer already moved away from it. I remember when Allen Schumacher came back after a hiatus and pretty much said he was done being there himself because he was tired of what was going on there and he was pretty much one of the last BioWare developers and he felt like he couldn't use any of the tools available because then there would be an uproar over "free speech" and I remember when the one account was banned including the players games and how it became big news for at least a week or two.
So the problem is the loudest most aggressive part of the community pretty much ruined it for everyone for EA/BioWare basically got tired of trying to keep up with a flood of people non-stop complaining and insulting people that disagreed with an opinion they personally held to high accord even if it had no evidence to be true.
Edit:
I know I pretty much stopped going to BSN Prime when people started to FIFY to developer posts, for that wasn't trying to have a conversation and them trying to keep us informed, it was being an idiot and pushing a personal agenda just like what people accused BioWare of doing.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 3, 2017 16:38:55 GMT
I think some Devs are frustrated. A lot of gamers rely on emotion and as a result are irrational. I still remember the Jennifer Hepler debacle apparently because she wanted games to focus on less combat.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 4, 2017 4:13:50 GMT
I think some Devs are frustrated. A lot of gamers rely on emotion and as a result are irrational. I still remember the Jennifer Hepler debacle apparently because she wanted games to focus on less combat. Really? I must be misremembering it. I thought she said "If I had my way, there'd be a little button that said 'skip combat'..." And all the puppies in the world were killed. Or some bullshit. Will stand to be corrected, of course - I just thought it was even less confrontational than wanting less focus on combat.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 4, 2017 5:32:26 GMT
Well, either way, some gamers reacted in the most disgusting way possible so we do have a toxicity problem.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 4, 2017 5:43:49 GMT
Well, that is certainly true enough.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 7, 2017 20:14:19 GMT
It would something to talk about if some gamers didn't send her death threats and mocked her weight.
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Post by SofaJockey on Oct 7, 2017 20:17:56 GMT
I have some sympathy for content creators who feel harassed. It's so hard to remain detached when some people are so personally aggressive online. I saw some posters today writing that developers should be captured and killed by terrorists because of some issue over microtransactions. Anonymity and 'free speech' seems to encourage some to say the most hideous things in public without consequence.
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Post by SofaJockey on Oct 7, 2017 22:35:49 GMT
The problem is that feelings are in many cases highly subjective. I'm more concerned with the kind of "solutions" the political correctness brigade has in mind to these issues, than with an overgrown child with a big mouth. Very true, finding the balance between having as free an expression of views as possible while curtailing personal abuse is a subjective and tricky call to make. Many forums, particularly those corporately sponsored, go beyond simply dealing with abuse and start to curtail 'difficult feedback' to their company. That leaves many of those official forums poorly subscribed to and lifeless. In BioWare's favor, even in the heart of the ME3 endings furore, the official forums did allow most criticism to be expressed, even if held in carefully controlled 'sink' threads.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 0:09:28 GMT
Imo, video game developers get quite a lot of things from the use of a forum. Like... they can engage with their players, get feedback, get ideas of what players want to see in future games, information on balancing/tweaking multiplayer... There are lots of things they can do with lots of fresh perspectives. Having a community which would be described as toxic can put lots of that at risk. Like if a community was particularly passionate in their feelings they might try to drown out or silence opposing viewpoints about the game, making real feedback... nonexistent. People giving actual constructive feedback could be quite easily drowned in a sea of people shouting about how much they hated the game, for example. If suggestions by your community just become hundreds of stupid troll threads, again... suggestions for future games become nonexistent But also, there are some games which are like known for toxic communities. Bad reputations can hurt games (especially multiplayer ones) and at the very least affect whether people register and start posting things like feedback and suggestions. Imo, it becomes a question of whether a forum is a positive thing for a developer to have, and not about freedom of speech. Like... do they gain anything from it??? A toxic community generally makes it lean closer to "No" than yes. If the feedback they get is all angry people shouting, if the suggestions for future games they receive are all stupid and if the community is hella bad and needs to be heavily moderated to keep things even somewhere close to reasonable then why is a game developer going to keep spending money on supporting it??? It would be like paying rent for a house with no roof, completely unfit for purpose haha I think things like this are just going to cause a huge space between gamers and game developers. Because some game developers have been threatened and made to feel unsafe in their own home, they wont risk communicating with their fanbase in the same way that they might have done in the past. It sucks, but... *shrug* Id rather the developers be happy and keep making awesome games
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Post by fchopin on Oct 8, 2017 4:42:13 GMT
Closing down the BioWare forums had nothing to do with toxicity.
Most of the problems were by supposed to be Bioware crazy fans that attacked anyone who said anything negative about a Bioware game and remember this from the old Bioware forums that we used to talk about ME1.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 12:30:40 GMT
Closing down the BioWare forums had nothing to do with toxicity. Most of the problems were by supposed to be Bioware crazy fans that attacked anyone who said anything negative about a Bioware game and remember this from the old Bioware forums that we used to talk about ME1. The attacks came from both sides of the fence... to say that most of the problems resided with just the one side is hugely biased and unfair. It takes two to tango. Bioware stated quite clearly why they closed the forum... it was because their staff were increasingly unwilling to come to the forum and enter into discussions with the fans. Their staff were feeling stressed out by the forums and expectations that they "should" participate... so the company took a step to try to lower the "on the job stress" for their staff. Keeping job stresses down is an expectation placed on companies by their health care insurers and there were indications of the company incurring a medical cost in the form of therapy (as revealed by Flynn during a public interview shortly before the forums were shut down (and I don't think this was a coincidence). Add in other factors like the corporate cost of maintaining a forum and the increased usage of other media by fans in general, and the decision was made... for better or worse. The good people here responded by opening and maintaining a forum for those fans who preferred to continue to use that type of media. Lots of other great fans worked very hard to transfer essential data from the old site. Even some of the staff were frequenting this site and engaging with fans here. Then, with the release of ME:A, this place turned toxic... many of the old regular fans have left (or are hiding out in private message threads), the staff left and then were released and aren't part of the company, and only a couple of mods (like sofa) are still here... trying to make something good of this place again. BTW, this is a great article sofa!
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Post by SofaJockey on Oct 8, 2017 13:40:11 GMT
BTW, this is a great article sofa! Very kind. I find forum mechanics to be fascinating, as forum activity has such a typical cycle. From an underlying 4,000 daily visitors 'between games' it builds a hype-train running up to the game, peaks at launch with around 20,000 daily visitors, then visitors fall off as people explore the game, move on, come back for DLC (if there is any) until the forum settles back into hiatus until the next game. I've watched exactly this cycle for ME3, DAI and most recently MEA. The 3 months pre-launch is probably my favorite, though there is a relaxed comfort to found in the hiatus periods when only the most enthusiastic (and cynical) regulars are dropping in.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 13:52:35 GMT
BTW, this is a great article sofa! Very kind. I find forum mechanics to be fascinating, as forum activity has such a typical cycle. From an underlying 4,000 daily visitors 'between games' it builds a hype-train running up to the game, peaks at launch with around 20,000 daily visitors, then visitors fall off as people explore the game, move on, come back for DLC (if there is any) until the forum settles back into hiatus until the next game. I've watched exactly this cycle for ME3, DAI and most recently MEA. The 3 months pre-launch is probably my favorite, though there is a relaxed comfort to found in the hiatus periods when only the most enthusiastic (and cynical) regulars are dropping in. I don't know as it can be said that this forum has actually gone through one complete cycle yet though because it was being set up during the pre-launch period of ME:A and the bulk of fans who made the journey over were the "worker" variety... interested in getting things set up and rolling. Most of the controversial discussions started up closer to ME:A's launch as the people who tended towards those sorts of debates didn't carry that forward from BSN Prime immediately (perhaps joining later or perhaps lurking, you would know better than I). I'm not sure we can even say that much about ME:A has resulted in a "normal cycle" since a lot about it's launch/quality, etc. has been unusual for Bioware. Right now, what I'm seeing is that many of the old regulars here are just no longer posting anything and many of those have expressed frustration with other posters just prior to stopping their postings. We'll just have to see whether many of those fans come back to active posting as the "hype-train" phase for DA4 really starts to roll.
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Post by SofaJockey on Oct 8, 2017 13:55:56 GMT
We'll just have to see whether many of those fans come back to active posting as the "hype-train" phase for DA4 really starts to roll. And complicating matters is that Anthem is likely to divide the old player-base as well as attract new players.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 14:13:08 GMT
We'll just have to see whether many of those fans come back to active posting as the "hype-train" phase for DA4 really starts to roll. And complicating matters is that Anthem is likely to divide the old player-base as well as attract new players. Very true. Anthem is something far removed from the other games Bioware has historically done. Question: Are there any thoughts yet towards building a subforum for Anthem? NVM - I just scrolled down now far enough to see that there is already one started.
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Post by SofaJockey on Oct 8, 2017 14:29:16 GMT
NVM - I just scrolled down now far enough to see that there is already one started. Yep, it's just sitting there for the moment. Once Anthem trailers and marketing ramp up in the Spring of 2018, I'll expect that the sub-forums will swizzle round in priority: - Anthem
- Dragon Age
- Mass Effect
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 16:40:36 GMT
NVM - I just scrolled down now far enough to see that there is already one started. Yep, it's just sitting there for the moment. Once Anthem trailers and marketing ramp up in the Spring of 2018, I'll expect that the sub-forums will swizzle round in priority: - Anthem
- Dragon Age
- Mass Effect
Seems like a logical step for the forum to take.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 11, 2017 6:18:22 GMT
It would something to talk about if some gamers didn't send her death threats and mocked her weight. "Mocked her weight", and?... I mean, why is it only a problem when it's a "gamer" that's doing the mocking?
Why is it okay for the gaming "media" to paint with a broad brush "gamers" (as if there is a singular faction of "gamers") as monster-race of basement-dwelling troglodytes? And yes, people get mocked on the internet, for a variety of reasons, some justified, some not, that's part and parcel of free expression.
As for threats, by all means, if someone broke the law, arrest them.
Some people kill other people, you know, some even eat them. Others perform a large number of other nasty acts. If they break the law, they pay the price. This has nothing to do with normal people that play games, even if they strongly disagree with your design philosophy or political opinions, and even if they mock you for it.
I agree that the media often goes to great lengths to demonize gamers, but sometimes there are some gamers who go way too far with their emotions. I do believe that developers and gamers need to examine themselves and try to conduct proper discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 18:25:29 GMT
Im just gonna speak my mind here... Trying to punish, intimidate or otherwise harass game developers for doing, saying or making something they might disagree with or dislike isnt the same as freedom of speech. Its more... well... the opposite And yet, you never see anyone complaining about that that's not a supposed "gamer" themselves, and when you do, they are immediately painted as "gamergate" and "harasser".
... seriously??? Do you actually believe that...??? Im not saying this in a bad way but more of a curious/confused one... did you actually read that before posting it???
I am a "gamer", I play games. I disagree with how some people and the media demonize gamers (and games for that matter)... I could quite easily say that to anyone without being labelled as a harasser or as gamergate. Like, theres no way Id word that which would cause anyone to paint me as anything, its a complete impossibility. And I wont be the only one, millions and millions of people could say the same kind of things and wouldnt be thought of as gamergate or a harasser... so im generally like "Huh?"
I understand youre passionate about stuff like this, I know you think that people speaking their mind get called all kinds of things by people, but I think you might be taking it a bit too far... if you actually believe what you just said im kinda worried for you
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 20:35:17 GMT
Im just gonna speak my mind here... Trying to punish, intimidate or otherwise harass game developers for doing, saying or making something they might disagree with or dislike isnt the same as freedom of speech. Its more... well... the opposite
... seriously??? Do you actually believe that...??? Im not saying this in a bad way but more of a curious/confused one... did you actually read that before posting it???
I am a "gamer", I play games. I disagree with how some people and the media demonize gamers (and games for that matter)... I could quite easily say that to anyone without being labelled as a harasser or as gamergate. Like, theres no way Id word that which would cause anyone to paint me as anything, its a complete impossibility. And I wont be the only one, millions and millions of people could say the same kind of things and wouldnt be thought of as gamergate or a harasser... so im generally like "Huh?"
I understand youre passionate about stuff like this, I know you think that people speaking their mind get called all kinds of things by people, but I think you might be taking it a bit too far... if you actually believe what you just said im kinda worried for you
In regards to the first part, clearly you don't understand the meaning of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech means that everyone can say whatever they want, developers, fans, haters, fanboys, gaming "journalists", etc. And they are allowed to say whatever they want even if what they say makes others uncomfortable, *especially* then, because if you say something completely milk-toast and inoffensive, well, you don't need a special right to defend that.
There are exceptions of course, and the exact definitions of those change from place to place. Personally I'd say that unless you call to kill someone, you should be largely free to say whatever you want.
In essence, when a society starts to define what people are allowed to say and what not, especially when more and more things are considered "politically incorrect", you have a problem. Why do you have a problem? Because such initiative are inherently illiberal and anti-democratic.
And yes, I definitely think that (no need to "worry" for me).
And I wasn't referring to individuals on internet forums, I was more referring to journalists, youtubers, and other "influencers". And I say this precisely because I'm aware of what's going on in this area, likely more than you. You are more likely to see an article by a "gaming journalist" ranting about "gamers" and how they are "dead", then you are to see an article about the opposite, and how gamers are hardly as toxic as the screechers would like to describe them.
My point was that punishing, intimidating or harassing people that do things you dont like or disagree with arent the actions of people who support freedom of speech. I already know/agree with what you said, so sorry for the poor wording
As for the second thing... I am quite worried for you. As I said, I think you might be exaggerating things... Im not denying that there are people who give labels to people unnecessarily, but what you said for sure isnt true.
I know what you meant though, but I could still tell them the same thing without being labelled, as could basically anyone... there might be more of one side vs the other but thats because there are more people who see the bad in others rather than the good, idk why. Maybe they had a poor experience with some gamers in the past. But being painted as gamergate and a harasser for complaining about the way gamers are demonized just isnt reality, not without some pretty serious other things contributing to it first.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 22:59:47 GMT
My point was that punishing, intimidating or harassing people that do things you dont like or disagree with arent the actions of people who support freedom of speech. I already know/agree with what you said, so sorry for the poor wording
As for the second thing... I am quite worried for you. As I said, I think you might be exaggerating things... Im not denying that there are people who give labels to people unnecessarily, but what you said for sure isnt true.
I know what you meant though, but I could still tell them the same thing without being labelled, as could basically anyone... there might be more of one side vs the other but thats because there are more people who see the bad in others rather than the good, idk why. Maybe they had a poor experience with some gamers in the past. But being painted as gamergate and a harasser for complaining about the way gamers are demonized just isnt reality, not without some pretty serious other things contributing to it first.
The issue seems to be one of definitions, "punishing, intimidating, or harassing" is somewhat vague.
"Punishing"? I'm not clear on what that means. Likewise, "harassment" is a term that's used very often these days, and can mean practically anything, including something as innocuous as sending a tweet that disagrees with the one who's supposedly being "harassed".
Intimidating? Also a bit vague. If it's something like: "I know where you live and I'm going to kill you", I'd assume that this is actually a crime in many places, and therefore should be reported to the relevant authorities. Otherwise, posting things which aren't at worst polite disagreement, isn't "intimidation", or at least not something that warrants abolishment of freedom of speech.
The knee-jerk reaction of many among the modern-progressive side of the political spectrum is to define anything that's not politically-correct as "harassment" etc. In essence, the attempt is to define morality and then enforce it on everyone else.
And specifically in regards to the issue being discussed, mocking someone on the internet is obviously not the nice or polite thing to do (although, sometimes it's definitely the appropriate reaction), but it also isn't something that should be grounds for complete censorship, etc.
It's one thing when a specific forum bans personal attacks, and quite another when giant corporations that have practically a monopoly on virtual public domain enforce censorship according to the subjective morality I mentioned earlier. It's certainly not the same thing when people are using "harassment" as an automatic defense that enables them to completely disregard any criticism.
I could provide actual examples, but this isn't the topic of this thread. Suffice to say that I disagree.
I suppose the fact that you assume that if someone was demonized it's probably somewhat justified due to "some pretty serious other things contributing to it first", merely speaks to your bias on the subject, I mean, we are not even talking on something specific right now, so why would you make that assumption? Because those that tend to write those articles can do no wrong?
Erm... if you want definitions, try Google??? Google is your friend Its also evil, but its your friend for definitions
Im not talking about what other people are doing with the words, just fyi... I dont really care what theyre doing with them. My words are my own
I think you might be mistaking me saying "people who do xyz arent interested in freedom of speech" for "people who do xyz arent interested in freedom of speech so censorship", or at least thats the impression im getting... im just saying the entire conversation becomes stupid and pointless, thats all. Like "developers and social media people want to take away freedom of speech! From people who use bullying tactics on social media to try and take away freedom of speech/creative expression from the developers!" its all just stupid imo. It makes the discussion pointless.
Ill admit I have a bias, I like to see the good in people But im not the only one with a bias, you know??? Considering youve spent this thread using it as another outlet for your political opinions and complained about political things you dont like And im more worried that your bias than mine... which might in itself be a bias... hm. BUT the point is, I think your views on things might be getting in the way a little. Im not claiming that all people who write articles can do no wrong, nothing even close. There will be bad game journalists, just like there will be always bad gamers. As a general rule though, I can disagree with people without being called names, and often do. I could say to a game journalist that there are lovely people in gaming, because ive met them. I could tell them how people ive met through gaming have changed my life in pretty serious ways, and that the media unfairly demonizes them without being painted as a part of gamergate, or a harasser. I could say those things without being painted as anything like that. So my next question would be "ok, so what are the people being called those things doing wrong??? Whats happening???" It could, and can be a case of there being a bad game journalist. BUT people kind of usually possess like some way of logical thinking even though it can be strange at times. Theres NO WAY someone would go, "Hm, theyve told me some of their really nice experiences playing games and being part of a community and that there are some really lovely people you can meet through playing games... GAMERGATE!" Theres just no logic there, no sense whatsoever. Theres no logical connection between the two. And its easy (too easy) to say "but they have no logic! Theyre all crazy people who have victim complexes!" but that isnt true either. People are the "good guys" of their own stories. Everything they do makes sense to THEM. So not only would I be looking at the game journalist and considering the fact that they could be just a stupid person, Id be looking at the person who is leaping to the defense of gamers too, and wondering how on earth they reached that conclusion about them. What was it they did??? How did they bridge the gap between being told some nice things about gamers to considering them to be the worst kind of gamer??? Did they ACTUALLY say that not all gamers are bad and that the media often demonizes them unfairly, or did they say something else??? Are they REALLY a random/innocent person who meant well???
All things that have to be considered before assigning blame. Both sides. *shrug*
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Post by SofaJockey on Oct 13, 2017 21:24:59 GMT
Truly I'd like to see the quality of 'customer relations' improve in game publishing.
Not sure what the 'cost' of a poor relationship with the player base is, but it must be significant, surely...
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 16, 2017 11:57:32 GMT
Lol, the first amendment only guarantees that your speech won't be censored or restrained by the government. Even then, not all forms of speech are protected, and the concept only applies in the USA anyway. It doesn't protect you from the consequences of being a dickhead on a privately-owned forum or other forms of social media.
Toxicity and harassment are perfectly valid reasons for developers to close down their fan/feedback forums. They aren't under any obligation to maintain them in the first place. Even if the community is mostly nice (which OG BSN was definitely not).
That said I highly doubt that "toxicity" was the actual reason, so much as the fact that maintaining an online community costs time and money. Why waste resources on the upkeep for a forum when Twitter and similar services provide a free platform for the sharing of information as it is? Not having to deal with jerks is just the icing on the cake.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 16, 2017 12:00:31 GMT
And for fuck's sake, can we please leave Jennifer Hepler the fuck alone?
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