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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 19, 2018 17:44:05 GMT
If a 1 year old tagged along on our quest and knew only how to do two things, would you really be surprised? This is a good point, made more clear by the fact that, if you choose to make him human, he has more agency in Trespasser. Throughout most of DAI, Cole is defined by what he is, which makes sense considering what he is. However, I will add that the fandom exacerbates the feeling of him being a plot device by the way he's used in fanfic and so forth. I've been guilty of it myself. It's just so easy and convenient as a way to drive things forward, or create conflict or spur resolution.
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Post by phoray on Mar 19, 2018 18:06:13 GMT
However, I will add that the fandom exacerbates the feeling of him being a plot device by the way he's used in fanfic and so forth. I've been guilty of it myself. It's just so easy and convenient as a way to drive things forward, or create conflict or spur resolution. Huh. People use Cole in Fanfiction to blather people's inside thoughts? That's interesting, I haven't used him that way at all. Writing is funny. I think a lot of the characters suffer from being frozen in their dialogue order. Here I am, fiddling around delaying the final fight with Cory, and Varric and Cass start talking (banter) about beginning of the game stuff- events in Kirkwall. A conversation that would make sense if they'd only just started hanging out together but makes zero sense after Hawke shows up and leaves/dies and they've argued about several things. I like to think Cole as a character suffers from this being frozen in time banter wise, and he actually does get better going forward not blathering folks' thoughts out loud even before Trespasser.
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Post by warden on Mar 19, 2018 20:30:45 GMT
because is another forgettable character from Inquisition crew, bland, boring and has nothing to add, and more important if you want to make this character have some sense or whatever on why is he in the game then you actually are obliged to read a book and even with that still feels like an unnecessary add-on.
So, yes, as far as i'm concerned I don't give a damn about him.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2018 7:35:27 GMT
ecause is another forgettable character from Inquisition crew, bland, boring and has nothing to add, and more important if you want to make this character have some sense or whatever on why is he in the game then you actually are obliged to read a book and even with that still feels like an unnecessary add-on. That describes Blackwall more than Cole tho.
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Post by warden on Mar 20, 2018 13:21:16 GMT
ecause is another forgettable character from Inquisition crew, bland, boring and has nothing to add, and more important if you want to make this character have some sense or whatever on why is he in the game then you actually are obliged to read a book and even with that still feels like an unnecessary add-on. That describes Blackwall more than Cole tho. Well, that's why I said "another forgettable character from Inquisition crew", because the other ones have similar descriptions. Though I should point that Cassandra and the "bastardized version" of Varric are at least decent.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 20, 2018 14:23:49 GMT
because is another forgettable character from Inquisition crew, bland, boring and has nothing to add, and more important if you want to make this character have some sense or whatever on why is he in the game then you actually are obliged to read a book and even with that still feels like an unnecessary add-on. So, yes, as far as i'm concerned I don't give a damn about him. Yes. He's forgettable, literally.
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Ey
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: lovelypumpkin_
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Post by lovelypumpkin on Mar 20, 2018 15:44:30 GMT
I'm very neutral about Cole. He gives me weird vibes, but he is meant to be a "weird" character. He never did anything wrong but to me he had no significance to my play-through. As for anyone actually disliking him... I don't think that's a thing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 20, 2018 17:03:21 GMT
because is another forgettable character from Inquisition crew, bland, boring and has nothing to add, and more important if you want to make this character have some sense or whatever on why is he in the game then you actually are obliged to read a book and even with that still feels like an unnecessary add-on. So, yes, as far as i'm concerned I don't give a damn about him. Yes. He's forgettable, literally.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 20, 2018 18:09:51 GMT
As for anyone actually disliking him... I don't think that's a thing. Well, you're wrong there. I've read posts from several people who consider what he does to be "mind rape" and vehemently dislike him because of it. Those people do not recruit him. I explained it more thoroughly in my first post in this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2018 19:21:39 GMT
That describes Blackwall more than Cole tho. Well, that's why I said "another forgettable character from Inquisition crew", because the other ones have similar descriptions. Though I should point that Cassandra and the "bastardized version" of Varric are at least decent. Varric is completely and utterly useless of a character in DA:I though.
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Post by warden on Mar 20, 2018 19:40:44 GMT
Well, that's why I said "another forgettable character from Inquisition crew", because the other ones have similar descriptions. Though I should point that Cassandra and the "bastardized version" of Varric are at least decent. Varric is completely and utterly useless of a character in DA:I though. I agree.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 20, 2018 20:33:02 GMT
Well, that's why I said "another forgettable character from Inquisition crew", because the other ones have similar descriptions. Though I should point that Cassandra and the "bastardized version" of Varric are at least decent. Varric is completely and utterly useless of a character in DA:I though. Agreed. Didn't even like him in DA2 so it sucked to be stuck with him for yet another game.
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Yermogi
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Yermogi on Apr 12, 2018 19:54:05 GMT
I didn't read the Dragon Age books (and have no intention to- I enjoy the games as they are, I don't need more supplements to them) but I enjoyed Cole in DA:I. I understand why people dislike him, I do- but from all our interactions with spirits (and I clarify here, spirits, not demons) both in and out of the Fade, Cole is really just doing what a spirit does. Spirits are effing weird. Even when they're just trying to be 'good' and 'help' people, they go about it in strange ways. Expecting them to be anything else is an exercise in futility. Cole is someone you either like or you don't. I happen to have liked him, but again, he's a very different kind of character and there's lots of pros and cons to him.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 13, 2018 3:50:44 GMT
Cole is someone you either like or you don't. This statement makes me think you don't actually understand why people dislike him, which you didn't elaborate on in your post. We're not talking about personality here, like with someone like Sera, who I would say is "you either like or not." The reason people dislike Cole is directly related to his function as a spirit. I wouldn't say that people expect Cole to be anything else. They just don't want Cole to do his thing with them. I don't think that's unreasonable. And even if Cole did do his thing, one of the issues is that he does it in public, for everyone to hear.
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Pathfinding my way through life.
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Post by DragonEffect on Apr 13, 2018 7:23:57 GMT
Cole is someone you either like or you don't. This statement makes me think you don't actually understand why people dislike him, which you didn't elaborate on in your post. We're not talking about personality here, like with someone like Sera, who I would say is "you either like or not." The reason people dislike Cole is directly related to his function as a spirit. I wouldn't say that people expect Cole to be anything else. They just don't want Cole to do his thing with them. I don't think that's unreasonable. And even if Cole did do his thing, one of the issues is that he does it in public, for everyone to hear. I'm sorry, but why are you being so judgemental? I've read like two posts of yours criticizing other people's posts on the thread when they haven't even addressed you, nor quoted you. If the person doesn't want to elaborate their thoughts, it's their problem. They're not derailing the thread or offending anyone by acting that way. Not everyone has to write a dissertation on the topic so their posts will "be worthy of consideration". Each member expresses themselves in the forum of their own accord. Some people just want to post their opinion and leave. Others want to discuss the topic at length. If they want to be concise, it's their problem. You don't have to call them out for that. On the subject of Cole, I have to thank Arvaraad for their interpretation on the character. It presented spirits in a different light and helped me see them as not being the sanctimonious creatures DA lore often portrays them. I hadn't considered spirits might work the same way as demons when it comes to interacting with the world beyond the Fade. There are indeed lots of similarities between them, since spirits or whisps who have no desire to leave the Fade simply don't interfere with the physical world in any way. If the spirit is meddling in the affairs of the Living, then, even if their intentions toward people are "pure" - so to speak -, their GOAL is not. They want the same thing as demons do: to obtain some "personal reward" for themselves by meddling into people's affairs. And that reward is this emotional sustenance which gives them strength. Or, as Arvaraad put it, they FEED on our emotions, whether they are aware of it on a conscious level or not. All in all, it makes a lot of sense to say spirits also prey on the living. Although, the results of their actions often look beneficial to the subject on the receiving end. And this is the ONLY reason why they are distinguished from demons by mages. Curiously, this makes me see spirits as being closer to humans in a certain way. They're just creatures serving their own basic needs. Just as humans have to breathe, eat and sleep, spirits who have the urge to leave the Fade must feed on emotions one way or another. Which makes the morality of their actions look like something that goes beyong good and evil. It's mere survival. This line of reasoning makes me understand Cassandra's stance against Cole remaining in the Inquisition better. And indeed, there was an alternative ending where, should Cole's personal quest fail, he is possessed by Corypheus and does become a threat to the Inquisition, due to a spirit's inherently malleable nature. Hence why Cassandra is right to recommend his departure. You just can't trust a spirit. Today, they're one thing. Tomorrow, they might be the very opposite of what they were.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 13, 2018 8:41:27 GMT
I'm sorry, but why are you being so judgemental? I've read like two posts of yours criticizing other people's posts on the thread when they haven't even addressed you, nor quoted you. If the person doesn't want to elaborate their thoughts, it's their problem. They're not derailing the thread or offending anyone by acting that way. Not everyone has to write a dissertation on the topic so their posts will "be worthy of consideration". Each member expresses themselves in the forum of their own accord. Some people just want to post their opinion and leave. Others want to discuss the topic at length. If they want to be concise, it's their problem. You don't have to call them out for that. I don't think I was being judgemental. I commented on the person's post because I felt free to do so, just as you felt free to do so with mine. That's how these forums work. If people don't want their thoughts commented upon (not that that applies to Yermogi), or referenced, then they shouldn't post here. I also don't see why you felt the need to defend them. I stand by my post to Yermogi. I didn't feel that the statement I quoted jived with the arguments presented for why some people dislike Cole.
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Yermogi
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Yermogi on Apr 13, 2018 14:17:03 GMT
Cole is someone you either like or you don't. This statement makes me think you don't actually understand why people dislike him, which you didn't elaborate on in your post. We're not talking about personality here, like with someone like Sera, who I would say is "you either like or not." The reason people dislike Cole is directly related to his function as a spirit. I wouldn't say that people expect Cole to be anything else. They just don't want Cole to do his thing with them. I don't think that's unreasonable. And even if Cole did do his thing, one of the issues is that he does it in public, for everyone to hear. That's my ultimate point though. It's not unreasonable for people to not want him to do that. But he's a SPIRIT. He's going to do that whether you want him to or not. It's what he does. That's how he functions. All the reasons listed for why people don't like him are perfectly valid, but ultimately it's an "all or nothing" deal. You're either ultimately fine with it, or you're not. That's why I said "you either like him or you don't." Ascribing human motivations and reasoning to a spirit doesn't work, and even if you make Cole more "human", it's still very, VERY much a work in progress. As a player, I accept that and I'm fine with it. Others clearly aren't. And that's fine too. EDIT: I also didn't expound in my previous post because I thought I said it clearly enough. Obviously I didn't. But to sum it up (although it's a bit redundant given the text above): Cole is a Spirit. Cole does not understand complex mortal social issues, traditions, norms, etc. He doesn't understand them because of what he is. Expecting him to behave as a mortal is unrealistic, and it's also unrealistic to expect him to understand why some of the things he does is not okay. Even when you work with him on this stuff, he still fails to remember NOT to do something a lot, because he's a Spirit, and telling him NOT to do some of this stuff is to ignore the fact that he's a Spirit. So, again, you're either ultimately fine dealing with (or at least willing to overlook) his weird mind-powers and spirit abilities, or you aren't. I don't feel that either is wrong.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 13, 2018 14:57:05 GMT
Yermogi Thanks! There aren't many Cole detractors in this thread -- I'm not one, either, mostly posting for "the other side" to have that viewpoint in the thread and because I can understand the view and even sympathize. I wonder what the divide on this issue is between the player and the character roleplay. In my first post in the thread, I stated that my Inquisitor isn't too bothered by him because Cole doesn't use his abilities on him all that much. (I believe Cole says the Anchor is too bright and makes it difficult.) I think it's one thing to consider all of this stuff as the player, but something else to also consider the roleplay, especially if you are playing a non-mage who won't have experience with this stuff.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 13, 2018 21:28:09 GMT
I didn't read the Dragon Age books (and have no intention to- I enjoy the games as they are, I don't need more supplements to them) but I enjoyed Cole in DA:I. I understand why people dislike him, I do- but from all our interactions with spirits (and I clarify here, spirits, not demons) both in and out of the Fade, Cole is really just doing what a spirit does. Spirits are effing weird. Even when they're just trying to be 'good' and 'help' people, they go about it in strange ways. Expecting them to be anything else is an exercise in futility. Cole is someone you either like or you don't. I happen to have liked him, but again, he's a very different kind of character and there's lots of pros and cons to him. If you aren't aware of what happened in Asunder, Cole's character arc pretty much revolved around this. Cole spent most of the novel as a corrupted Spirit of Compassion, unaware of what he really was (believing himself to be a "Ghost") and mercy-killing desperate mages under the mistaken belief that it was the only way he could "help" them. From what we learn in Inquisition, it seems that Cole's inability to help or save the real Cole from dying, perverted his purpose and lead him to begin acting more like a demon (similar to what happens to Solas' friend, Wisdom). Demons are often parasitical in nature and "feed" off the emotions/lives of those they prey upon. Cole similarly claims in the novel to have felt more "tethered" to the world after he took the life of someone in pain, suggesting he was likewise drawing off of his victims like a demon would. Cole only rediscovered his true nature/purpose at the end of the book, which then reasserted itself.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 13, 2018 23:39:25 GMT
I mean, he talks in riddles and looks like that dude that will shiv you to get his next hit of meth.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 15, 2018 12:07:57 GMT
I mean, he talks in riddles and looks like that dude that will shiv you to get his next hit of meth. Which he most likely gets from the Mad Hermit in the Brecilian Forest.
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Quickpaw
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Tuldabar
XBL Gamertag: Shadow Quickpaw
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Post by Quickpaw on Jun 15, 2018 3:19:04 GMT
I (and by extension, most of my Inquisitors) don't have much of a problem with Cole's abilities or personality due to the Legilimency comparison. I.E, Cole is like Queenie (a Legilimense), not Snape (capable of legilimency).
To explain: Legilimency, in the HP universe, is the ability to read someone else's mind. Most wizards have the potential to learn how to do it actively, but a few individuals are born with the innate trait of it being something they have to actively try to turn OFF. Snape, for example, has to put effort into reading Harry's thoughts; whereas Queenie Goldstein has to put effort into NOT reading Newt's. "Sorry, I can't help it. People are easiest to hear when they're hurting." Which, given Cole's capacity, is fitting.
As for whether spirits actively sabotage their own purpose... I don't think they do it deliberately, or that its their nature to do it deliberately. They just have a different perspective on reality that doesn't always translate well in the real world. If they do do something that causes more trouble than it solves it usually is completely unintentional. It is only when they become a "demon" (spirit whose purpose has been perverted) that they actively try to create situations that they can "feed" on.
There's a similar sentiment by Atton in KotOR: Sith Lords when he's talking about Jedi passively reading other people's thoughts without meaning to. He doesn't like it, but he more or less accepts it's not really something they can turn off without significant effort or training. He still tries to stay away from them regardless.
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The whole universe is...
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 17, 2018 16:55:16 GMT
I have a few problems with Cole but here are two.
First, his approach to resolving pain. He kills out of compassion and I really don't like that. I think that's a perversion of compassion. If your life has fallen apart or if you're suicidal like the people he appears to, you're in complete chaos. There are too many problems at once to handle, maybe you can't even resolve one, you feel like there's just no way out. You might say death is compassionate and what you want. But overwhelmingly people who survive life's tragedies are glad they didn't die. Bringing some order to the chaos of their life was the better solution and what they actually wanted. He gets better at this by the end of Asunder and in DA:I, but the instinct to kill out of compassion is still there and forms the base of his motivation in-game. Compassion should lead you to act but not kill IMO.
Second, Cole's next impulse is to destroy whatever (or whoever) it is that causes someone pain and that's a problem like we see in his personal quest. Compassion (if it really is so) can cut many ways, and destroying something doesn't mean you'll be better off.
Compassion is a wonderful ideal- but it's hard to put into practice and that's what he demonstrates.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 17, 2018 17:04:41 GMT
I have a few problems with Cole but here are two.
First, his approach to resolving pain. He kills out of compassion and I don't like that. I think that's a perversion of compassion. If your life has fallen apart or if you're suicidal like the people he appears to, you're in complete chaos. There are too many problems at once to handle, maybe you can't even resolve one, you feel like there's just no way out. You might say death is compassionate and what you want. But overwhelmingly people who survive life's tragedy are glad they didn't die. Bringing some order to the chaos of their life was the better solution and what they actually wanted. He gets better at this by the end of Asunder and in DA:I but the instinct to kill out of compassion is still there and forms the base of his motivation in-game. Compassion should lead you to act but not kill IMO.
Second, Cole's other impulse is to destroy whatever it is that causes someone pain and that's a problem like we see in his personal quest. Compassion, if it really is so, can cut many ways and destroying something doesn't mean you'll be better off.
Compassion is a wonderful ideal- but it's hard to put into practice and that's what he demonstrates. "Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit."
"Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world. "
The spirits could have very hard moments in the mortal world undeniable. It works differently than the Fade. The idea, virtue that they represent, doesn't exist in that pure, simple form like in the fade. Higher spirits can learn. Cole and Justice for example able.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 19, 2018 19:13:14 GMT
If a 1 year old tagged along on our quest and knew only how to do two things, would you really be surprised? This is a good point, made more clear by the fact that, if you choose to make him human, he has more agency in Trespasser. Throughout most of DAI, Cole is defined by what he is, which makes sense considering what he is. However, I will add that the fandom exacerbates the feeling of him being a plot device by the way he's used in fanfic and so forth. I've been guilty of it myself. It's just so easy and convenient as a way to drive things forward, or create conflict or spur resolution. That's exactly what the game's writers did. Cole is little more than a device for exposition on other character's feelings.
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