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Post by biggydx on Nov 15, 2017 16:59:06 GMT
So there are two members from Bioware that sometimes visit the Anthem subreddit. Brenon Holmes (Technical Design Director for Anthem) has been the more vocal member, and has expressed opinions related not only to Loot Boxes, but also the departure of Anthems lead animator. Catching wind of this level of communication, I decided to make a thread asking questions about the teams mindset when it comes to Anthems development and the shared-world shooter genre. Some of the questions will likely be obvious to many here, but the idea behind the thread was to not only gauge where Bioware is at - philosophically - with Anthem, but also presenting player perspectives that could brought up during their talks and meetings. If you want to see any ongoing discussions, I've linked to the subreddit down below: www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/7cdgj6/dev_talk/Here were the questions and responses I got from them (In hindsight, I wish I had rephrased question 4 better). All responses came from Brenon Holmes, their QA analyst: 1) When it comes to Anthems narration and gameplay mechanics, how significantly is Bioware looking into the failures, and successes, of games such as Destiny and The Division when going through development?Brenon Holmes: Both of the games you list are in the competitive space for Anthem, so yes - we're looking at all aspects of those games (as well as many others). Generally we look to have 'mentor' games for specific features, we try to learn from what a particular game has done well and what could be improved. 2) One of the more common criticisms of games within this genre, specifically when they include PvP, is that many PvE-centered players feel their experience is hampered due to the need to keep the PvP experience balanced. As an example, some players feel as though the changes made from Destiny 1 to Destiny 2 (4v4 PvP, two primary weapons, static rolls, etc) have made the PvE experience less bombastic and exciting. This same feeling is also true of The Division, where many powerful perks on weapons were nerfed in order to keep the PvP "Dark-Zone" sections balanced. Are these types of player sentiments brought up during discussions at Bioware? If so, has it caused significant shifts in the gameplay approach needed for Anthem?
Brenon Holmes: I think that if you're going to have PvP, it is extremely challenging to share the same mechanics and balance with non-PvP game modes. I don't think its impossible... just very very hard. 3) While I cannot assume whether or not Anthem will contain a PvP component, I imagine that the game will likely require you to be always-online in order to play. Given either case, there will likely be an increased need for urgency in addressing bugs, glitches, and exploits. With Bioware no longer having a dedicated forum, does the team feel as though they'll be able to readily address future complaints and bug problems by relying on existing social sites (such as Reddit and Twitter) for player-feedback?
Brenon Holmes: This is a great question, and honestly I don't know the answer. Personally I really miss the old forums, I'm hopeful that we can help build new communities together with you folks... but I think we'll only really know the answer after we've given it a shot. 4) Last question. When Destiny first released, Bungie stated that they were highly surprised at how often players were playing, as well as their desire for content. This likely prompted them to increase their staff count in order to meet the demands of the more content-ravenous parts of their playerbase. There's a very good chance that if players introduce themselves into Anthem, they may likely exhaust the content very quickly. Does Bioware, and EA, feel they are ready to meet the challenge of providing such an audience with enough content?Brenon Holmes: It depends on what you mean by this... there are a lot of different kinds of content in games like this. People will very rapidly exhaust portions of the game content, and there's not much we can do about that. The real question is can we renew the experience and keep it fresh so people are still having fun and are engaged with the world... and we're definitely going to try! An interesting story for you about Mass Effect 3 - when we shipped the multiplayer component we were mainly hoping it just wouldn't be terrible... When we got back some of the multiplayer telemetry data, we thought it was a bug! We kept checking over the course of a few days before we really started trusting the data (there were a lot of people playing multiplayer) . We had a lot of contingency plans for failure, but not really any for what was basically a surprise success. Based on our experiences and those of our fellow devs in Austin who have been running a live service for quite some time, I think we'll be better prepared for Anthem's launch... but that said, I can't think of any game I've ever shipped that has gone according to plan after launch.
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Post by PillarBiter on Nov 15, 2017 17:31:49 GMT
I can't think of any game I've ever shipped that has gone according to plan after launch. This seems... off to me. No? Just me?
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Post by biggydx on Nov 15, 2017 18:40:52 GMT
I can't think of any game I've ever shipped that has gone according to plan after launch. This seems... off to me. No? Just me? I'm assuming he's referring to server load.
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 15, 2017 19:10:02 GMT
I can't think of any game I've ever shipped that has gone according to plan after launch. This seems... off to me. No? Just me? It's not all that weird. In the provided example what he's talking about is how when they were making Mass Effect 3 they likely figured that the MP mode was going to be what so many other MP modes shoved into a SP focused game were: Just another throwaway mode that we play for a little bit before moving on. Their main hope wasn't that it was going to be a big success but rather just that it wasn't garbage. So it probably never crossed their minds that it would be a huge hit and pretty much solidify future BioWare games also having a MP mode in them. It's mostly that sometimes it can be difficult to predict with a high degree of accuracy exactly what part of a game the playerbase will really like, since game design is such a subjective thing.
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Post by LukeBarrett on Nov 15, 2017 22:42:04 GMT
So there are two QA members for Bioware that sometimes visit the Anthem subreddit. Brenon Holmes has been the more vocal member, and has expressed opinions related not only to Loot Boxes, but also the departure of Anthems lead animator. Seeing this level of communication, I decided to make a thread asking questions about the teams mindset when it comes to Anthems development and the shared-world shooter genre. Some of the questions will likely be obvious to many here, but the idea behind the thread was to not only gauge where Bioware is at - philosophically - with Anthem, but also presenting player perspectives that could brought up during their talks and meetings. If you want to see any ongoing discussions, I've linked to the subreddit down below: www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/7cdgj6/dev_talk/Here were the questions and responses I got from them (In hindsight, I wish I had rephrased question 4 better). All responses came from Brenon Holmes, their QA analyst: Brenon Holmes is the Lead Technical Designer (iirc without looking it up) You're probably thinking of Bryan Johnson who is Senior QA Analyst++ and also posts on Reddit
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Post by biggydx on Nov 16, 2017 4:45:36 GMT
So there are two QA members for Bioware that sometimes visit the Anthem subreddit. Brenon Holmes has been the more vocal member, and has expressed opinions related not only to Loot Boxes, but also the departure of Anthems lead animator. Seeing this level of communication, I decided to make a thread asking questions about the teams mindset when it comes to Anthems development and the shared-world shooter genre. Some of the questions will likely be obvious to many here, but the idea behind the thread was to not only gauge where Bioware is at - philosophically - with Anthem, but also presenting player perspectives that could brought up during their talks and meetings. If you want to see any ongoing discussions, I've linked to the subreddit down below: www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/7cdgj6/dev_talk/Here were the questions and responses I got from them (In hindsight, I wish I had rephrased question 4 better). All responses came from Brenon Holmes, their QA analyst: Brenon Holmes is the Lead Technical Designer (iirc without looking it up) You're probably thinking of Bryan Johnson who is Senior QA Analyst++ and also posts on Reddit You're probably right. I likely confused him with BioAdmiral, who stated that they work in QA. That's actually somewhat encouraging then to have a lead designer be tuned in to player sentiments. Are you on board with Anthem as well Luke, or are you currently with the next Dragon Age title?
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Post by LukeBarrett on Nov 16, 2017 9:17:03 GMT
Brenon Holmes is the Lead Technical Designer (iirc without looking it up) You're probably thinking of Bryan Johnson who is Senior QA Analyst++ and also posts on Reddit You're probably right. I likely confused him with BioAdmiral, who stated that they work in QA. That's actually somewhat encouraging then to have a lead designer be tuned in to player sentiments. Are you on board with Anthem as well Luke, or are you currently with the next Dragon Age title? I am still with the Dragon Age team working on whatever it is we do - but I like to pop in to the Anthem section from time to time just to see how things are going and ensure we have at least a micro-presence here on BSN
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Post by biggydx on Nov 16, 2017 15:21:08 GMT
You're probably right. I likely confused him with BioAdmiral, who stated that they work in QA. That's actually somewhat encouraging then to have a lead designer be tuned in to player sentiments. Are you on board with Anthem as well Luke, or are you currently with the next Dragon Age title? I am still with the Dragon Age team working on whatever it is we do - but I like to pop in to the Anthem section from time to time just to see how things are going and ensure we have at least a micro-presence here on BSN Well good luck to you man.
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 16, 2017 19:29:12 GMT
I like to pop in to the Anthem section from time to time just to see how things are going and ensure we have at least a micro-presence here on BSN Appreciated. And I'm told size isn't everything... (cough)
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 16, 2017 19:34:43 GMT
I like to pop in to the Anthem section from time to time just to see how things are going and ensure we have at least a micro-presence here on BSN Appreciated. And I'm told size isn't everything... (cough) That's what she said, but then one day she wasn't sure neither:
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 16, 2017 21:21:41 GMT
Nice thread, biggy, but I wish you had replied to his “I really miss the old forums” comment with a helpful link to the new forums. Not dead yet!
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Post by phoray on Nov 17, 2017 2:31:16 GMT
You're probably right. I likely confused him with BioAdmiral, who stated that they work in QA. That's actually somewhat encouraging then to have a lead designer be tuned in to player sentiments. Are you on board with Anthem as well Luke, or are you currently with the next Dragon Age title? I am still with the Dragon Age team working on whatever it is we do - but I like to pop in to the Anthem section from time to time just to see how things are going and ensure we have at least a micro-presence here on BSN I laughed. I also you.
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Post by akots on Nov 18, 2017 4:47:07 GMT
It's mostly that sometimes it can be difficult to predict with a high degree of accuracy exactly what part of a game the playerbase will really like, since game design is such a subjective thing. That is probably true. However, the opposite statement "it can be difficult to predict with a high degree of accuracy exactly what part of a game the playerbase will really dislike" is certainly not true.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 18, 2017 8:44:28 GMT
It's mostly that sometimes it can be difficult to predict with a high degree of accuracy exactly what part of a game the playerbase will really like, since game design is such a subjective thing. That is probably true. However, the opposite statement "it can be difficult to predict with a high degree of accuracy exactly what part of a game the playerbase will really dislike" is certainly not true. It is true as well... I take it you're thinking microtransactions. But that's a very specific feature. And depending on how it's implemented people might NOT mind it. But developers and publishers certainly don't want any part of a game to be disliked. They want big sales. And yet it happens. Because you CANNOT accurately predict what the majority will like OR dislike. A developer's perspective can be very different from a consumer's/gamer's. I've read several interviews over the years where developers were surprised some feature or other was (dis)liked so much. If developers could predict all backlash surely there wouldn't be any. Also, there's a difference between cutting features because of time or budget constraints or unpolished sections that the consumer won't be too happy about but cannot be helped and is a normal process during development... and actively designing stuff you know people will hate. Except for MT, the latter is rarely the case, I would imagine.
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Post by akots on Nov 18, 2017 18:44:30 GMT
and actively designing stuff you know people will hate. Actually, there are some parts of the game that have to be actively hated by the player for better experience. Enemies intended to be killed should be hated. Everyone hates geth in ME3 multiplayer, yet, they are one of the most enjoyable fraction to fight against. Monster/enemy design is a big deal. Sometimes, however, things get messed up in the process so, it is a thin line. Disliking some feature is a different story IMO. Every feature is targeted to a certain audience of players/buyers. If developers have some doubt, they can always ask. If there is no doubt but something is still actively disliked, that simply means bad developers. It can be bad/wrong taste depending on target audience. Bad controls, glitches and crashes, I presume, are universally disliked. As I understand, loot boxes and microtransactions (not so micro in some recent titles) are not coming from the developers as developers don't particularly care how specifically their product is monetized. Although they have to include the mechanisms in their product, it comes from the publishers who know nothing and don't care much about anything as long as it gets the cash. They do care about reviews and ratings just because better ratings seem to correlate with better sales. There are a few very positive examples out there. IMHO, Obsidian is doing a spectacular job both at developing their titles and dealing with EA. They are not EA-exclusive though. So, as usual, some competition between the publishers will make things work better. Exclusivity kills the competition.
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Post by biggydx on Nov 27, 2017 16:40:28 GMT
Even though these next few comments are a few weeks old, I'll still post them if anyone finds them interesting. When it comes to hardcore player incentive for shared-world shooters, have you - or the team - seen better player engagement when the chase is centered around loot, when it's centered around a particular event?Brenon Holmes: That's a fairly involved question, as it starts to get into segmentation and other stuff like that - the easy answer is that it's actually both. If you look at games like WoW, they don't actually just have one audience... they have something like 15 different audiences who all enjoy different activities in the game, and different releases engage with those different audiences. (On the topic of PvE vs PvP Balancing)Reddit User BNols: The balance problems come down to the fact that you can do all sorts of powerful, fun and unique things in a PVE environment (which is what ME MP is), since you are doing those things to mobs, instead of another player. Brenon Holmes: Exactly. It has more to do with the mechanics that are present in the game... if you look at Overwatch for example, there are a lot of things the Heroes can do, but generally they boil down to various ways of dealing and preventing/ablating damage, and enemy hero displacement. This makes it easier for them to control and balance interactions between heroes. Me: With respect to your response to question 2, what do you believe makes it so challenging for developers to separate both the PvE and PvP sandboxes for this type of genre? I'm of the opinion that it would entail having two separate datasheets for every weapon and item in the game; one for PvP and one for PvE. It's similar to what I've seen with ME3 and ME:A MP, where certain weapons will have different datasheets; depending upon whether it's used in Singleplayer or Multiplayer. I imagine the hitch to this being a solution, is having a significant number of these datasheets could be time-consuming to program and account for; and could potentially cause more problems than it's worth. Brenon Holmes: That's one way you can do it at the base level - I think this sort of approach is generally what you see when you're trying to adapt your systems to fit both experiences. It is also, as you suggest... a lot of work.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 21:40:32 GMT
biggydx (hint, hint) would be sweet to hear solo vs MP thoughts as well as the good old PvE vs PvP tbh...
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Post by biggydx on Nov 28, 2017 15:21:12 GMT
biggydx (hint, hint) would be sweet to hear solo vs MP thoughts as well as the good old PvE vs PvP tbh... I asked him additional questions a week ago, but he hasn't responded. I imagine he's either too busy, or there's a good chance he's in "no talks" mode. Bioware has typically revealed gameplay at the VGA awards in December. It's possible that they don't want to release more information until then. If you're curious as to what questions I asked, they're below. Understand, that I'm trying to gain a sense of where the team is at philosophically with Anthem. I don't ask for any specifics into gameplay mechanics/story since they likely won't give any. 1) Was there some level of trepidation/hesitation - within the studio - when making Anthem? I ask this because the game looks to be a primarily online experience, which is a fairly noticeable divergence from your studio's (generally) offline singleplayer-focused games. No doubt, Bioware has had an online component in more recent titles; including PvE multiplayer. However, was the decision to go this route jarring for some (or even yourself) within the studio, or something that was easily embraced? I'm of the mind that developers can't be expected to simply pump out the same game experience over-and-over, and that diversity in development ideas can see potential gains. Ten years ago, who would of thought that Blizzard would go on to make one of the most critically-acclaimed and successful shooters of all-time? Sometimes people need to get out of their shell. 2) Shared-world games typically offer a narrowly-focused storyline, one in which your actions are made deliberate and largely decided by the developer. While there may be choices you can make with regards to how handle a given scenario, none of these heavily impact the overall story. Your studio is known for implementing player choice into many of your titles. However, the shared-world nature of Anthem looks to be a counteracting point to this type of tradition. Do you feel the genre gets in the way of having those story choices (and consequences), or do you think it's still possible to offer up impactful choices; which could potentially cause branching paths between players? 3) Over the years, you've accrued a playerbase that primarily play your games because they enjoy the singleplayer experience. With the reveal of Anthem being a online experience, you may have seen from some level of disappointment or worry from your fanbase; due to the shift. While I'm sure die-hard Bioware fans, or those who are open-minded, will still play the game, my question is: "Is there a concern among Bioware's staff about possible player apathy with regards to Anthem being a primarily online experience?" 4) Outside of what we - and others - have discussed here, are there any other "common flaws" that you've seen within the shared-world genre (or even the open world genre)? What do you think developers continue to get wrong when it comes to said genre?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2017 15:28:10 GMT
biggydxhey, thanks for sharing. Not really what interests me, but please, share if they do respond to it
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Post by Silversmurf on Nov 29, 2017 13:01:08 GMT
You're probably right. I likely confused him with BioAdmiral, who stated that they work in QA. That's actually somewhat encouraging then to have a lead designer be tuned in to player sentiments. Are you on board with Anthem as well Luke, or are you currently with the next Dragon Age title? I am still with the Dragon Age team working on whatever it is we do - but I like to pop in to the Anthem section from time to time just to see how things are going and ensure we have at least a micro-presence here on BSN Finding this post brightened my day! I hope to god you are the lead designer/creator of the next DA multiplayer and are given enough time and resources to make it a cracker. (keep infinite promotions btw for long term players of MP)
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Dec 2, 2017 23:02:47 GMT
I can't think of any game I've ever shipped that has gone according to plan after launch. Overwatch? Starcraft 2 trilogy?
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Post by biggydx on Dec 3, 2017 22:01:16 GMT
I can't think of any game I've ever shipped that has gone according to plan after launch. Overwatch? Starcraft 2 trilogy? Did he help work on those titles as well? Otherwise, I'm pretty sure he specifically mentioned games that "He" launched.
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Dec 3, 2017 23:40:22 GMT
Overwatch? Starcraft 2 trilogy? Did he help work on those titles as well? Otherwise, I'm pretty sure he specifically mentioned games that "He" launched. Oh right. Sry, missed that. Anyway, thats probably means everything he ships is incomplete. Not surprising given Bioware's history and programming incompetence.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Dec 5, 2017 21:06:11 GMT
uhm....someone should really ask about how in depth the "single player experience" is going to be.
I do not want another 5-hours-campaign-158751494648-hours-soulless-grind-Destiny-clone game....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 19:44:55 GMT
uhm....someone should really ask about how in depth the "single player experience" is going to be. I do not want another 5-hours-campaign-158751494648-hours-soulless-grind-Destiny-clone game.... That's what the OP sort of tried to reflect in the admittedly uber-long and windy Questions 2-3 that remained unanswered: bsn.boards.net/post/936300/thread
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