[Day/Night Game] Trouble on the Citadel - round "LE Part 2: Why Cerberus Is Right For You"

Dragon I figured you could have been either EDI or The Virmire Survivor due to process of elimination .
Also I don't recall myself or the rest of Heroes bitterly complaining about Tittus not being allowed to hint or tell the Heroes your role adonniel. I do remember the remark I made about Tittus being in a possible tough spot due to the fact that he knew your role and that he would be taken down if he voted for you. I was trying to figure out his behavior. In the process, I came across more critical than I intended, but I definitely wasn't bitter, I was in the middle of figuring out what happened.

The rules do need modifications to tip it back to heroes more. But what you're proposing is too radical and will flip it too heavily back in favour of the heroes.

We both agree on modifications.

We don't agree what type of modifications there should be. That's why we're arguing.

I also think you are exaggerating how much power the villains had this round just because they had bonuses. Like I said, it was a lot harder than it may have looked from your side.

I did find it amusing how you guys thought you're surrounded by 4 spies. Don't tell me you aren't exaggerating.

Speaking of the number of spies... don't you think a known number is better?

Initially Mabari and Varric revealed a shot spy only to Varric or Mabari. This was modified because my set of rules does not allow the players to hint at their roles, thus, the general public needs more clues.

You are playing with a rule that role hints ARE allowed, which is a huge powerful boost to heroes as is. Therefore there is no need for additional clues like that.

You know... you guys could have congratulated us at least... instead we immediately get a bunch of complaints how the villains were overpowered.

And I get jumped for pointing out that it wasn't as easy as you think.

I believe not a very good sport applies here and I'm going to remove myself from this discussion since I'm still feeling like we're still in the hero vs villain boat.

I said several times that the spies did a good job, and someone else did too (I forget who...not everyone has posted), but as the former/future GM of this game, balance in the rules does concern me, which is why I want to address it before round 4.


No one jumped on you. I honestly think you're being way too sensitive and emotional here. Nothing I've said was intended as an attack on the spies, just an attempt to make the game balanced.

Also I like your idea with Liara dragon, but why not make this a seperate role? This actually reminds me of the Oracle role who could reveal the role of a player of their choosing when they get killed at night.
Also regarding Diana, I suggest if she successfully votes off her target, she should get some sort reward. Maybe invulnerability to getting voted off the next day.
Regarding Tali in these games, I do beleive she needs a change. I suggest a new ability that doesn't involve her knowing who Legion is that can also help out both sides.

Can we switch reporters please, for every round? Diana's a shady ass so can we get someone good like Emily for one round, Khalisah al-Jilani who's a pricky dog? 

I'm thinking we could switch Liara and Emily about; either one is guaranteed present and good. They're both in the same line; investigative, except that perhaps with Emily, if she's eliminated at night while's she's investigating, there would be a news headline the next day that reveal the investigated player name but no definitive proof that the player is bad or good. It's up to the rest to decide?

Not too certain about Khalisah. For one thing I'd prefer that she would be able to change votes unlike Diana who cannot change direction. I'd like her to use her punch as an ability to defend against the agents. 

I never insulted you personally, which is what you are doing here.

I also said that the spies were sneaky this round, a couple of times I believe, which is definitely a compliment for spies in this game. I don't get why you're focusing solely on that one post.

And why would I make two separate posts?? I had no idea you were going to take offense at a simple discussion about the game rules.

I'm the one who came up with these new rules, remember? To help the imbalance against the spies? And the change was too extreme, so I feel responsible for trying to fix them, and then trying to explain why they needed to be fixed. That's literally all this is.

Guys,don't fight now, it was a good game, despite the fact that there were some problems because the rules might not be perfect yet for the spies being roles too.

Woke up this morning to the result and I just find it incredible that our lucky streak continued. Yes, our strategy and my powers of persuasion did have something to do with it but I do think the dice were just rolling in our favour every time we had a set back and if us spies are honest about it, there were plenty of "Oh Shit" moments when we were playing that somehow we came out of ahead. I sought out the video on You Tube of Marlon Brando singing "Luck be a Lady" and have been humming it rather a lot the last few days.

Romice, I repeat what I said in game, I am truly sorry that I did that to you. The others will vouch for me here that I did feel bad. There is a reason why I never do evil in games and whilst I enjoyed the win, I still feel conflicted about how I managed to manipulate people. It has actually put into perspective for me the whole Grey Warden plot in DAI. If you are in a situation you have never encountered before and unsure who to trust (because in the case of the Wardens they have the Calling buzzing in their ears) then it would be easy for someone with powers of persuasion to manipulate them. What the writers did wrong was have Erimond be such an obvious smarmy, unsympathetic and evil sounding individual. If he had been understated and far more a smooth charmer, the plot would have been far more convincing.

I also apologise to Dragon as well, please don't jump into a volcano on my behalf. The reason you survived so long was that other people were easier/more valuable targets for elimination initially and towards the end we couldn't risk that you might be the Virmire Survivor faking being someone else because of the next day vote that would give you. We realised the alternative was EDI which if we targeted you at night would win the game for us but by now even the spies were paranoid about deception and so you survived. So even if the deception wasn't deliberate, well done for getting as far as you did in the role of EDI. The only person I cannot say with hand on heart I was not sorry to vote off was Diana. As I said at the time Moonae, I was actually glad to be shot of her. I think we ought to change Diana's role for the next game to make it more balanced so there is some benefit to keeping her around.

When the game started and Tittus said "I vote Gervaise", we immediately thought he might be Liara and had investigated me overnight. Had that been the case, the game would have been very different. It was only when he backtracked and it started to be evident that it was actually Adonniel he had checked that we realised we might have a shot at eliminating him. When you think about it, had Space not told Tittus Adonniel's role then he would have pushed for getting her voted off the first day and then Adonniel would have taken him with her. So either way you would have lost Liara in the first round. Then by the second round you knew Liara was good so no real advantage to the spies there. After all, it was Tittus' behaviour as Liara that had people still doubting him even after he was revealed as good and even knowing Adonniel's role, he could have played it differently to the way he did.

I think that having roles being either good or evil offset the fact that people are allowed to give hints as to their role. So even when people thought they knew who everyone was, they still couldn't be sure whether to trust them or not. If you have too many roles that can only be good, that negates the balance that the uncertainty gives, particularly if those are roles that are always in the game. So if Liara is always good then I think Miranda and Garrus should not. An evil Miranda can block Garrus shooting someone instead of preventing indoctrination. This would instantly reveal them as evil, although you would still have to work out who Miranda is. Garrus can shoot anyone so long as they are on the opposite side. That still leaves an element of uncertainty if you don't know whether the target was good or evil but at least if he shoots someone who is revealed to be a spy then that confirms he is good.

As for the other roles, we need to give some thought to how some people's abilities are going to work if they are evil. We were a bit stuck over what I could do as Kasumi. It certainly couldn't be the same as for Evil Clone Kasumi as she is given a list of spies to help but I already knew that. May be she can snoop in Liara's office once per night and discover the name of the person Liara is investigating that night, although that would only be useful so long as Liara is still in the game. Alternatively, may be she can suggest to the GM that a person is a certain role and if she is right, then the GM will confirm it. It does need thinking about.

Other roles that may need revising are the Evil Clone, who presumably is always just that with the choice of which side they join if they assume a role, although presumably if the person targeted was evil, should they just join the spies in that case?   Tali and EDI also need looking at. May be Tali could temporarily block Legion in some way, just as Javik temporarily blocks everyone. She wouldn't need to know his identity if this was the case, just elect to block on that particular cycle. That would avoid the problems of Tali knowing Legion's identity if they are on opposite sides. EDI, if good, is a danger to the heroes and a potential asset to the spies, but evil EDI would seem to be just a player. Is there not some sort of way in which an evil EDI could be turned into an asset for the heroes?

If we are going to add extra roles to the pool, then I definitely think we should have a Mordin role. I'm not quite sure what his special ability should be yet but certainly either a protective or harmful role based off whether he starts out good or evil.

Finally, I've already volunteered to run the next game over on Skyhold and am quite willing to run a game here as well. It is pragmatism rather than altruism that drives this. I have a feeling that I am going to be an instant target for everyone after this, so need some time to restore my credibility as a trustworthy person.