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Post by fylimar on Jan 29, 2018 13:07:30 GMT
I like gervaise idea about Tali. That she can block Legions ability once per game. Then it wouldn't matter, if they are on different sides. I don't know, if I said that before, but I did feel bad, when I got the info, that I'm Tali and a spy and Legion isn't. I'm glad, smiles was actually the last hero standing, after he unknowingly made hsi identity known to my fellow spies in round 1. dragontartare: About why we thought, you were Kaidan. You did just a really great stunt over in Skyhold with Vivi, I don't know, if it was itentionally, but you never really denied, you were the puppies and I guess, the spies over might have thought, it would be good to remove you (since if you were teh puppies, you had two more use of your ability) and instead they gave you a way to bring back two heroes. I personally thought, you did something similar here. Make us believe, you accidently thought I'm Kaidan to hide that you are Kaidan and make us believe you are EDI and a valuable target, so that the heroes still have three votes a day later - obviously, we spies were as paranoid as you heroes . I think, the reason that we won, had to do with a bit of luck. Tittus had a great plan, but he wasn't confident enough, to stick to it or we could really have been in trouble here I guess. Then Garrus waited with the shooting, so we had adonniel one more round as an active player. Then romice, when voted off, admitted, that gervaise made a good case against her (and we really did feel bad in the spy chat, romice. You did exactly the right thing in waiting for confirmation, that Liara was good and got voted off for it.) And then smiles voting for dragon - tbh, he probably had the same problems than dragon, not knowing exactly, whom to vote for. If I weren't a spy, I didn't want to be in your shoes, that really was tough. The funny thing is, dragon, had I been a hero, I would have become highly suspicious of you, after you confused me with Kaidan, because - and that's a compliment here - you are our ME wiki here . I just didn't press the point further, because I wanted to stay under the heroes radar for a while longer. So my two cents about changes in future games: - Liara being always good would be better - telling directly, if a killed or voted off person was hero or spy would be helpful - Tali needs a new ability and I like gervaise proposition - I agree about revising EDI and EC. Or maybe change them in favor to other characters? I don't know - make Diana at least a tiny bit useful. If I would get that role as it is, I wouldn't weep, if voted out or targeted by the spies tbh. So I like the idea of her getting the chance to actually do something useful. Or OGs idead with that otehr reporter
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Post by Moonae on Jan 29, 2018 14:02:29 GMT
Not too certain about Khalisah. For one thing I'd prefer that she would be able to change votes unlike Diana who cannot change direction. I'd like her to use her punch as an ability to defend against the agents. Khalisah would so be the Village Idiot. Okay, so, this isn't really a serious suggestion, 'cause I believe for a village idiot-type role to work without unbalancing the game you need a larger number of players than we have here, but it just hit me how well she suits the role. For those of you who don't know: the Village Idiot is basically a one-man team who is neither good nor bad. Their entire goal is to be voted of during the day. If they are voted off the game's over and they win. Alone. So, it's in the interest of both the good guys and the bad guys to kill the village idiot during the nighttime. Again, I don't think this role really fits in to the game we're playing here, but think about it: It's a role that's literally asking to be punched in the face.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 14:06:18 GMT
I did congratulate the spies adonniel, I beleive you guys won fair and that it was a good game By saying, "congratulations Gerva and fylimar?" Why thank you for ignoring me. I'm glad to know my contribution to the game was so insignificant that it wasn't necessary to include my name on the team list at the end of the game. Dragon Of course I'm being overly sensitive. I am responding to two comments right off the bat at the end of the game. One of them made me feel like a team reject and the other has diminished our group's effort.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Jan 29, 2018 14:29:53 GMT
I did congratulate the spies adonniel, I beleive you guys won fair and that it was a good game By saying, "congratulations Gerva and fylimar?" Why thank you for ignoring me. I'm glad to know my contribution to the game was so insignificant that it wasn't necessary to include my name on the team list at the end of the game. Dragon Of course I'm being overly sensitive. I am responding to two comments right off the bat at the end of the game. One of them made me feel like a team reject and the other has diminished our group's effort. I'm sorry I didn't include you off the bat. I included the remaining active spies but didn't think of including the whole team. But I should have. Your contribution was huge and all the spies did a great job. The win was in no way diminished by dodgy rules because the spies arguments themselves were really good and persuasive. That was not due to the rules, it was due to all of your contribution.
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Post by fylimar on Jan 29, 2018 15:42:31 GMT
I just wanted to add, that I was really ill, that wasn't fake. I was away from the spy chat as long as I was away from this board because of it. It was fun being the bad girl for once - this was my first time as a spy in either game
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Post by Space Cowboy on Jan 29, 2018 16:59:58 GMT
Well
I've been thinking. I've allowed myself to spend far too much time on this game during work hours. So I think I'll just sit out a round or so. Focus on other things. Besides. It seems my poor management has made people upset. I'm sorry about that.
Gervaise will make a great gm!
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Post by fylimar on Jan 29, 2018 17:09:58 GMT
Space: you did a good job. This wasn't your fault, the rules were new and it was your first time as gm.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Jan 29, 2018 17:16:05 GMT
Space: you did a good job. This wasn't your fault, the rules were new and it was your first time as gm. Thanks. I'd love to try again as gm but I think it best I take a round off first. If Gervaise doesn't mind taking over?
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Post by pelassarias on Jan 29, 2018 17:33:28 GMT
I did congratulate the spies adonniel, I beleive you guys won fair and that it was a good game By saying, "congratulations Gerva and fylimar?" Why thank you for ignoring me. I'm glad to know my contribution to the game was so insignificant that it wasn't necessary to include my name on the team list at the end of the game. Dragon Of course I'm being overly sensitive. I am responding to two comments right off the bat at the end of the game. One of them made me feel like a team reject and the other has diminished our group's effort. I congratulated them specifically because they were the the last two remaining spies who managed to work together in the end to win. But before that comment I did not exclude you in that post. My first congratulatory comment included "spies" so that definitely includes you.
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Post by pelassarias on Jan 29, 2018 17:51:12 GMT
Adonniel you basically called me and the Heroes bitter complainers, then go on to call me a bad sport because I mistakenly did not include you enough in one post. I wouldn't say making a mistake such as that would make me a bad sport. I'll apologize and bury the hatchet if you apologize to me. Despite my mistakes, I don't deserve to be called names .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 18:14:43 GMT
I'll apologize and bury the hatchet if you apologize to me. I'm not going to apologize for pointing out improper behaviour. Neither of you were happy with the villain win and I got hostility for being lucky enough to get into conversation right after the story got posted. I had expected we could post gifs and poke fun of the game after the fact. Instead there was a bunch of blame and dislike. I am disappointed in you.
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Post by pelassarias on Jan 29, 2018 18:44:54 GMT
This actually reminds me of the Oracle role who could reveal the role of a player of their choosing when they get killed at night. Interesting. This would be revealed to everyone, I assume? Also regarding Diana, I suggest if she successfully votes off her target, she should get some sort reward. Maybe invulnerability to getting voted off the next day. Nice idea, though this would require everyone to know her role if she ends up with immunity. Regarding Tali in these games, I do beleive she needs a change. I suggest a new ability that doesn't involve her knowing who Legion is that can also help out both sides. Yeah, I think she needs a completely different ability that is unrelated to Legion. Right now I can't think of what, but I'll keep brainstorming. Yeah, The Oracle is basically like Varric/Mabari except the person has to die in order to activate the ability You mentioned that Liara will more than likely get offed early in game, which is why I'm not really opposed to this change. But if anyone else is you can make this a seperate role. Also I do like gervaise's idea about Tali blocking Legion's ability. I do think Tali's new ability should probably involving voting or blocking.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 18:53:32 GMT
I never insulted you personally, which is what you are doing here. I'm not the one who asked somebody for their opinion and then called them biased after they have stated their mind.
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 29, 2018 19:23:46 GMT
I'll apologize and bury the hatchet if you apologize to me. I'm not going to apologize for pointing out improper behaviour. Neither of you were happy with the villain win and I got hostility for being lucky enough to get into conversation right after the story got posted. I had expected we could post gifs and poke fun of the game after the fact. Instead there was a bunch of blame and dislike. I am disappointed in you. I can't multi-quote on my phone, so I'm just going with this one. I really think you need to take a step back here and realize that none of us were purposely insulting you. There was no hostility after the villain win, except from you. There was no blame aimed at the villains either, only me blaming my own rules for needing tweaking, and me blaming smiles (another hero) for being completely checked out for the entire game and doing nothing to help his own allies. And the only dislike was for the new rules, because even you agree that they need some changes. Saying you were biased was not a personal insult, since we're all biased to some extent. It's human nature. You were biased due to being a spy in this game, and I don't think you're understanding that the role hints (which you believe to be a huge advantage to the heroes) were virtually useless this round, since even a proven identity could still have been an enemy to the heroes. I mean, look what happened to Tittus, Moonae, and romice. All I tried to do was explain that to you. No insults made. But calling us bad sports is very much personal, and uncalled for.
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Post by pelassarias on Jan 29, 2018 19:54:43 GMT
I'll apologize and bury the hatchet if you apologize to me. I'm not going to apologize for pointing out improper behaviour. Neither of you were happy with the villain win and I got hostility for being lucky enough to get into conversation right after the story got posted. I had expected we could post gifs and poke fun of the game after the fact. Instead there was a bunch of blame and dislike. I am disappointed in you. Then I won't apoligize for making an honest oversight/mistake. You are free to misinterpret my posts and I will clear things up for you in return and possibly apologize. But I will not allow you to tell me how I felt when it is to the contrary.Not without making things absolutely clear. I congratulated the spies, including you and thought it was a good and hard fought game. I even liked some of your posts where you celebrating a well earned win. It wasn't until I saw you mentioning the Heroes bitterly complaining that I decided to confront you about it. I'm dissapointed that instead of discussing with me and dragon about this reasonably you resort into making us look like bitter sore losers. I haven't and will not call you any names adonniel. I'm just asking you to take a breather, go over what happened, and apologize. If you can't do that than I'm even more dissapointed in you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 21:06:23 GMT
I'm just asking you to take a breather, go over what happened, and apologize. Apologize to someone who has been less than courteous to me and then told me that I've imagined it? Sure! When Andraste's tits freeze over!
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Post by Space Cowboy on Jan 30, 2018 0:29:05 GMT
Not too certain about Khalisah. For one thing I'd prefer that she would be able to change votes unlike Diana who cannot change direction. I'd like her to use her punch as an ability to defend against the agents. Khalisah would so be the Village Idiot. Okay, so, this isn't really a serious suggestion, 'cause I believe for a village idiot-type role to work without unbalancing the game you need a larger number of players than we have here, but it just hit me how well she suits the role. For those of you who don't know: the Village Idiot is basically a one-man team who is neither good nor bad. Their entire goal is to be voted of during the day. If they are voted off the game's over and they win. Alone. So, it's in the interest of both the good guys and the bad guys to kill the village idiot during the nighttime. Again, I don't think this role really fits in to the game we're playing here, but think about it: It's a role that's literally asking to be punched in the face. That does sound like a fun role
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Post by pelassarias on Jan 30, 2018 1:49:07 GMT
Listen I really would rather if things don't get out of hand to where this conflict ruins the atmosphere for everyone who wants to continue playing this addictive game. So I'm putting out my olive branch, adonniel. It's never my intention to make anyone feel less valuable period. It was not my intention to make any of the spies feel undeserving of their win. But that doesn't matter, so I'm sorry adonniel for not congratulating for your contribution to the Spies' Win. You played really well along with gervaise and flyimar. I should have brought that up, so again, my apologies. I personally felt hurt when you called me a bad sport and brushed my explanation about my comment regarding Tittus off. I hope you find it within yourself to eventually apologize to me or dragon, just for the sake of mendings things. But if you don't that's alright. I'll get over it, life goes on.
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 30, 2018 2:31:49 GMT
I know gervaise21 is running the next game (right?) but I wanted to summarize ideas so far. Khalisah - the village idiot, only to be used if we ever get a ton of players Liara is always good. The allegiance of eliminated players will be revealed immediately. Tali gets a new ability - She may block Legion's ability rather than find out who he is and avoid his votes. Would she have to correctly guess when Legion is going to use his ability and PM the game master first? If she PM's the GM with "I'd like to block Legion's ability this day round," and Legion does not use his ability, does Tali get another chance, or has she wasted it? Another idea I had for Tali was a play on her hacking ability. Rather than blocking Legion's ability, she can actually take over it. I think this would make it rare that she ever gets to use an ability, that's the only problem with either of these ideas. Unless I am misunderstanding them. Karin Chakwas could be a resurrection role similar to Vivienne in the Skyhold game. I'm up for rethinking EDI and EC. Maybe EC could be a Cole-like role, who gets one shot per game to mimic someone else's ability? The role could be renamed as "Shepard's clone" rather than being an evil clone? I dunno. Right now, I have no clue for EDI though. I'm also up for making the reporter role more useful. I can't remember if I posted this already or just thought about it, but what if the reporter has a chance to actually find out useful information? Maybe for every player rolled for the reporter to target, the reporter gets a 50/50 chance of being told the player's allegiance? Having an Oracle role, rather than giving Liara the "Glyph" feature I suggested. What about the idea to tweak the abilities of evil characters, so that they are distinguishable from the good versions? Meaning, for example, good Garrus could accidentally shoot another hero, but evil Garrus cannot shoot another spy, so the players know that if Garrus shoots a spy, Garrus proves himself to be good (but Garrus who shoots a hero still has proven nothing).
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 30, 2018 3:08:47 GMT
Two more ideas: Evil Clone could mostly keep the old ability, but add in that if the target role is eliminated at night (by spies or Garrus), then they get to take over the role with whichever alignment they choose. The Clone can keep quiet if they so choose (and not impersonate someone right away) but if they want to take a role, then they must hint at that role. A Clone who switches from spy to good cannot explicitly state that they have switched, nor give away the identities of the spies (though they can vote however they want), but I imagine such a player wouldn't last long anyway Tali could instead have a sort of complementary ability to Legion's. Instead of changing the votes, Tali can decide, once per game, to protect one player from being voted off. She must tell the GM that she plans to use this ability before voting is over for the day, but can wait until votes start to gather if she wishes. Players who voted for that person will be returned to the "not yet voted" list so they can vote for someone else.
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Post by pelassarias on Jan 30, 2018 3:22:59 GMT
Two more ideas: Evil Clone could mostly keep the old ability, but add in that if the target role is eliminated at night (by spies or Garrus), then they get to take over the role with whichever alignment they choose. The Clone can keep quiet if they so choose (and not impersonate someone right away) but if they want to take a role, then they must hint at that role. A Clone who switches from spy to good cannot explicitly state that they have switched, nor give away the identities of the spies (though they can vote however they want), but I imagine such a player wouldn't last long anyway Tali could instead have a sort of complementary ability to Legion's. Instead of changing the votes, Tali can decide, once per game, to protect one player from being voted off. She must tell the GM that she plans to use this ability before voting is over for the day, but can wait until votes start to gather if she wishes. Players who voted for that person will be returned to the "not yet voted" list so they can vote for someone else. I love both ideas. This will give the EC a better chance of using their ability, and with Tali's new ability this will be useful for both the Heroes and Spies. Diana's change sounds like a good idea as well. This doesn't seem OP since she can lie if she's a spy, so it'll be up to the Heroes to decide whether she is trustworthy.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 30, 2018 10:49:38 GMT
Players who voted for that person will be returned to the "not yet voted" list so they can vote for someone else.
Wouldn't it be better if she could just block it so no one is eliminated that day? Otherwise, if people are still allowed to use their vote then they might transfer their focus to Tali straight away, although I suppose they won't necessarily know who she is. I just feel that it is a bit too obvious is someone is getting the most votes and then Tali swoops in and stops it. How about at the beginning of the round she has to opt to use her ability but this will only be announced by the GM at the end, when no one is eliminated? So if people have been coming under fire the previous round that she wants to keep safe, then she would activate her ability but if the voting goes differently from how she imagined, then she may end up saving someone she didn't want to. Presumably she could also end up saving herself.
To give an example from the last game. Tali and Kasumi were spies and people had been voicing suspicions the previous round. So Tali opts to activate her ability. Then someone else came in and made a case for voting off someone else, like Garrus, but he is really a hero so Tali the spy inadvertently saved a hero. Conversely, if Tali is a hero and comes under fire, she could activate her ability to keep herself safe in the next round but instead the votes go towards an actual spy. So she inadvertently saves a spy.
So she doesn't actually have any control over who her ability saves from being voted off, which hopefully would even out the benefit so it doesn't favour a spy too much and she has to exercise a degree of skill (and luck) over when is the best time to use it. How does that sound?
I like the Karin Chakwas idea.
Also how about a Jack role? Once per game she can direct all votes to a player that she thinks is a Cerberus spy. If she is right then the player is eliminated but if she is wrong then she is eliminated instead. Of course this would only work with a good Jack but since this would be a floating role I suppose it would be okay for her to be always good because of the penalty if she gets it wrong. Or we can come up with an alternative for an evil Jack.
The main problem I see for the Evil Clone is how to write the narrative so it is not obvious who they are to either the heroes or the spies. If they are replacing someone either indoctrinated by the spies or shot by Garrus in the night, then they will be aware that their attack was not successful and thus the target had to have been someone who has been Cloned. It would also mean that it would be better if the Clone had to opt for the role they wanted to impersonate at the beginning of the game and could not change. After all I thought the real reason they were allowed to switch each day cycle was if their target was eliminated overnight but if they can still assume the role then that is no longer a problem. Then if the role they had targeted is eliminated either during the day or the night, the GM would PM them giving them details of the alignment and asking if they want to keep to it or switch. If they opt to switch and their target was a spy, then they are not told who the spies are. If they opt to keep the alignment then they are told the spies they are meant to help. Alternatively, the Clone remains neutral throughout the game. They are not given a list of spies but simply have to work it out for themselves who they wish to support.
If they opt for the role at the beginning of the game, then it would be possible for them to clone someone who was eliminated the first night.
Also would it be possible for them to change alignment if they had opted for one of the guaranteed good roles? So if they had opted for Liara and she was eliminated, would the result be written "Liara?" so everyone is aware that Liara could potentially now be evil instead of good? If the Clone was always neutral then Clone Liara could carry on investigating people the same as the real one but just choose how to use the information, whether to help the heroes or the villains.
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Post by Moonae on Jan 30, 2018 11:48:39 GMT
Thinking about it, I'm not sure how well the Evil Clone really works with the new rules. The point of the role seems to mainly be to add a bit of uncertainty to the game. Say the clone is impersonating Garrus, and Garrus hasn't used his ability yet. There are two main ways this plays out:
Clone Garrus gets eliminated, Real Garrus is still in play with their ablility. Real Garrus gets eliminated, Clone Garrus becomes the real deal and with their ablility is still in play.
Either way, there is a Garrus in the game who is able to shoot someone. With the original rules the twist comes from the fact that we the other heroes won't know whether to trust Garrus anymore. Even if it is the Real Garrus who survived (or a Clone Garrus who's chosen to be good), they will have a hard time convincing the other players, because there's always a chance that they are evil. This is a unique element in the game that this role brings.
But with the new rules we already don't know whether to trust Real Garrus from the start, since Real Garrus could potentially be Evil Garrus as well. So the unique situation that the clone brings is no longer unique. I suppose the fact that the clone could hypothetically take on a previously evil role and turn to the good side could be interesting? But nobody's trusting each other to begin with, though.
As I see it the most interesting thing that could happen would be if the clone started out as one of the spies and then turns good. I suggested way back when that the other spies wouldn't be able to attack a turned clone at night, but have to convince the others to vote for them during the day. I assume the clone would also not be allowed to outright say "Hey, guys, I used to be a spy clone but now I'm good and those guys over there are the other spies", either. This would put both groups in a tough spot, since they would have to argue against each other without revealing where their knowledge comes from. However, that is one specific situation that is not likely to come up very often and beyond that the clone doesn't add much in any other situation.
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Moonae
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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moonae
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Moonae on Jan 30, 2018 11:49:24 GMT
Also, how would an Evil Chakwas work??
I like the Jack idea.
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obsidiangryphon
ObsidianGryphon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Jan 30, 2018 13:21:33 GMT
Well I've been thinking. I've allowed myself to spend far too much time on this game during work hours. So I think I'll just sit out a round or so. Focus on other things. Besides. It seems my poor management has made people upset. I'm sorry about that. Gervaise will make a great gm! Thanks Space, for running the game. Looking forward to clip some of that shagginess when you pop back.
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