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Post by cloud9 on Mar 9, 2017 0:24:14 GMT
He's not incomprehensible he just a screwup and I believe that everything happens for a reason and all the signs tell him to stop like the spirit he rescued from mages to tell him to let go, and the orb is destroyed to prevent him to tear down the Veil after Corypheus was defeated. All of that is gearing towards him to let go and look at his mistakes and atone for them by helping the elves. Again, this is working with your sensibilities and the narrative you've made in your own mind. Without a doubt, the story that Gaider/Weekes/rest of the team have laid out for us to play through follows a different narrative with totally different outcomes and reasons for why the orb broke or how Solas will continue his journey in the next game. Any of us can think up reasons for why a thing happened a certain way, but that doesn't make it universal. Every gamer is different you can't expect everyone to think the same thing.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 9, 2017 0:27:41 GMT
See, we would think that, being the player and working within our own current sensibilities. But then you take into account that Solas is thousands of years old, was there at the start of it all, and saw everything first-hand. He clearly has knowledge we do not, and is acting on that information. Our tender little protagonist might be badass enough to save the world from a sudden threat, and might even be able to find solutions if we were in the know, but truly? There's no way the Inquisitor could come close to having the understanding Solas does about any of it. I doubt the answer to saving anyone, or even everyone, is just that Solas take his ball (lol) and his people and go somewhere else. Casting it as poor writing when we are still missing half the chapters is kind of silly. Story's not done yet. He's not incomprehensible he just a screwup and I believe that everything happens for a reason and all the signs tell him to stop like the spirit he rescued from mages to tell him to let go, and the orb is destroyed to prevent him to tear down the Veil after Corypheus was defeated. All of that is gearing towards him to let go and look at his mistakes and atone for them by helping the elves. ... Yet the whole world gears up towards something big, and Flemeth/Morrigan has been talking of great change awaiting the realm ever since game 1. And so far it would seem that this is directly related to what Solas is doing. That doesn't necessarily means that he'll manage to realize his plan 100%. But - like you said - "everything happens for a reason" and those reasons don't necessarily hint towards 'letting go of the past' or 'protecting the status quo'. Whatever will happen, the world WILL change in some major ways. Many signs tell us so, including the one where Flemeth calls Inquisitor a "harbinger of new age".
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Post by Natashina on Mar 9, 2017 23:15:27 GMT
SolasJust wanted to mention that I recently got tagged as Thread Mom by some of the players in the Romance thread. You're Thread Daddy of the Blanketfort. We should form a club or something.
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Post by Solas on Mar 9, 2017 23:21:14 GMT
Solas Just wanted to mention that I recently got tagged as Thread Mom by some of the players in the Romance thread. You're Thread Daddy of the Blanketfort. We should form a club or something. lmao! cute Threadparents (Ltd)!
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Post by Natashina on Mar 9, 2017 23:25:49 GMT
Solas Just wanted to mention that I recently got tagged as Thread Mom by some of the players in the Romance thread. You're Thread Daddy of the Blanketfort. We should form a club or something. lmao! cute Threadparents (Ltd)! It's a labor of love.
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Post by uirebhiril on Mar 9, 2017 23:28:41 GMT
Every gamer is different you can't expect everyone to think the same thing. This is true, but my point is that as players, we don't have enough of the story yet to make that call of what Solas "could" have done "instead." We're still missing a few chapters and have incomplete information on the narrative. Opinions on the story and where it's going is one thing, but calling it poor writing overall is not precisely fair at this point. I would be surprised if Solas didn't have some other overriding reason for what he is doing, but I am still on the fence about if I want that to completely absolve him as an antagonist. It's rare you get one that owns what he is doing and understands the ugly side of it. Solas being a puppet in this would kind of cheapen the whole thing. And yet... :/
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 0:45:13 GMT
Every gamer is different you can't expect everyone to think the same thing. This is true, but my point is that as players, we don't have enough of the story yet to make that call of what Solas "could" have done "instead." We're still missing a few chapters and have incomplete information on the narrative. Opinions on the story and where it's going is one thing, but calling it poor writing overall is not precisely fair at this point. I would be surprised if Solas didn't have some other overriding reason for what he is doing, but I am still on the fence about if I want that to completely absolve him as an antagonist. It's rare you get one that owns what he is doing and understands the ugly side of it. Solas being a puppet in this would kind of cheapen the whole thing. And yet... :/ I actually kinda hope that DA4 doesn't have Solas doing what he's doing simply because he also wants to save the world from something (i.e. Blight, Ancient Mayhem awakening, etc.). I'm hoping it really is just that he wants to restore the world to the way it was in order to save magic and bring order back to the way it is supposed to be. Probably because if there was a reason like 'I'm tearing the Veil down because otherwise the Blight is all up our butts', then a huge level of collision and clash is now gone. I mean, how many posts have we seen just in this new thread saying that they would be more understanding/forgiving if it was something like that? I like that maybe there is no real righteously obvious choice and there's a giant level of moral grayness. I guess it would somehow take away some of that gray for me if that was the case.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 10, 2017 2:00:02 GMT
This is true, but my point is that as players, we don't have enough of the story yet to make that call of what Solas "could" have done "instead." We're still missing a few chapters and have incomplete information on the narrative. Opinions on the story and where it's going is one thing, but calling it poor writing overall is not precisely fair at this point. I would be surprised if Solas didn't have some other overriding reason for what he is doing, but I am still on the fence about if I want that to completely absolve him as an antagonist. It's rare you get one that owns what he is doing and understands the ugly side of it. Solas being a puppet in this would kind of cheapen the whole thing. And yet... :/ I actually kinda hope that DA4 doesn't have Solas doing what he's doing simply because he also wants to save the world from something (i.e. Blight, Ancient Mayhem awakening, etc.). I'm hoping it really is just that he wants to restore the world to the way it was in order to save magic and bring order back to the way it is supposed to be. Probably because if there was a reason like 'I'm tearing the Veil down because otherwise the Blight is all up our butts', then a huge level of collision and clash is now gone. I mean, how many posts have we seen just in this new thread saying that they would be more understanding/forgiving if it was something like that? I like that maybe there is no real righteously obvious choice and there's a giant level of moral grayness. I guess it would somehow take away some of that gray for me if that was the case. Welp... considering that Solas's plan so far seems to involve destruction at global level, there's A LOT of grey to add there. Like - he has to have a REALLY good reason to be wanting to change the life as Thedosians know it...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 2:07:30 GMT
Welp... considering that Solas's plan so far seems to involve destruction at global level, there's A LOT of grey to add there. Like - he has to have a REALLY good reason to be wanting to change the life as Thedosians know it... 'this world has to end' could still be figurative or literal depending on if the new plan brings the same level of 'burn in raw chaos' that the original plan did. But, three games have set up that magic is depleting, three games have shown that change our PCs enact doesn't last, and DA:I did give us more food for thought concerning Spirits and how they are handled. So it isn't completely unfathomable that perhaps there are beings who believe that there does need to be something drastic done to fix things or produce lasting change.
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Post by uirebhiril on Mar 10, 2017 3:11:01 GMT
Welp... considering that Solas's plan so far seems to involve destruction at global level, there's A LOT of grey to add there. Like - he has to have a REALLY good reason to be wanting to change the life as Thedosians know it... "I fouled up the world by raising the Veil and want to put it back to its normal, natural, not-damaged state" is a pretty good reason, if you think about it. It's not a reason much of the current Thedas would necessarily agree to, but he's trying to fix what is fundamentally broken. How to patch things up so no one has to die and the world isn't hanging on in its broken state is the big question though. I'd be kind of surprised if it's an either/or choice at the end, because it's clear that current Thedas is in some serious trouble and never mind the hole in the sky or all the crap going down with elven gods. Something has to happen. It's not going to ever be "life as we knew it" again.
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Post by close2myheart on Mar 10, 2017 6:07:17 GMT
If 'healing up the world' requires you to side with the Evanuris, would you do it? It's sorta like a 'reset' button. No Darkspawn, spirits and 'people' are able to get along fine with each other without incident. But 'some' of the Evanuris will be there too.
So... would you do this? Or you'd rather not press that button, hoping for the best and hope the next hero can solve Thedas' problem later?
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Mar 10, 2017 7:26:44 GMT
If 'healing up the world' requires you to side with the Evanuris, would you do it? It's sorta like a 'reset' button. No Darkspawn, spirits and 'people' are able to get along fine with each other without incident. But 'some' of the Evanuris will be there too. So... would you do this? Or you'd rather not press that button, hoping for the best and hope the next hero can solve Thedas' problem later? Depends on which Evanuris we're talking about, imo. And what the circumstances are surrounding the "healing", of course.
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Post by CapricornSun on Mar 10, 2017 18:50:06 GMT
Sunny, the stuff you bring us makes me squee! Thank you so much! Awww, thank you! And you're welcome.
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Post by CapricornSun on Mar 10, 2017 18:59:30 GMT
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Post by Sifr on Mar 11, 2017 0:43:02 GMT
If 'healing up the world' requires you to side with the Evanuris, would you do it? It's sorta like a 'reset' button. No Darkspawn, spirits and 'people' are able to get along fine with each other without incident. But 'some' of the Evanuris will be there too. So... would you do this? Or you'd rather not press that button, hoping for the best and hope the next hero can solve Thedas' problem later? This would be too close to the Assassin's Creed 3 ending for my taste, where " reasons" forced Desmond to side with Juno. Although what if one (or more) of the Evanuris have reformed after being trapped in the Fade for the past several thousand years? Would add more moral complexity to the situation, that some are not as cut-and-dry "evil" as Solas painted them as, or regret having played at being false Gods and seek to atone for those actions? Solas may have the same blinders on regarding the Evanuris as Morrigan once said about Flemeth; "Oft it seems her bitterness has coloured her memories".
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Post by CapricornSun on Mar 11, 2017 17:40:31 GMT
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Post by spiritofsolace on Mar 12, 2017 4:13:23 GMT
Do most people even feel like Solas dilemma as it is currently framed very grey? I think people relate to Solas' grief and see him as a grey character without necessarily finding the situation itself to have much grey. To me it seems grey, but only because I find leaving the veil as it is to be wrong. So in my view Solas is in a situation where there is no morally right action. But I don't think that most people find those that are most harmed by the veil to be worth even considering. Like they don't really care at all about ghosts and magic people, they just don't. And I am not sure bioware can do anything to change that. So that is why they might have to have Solas' goals being ultimately about saving the world. I think people would be more onboard for that. And really I think it would be boring storytelling for us to already know everything pertinent about Solas' plans. DA4 imo is going to be rather dull if we truly know everything already.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Mar 12, 2017 4:46:00 GMT
Do most people even feel like Solas dilemma as it is currently framed very grey? I think people relate to Solas' grief and see him as a grey character without necessarily finding the situation itself to have much grey. To me it seems grey, but only because I find leaving the veil as it is to be wrong. So in my view Solas is in a situation where there is no morally right action. But I don't think that most people find those that are most harmed by the veil to be worth even considering. Like they don't really care at all about ghosts and magic people, they just don't. And I am not sure bioware can do anything to change that. So that is why they might have to have Solas' goals being ultimately about saving the world. I think people would be more onboard for that. And really I think it would be boring storytelling for us to already know everything pertinent about Solas' plans. DA4 imo is going to be rather dull if we truly know everything already. I can't speak for everyone, but Solas certainly changed my perspective on the whole demon and spirit thing in the DA games. I think all the people who like Cole (and there seem to be rather a lot) might also have warmer, fuzzier feelings for spirits after DAI. So, it might not be so difficult as you think. But of course none of us has access to hard data about how many players made what decisions in DAI that might possibly influence the outcome of the story in hypothetical future DA games. I am quite sure we know pretty much nothing about Solas' plans. I wouldn't worry about that! A lot of people think they know exactly what he's going to do: tear down the Veil and reshape the world of the ancient elves, and maybe he will, still, but I doubt it. All we really know about his plans now that he doesn't have the Orb is that h e is willing and probably able to take extreme measures to accomplish his goals, but I think there is room for a befriended/romanced Solas to try to find a less destructive way.
We don't really know what he means by "restoring the world of his people." It could be more figurative; it could be more literal. But if he does literally plan to shape the ancient world back into what it once looked like, he's got to know that won't work extremely well. He'd be relying on his memories and the memories of other surviving ancient elves to do it, and he himself tells us that memories are flawed and vary from person to person. So using memories to rebuild what once was is probably going to be disappointing.
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Post by CapricornSun on Mar 12, 2017 10:19:37 GMT
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Post by cloud9 on Mar 12, 2017 11:43:02 GMT
That's a good article you linked, and I hope many people take the time to read it. I'm married to a black woman, have black family, and have many close friends who are black (I can say that and be serious), so the story of these experiences is familiar to me. Still, I'm white, so I certainly can't claim I've lived in their shoes. The article didn't offer anything unfamiliar or new to me, but it's another account to hopefully broaden my own perspective. As to Solas, I still disagree about him being racist. I don't think he can be compared to real world humans who have lived their entire lives in a world with their own kind. Racism in our world is inexcusable. It's incomprehensibly stupid. Solas is from a world in which elves lived alone, or rather alone except for the spirits. The world was fundamentally different when he went to sleep. His only contact with the present races has been through dreaming, and a single year of waking life. He awakens to find the world greatly diminished, and largely filled with violence and injustice. He's not impressed, and he can't really be blamed. Still, during his time with us, he seeks to aid all those in need, praises the honorable, and has no patience for pettiness or cruelty. And he does all of this with no regard for race. Also, he never claims the elves of old were in any way morally superior to the present peoples. He compares them, of all things, to Tevinter. He led, possibly started, a civil war to free the Evanuris' slaves. The elves' nobles and rulers were no better than the Magisters of Tevinter, according to Solas. Racists don't generally make a habit of denigrating their own kind, but rather elevating them. I'll not get sidetracked in endless speculation about Fen'Harel's war itself, but focus on the main points. When it ended, he fundamentally changed the world. He put up an artificial construct that diminished everyone living, and everyone born thereafter. He's not being racist in saying that the peoples of the Dragon Age are "mean", "narrow-minded", "lesser" (not a word he uses), or any similar such thing. He's right. They are. He did it to them by creating the Veil. He can't fix them, but he can fix the world and those born into it in the future. It's also important to consider Solas' personal history. It explains how he can both feel compassion and empathy for this world and simultaneously plot its demise. It doesn't justify it, but it explains it. Solas cares deeply. This is a person who had everything. The Evanuris elevated him to their ranks. He'd become a "god", and he discarded it to free the slaves. That effort turned against him, ultimately, and the resulting conflict seems to have killed Mythal, and nearly destroyed the world itself. With no alternatives, he created the Veil, and destroyed his world and people. Who knows how many people he killed in the process? Can you imagine the heartbreak and guilt, and how that might twist someone's motivations over the course of centuries? Solas isn't a racist. He's a deeply caring person who is unimaginably scarred. He's trying to fix the world he broke by returning it to its natural state. He can't really fix what he did, though, and he will destroy himself if he kills another world full of people. He acknowledges as much at the end of Trespasser in conversation with a friendly/romanced character. Solas is a ball lost in high weeds, but he's not a racist. The elves are an allegory and correlated to black people because our ancestors created the earlier civilizations, and we were enslaved by Europeans and live under a system of racism that has plagued us to this day. And everything is Solas' fault and he had the nerve to point finger on other people and not looking at himself for his mistakes.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 12, 2017 12:29:43 GMT
The elves are an allegory and correlated to black people because our ancestors created the earlier civilizations, and we were enslaved by Europeans and live under a system of racism that has plagued us to this day. And everything is Solas' fault and he had the nerve to point finger on other people and not looking at himself for his mistakes. The elves were inspired by sad tales of many oppressed groups or nations. And if you want to claim that it's an "allegory of specific people"... well, I'd like to point out that this is a double-edged sword - because the Elvhen civilization was ruled by tyrants and their lackeys, who have enslaved most of people and almost destroyed the whole world. This ain't a black and white thing.... no pun intended. Ironically, Elvenhan is more than likely an allegory - or more like cautionary tale - for our whole modern civilization in case things went in bad direction, not ancient people and past history. As for "everything being Solas's fault"... you're going to have to elaborate. For what we know, Solas has saved everyone from Evanuris and whatever they've had in store for the world after Mythal was murdered.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 12, 2017 12:43:02 GMT
Do most people even feel like Solas dilemma as it is currently framed very grey? I think people relate to Solas' grief and see him as a grey character without necessarily finding the situation itself to have much grey. To me it seems grey, but only because I find leaving the veil as it is to be wrong. So in my view Solas is in a situation where there is no morally right action. But I don't think that most people find those that are most harmed by the veil to be worth even considering. Like they don't really care at all about ghosts and magic people, they just don't. And I am not sure bioware can do anything to change that. So that is why they might have to have Solas' goals being ultimately about saving the world. I think people would be more onboard for that. And really I think it would be boring storytelling for us to already know everything pertinent about Solas' plans. DA4 imo is going to be rather dull if we truly know everything already. Nah... I think what we know is a mere tip of the iceberg I am curious though how much we're going to know at the very end of DA4. I recall the interview with David Gaider for VGS and how he said that initially DAI was supposed to be twice as long and DA4 will basically be (or contain) the 2nd part for Inquisition... but he also said that - whether they'd cut the plot in half or not - the pace of lore reveal is about the same. Now, I don't really think that he said that exactly literally, or that things haven't changed somewhat since that, but that means that if they haven't divided the plot... at the end of original DAI, after the supposed fight with Solas... we'd know about the same as after Trespasser ?
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Mar 12, 2017 18:19:53 GMT
The elves were inspired by sad tales of many oppressed groups or nations. And if you want to claim that it's an "allegory of specific people"... well, I'd like to point out that this is a double-edged sword - because the Elvhen civilization was ruled by tyrants and their lackeys, who have enslaved most of people and almost destroyed the whole world. This ain't a black and white thing.... no pun intended. Ironically, Elvenhan is more than likely an allegory - or more like cautionary tale - for our whole modern civilization in case things went in bad direction, not ancient people and past history. As for "everything being Solas's fault"... you're going to have to elaborate. For what we know, Solas has saved everyone from Evanuris and whatever they've had in store for the world after Mythal was murdered. Agreed. As it seems now, Solas was put between a rock and a hard place.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 19:29:23 GMT
The elves were inspired by sad tales of many oppressed groups or nations. And if you want to claim that it's an "allegory of specific people"... well, I'd like to point out that this is a double-edged sword - because the Elvhen civilization was ruled by tyrants and their lackeys, who have enslaved most of people and almost destroyed the whole world. This ain't a black and white thing.... no pun intended. Ironically, Elvenhan is more than likely an allegory - or more like cautionary tale - for our whole modern civilization in case things went in bad direction, not ancient people and past history. As for "everything being Solas's fault"... you're going to have to elaborate. For what we know, Solas has saved everyone from Evanuris and whatever they've had in store for the world after Mythal was murdered. Agreed. As it seems now, Solas was put between a rock and a hard place.
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CapricornSun
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Currently in D&D RPing hell and I love it! *v* <3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Currently in D&D RPing hell and I love it! *v* <3
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by CapricornSun on Mar 13, 2017 19:55:22 GMT
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