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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Nov 13, 2017 20:59:40 GMT
Subdue the neighboring clan so the priests have enough virgins for cutting their hearts out alive? Yeah... given the near absence of historic records I am sure it will take no time to throw together a video-game plot with the protagonist fighting for freedom and to avenge the murder of virgins, heart ripping and all that. But the scenery, creature compendium, gods and the outfits, oh, my! Want it. If there was an RPG in a setting based around Aztec culture and civilization I really wouldn't want to play as a protagonist with modern values who fights to end the old ways in favor of more progressive values or a narrative framed around doing that sort of thing.
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 13, 2017 21:04:34 GMT
The question is: Would it sell in the home market? If they already expect it to sell mediocre internationally - wouldn't they want good demand in domestic market at least? If it is good I don't see why it wouldn't? Do the Japanese not like Samurai or Ninja or their own history and mythology? Also not really sure about how well Japanese games do in western markets, I thought for the most part if they are good enough they do fairly successfully don't they? Surely I can't be overestimating the demand for games based around the Samurai and Japanese mythology? Are Samurai really not that popular these days? I can't judge the current Japanese market. There may always be a point when stuff simply doesn't sell because of saturation or just because animal ears strapped to a head are simply all the rage. Sidenote: Rashomon is one of the best films I ever saw. Anything Kurosawa goes well with me - and he featured a lot of samurai era stuff.
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Post by shechinah on Nov 13, 2017 21:36:44 GMT
If there was an RPG in a setting based around Aztec culture and civilization I really wouldn't want to play as a protagonist with modern values who fights to end the old ways in favor of more progressive values or a narrative framed around doing that sort of thing. Neither would I especially since it'd take away part of what is interesting about the setting. I mentioned the Aztec by Gary Jennings and I think it's a great example of how you can have a likable and sympathetic protagonist who is still a product of his culture. In a lot of ways, it added to the complexity and humanity of the character. Slavery, human sacrifice and *ritualistic cannibalism is part of his culture and he doesn't bat an eye at this norm. Example: Mixtli, the protagonist, neither approves nor disapproves of slavery: he never really makes any thoughts about it. It's just how things are. This doesn't mean that he regards the slaves he meets and keeps as less than human. It's shown through his behavior towards them that he regards them as people and not just the boy that becomes his best friend. *Example: After Mixtli has participated in a flower war, the meat of the sacrificed warriors are cooked and served to the populace since only the hearts are given to the gods. The rest are divided amongst the populace according to class as per a tradition that began due to mass starvation. Mixtli describes, without disgust, this and the dinner that he, as far as I can recall, partakes in. But later on the story, Mixtli and his group manages to get the better of some bandits intent on ambushing them to rob and kill them. Blood Glutton, one of Mixtli's companions, forces the bandits to eat the flesh of their dead comrades while he and the rest of Mixtli's group eats their dinner (which is animal meat). Mixtli is so sickened by the sight that he loses his appetit. It was a very well-done and subtle way of conveying that just because ritualistic cannibalism was considered part of the norm, it didn't mean every form for cannibalism was considered so.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Nov 13, 2017 21:37:07 GMT
The vast majority of classical RPGs take inspiration from D&D and Tolkien, which have western settings. Dragons, knights, castles, that sort of stuff. The oldest and most popular RPG series in Japan are no different.
Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Phantasy Star, etc--they all have roots in western roleplaying. The kind of stuff that the developers of the first jRPGs grew up on naturally became the things that they wanted to put into their game. And the people who grew up on those games went on to iterate that pattern of influence.
Japan does explore its own history and mythology a lot in other genres like fighting games and hack-and-slashes, but RPGs have always been a traditionally western thing.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Nov 13, 2017 22:07:45 GMT
The vast majority of classical RPGs take inspiration from D&D and Tolkien, which have western settings. Dragons, knights, castles, that sort of stuff. The oldest and most popular RPG series in Japan are no different. Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Phantasy Star, etc--they all have roots in western roleplaying. The kind of stuff that the developers of the first jRPGs grew up on naturally became the things that they wanted to put into their game. And the people who grew up on those games went on to iterate that pattern of influence. Japan does explore its own history and mythology a lot in other genres like fighting games and hack-and-slashes, but RPGs have always been a traditionally western thing. I suppose that is how RPGs probably started however there are a lot more settings explored in RPGs than just Medieval Europe, from Sci-fi spacefaring to post apocalyptic wastelands and even elements of steampunk, traditions are meant to be broken.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 22:54:04 GMT
Yeah... given the near absence of historic records I am sure it will take no time to throw together a video-game plot with the protagonist fighting for freedom and to avenge the murder of virgins, heart ripping and all that. But the scenery, creature compendium, gods and the outfits, oh, my! Want it. If there was an RPG in a setting based around Aztec culture and civilization I really wouldn't want to play as a protagonist with modern values who fights to end the old ways in favor of more progressive values or a narrative framed around doing that sort of thing. You always will do that, no matter what setting. They cannot provide you with a mindset they do not espouse themselves. I mean, point me to any game where you are playing anything but a modern person with modern values...
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Nov 13, 2017 23:52:17 GMT
If there was an RPG in a setting based around Aztec culture and civilization I really wouldn't want to play as a protagonist with modern values who fights to end the old ways in favor of more progressive values or a narrative framed around doing that sort of thing. You always will do that, no matter what setting. They cannot provide you with a mindset they do not espouse themselves. I mean, point me to any game where you are playing anything but a modern person with modern values... Conan Exiles, whole economy is based around enslaving people and breaking them on the wheel of pain, also human sacrifice, cannibalism and you get to run around with your dick swaying in the breeze! Pretty sure any game where you kill people would also suffice as most people in today's times don't run around killing people. Now I am not big on Aztec culture but I would have thought if you were going to set a game in an Aztec setting part of the appeal was the more primal and savage aspects of the culture?
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Post by DomeWing333 on Nov 13, 2017 23:53:24 GMT
The vast majority of classical RPGs take inspiration from D&D and Tolkien, which have western settings. Dragons, knights, castles, that sort of stuff. The oldest and most popular RPG series in Japan are no different. Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Phantasy Star, etc--they all have roots in western roleplaying. The kind of stuff that the developers of the first jRPGs grew up on naturally became the things that they wanted to put into their game. And the people who grew up on those games went on to iterate that pattern of influence. Japan does explore its own history and mythology a lot in other genres like fighting games and hack-and-slashes, but RPGs have always been a traditionally western thing. I suppose that is how RPGs probably started however there are a lot more settings explored in RPGs than just Medieval Europe, from Sci-fi spacefaring to post apocalyptic wastelands and even elements of steampunk, traditions are meant to be broken. Well, when it comes to RPGS, traditions don't seem to be broken so much as they are bent. Although there has been movement away from a predominantly western high fantasy setting, a lot of the elements of that setting are retained and just supplemented with more diverse influences. You'll have, for instance, knights in armor existing alongside ninjas wielding katanas or European castles alongside spiritual nature deities. Japan in particular tends to be...eclectic in their melding of cultures.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 2:05:40 GMT
You always will do that, no matter what setting. They cannot provide you with a mindset they do not espouse themselves. I mean, point me to any game where you are playing anything but a modern person with modern values... Conan Exiles, whole economy is based around enslaving people and breaking them on the wheel of pain, also human sacrifice, cannibalism and you get to run around with your dick swaying in the breeze! Pretty sure any game where you kill people would also suffice as most people in today's times don't run around killing people. Now I am not big on Aztec culture but I would have thought if you were going to set a game in an Aztec setting part of the appeal was the more primal and savage aspects of the culture? Yes, it will, but I doubt that it will skip past the motivations that root in the search of power, revenge of drive for freedom from someone or something. You still have to show the mindset that is not alien to the player. If it is, people won't play it. While killing, torturing, possessing and enslaving is not unheard of in the game plots as options, it is still perceived through the lense of modern understanding that those are evil things to do. We simply will never be able to experience the spirituality and frame of reference that is not stamped into our brains. So motivation will still have to be related to, and nothing seems to created faster links than a revenge story and an abstract struggle for freedom. If someone did something different, I'll play it. But I am also happy with window-dressing, particularly since there is no accurate written records, diaries, letters etc from that period to create a story based on facts. Archaeology can provide you with hints (entire household of nobles massacred or environmental troubles or the scenes of life from the artwork) but you won't have the framework and "out of the horses' mouth" as you have with a lot of other cultures.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Nov 14, 2017 7:18:10 GMT
Conan Exiles, whole economy is based around enslaving people and breaking them on the wheel of pain, also human sacrifice, cannibalism and you get to run around with your dick swaying in the breeze! Pretty sure any game where you kill people would also suffice as most people in today's times don't run around killing people. Now I am not big on Aztec culture but I would have thought if you were going to set a game in an Aztec setting part of the appeal was the more primal and savage aspects of the culture? Yes, it will, but I doubt that it will skip past the motivations that root in the search of power, revenge of drive for freedom from someone or something. You still have to show the mindset that is not alien to the player. If it is, people won't play it. While killing, torturing, possessing and enslaving is not unheard of in the game plots as options, it is still perceived through the lense of modern understanding that those are evil things to do. We simply will never be able to experience the spirituality and frame of reference that is not stamped into our brains. So motivation will still have to be related to, and nothing seems to created faster links than a revenge story and an abstract struggle for freedom. If someone did something different, I'll play it. But I am also happy with window-dressing, particularly since there is no accurate written records, diaries, letters etc from that period to create a story based on facts. Archaeology can provide you with hints (entire household of nobles massacred or environmental troubles or the scenes of life from the artwork) but you won't have the framework and "out of the horses' mouth" as you have with a lot of other cultures. Personally I would prefer a game allow me to decide my own mindset for my character, however for other characters in the world I would prefer their mindsets to reflect that of the culture that they live in, while I am sure you could have some characters that oppose the ritual sacrifice and whatnot, for most of the characters I would expect it is just an accepted part of the culture and I certainly wouldn't want to see a plot based around enforcing modern values and social justice ideals, it is part of the reason I dislike the Dragon Age setting, I mean it is supposed to be a dark fantasy setting (at least according to their marketing department) however everyone (except the bad guys who the game makes it clear you are supposed to hate) seems to adopt some really progressive values that seem like they should be really out of place in such a setting as if the writers are afraid that if they create sympathetic characters with flawed mindsets by today's standards that this somehow translates to them endorsing those mindsets, it is part of what makes settings like ASOIAF or the Witcher so compelling, the fact that they have flawed characters that are a product of the culture they live in yet can still be related to and sympathized with on some level even if you don't agree with everything they believe or do.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 14:47:18 GMT
Yes, it will, but I doubt that it will skip past the motivations that root in the search of power, revenge of drive for freedom from someone or something. You still have to show the mindset that is not alien to the player. If it is, people won't play it. While killing, torturing, possessing and enslaving is not unheard of in the game plots as options, it is still perceived through the lense of modern understanding that those are evil things to do. We simply will never be able to experience the spirituality and frame of reference that is not stamped into our brains. So motivation will still have to be related to, and nothing seems to created faster links than a revenge story and an abstract struggle for freedom. If someone did something different, I'll play it. But I am also happy with window-dressing, particularly since there is no accurate written records, diaries, letters etc from that period to create a story based on facts. Archaeology can provide you with hints (entire household of nobles massacred or environmental troubles or the scenes of life from the artwork) but you won't have the framework and "out of the horses' mouth" as you have with a lot of other cultures. Personally I would prefer a game allow me to decide my own mindset for my character, however for other characters in the world I would prefer their mindsets to reflect that of the culture that they live in, while I am sure you could have some characters that oppose the ritual sacrifice and whatnot, for most of the characters I would expect it is just an accepted part of the culture and I certainly wouldn't want to see a plot based around enforcing modern values and social justice ideals, it is part of the reason I dislike the Dragon Age setting, I mean it is supposed to be a dark fantasy setting (at least according to their marketing department) however everyone (except the bad guys who the game makes it clear you are supposed to hate) seems to adopt some really progressive values that seem like they should be really out of place in such a setting as if the writers are afraid that if they create sympathetic characters with flawed mindsets by today's standards that this somehow translates to them endorsing those mindsets, it is part of what makes settings like ASOIAF or the Witcher so compelling, the fact that they have flawed characters that are a product of the culture they live in yet can still be related to and sympathized with on some level even if you don't agree with everything they believe or do. I am okay with the romanticizing the setting and making more characters than just the protagonist to be more appealing to the modern sensitivities. I also prefer Tolkien's convention of hiding the downsides of the societies that the setting is based on. I loved the first few of the Martin's books, but I am not sure I would have been able to reproduce them in the games, as his characters are not insulated from the brutal things happening to them. While I did play protagonists like Sith Inquisitor who was enslaved and humiliated, Dalish Elf who was (nearly) raped, Bhaalspawn that was tortured - and right now I am playing a character being visibly consumed by a demon - and a whole slew of characters that were imprisoned, along with the companions that supplied tales of being subjected to rape, beatings, torture and what not, I always felt that at large, those romanticized worlds were not inherently hopeless and depressing. There is always a feeling of being removed from the terrible state in which 99.99999% of characters should be in in those settings. Brutalized, continuously starved, perpetually sick, and really not having that spark of individualism that the Western society cultivated in the last 200 or so years. I would have a very hard time if I was presented with a setting like this, playing a character that is in the 0.00001% and enjoy his or her hair-rising adventures, wearing the spiffy outfits and having a great body and pretty face, should most models I came across showed realistically the rest of the cast as realistically deformed, dirty, diseased, vacant-eyed from hunger, endlessly desperate, and having to continuously swipe a whip at everyone daring to beg from my fairly well-off one-of-a-kind heroine. And, yes, I do understand that slave ownership was a normal part of life till very late into the nineteenth century and still is... and we are insulated within our borders even today from the complete and utter misery that is human life beyond those borders. It just does not feel entertaining for me to play a protagonist who by default will always win against her oppressors and is therefore immune to the misery, or have a laughable token "oh, they all hate you and attack you on sight" short-term setbacks. So, I'd rather the setting romanticizes the period, fantasizes about it rather than reproduces it with extreme accuracy, whitens out the character's teeth, and, well, gives women equality with men (it frustrates me that I feel scared saying this on a gaming forum, but Internet is Internet), etc. Yes, even if it opens up the game to the critique of using the setting as just window-dressing and not really being "realistic". I just can't help but feel that the grimdark that believes it gives the players "blatant truth", "historic realism" and "realistic" is actually even more egocentric, wish-fulfilling and even more artificial than the Tolkienesque idealization. in other words, I am interested in games like Jade Empire and Assassin Creed.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Nov 14, 2017 22:00:25 GMT
My god Jade is there no middle ground with you? If it isn't one extreme it has to be the other, either all sunshine and rainbows or all disease and feces. Of course there is a great deal of romanticizing in most fantasy universes, even the Witcher and ASOIAF have a degree or romanticisim about them but it is the fact that they also don't shy away from some of the darker aspects that makes them interesting, of course if it was all doom and gloom and shades of black and brown the settings would be more of a chore to sit through however you do need the darker aspects to contrast the lighter aspects and to me I would have thought it was the more barbaric and savage aspects of the Aztec culture like the ritual sacrifice that made it interesting and would be disappointed if that did not play a part in the setting.
That said I guess I am not the one eager for an RPG based on Aztec culture, I would play one if it looked interesting enough and it would be a welcome change to see something like it however as far as settings I would like to see go there are other settings that interest me more, Feudal Japan for instance as the title of this thread suggests.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 22:54:33 GMT
My god Jade is there no middle ground with you? If it isn't one extreme it has to be the other, either all sunshine and rainbows or all disease and feces. Of course there is a great deal of romanticizing in most fantasy universes, even the Witcher and ASOIAF have a degree or romanticisim about them but it is the fact that they also don't shy away from some of the darker aspects that makes them interesting, of course if it was all doom and gloom and shades of black and brown the settings would be more of a chore to sit through however you do need the darker aspects to contrast the lighter aspects and to me I would have thought it was the more barbaric and savage aspects of the Aztec culture like the ritual sacrifice that made it interesting and would be disappointed if that did not play a part in the setting. That said I guess I am not the one eager for an RPG based on Aztec culture, I would play one if it looked interesting enough and it would be a welcome change to see something like it however as far as settings I would like to see go there are other settings that interest me more, Feudal Japan for instance as the title of this thread suggests. No, it is not either black and white, I simply answered your question. I am okay with the extent of dark themes and the subject matter in BioWare or Spider games. If I happen on a game in a setting based off cultures other than medieval Europe and with that balance of romantism vs realism, I would certainly be interested, particularly if it is an RPG. I am not specifically interested in say Japan over Aztecs over Russia over Korea over Vandals over Greeks, I am interested in anything that is NOT another medieval Europe with Elves and Dwarves. But not too grim, and with a flexible lead character, and companions if at all possible. But in a pinch, I would play with bows, spears, elves and dwarves...
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