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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 22:14:13 GMT
Possible Mass Effect: Andromeda spoilers, but Solas-related: Geeky-Jez thinks she found a message from a certain elf on a datapad in-game: Edit: Obligatory Top Page Solas Picture link
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Post by ellawyn on Mar 25, 2017 1:16:34 GMT
HEY GUYS WHAT'S HAPPENING. College started up again and I forgot this place existed.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 25, 2017 5:34:13 GMT
HEY GUYS WHAT'S HAPPENING. College started up again and I forgot this place existed. Not much is really happening - the whole forum is emptier than usual. I guess a lot of people are off playing MEA I'm still waiting for my copy. --- Anyway, I've been reading an article on Minrathous on DA wiki and there's some interesting trivia there: "According to the Canticle of Exaltations, when the Maker has returned to the world, Minrathous will be the place where Andraste will forgive mankind's transgressions and restore the original harmony." Restore the original harmony... huh - is this what I think it is?
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Post by uirebhiril on Mar 25, 2017 8:55:17 GMT
Just popping in to say how much I really appreciated this thread leading up to and after DAI. It was "home" through that whole game cycle, and I'm kind of missing that with MEA. We were/are such good people! I'm maybe a third of the way done with MEA and already wondering when we'll hear Dragon Age news...
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 25, 2017 16:06:56 GMT
I'm hoping that all the stuff in the Canticle of Exaltations is just a coincidental red herring on the part of the writers. Otherwise, there seems no alternative to declaration that "Solas is the Maker" and has been nudging mankind in his required direction from the Fade all this time. The thing is that the Canticle of Exaltations was Drakon's "inspiration" to go out and conquer in the name of the Maker, enforcing his version of the Chant on everyone else, which ultimately led to the subjugation of mages across Thedas, so if it did come from Solas it would seem another example of things not turning out as he intended. My own personal belief is that Drakon's vision was entirely the invention of his own sub-conscious, probably encouraged by the stories he had heard about Hessarian's conversion and divine mission from his Tevinter non-mage Altus father.
I think Minrathous is going to be very significant in some way to Solas' plans; likely because it was built over a remnant of the elven civilisation and there are ancient secrets to be found in its depths, probably in the old Temple of Razikale, now the location of its Circle of Magi.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 25, 2017 16:43:45 GMT
I'm hoping that all the stuff in the Canticle of Exaltations is just a coincidental red herring on the part of the writers. Otherwise, there seems no alternative to declaration that "Solas is the Maker" and has been nudging mankind in his required direction from the Fade all this time. The thing is that the Canticle of Exaltations was Drakon's "inspiration" to go out and conquer in the name of the Maker, enforcing his version of the Chant on everyone else, which ultimately led to the subjugation of mages across Thedas, so if it did come from Solas it would seem another example of things not turning out as he intended. My own personal belief is that Drakon's vision was entirely the invention of his own sub-conscious, probably encouraged by the stories he had heard about Hessarian's conversion and divine mission from his Tevinter non-mage Altus father.
I don't really think it's a good idea to think that just because someone got a few things right or half-right, it is automatically proof that there's Maker or "Solas is Maker"... literally. Things usually don't work like that - and in DA it seems that there are many details scattered across many cultures that people got right, among a lot of stuff they got wrong. It happened to dwarves, it happened to Dalish and yes - it happened to people and the Chantry. So I wouldn't dismiss everything that was written by Drakon or the Canticles. Apparently even this drivel from Avvar conspiracy theorist contains some grains of truth, given that we know something akin to 'snake people' actually may exist. Doesn't mean that "Moon Men" exist, or are anywhere close to what Helsdim believes it is. Also - I don't think I'd put Drakon's deeds or sins squarely on Solas's shoulders. That's like saying Solas (or Hawke) are responsible for all of Corypheus' action, or Andraste for all of Chantry actions. All of these people have agency after all. I kinda wonder if we're going to see Razikale - and if so, as more than just corrupted Archdemon. Though... the whole codex about screams in Razikale's temple in Frostback Basin doesn't make it seem like things are all well. Which is interesting considering Razikale hasn't been known to be corrupted yet.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 20:49:38 GMT
Well the Canticle of Exaltations can be correct without being straightly literally. And I am hoping this is the case if DA goes that route. Morigan easily takes the role of Andraste thanks to having Mythal's soul now and considering DA:4 will largely be played in Tevinter (so long as the map stabbing isn't some sort of red herring on the Dev's part) then I believe we are going to get some cool Arlathan lore and hidden ruins beneath the city of Minrathous.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 25, 2017 20:53:41 GMT
What I was trying to say was that Drakon claimed the Canticle was a prophesy given to him by the Maker/Andraste of what was to come in the future. So if it was intended to be a prediction of the future by the writers, then someone who knew what would happen must have given it to him. Since it involved the opening of the Veil in order to restore balance to the world, that was a rather strange thing for Drakon to be imagining considering according to all the Chant we have been shown so far, the two worlds of Thedas and the Fade were always meant to be separated by the Veil. Plus it seems to predict the Titans arising as a result, which is even stranger as no one knew they existed until the Descent, except Solas of course. However, I wasn't saying that made Solas responsible for Drakon's sins, since clearly Drakon decided for himself how he should act upon his "vision", simply that if Solas was behind it, he clearly would not have wanted things to turn out as they did. To be honest there is no reason why Solas would have given anyone a vision of the future because what would be the point? He certainly didn't envisage dropping the Veil resulting in universal harmony; he specifically tells us that he expects it to result in a fiery chaos. Mind you Andraste did tell Drakon that he should remember the fire because he must pass through it to be forged anew but that was to happen before his crusade and sounded more like experiencing what the Warden did in the Temple of Sacred Ashes. The group who seem to have got a more accurate idea of what was to happen were the Order of Fiery Promise. They thought the current world was so broken the only answer was to cleanse it with fire and begin again. Now that sounds like what Solas was telling us.
I'm hopeful that next game we will finally find out exactly what happened with the old gods. Why did they all fall silent at the same time? Do they really only get corrupted when the darkspawn break through or were they already corrupted and it is their corrupted song that attracts the darkspawn? What is their connection, if any, with the Evanuris? On the one hand I think they are connected with the Forgotten Ones, since we found that codex from one of them beneath the Temple of Razikale, but on the other I wonder if the dragons were the split soul of the Creators that went into Uthenera after their other half was imprisoned. There has to be some reason why Solas was so worked up about the thought of the Grey Wardens seeking out the last of the old gods and why Flemeth/Mythal seemed so intent on "rescuing" one of them.
Anyway, I'm hoping that Razikale is located actually under Minrathous. Calpernia could sense something strange under the city and there has to be some particular reason why Minrathous seems to have a special protection so it has never fallen to an enemy force.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 21:12:56 GMT
Flemeth/Mythal/Flemythal could have also been the harbinger of Drakon's visions. Remember she loves to prod and nudge. She also has no problem giving the most vague and cryptic information imaginable...
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Post by CapricornSun on Mar 26, 2017 6:56:18 GMT
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 26, 2017 20:09:37 GMT
Welp - another day, another bizarre dream. This time I dreamed that someone has released an comic - one officially approved by Bioware - where we could follow sort of an alternate resolution to Solas's arc (strangely, released before the actual game). All I remember is that it was black&white, poorly drawn and with very strange plot, that was nonetheless an absolute drivel. Like: Twilight, but worse. I even remember going on forum and me and people complaining "what the hell Bioware and the author were thinking!?". I woke up quite annoyed
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 26, 2017 20:22:30 GMT
Drakon pre-dated Flemeth so she wasn't behind his vision. If Mythal was involved then it was from the Fade and according to Flemeth she was just a wisp of her former self when she responded to her call, so it seems unlikely she would have been giving visions to people before that. Solas could have given a vision from the Fade but there would seem no point to his doing so. The Maker, if he does exist, had no reason to be giving a special vision to Drakon and it would seem that the Chantry conveniently ignored that it ran contrary to the accepted belief that the Maker stopped communicating and interacting with humankind after the death of Andraste. Besides which, if this was a genuine vision of the future then everything is predestined to happen in a certain way, which may be true so far as the writers are concerned but makes everyone just a puppet. I like to have the illusion that my PC is able to influence the course of events by their actions. This is why I hope that the Canticle is just a big red herring and any similarities to events that have either happened or may possibly happen in the future is just coincidence.
What the Canticle did explain was why people were so quick to proclaim you were the Herald of Andraste. It is true that at the beginning of the Canticle, the description says the Veil opened up like a great eye, which calls to mind the hole in the Veil at the site of the explosion. Then the Canticle speaks of seeing Andraste standing in the opening and the soldiers reported seeing the figure of a woman behind you as you walked out of the Fade, so people started remembering Drakon's prophesy and were convinced that you were the Herald sent to announce Andraste's imminent return. However, as we later discovered, that was all nonsense. The orb caused the hole, the anchor was not the gift of the Maker and the woman in the Fade was not Andraste.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 26, 2017 20:30:50 GMT
Drakon pre-dated Flemeth so she wasn't behind his vision. We do know that many strange beings have been contacting and whispering to humans since time before the Blight - heck, it was mysterious whispers that have led people to releasing the Blight on the realm. And there's no telling who's whispering what to whom or why and there seem to be more players on the chess board than just Flemeth or Solas. Like... who was giving Leliana her visions? What's the deal with Chantry sisters that gave us Perseverance? How do Titans factor into everything?
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Post by CapricornSun on Mar 27, 2017 4:19:19 GMT
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 27, 2017 21:29:23 GMT
I don't deny that someone or many beings have been whispering things from the Fade (or the Void)and encouraging the listener to take certain actions. Something was clearly speaking to Andraste, which she believed to be a being she called the Maker. The thing is if a spirit suggests to someone that a certain train of events will come about if they just start the process by taking a particular action, does that make it a vision of the future or a self fulfilling prophesy? If the former, then you cannot avoid your fate, if the latter then you can change your fate by refusing to follow the suggestion.
It is rather like the Mirror of Galadriel. That gave a vision of a possible future but she advised that it would be unwise to use it as a determiner of action. Later on in LOTR Denethor has a vision of the present through the palantir, where he sees ships with black sails heading up river towards Minas Tirith. He despairs because it looks like more forces coming to bolster those already besieging his city, whereas in reality it is Aragon who keeps the black sails until the last moment to fool the enemy. Both are cases of visions being given to a character that are open to interpretation, not a vision of a fate that cannot be changed.
So there are any number of beings hanging out in the Fade and the Void that like messing with people's minds, sometimes just malicious, sometimes to further their own ends, but that is all it is. As for Leliana's vision, according to the Guardian that was all in her own mind through her desire to be important. Perseverance was likely connected to some sort of faith spirit. Since the idea of the Titans has only just been introduced, I dare say there is a great deal more to be learned about them, yet they are totally absent from the Chant. I still wonder why they referred to the final location of the Titan as the Wellspring, when that is what Andraste also calls the Maker. (Important clue or another red herring?)
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Post by Gwyvian on Mar 29, 2017 23:44:19 GMT
GUYS!!
I totally didn't know we were changing forums (I think I missed something big?), but I found my way back into the fold! I packed my tinfoil hat and all my crazy theories! I was hoping to move into the Jaal thread like I did the Blanketfort, but it's just not the same... we are still the same, right? I mean, sure, my entire profile is from scratch and all my correspondences are gone, but hey! We can rebuild.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Mar 30, 2017 1:17:59 GMT
Hi Gwyvian, We haven't changed much, really - missing some people still, I think, and very quiet at the moment since many are enjoying ME:A but you can bet this place will liven up again as soon as there's any hint of DA4 or Solas from the devs.
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Post by Gwyvian on Mar 30, 2017 1:30:29 GMT
Hi Gwyvian, We haven't changed much, really - missing some people still, I think, and very quiet at the moment since many are enjoying ME:A but you can bet this place will liven up again as soon as there's any hint of DA4 or Solas from the devs. That's what I like to hear! Yeah, I'm really preoccupied with MEA (Jaal) right now, but the Blanketfort was always about more than just Solas.
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Post by Dazzle on Mar 30, 2017 13:58:06 GMT
Just popping in to say how much I really appreciated this thread leading up to and after DAI. It was "home" through that whole game cycle, and I'm kind of missing that with MEA. We were/are such good people! I'm maybe a third of the way done with MEA and already wondering when we'll hear Dragon Age news... Oh me too. God I need some news. MeA will keep me entertained, but I'm a Dragon Age girl to my core.
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Post by chibivhenan on Mar 31, 2017 0:57:55 GMT
Drakon pre-dated Flemeth so she wasn't behind his vision. We do know that many strange beings have been contacting and whispering to humans since time before the Blight - heck, it was mysterious whispers that have led people to releasing the Blight on the realm. And there's no telling who's whispering what to whom or why and there seem to be more players on the chess board than just Flemeth or Solas. Like... who was giving Leliana her visions? What's the deal with Chantry sisters that gave us Perseverance? How do Titans factor into everything? Are we sure he pre-dates flemmeth? I was always under the idea that she was Andraste. Well the orginal version of her anyways. I also like the idea that Shartan was either an agent of Fen'harel or Solas himself. He created the veil to seal away the evanuris and most likely the blight. The magisters broke that prison and let some of whatever the blight is out. Mythals wisp went to Andraste for a lot of reasons and solas who either woke up to try and fix his mess or sent an angent in his stead. (It was 1000 years ago and we know he has been asleep for 1000 years according to a dev file. The veil was created waaaaaay before that (3800 years ago? I'm to tired to look it up) Thus halamshial being an attempt at trying to recreate what was lost. So Solas could of tried to compromise back then and give them a chance even though he wouldn't of thought of them as real back then either, but perhaps more so than now.. It failed. I have a more I depth theories on everything but this is just a gist cause I'm on my phone and eating ice cream. also flemmeth and Andraste have the same hat and Shartan is shown in what looks like ancient even armor in that one chantry pic. just my random thoughts. I could be way off. *nom nom ice cream*
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Post by Gwyvian on Mar 31, 2017 1:35:18 GMT
We do know that many strange beings have been contacting and whispering to humans since time before the Blight - heck, it was mysterious whispers that have led people to releasing the Blight on the realm. And there's no telling who's whispering what to whom or why and there seem to be more players on the chess board than just Flemeth or Solas. Like... who was giving Leliana her visions? What's the deal with Chantry sisters that gave us Perseverance? How do Titans factor into everything? Are we sure he pre-dates flemmeth? I was always under the idea that she was Andraste. Well the orginal version of her anyways. I also like the idea that Shartan was either an agent of Fen'harel or Solas himself. He created the veil to seal away the evanuris and most likely the blight. The magisters broke that prison and let some of whatever the blight is out. Mythals wisp went to Andraste for a lot of reasons and solas who either woke up to try and fix his mess or sent an angent in his stead. (It was 1000 years ago and we know he has been asleep for 1000 years according to a dev file. The veil was created waaaaaay before that (3800 years ago? I'm to tired to look it up) Thus halamshial being an attempt at trying to recreate what was lost. So Solas could of tried to compromise back then and give them a chance even though he wouldn't of thought of them as real back then either, but perhaps more so than now.. It failed. I have a more I depth theories on everything but this is just a gist cause I'm on my phone and eating ice cream. also flemmeth and Andraste have the same hat and Shartan is shown in what looks like ancient even armor in that one chantry pic. just my random thoughts. I could be way off. *nom nom ice cream* I'm pretty sure that it's more complicated than that, just because according to Solas the Evanuris were simply really powerful mages, but not actual gods; Mythal possessed Flemmeth and that was (as far as I understand it) the only way she could have a semblance of vengeance for both of them. Remember, Flemmeth seemed to indicate that Mythal's spirit was very weak when she came to her, so I have trouble imagining her whispering to anyone and machinating, I could see her trying to find a suitable host, but in that form I think she was just trying to find a way "back in" with a compatible host. I don't think Flemmeth's polar difference to the Chantry counts as good evidence because religions have a tendency to bloat into totally unrecognizable organizations compared to their origins, but there usually is at least a kernel of truth I think, if not literal truth, in legends, so going by Andraste's stories her personality and her goals are just too different from my image of Flemmeth. Mythal's driving force has always been vengeance, but it seems more personal vengeance than an overall grand crusade to destroy Tevinter, I mean, Andraste almost coincidentally scooped up elven support as I understood it, they were never her main goal. So, taking information degradation across generations into account, I can see how it would sort of fit, but it doesn't fit enough for me to believe it. As for Halamshiral and recreating the past - if Solas is any guide, I think they really, really didn't care that much. They were both Evanuris themselves, Solas mourned who the people were before, more than who they were at the time of Halamshiral and the Dales, but Mythal died before that, it was the catalyst that down the line lead to the Elvhen's disappearance as they were before and their decline into modern elves, so I think she cares even less in some ways (not to say she doesn't care for elves at all, it's just not her priority). Flemmeth says if you challenge her in the Fade that Mythal was weak and an echo of who she had been in life, she doesn't exactly explain herself for being negligent of her people clearly, but I got the impression that all that was left of her was the driving force of justice/vengeance for what was done to her, all her machinations seem totally random at first glance, but if you look at the big picture, she's been influencing your characters to lead up to a point where (just maybe) the other Evanuris would be somehow exposed so she can finally destroy them. Solas puts an end to that, but then, it seems almost like he becomes her new host in some ways. Gotta dash, but I'll continue this later...
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 31, 2017 20:12:13 GMT
When considering these matters, you need to distinguish between Flemeth the woman and Flemeth/Mythal the being that she became. Drakon definitely pre-dated Flemeth the woman. Andraste could have been a previous host of Mythal but Flemeth may not even be aware of that fact. If Mythal did inhabit Andraste that could account for many things that were strange about her. If Andraste was also an unsuccessful attempt by Mythal to re-establish her presence in Thedas, that could account for her obsession with vengeance and her greatly weakened state when she approached Flemeth. However, there may be no connection with Mythal at all and Andraste was in contact with a completely different spirit.
There is the possibility that Flemeth the woman could have been a descendant of Andraste. Andraste's only true children were daughters and the line resulting from the only surviving daughter, who romanced a mage from Tevinter, also only ever had daughters. There does seem to be some sort of significance to this legend that will no doubt be made clear in the future.
As for Shartan, I have repeatedly said that I will be very disappointed if he turns out to be anything other than a genuine elven hero in his own right, possibly inspired by stories of the "trickster warrior who fought against tyrants" that we now know to have been Solas, and then used these tales in turn to inspire his own followers; hence these stories becoming interwoven with his own in the version passed onto the Chantry that appears in his Canticle. However, if he does have any direct connection with Solas, it would be as a follower of his rather than Fen'Harel himself. The reasoning behind this is simple. Shartan died trying to rescue Andraste from the bonfire and his body was burned by Tevinter. This would make it rather hard for Solas to be able to claim that he is the same person he always was since he would have to have acquired a new body. The story of Shartan's sacrifice in defence of his friend and ally is found not only in the Canticle of Apotheosis, where his identity is concealed behind the title "the Liberator" but also in the stories of the Dalish back in DAO where we are told "our heroes died in the bonfires of Tevinter".
However, it is quite possible that the legendry sword of Shartan, Glandivalis, that was given to him by Andraste and originally belonged to her mother, might well have once belonged to Fen'Harel. The word "Glandival" is found in a text taken from the Temple of Mythal that refers to the events surrounding Fen'Harel's war against the Evanuris. It would appear to mean either "believe" or "faith". So Glanidvalis would mean either "Blade of the Believer" or "Blade of the Faith". Andraste bestowed the sword on Shartan at the same time she proclaimed him her Champion and laid on him the commission to "free our people forever". This would seem to suggest that either Andraste was aware of its earlier history or that the words put into her mouth by the Dalish actually came from the earlier folktale and were spoken by Mythal to Fen'Harel. According to the Dalish the faith that Andraste and Shartan shared was that of freedom for all and their joint crusade against Tevinter was in order to free all the slaves, not to spread the religion of the Maker or at least not the version of the faith that the Chantry promote, which of course was that of Drakon, not Andraste.
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Post by ellehaym on Apr 1, 2017 0:27:39 GMT
In a way, Flemythal is still helping the People as Asha'bellanar, albeit in a more quid pro quo way (or is it?) than she may have during the peak of the Elvhen civilization.
It was said that after Marathari's clan was slaughtered, she went to forbidden place in the forest in order to seek out vengeance and soon enough the people who killed her clan were killed by Sylvans, etc. I do believe that's where she made her deal with Asha'bellanar and we all saw what happened years in the future.
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Gwyvian
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Post by Gwyvian on Apr 1, 2017 0:41:18 GMT
*snip* As for Shartan, I have repeatedly said that I will be very disappointed if he turns out to be anything other than a genuine elven hero in his own right, possibly inspired by stories of the "trickster warrior who fought against tyrants" that we now know to have been Solas, and then used these tales in turn to inspire his own followers; hence these stories becoming interwoven with his own in the version passed onto the Chantry that appears in his Canticle. However, if he does have any direct connection with Solas, it would be as a follower of his rather than Fen'Harel himself. The reasoning behind this is simple. Shartan died trying to rescue Andraste from the bonfire and his body was burned by Tevinter. This would make it rather hard for Solas to be able to claim that he is the same person he always was since he would have to have acquired a new body. The story of Shartan's sacrifice in defence of his friend and ally is found not only in the Canticle of Apotheosis, where his identity is concealed behind the title "the Liberator" but also in the stories of the Dalish back in DAO where we are told "our heroes died in the bonfires of Tevinter". *snip* Definitely not Solas himself I think, I believe it was mentioned that after erecting the Veil he went into sleep, he only woke up a couple years before the events of DAI. So he missed out completely on the downfall of the Elvhen.
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