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Post by Transcended One on Oct 7, 2017 18:28:42 GMT
Well, that's kind of your opinion. But I'll bite: Why do you think it's bad? If I know Artifice (don't quote me on it, because in all honesty, I really don't), I believe that it's well within her sense of humor to say that ST:D is bad. ST:D. Gettit? In retrospect, it's an unfortunate acronym. Forgot about that one again. English is not my native language so some abbreviations aren't as obvious for me (but sometimes it works the other way around just the same). So in that case, Lady Artifice, it seems you were speaking from personal experience. Would you mind sharing it with the rest of us?
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Post by mugwump on Oct 7, 2017 20:34:53 GMT
I enjoyed Discovery well enough.
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Post by Sweet FA on Oct 8, 2017 0:22:10 GMT
This is pretty similar to my personal fantasy episode "The Crusher Solution"..........
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 18:41:36 GMT
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 9, 2017 2:33:23 GMT
I've always preferred Doctor Bashir and the EMH. McCoy is a legend, but if I had to have one Doctor, I'd want one who has the benefit of having 100 years of medical knowledge over the 23rd century, and is also either a hologram (incapable of tiring/human physical errors) or a genetically enhanced augment with far-superior hand-eye coordination and stamina. Phlox is a bit of a dark horse so far as the Doctor's go, but he's never struck me as particularly charismatic.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 9, 2017 3:17:41 GMT
So far as my dream crew goes (not including Discovery, since we're only still learning about these characters (and it's looking like they're not getting as much development so as to focus on Michael)), I'd have to say... well let's list them first:
The Captains: Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Archer... I'm nixing Archer at the get-go. If we're on a starship, I'll nix Sisko. Not that I don't love him, but he's more suited to the type of situation you'd get from the fixed location of DS9. Janeway when she's on the ball is on the same level as Kirk or Picard, but she's not as consistent as they are - given a lot of her decisions, I'd be wondering how she'd go about something. It really comes down to what you'd expect to be facing - Kirk is more of the bold explorer who brings charisma to the table. Picard is the gentlemanly diplomat, and more intelligent than Kirk. I'd say they're both exemplary of their respective Starfleet era's, but in a pinch... Picard, probably.
The First Officers: Spock, Riker, Kira, Chakotay, or T'Pol... once again, I'm nixing Enterprise. Also, Kira is too much of a wild card. Chakotay is highly capable, but there's little to him that would make him really stand out beyond his humanity (though that works in his favor as well.) Spock is experienced and highly skilled, but I feel he'd be better suited for the Sciences rather than Command. Riker it is for me - he led the Enterprise-D through arguably its darkest hour (the Borg invasion), he's specifically on track as a Command officer, and he's stated numerous times to have his own command waiting for him whenever he chooses.
The Science Officers: Spock (again), Data, Jadzia Dax... Harry Kim, I guess? Maybe Seven of Nine? Voyager never really had a 'dedicated' science officer, and T'Pol... T'Pol, once more is out. I suppose a case could be made for Voyager having several different characters fulfilling the role of science officer over different points, but since they technically don't have a dedicated Chief Science Officer, I'm going to disqualify them all as well, which leaves Spock, Data, and Dax, and this one is a hard one. I'm going to eliminate Jadzia, because we never really see her really, really doing her job (she's probably the most versatile of all the science officers given her hundreds of years of experience.) Spock and Data, Spock and Data... tough call. I'll give it to Spock for the sake of tradition.
The Doctors: McCoy, Crusher, Bashir, The EMH, and Phlox - I already stated Phlox is out. Dr. Crusher is a severely underutilized character, but she's also very bland. She's very good, and very experienced, but I just don't see her as being that huge of a standout. Dr. McCoy on the other hand is a legend, but when it comes to Medicine, I want absolute cutting edge, and the 23rd century just doesn't cut it. That leaves you with the EMH or Dr. Bashir, which is a tough call. Dr. Bashir is brilliant, graduated 2nd in his class (intentionally missing out on the top spot), while the EMH has 47 separate engrams from legendary physicians in a variety of fields, as well as all medical knowledge... of course, Doctor Bashir has that too, and he's just as able to adapt, research, and perform as well as the Doctor. He has a better bedside manner... I'm going with Dr. Bashir.
The Security Chiefs: Chekov, Worf, Odo, Tuvok, and Reed. This is one of the more difficult choices, because Security is a separate kind of job. First, I'm eliminating Chekov, simply due to his youth and inexperience (he gets better, but he never really grows out of his butt-monkey status.) Then Reed. Reed's good, excellent in fact, but there's just not that same level of dedication to craft or skill as the others have. Honestly, as far as Worf, Odo, and Tuvok go, you could throw a dart at each and pick one. I'll go with Tuvok, because I love Vulcans, but Odo and Worf are easily just as good choices. Of course, Worf gets beaten a lot, but still...
The Engineers: Scotty, La Forge, O'Brien, Torres, and Tucker... Another hard one - the Engineer, by definition, has to be a miracle worker and utterly expertly brilliant at their craft, and each of them is just that and more. I'll eliminate Torres simply due to her personality (which isn't bad by Voyager's end, but she's just not as personable or affable as the others.) Scotty and La Forge (and Torres) are a different type of engineer from O'Brien and Tucker - they're definitely more of the miracle worker types who can pull rabbits out of hats, while O'Brien is more of the mechanic type who can fix anything with enough time, and Tucker is more of an engineer in the architectural/design area. I'd have to say either La Forge or O'Brien, preferably both, given their experience and separate but complementary functions.
The Operations Chiefs: Chekov?, Worf... Worf, Harry Kim, and Reed.... Worf, it goes without saying.
The Helmsman: Sulu, Wesley Crusher, Jadzia Dax, Tom Paris, and Mayweather... Let's just cut Crusher out now. He's not 'bad', but he's not as much a wunderkind as the show would have us believe. As for the others... Mayweather is good, but he's not 'outstanding' good in the same level as Paris or Sulu. Dax is again out, simply because the Defiant seems to have everyone acting as helmsman at some point. Plus, I do wonder why your ostensible science officer is the one manning the Conn. Sulu strikes me as more of the great pilot and adaptable, but I think Paris is really the only true 'pilot' ever really put into Trek - the guy can fly anything and do it beautifully, and he's dedicated to his craft, and is a prodigy at it. I'm going with Tom Paris.
The Counselor/Auxiliary/Communications officer: Uhura, Troi, Ezri Dax, Kes, Neelix... Porthos, I'll go with Porthos: First things first, Porthos, you're adorable, but you're a Beagle. No dogs allowed. Next... Uhura is great for languages, but redundant by the 24th century and universal translators. Plus, she can't well read minds like Troi can, and her other skills are never really portrayed in the series. Troi is a great counselor, and she's proven herself adaptable (and her telepathy is useful when it doesn't give her a breakdown), but that's her role. Ezri is more adaptable, and she has the Dax symbiont (meaning she could logically hold a bunch of other functions of use.) On the other hand, she was never really trained to hold a symbiont... she'd need a lot of adjustment and counseling herself, just to keep her memories up. That said, when she finds herself and clicks, it'd be no discussion, Ezri would be up near the top of the Captain's list with time. Kes is... a great MA for the Doctor. Her psychic/psionic abilities make her a liability, and she's got a pretty short lifespan, so... Bye Kes. Lastly, Neelix... Probably the best auxiliary crewman to do jobs you don't even know you needed doing, but alas, has no actual training and his applicable skills are kind of meh. So, Ezri Dax for this category - once she gets a hold of herself, she'll be brilliant at whatever she wants.
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Post by Sweet FA on Oct 9, 2017 7:57:04 GMT
Personally, I think you cannot fairly compare core TOS command (triumvarite) with any other Star Trek series crewmembers, especially the captaincy. Their characters were specifically written and tightly constructed (which was further reinforced as the show progressed) as a three headed entity, a unit, the sum was greater than the parts. What was the idea? to split one human personality into three parts, Kirk (Ethos), Spock (Logos) and McCoy (Pathos) so that the internal command struggles of leadership, ethics and decision making could be externally discussed, debated and laid bare for dramatic effect. You would not be comparing like with like, it's more complicated and nuanced than that.
TOS probably had the most democratic and free speaking command structure of all Star Trek. Kirk was challenged, contradicted and sometimes even directly opposed by his senior officers on numerous occassions, this was no ship of yes men. So I would exclude these three from direct comparison as they are simply indivisable from each other. This does not apply to the other crews to the same extent. I believe the other Captains had greater freedom of action in terms of strategic and ethical decision making and were more individual in nature.
Usually TOS was more informal and consensual (outside of tactics) whereas in the other series no matter how friendly or respectful the Captain was with their senior officers there was always a demarcation and a stronger more formal/hierarchial military structure. The Captain in successor series would also cut a more lonely solitary figure and be more likely to become withdrawn and isolated. Interestingly in TOS one of the key things the Triumvarite had in common was their individual sense of loneliness (referred to on several occassions about all three throughout TOS) which they countered by creating an almost family like unit or fellowship. It's a far more intimate command structure which really doesn't lend itself well to later comparison with other crews.
I've never been a great one for direct individual crew comparisons anyway.
Picard: the diplomat, Sisko: warrior/messiah, Janeway: Odysseus Archer: ?.
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Post by mousestalker on Oct 9, 2017 12:07:46 GMT
Any discussions of great engineers that do not include Tech Sgt Kwan are prima facie invalid. The man was a great team builder and team leader. When you're dealing with a problem would you rather have one mighty brain working on it or a host of mighty brains?
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 9, 2017 12:25:15 GMT
Any discussions of great engineers that do not include Tech Sgt Kwan are prima facie invalid. The man was a great team builder and team leader. When you're dealing with a problem would you rather have one mighty brain working on it or a host of mighty brains? I'd rather have an engineer that was in Star Trek. If I want a host of mighty brains, I'll just plug Seven back into the Borg.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 9, 2017 19:40:32 GMT
One thing I think is very disingenuous about the portrayal of the Klingons in Discovery is just how... 'othered' they are. I mean, one fan at NYCC brought up a very valid point when he said that 1) the Klingons in Discovery are more savage, while 2) looking the most 'African.' And the producer tries to work around this by talking about how the Klingons will be developed and not be one dimensional like in other series...
Which they aren't (look at DS9, TNG, VOY, and Star Trek: VI to see how wrong this idiot is.) The comments from one of the head showrunners for Discovery has me worried now about how they can handle the lore - if they can't get Klingons right by completely disregarding their development in prior series, how the hell can they get anything else right?
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Post by colfoley on Oct 9, 2017 19:58:05 GMT
One thing I think is very disingenuous about the portrayal of the Klingons in Discovery is just how... 'othered' they are. I mean, one fan at NYCC brought up a very valid point when he said that 1) the Klingons in Discovery are more savage, while 2) looking the most 'African.' And the producer tries to work around this by talking about how the Klingons will be developed and not be one dimensional like in other series... Which they aren't (look at DS9, TNG, VOY, and Star Trek: VI to see how wrong this idiot is.) The comments from one of the head showrunners for Discovery has me worried now about how they can handle the lore - if they can't get Klingons right by completely disregarding their development in prior series, how the hell can they get anything else right? i actually am very amused that you call these Klingons 'african'. Unless of course you mean South Africa. Anyways i came to say that this show is getting better and better with each episode. Great writing. Terrific pay offs. And this show seems to delight in introducing a potential weakness for its story telling and then turning it into a strenghth. The last episode in particular convinced me they could have something really special on their hands. Reminds me a lot of late DS 9.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 9, 2017 20:07:15 GMT
One thing I think is very disingenuous about the portrayal of the Klingons in Discovery is just how... 'othered' they are. I mean, one fan at NYCC brought up a very valid point when he said that 1) the Klingons in Discovery are more savage, while 2) looking the most 'African.' And the producer tries to work around this by talking about how the Klingons will be developed and not be one dimensional like in other series... Which they aren't (look at DS9, TNG, VOY, and Star Trek: VI to see how wrong this idiot is.) The comments from one of the head showrunners for Discovery has me worried now about how they can handle the lore - if they can't get Klingons right by completely disregarding their development in prior series, how the hell can they get anything else right? i actually am very amused that you call these Klingons 'african'. Unless of course you mean South Africa. Anyways i came to say that this show is getting better and better with each episode. Great writing. Terrific pay offs. And this show seems to delight in introducing a potential weakness for its story telling and then turning it into a strenghth. The last episode in particular convinced me they could have something really special on their hands. Reminds me a lot of late DS 9. Not my words, mate. io9.gizmodo.com/alex-kurtzman-explains-star-trek-discoverys-klingons-1819250425
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Post by Transcended One on Oct 9, 2017 20:10:08 GMT
The fourth episode is pretty interesting indeed. I'm curious where this Klingon plotline goes. And speaking of which: for savages they seem to be pretty clever to attack this planet which holds half of the feds' dilithium production... More clever than a certain crewmember who got herself killed just by being stupid.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 9, 2017 20:11:55 GMT
... cleaver? You mean clever, ah.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 9, 2017 20:13:16 GMT
i actually am very amused that you call these Klingons 'african'. Unless of course you mean South Africa. Anyways i came to say that this show is getting better and better with each episode. Great writing. Terrific pay offs. And this show seems to delight in introducing a potential weakness for its story telling and then turning it into a strenghth. The last episode in particular convinced me they could have something really special on their hands. Reminds me a lot of late DS 9. Not my words, mate. io9.gizmodo.com/alex-kurtzman-explains-star-trek-discoverys-klingons-1819250425honestly that argument is just silly. Granted it seems that a lot of the criticisms of the show are but this one strikes me as petty. Of course the Klingons have gone backwards its set in a time where Klingons didn't know the value of cooperation.
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Post by Transcended One on Oct 9, 2017 20:17:46 GMT
... cleaver? You mean clever, ah. No I meant cleavage.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 9, 2017 21:01:34 GMT
honestly that argument is just silly. Granted it seems that a lot of the criticisms of the show are but this one strikes me as petty. Of course the Klingons have gone backwards its set in a time where Klingons didn't know the value of cooperation. It's not that far back in time. IMO, the showrunner discussed sounds like he's trying to reinvent the wheel as far as the Klingons are concerned.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 9, 2017 21:29:53 GMT
honestly that argument is just silly. Granted it seems that a lot of the criticisms of the show are but this one strikes me as petty. Of course the Klingons have gone backwards its set in a time where Klingons didn't know the value of cooperation. It's not that far back in time. IMO, the showrunner discussed sounds like he's trying to reinvent the wheel as far as the Klingons are concerned. aside from the aesthetic differences and like one or two other quibbles i find the Klingons to be pretty Klingon.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 11:51:37 GMT
Episode 4: NIiCE!
I loved that it had a mix of traditional strar Treck themes, like a last minute ingenious engineering solution and the cavalry rolling in, but using the unethical means. Also using those records to manipulate the crew rather than have a sincere reaction to them -well played! The Klingon plot is becoming increasingly complicated as well. I am of course worried that the journey to the matriarchs will spawn force the usual "outrage" on the net, but the characters are becoming fleshed out. I think they also sped up the dialogue a bit, but I dunno, I still want English instead. But now they'll have to stick to their guns, since they persisted that long.
I am starting to feverently hope that my loving the show does not spell its doom, because that's how it always goes, me & my weird tastes.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 10, 2017 15:35:37 GMT
It's not that far back in time. IMO, the showrunner discussed sounds like he's trying to reinvent the wheel as far as the Klingons are concerned. aside from the aesthetic differences and like one or two other quibbles i find the Klingons to be pretty Klingon. I don't, but I'm giving that aspect the benefit of the doubt since the writers state that they're going somewhere with it. More importantly, the Klingon plot is just not one that I can get invested in. Part of the reason is that it seems like the only Klingons we're getting are this old cult of T'Kuvma and his successors.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 14, 2017 1:17:12 GMT
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 15, 2017 2:09:54 GMT
It's interesting, but I can't help but feel they're trying to push too much of it onto tying into TOS and ENT. It's already kind of irritating enough that Spock/Sarek have this as-yet-never-before-mentioned foster sister/daughter. Long-winded rant on the nature of DIS being retroactively important to the happenings of TOS incoming...: At least I have Harry Mudd to look forward to - it'll be a relief to know that with his appearance, DIS won't take itself too seriously. It wouldn't be a proper Star Trek series without at least a few episodes of lightweight absurdity and humor. That's something that I'm suspicious about regarding this new series. I just realized we're probably going to have the Enterprise appear at some point... with Captain Pike: it's not a matter of if, but when. I seriously hope they don't include Spock in that episode. I would rather they didn't portray any of the main cast of TOS. It's jarring to think how many possible guest characters or monsters or what not from TOS that they'll include into DIS. Not only do I not believe it will do TOS justice, but it will stifle DIS's own growth with constant "Look at this TOS-reference we're throwing in!" Let it be it's own show, and build its own identity. The last thing Discovery, TOS, or the franchise as a whole needs is for DIS to be the Star Trek version of ' Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.' It's a notional complaint for sure, but not exactly an irrational one given the franchises' nigh complete inability at the moment to move beyond the Kirk-era.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 16, 2017 1:20:20 GMT
I think another thing about Discovery and the Klingons is how difficult it is to get a feel for their 'alien-ness' and intimidation, given how we already know how their society will develop and turn out (since this is a Prime-verse series, everything is basically a foregone conclusion.)
Whatever else Kol or Voq or T'Kuvmah might accomplish, we still end up with Klingons like Worf and Martok in the future, and their depiction simply doesn't lend itself to the sort of... intimidation and malevolent ambience being built up by these Klingons.
Hell, we know that such wonderful Klingons like Kor, Kang, and Koloth are in the coming future from TOS.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 16, 2017 2:29:32 GMT
Finally, an episode of DIS that really feels like Star Trek. The Klingons act like Klingons, there's a good moral dilemma that is complex in how it's dealt (though predictable, albeit in a good way,) the cast gets a chance to really grow, and you get the feeling that the show will be somewhat serialized. And it doesn't focus on just Michael. Lorca gets a good bit of focus and background, Harry Mudd is deliciously craven, a new Klingon villainess is introduced (possibly?), and the aforementioned conflict is complex in its depiction (albeit predictable in its conclusion.) Saru gets to be more than just 'Burnham's former subordinate that has a grudge against her.'
Keep it up, DIS.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 14:48:18 GMT
#5 is tonight! Hope to be able to see it.
In re-runs, we watched the Little Green Men yesterday, I had so much fun at the comedy in it. My kiddo is too young to understand what is being parodied so she was really confused with everyone smoking, heh.
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