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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 23, 2017 0:21:21 GMT
Sadly the guy in that video makes a lot of sense. I doubt we'll see many SP-focused games from EA/Bioware. I wonder if even DA4 will be mostly SP. One thing I disagree with is blaming Anthem for changing Bioware. It's the other way around. Bioware changed, whether through EA pressure or just the realities of the current competitive AAA environment, and Anthem is one of the consequences of that change. Also, not mentioning DA4 at all, let alone as the exception to his "never see a traditional RPG ever again from Bioware", or at least claiming that it won't be instead of leaving it implied, loses credibility in my view. I dont follow your claim about new realities of the current competitive AAA environment. Horizon and TW3 had 0 MP component and yet wad a financial and critical hit. Cyberpunk 2077 will have a MP component but it is confirmed that first and foremost, CP2077 is a SP game. Then there are all the other games like Last of Us that may have a MO component but at the core is a SP game. So Im not seeing how Bioware, a dev known for their SP experiences would not be able to compete in this market.
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 23, 2017 0:32:29 GMT
Amusing as the wild speculation is, we should get some insight when BioWare drops the next packet of information about Anthem. Because I'm totally sure that the game economy will be one of the first questions journalists will ask.
Beyond that, anything concrete may be assuming too much.
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Post by mmoblitz on Nov 23, 2017 2:57:44 GMT
I disagree that MP was the reason for the changes to the skill system. That to me was due to people wanting to have a completely flexible class system for I saw those comments a lot after Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3. Now if you want to blame the removal of time dilation effects that is true for they couldn't implement those in multiplayer. To be perfectly honest I preferred the skill layouts that Andromeda's MP had over the single player system. I wouldn't say that I have an actual verification that this was the reason behind limiting skills to only 3 active at a time. But:
A. It makes sense to me that something like this was done to make gameplay similar, perhaps make MP less intimidating to some, and just "streamline" the whole thing.
B. One of the devs that visited here before ME:A was released talked a bit about this, and as I mentioned something about them changing the skill system to push people into MP and therefore expose them to MT, he responded by saying something regarding him not seeing the issue in making the design similar in order to make MP more accessible. (paraphrasing here) - I'd say that this was very likely one reason for it.
And well, personally this was an aspect of ME:A's gameplay that I detested. (not the open class system per se, more the limit on active skills)
I remember reading that some place as well, but can't remember where it was. It seems to me they tried to make SP/MP seamless for those who wanted to transition from SP to MP from within the game. It would make sense as well that they essentially use the same combat mechanics in both. I think if they weren't concerned about back-lash, they might have even made MP more intrusive. I had zero interest in MP and never even saw that portion of the game in my one PT. Though I wanted nothing to do with it, it still managed to have an impact on my SP experience.
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 23, 2017 3:10:58 GMT
Amusing as the wild speculation is, we should get some insight when BioWare drops the next packet of information about Anthem. Because I'm totally sure that the game economy will be one of the first questions journalists will ask. Beyond that, anything concrete may be assuming too much. They will be tightupped due to AMAs for a while, unfortunately
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 23, 2017 4:15:19 GMT
Amusing as the wild speculation is, we should get some insight when BioWare drops the next packet of information about Anthem. Because I'm totally sure that the game economy will be one of the first questions journalists will ask. Beyond that, anything concrete may be assuming too much. They will be tightupped due to AMAs for a while, unfortunately Not only that, EA likes to keep focus on their next big release so I doubt we will hear much until its much closer to launch. Personally I am to the point where I like it when developers don't say anything too far in advance for it just seems the internet base will then generate expectations on their own interpretation of what was said. Its like with Andromeda where BioWare devs made comments about the lines of dialogue being the most in any Mass Effect game. Of course it doesn't feel that way for they included all the alternate lines that you might not hear at all. So people would generate a thought there would be a lot more dialogue they would experience, but in reality it probably wasn't a lot more if not even less then in the past because of the paths dialogue can take. I also remember the whole "you will die" when talking about Insanity difficulty in Mass Effect 3 which in reality wasn't that much harder for me then the past games, expect for the defending the missiles on Priority: Earth even then it didn't take me a long time to get through that either.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 23, 2017 4:18:52 GMT
I disagree that MP was the reason for the changes to the skill system. That to me was due to people wanting to have a completely flexible class system for I saw those comments a lot after Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3. Now if you want to blame the removal of time dilation effects that is true for they couldn't implement those in multiplayer. To be perfectly honest I preferred the skill layouts that Andromeda's MP had over the single player system. I wouldn't say that I have an actual verification that this was the reason behind limiting skills to only 3 active at a time. But:
A. It makes sense to me that something like this was done to make gameplay similar, perhaps make MP less intimidating to some, and just "streamline" the whole thing.
B. One of the devs that visited here before ME:A was released talked a bit about this, and as I mentioned something about them changing the skill system to push people into MP and therefore expose them to MT, he responded by saying something regarding him not seeing the issue in making the design similar in order to make MP more accessible. (paraphrasing here) - I'd say that this was very likely one reason for it.
And well, personally this was an aspect of ME:A's gameplay that I detested. (not the open class system per se, more the limit on active skills)
No disagreement, but I always took that as the reason why they removed the ability wheel for players and not the three skill limit. I personally think it had more to do with needing to try and remove the "awesome button" and adding the ability to jump. I just think it has multiple reasons for why they do things all the time, at times I think there are groups of people for BioWare games use multiplayer as a boogie-man for everything they disliked about the game. I know personally I think having four skill slots would have been pretty close to what I did in the past for the other abilities at least before adding in the bonus power was four in Mass Effect 2 and 3.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 23, 2017 5:48:09 GMT
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Post by PillarBiter on Nov 23, 2017 7:42:09 GMT
Let's give it up for belgium, aye? My country sure can red tape the shit out of every little thing they encounter, but by jove, I hadn't a clue that one day our ridiculous politicians would be on our side.
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 23, 2017 9:29:37 GMT
Also, how would some publisher / dev be forced for publishing on a platform they didn't plan to distribute to? Well, we can play any movie on any DVD player device, no matter which company made it, so we should be able to steam any game on any console. They can stream Console games on PC with Playstation Now, so it should be possible to make games cross-compatible. Nobody makes movies that can only be played on a Sony DVD player! I am sure there is a fairly straightforward technological solution that would allow you to own a digital copy of a game that can be played on different devices if the industry was willing to do its homework. And, well, as painful as it is for my HZD prospects, the going forward basis is okay. But something has to be done. Homework is cost and you cannot force someone to cover cost they don't want to cover. If you don't want to buy a thing noone can force you either.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 23, 2017 16:28:57 GMT
I dont follow your claim about new realities of the current competitive AAA environment. Horizon and TW3 had 0 MP component and yet wad a financial and critical hit. Cyberpunk 2077 will have a MP component but it is confirmed that first and foremost, CP2077 is a SP game. Then there are all the other games like Last of Us that may have a MO component but at the core is a SP game. So Im not seeing how Bioware, a dev known for their SP experiences would not be able to compete in this market. You surprise me. So you believe that Bioware can make an SP-only game that is competitive with TW3? Some of your previous comments led me to believe otherwise. It's not just about MP. In fact, I'd say the real competitive pressure is to move into action-oriented games. We saw this with the evolution of gameplay in DA, particularly DAI. Action-oriented games sell more units than straight-up RPGs, by a lot (with TW3 a notable exception). The MP pressure, I think, is more about opening up opportunities for recurring revenue (MTX).
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 23, 2017 17:45:38 GMT
I dont follow your claim about new realities of the current competitive AAA environment. Horizon and TW3 had 0 MP component and yet wad a financial and critical hit. Cyberpunk 2077 will have a MP component but it is confirmed that first and foremost, CP2077 is a SP game. Then there are all the other games like Last of Us that may have a MO component but at the core is a SP game. So Im not seeing how Bioware, a dev known for their SP experiences would not be able to compete in this market. You surprise me. So you believe that Bioware can make an SP-only game that is competitive with TW3? Some of your previous comments led me to believe otherwise. It's not just about MP. In fact, I'd say the real competitive pressure is to move into action-oriented games. We saw this with the evolution of gameplay in DA, particularly DAI. Action-oriented games sell more units than straight-up RPGs, by a lot (with TW3 a notable exception). The MP pressure, I think, is more about opening up opportunities for recurring revenue (MTX). I believe they can be competitive with TW3 and Horizon if they [Bioware] stuck to their strenghts which is linear worlds. By going open world with DAI and MEA, they exposed themselves with their lame sidequest and dull worlds with little emergent gameplay. TW3 succeeded cause the open worlds had life and character to them. NPCs had fixed schedules in the same way Shenmue did years ago which made the world seem lifelike. In DAI and MEA, we got static worlds where NPCs just stand there all day like a pole. Also, the fact that both DAI and MEA didn't have day/night cycles OR dynamic weather. There will be AAA games this year that are RPGs or Action based and they may or may not have a MP component and they will be SP focused....and they will be a financial success. If you need MP to turn profit, it just means you fail at SP. MP should be there to stack money and add the cherry to the top. It should not be your main way to get profit. GTA5 would have turned profit without GTA online. Fallout 4, TW3, Horizon all turned profit without MP. Last of Us and Uncharted 3 turned profit because of SP, not MP. Most of the 2017 GOTY contenders are SP only games....so I do not see why MP is needed to succeed? Bioware could also do that, but they are driven by EA and EA is pushing for more of a MP focus in their games cause they want that MT/Loot Box money. But I dont want to drive the thread off topic so I will just end it there.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 23, 2017 19:16:11 GMT
You surprise me. So you believe that Bioware can make an SP-only game that is competitive with TW3? Some of your previous comments led me to believe otherwise. It's not just about MP. In fact, I'd say the real competitive pressure is to move into action-oriented games. We saw this with the evolution of gameplay in DA, particularly DAI. Action-oriented games sell more units than straight-up RPGs, by a lot (with TW3 a notable exception). The MP pressure, I think, is more about opening up opportunities for recurring revenue (MTX). I believe they can be competitive with TW3 and Horizon if they [Bioware] stuck to their strenghts which is linear worlds. By going open world with DAI and MEA, they exposed themselves with their lame sidequest and dull worlds with little emergent gameplay. TW3 succeeded cause the open worlds had life and character to them. NPCs had fixed schedules in the same way Shenmue did years ago which made the world seem lifelike. In DAI and MEA, we got static worlds where NPCs just stand there all day like a pole. Also, the fact that both DAI and MEA didn't have day/night cycles OR dynamic weather. There will be AAA games this year that are RPGs or Action based and they may or may not have a MP component and they will be SP focused....and they will be a financial success. If you need MP to turn profit, it just means you fail at SP. MP should be there to stack money and add the cherry to the top. It should not be your main way to get profit. GTA5 would have turned profit without GTA online. Fallout 4, TW3, Horizon all turned profit without MP. Last of Us and Uncharted 3 turned profit because of SP, not MP. Most of the 2017 GOTY contenders are SP only games....so I do not see why MP is needed to succeed? Bioware could also do that, but they are driven by EA and EA is pushing for more of a MP focus in their games cause they want that MT/Loot Box money. But I dont want to drive the thread off topic so I will just end it there. I get that is your view, but in reality there are a lot of people that want MP in their games and just because you see it as a money grab doesn't mean that was its intention from the start either. As far as your claim that all GOTY games are SP I disagree, I have been playing Super Mario Odyssey with two people so to me that defines it as MP game even if it is two people sharing control of Mario. How many SP only games have failed due to not having enough people buy the game? I am plenty sure there are quite a few. The darling game of the critics of major publisher Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice from the reports I have read have the game only breaking even which is pretty much where Andromeda is as well. So just making a good SP isn't always enough either to get enough copies sold. Even looking at developers like Obsidian or Inxile rely on now making crowd funded games for their games never sold well enough to provide enough revenue on their own. So I don't think that means making a good SP experience alone means the game will sell well enough.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 23, 2017 19:33:27 GMT
I believe they can be competitive with TW3 and Horizon if they [Bioware] stuck to their strenghts which is linear worlds. By going open world with DAI and MEA, they exposed themselves with their lame sidequest and dull worlds with little emergent gameplay. TW3 succeeded cause the open worlds had life and character to them. NPCs had fixed schedules in the same way Shenmue did years ago which made the world seem lifelike. In DAI and MEA, we got static worlds where NPCs just stand there all day like a pole. Also, the fact that both DAI and MEA didn't have day/night cycles OR dynamic weather. There will be AAA games this year that are RPGs or Action based and they may or may not have a MP component and they will be SP focused....and they will be a financial success. If you need MP to turn profit, it just means you fail at SP. MP should be there to stack money and add the cherry to the top. It should not be your main way to get profit. GTA5 would have turned profit without GTA online. Fallout 4, TW3, Horizon all turned profit without MP. Last of Us and Uncharted 3 turned profit because of SP, not MP. Most of the 2017 GOTY contenders are SP only games....so I do not see why MP is needed to succeed? Bioware could also do that, but they are driven by EA and EA is pushing for more of a MP focus in their games cause they want that MT/Loot Box money. But I dont want to drive the thread off topic so I will just end it there. How many SP only games have failed due to not having enough people buy the game? I am plenty sure there are quite a few. And how many MP focused games failed due to having enough people buy the game? Having MP in your game is not a stamp that the game will be a critical and fiancial success. How come Persona 5, Horizon, TW3, Nier Automata, and Breath of the Wild be successes without MP? Again, we are getting off topic here but my point is that EAware wants a focus on MP not for sales, but because they want that extra buck. Why make $20 million in profit when you can make $100 million in profit with lootboxes? And in what realm does lootboxes become more profitable....SP or MP?
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Post by Heimdall on Nov 23, 2017 20:03:30 GMT
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 23, 2017 22:03:03 GMT
How many SP only games have failed due to not having enough people buy the game? I am plenty sure there are quite a few. And how many MP focused games failed due to having enough people buy the game? Having MP in your game is not a stamp that the game will be a critical and fiancial success. How come Persona 5, Horizon, TW3, Nier Automata, and Breath of the Wild be successes without MP? I don't think anybody here argues that the game can't be a critical/financial success without MP. What they disagree with is an idea that adding or focusing on MP means that the title is a cash-grab, or that is only following trends. Bioware always liked multiplayer. Their very first game from more than 20 years ago had one. Baldur's Gate had one. Neverwinter Nights had one. They are demonstrably eager to add multiplayer to their games even without demand for it - it just so happens that now there's also a demand for it. Yes, because it's only EAware that is in the news for mts/lootboxes. Oh wait - didn't people begin smacking beloved Blizzard lately for starting the whole trend with super-popular Overwatch?
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 23, 2017 22:53:11 GMT
How many SP only games have failed due to not having enough people buy the game? I am plenty sure there are quite a few. And how many MP focused games failed due to having enough people buy the game? Having MP in your game is not a stamp that the game will be a critical and fiancial success. How come Persona 5, Horizon, TW3, Nier Automata, and Breath of the Wild be successes without MP? Again, we are getting off topic here but my point is that EAware wants a focus on MP not for sales, but because they want that extra buck. Why make $20 million in profit when you can make $100 million in profit with lootboxes? And in what realm does lootboxes become more profitable....SP or MP? I never meant that multiplayer would make the game automatically successful, just like being single player only doesn't necessary make it successful. Again people kept whining they wanted co-op, MP, or PvP added to the games and that is what we got. BioWare has a track record of giving every little group that asks for something and then adds it into the game. They even bowed down and made Ryder whiter option because people were complaining about that. Yes MP was added, yes there was lootboxes, but that doesn't mean that multiplayer was added for lootboxes. Besides at least with BioWare they continued to support MP by giving post launch content for a year for free with Mass Effect 3. Even with Andromeda they continued to add maps and characters to the game post launch. Which were supported by those lootboxes and didn't fragment the playerbase. I wouldn't know what it is more profitable because I don't have access to the financial information of the different publishers. I know Ubisoft has premium currency in single player and Shadow of War has lootboxes that impact single player. Just like Call of Duty: WW2 has a feature that allows you to watch other people open lootboxes.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 23, 2017 22:59:24 GMT
And how many MP focused games failed due to having enough people buy the game? Having MP in your game is not a stamp that the game will be a critical and fiancial success. How come Persona 5, Horizon, TW3, Nier Automata, and Breath of the Wild be successes without MP? I don't think anybody here argues that the game can't be a critical/financial success without MP. What they disagree with is an idea that adding or focusing on MP means that the title is a cash-grab, or that is only following trends. Bioware always liked multiplayer. Their very first game from more than 20 years ago had one. Baldur's Gate had one. Neverwinter Nights had one. They are demonstrably eager to add multiplayer to their games even without demand for it - it just so happens that now there's also a demand for it. Yes, because it's only EAware that is in the news for mts/lootboxes. Oh wait - didn't people begin smacking beloved Blizzard lately for starting the whole trend with super-popular Overwatch? I remember with Mass Effect 1 how much outrage that there wasn't MP (well how much for the time). Since how much MP BioWare had in their games. Now people use having multiplayer against them. It seems people are looking for a way to complain about BioWare for they are betraying their roots or if they go back that way they are just following trends. It really makes me wish BioWare would see that trend and act upon it and just ignore what people say they want in the game and just make the game they want even if it has or doesn't have MP. I am disappointed that very few news organizations covered what Blizzard did in China, but I guess covering the seediness of Blizzard doesn't bring as many clicks as when EA does something.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 23, 2017 23:39:36 GMT
And how many MP focused games failed due to having enough people buy the game? Having MP in your game is not a stamp that the game will be a critical and fiancial success. How come Persona 5, Horizon, TW3, Nier Automata, and Breath of the Wild be successes without MP? I don't think anybody here argues that the game can't be a critical/financial success without MP. What they disagree with is an idea that adding or focusing on MP means that the title is a cash-grab, or that is only following trends. Bioware always liked multiplayer. Their very first game from more than 20 years ago had one. Baldur's Gate had one. Neverwinter Nights had one. They are demonstrably eager to add multiplayer to their games even without demand for it - it just so happens that now there's also a demand for it. Yes, because it's only EAware that is in the news for mts/lootboxes. Oh wait - didn't people begin smacking beloved Blizzard lately for starting the whole trend with super-popular Overwatch? The MTs in Overwatch are tied to player progression?
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 23, 2017 23:45:13 GMT
I don't think anybody here argues that the game can't be a critical/financial success without MP. What they disagree with is an idea that adding or focusing on MP means that the title is a cash-grab, or that is only following trends. Bioware always liked multiplayer. Their very first game from more than 20 years ago had one. Baldur's Gate had one. Neverwinter Nights had one. They are demonstrably eager to add multiplayer to their games even without demand for it - it just so happens that now there's also a demand for it. Yes, because it's only EAware that is in the news for mts/lootboxes. Oh wait - didn't people begin smacking beloved Blizzard lately for starting the whole trend with super-popular Overwatch? The MTs in Overwatch are tied to player progression? They are not. But they are investigated in Belgium for gambling as well, together with BF2. Blizzard after all makes oodles of cash out of their lootboxes because - shocker, I know - many people happen to like them as much as any other part of the game.
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Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 24, 2017 3:16:40 GMT
Game Informer touched on Anthem today, serving as a reminder where the laser-focus of gaming journalism will be when BW starts talking about the game...
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Sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 24, 2017 4:27:32 GMT
Game Informer touched on Anthem today, serving as a reminder where the laser-focus of gaming journalism will be when BW starts talking about the game... {snip} Not sure, I find gaming journalism only focuses on something when it is negative so if BioWare does it right I don't see too many places wanting to write about it for it wouldn't be something that would generate enough views to be profitable. There might be one article created at a few places, I just don't see it being more then that unless EA doesn't learn from this.
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 24, 2017 5:08:59 GMT
Game Informer touched on Anthem today, serving as a reminder where the laser-focus of gaming journalism will be when BW starts talking about the game... {snip} Not sure, I find gaming journalism only focuses on something when it is negative so if BioWare does it right I don't see too many places wanting to write about it for it wouldn't be something that would generate enough views to be profitable. There might be one article created at a few places, I just don't see it being more then that unless EA doesn't learn from this. Eh, I don't know. IMO if someone wants to find something to rage about, they will. Right now nobody can find much info about the game itself, so people keep throwing ridiculous accusations like "You killed Mass Effect for this!".
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Sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 24, 2017 5:52:27 GMT
Not sure, I find gaming journalism only focuses on something when it is negative so if BioWare does it right I don't see too many places wanting to write about it for it wouldn't be something that would generate enough views to be profitable. There might be one article created at a few places, I just don't see it being more then that unless EA doesn't learn from this. Eh, I don't know. IMO if someone wants to find something to rage about, they will. Right now nobody can find much info about the game itself, so people keep throwing ridiculous accusations like "You killed Mass Effect for this!". I am talking more about the game journalism as a whole, not just when it comes to EA or BioWare.
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Post by Heimdall on Nov 24, 2017 11:06:03 GMT
A video about the history of EA and loot box style micro transaction
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https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 24, 2017 13:13:42 GMT
A video about the history of EA and loot box style micro transaction -(_ANTHEM_)-
Good find!
Video is informative. Also explains the genius of Wilson who took over the company in 2013 (I think) when EA stock price was at a low point. Today, the company's stick price is above $100.
Wilson is very good for investors but not so much for gamers. (🌸=◡=)
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