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Post by dutchsghost7 on Jan 28, 2018 3:58:28 GMT
When ANTHEM releases in Mar 2019 it would have taken 7 years to produce the product. Is it reasonable for a video game developer in this day and age to develop a product for more than 4 years? From my experience most video games that had a "development hell" turned out to be disappointments.
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 28, 2018 7:30:14 GMT
Dragon Age: Origins was also in development for approximately seven years as well, so that game must have been a disappointment as well. There are articles out there talking about how development started in 2002 and it was released in 2009.
The Andromeda team also released The Citadel as a "farewell to the franchise" in 2013 so right now it has been six years.
I am pretty sure if they didn't delay the game to 2019 you would be making a poll saying that they should have delayed the game to make sure whatever problem you want to find is fixed.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 28, 2018 9:24:04 GMT
Nearer 6 years. New IP? Sure.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jan 28, 2018 11:36:30 GMT
Several years for new IP or very major sequel/new installment? Sure. But that's at maximum.
Anthem taking several years is alright, though I'm not sure if it is ideal. Dragon Age having up to several years between titles (not same as development focus) is not so good. I was hoping for a few (2018-2019 max, instead of now more likely 2020-2021). Mass Effect possibly, for all we know, having up to several years between titles might be a franchise killer, unless they really go all-in with making it right.
I prefer a few years max between titles but if you have to take several to make a new IP or a reboot, that's not terrible.
FFXV was approx a decade and that's ridiculous, but it should be noted that oftentimes when development goes past several years (and often sooner), its probably due to the project being practically restarted (Versus XIII vs XV).
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Post by simit on Jan 28, 2018 15:33:53 GMT
If anything dutch if it's not a "critical" success you got fuel for the fire im sure you will make.
As previously stated 3, 4 or even 5 years is pretty decent for a existing IP sequel, 6 or 7 year is also pretty decent for a new IP an going by the limited viewing we have seen they sure as hell came a long way in there usage of FB3
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jan 28, 2018 18:41:51 GMT
The actual time in development is irrelevant.
What is relevant is how that time was spent, and when the hype began.
I don't see anything wrong with BioWare's position with either of the above cases. They haven't changed engines during the process. They learned a lot about FB2 from DAI, and hopefully a lot from MEA. They have time to polish a beta, and actually get a real beta-test with a decent chunk of the community. Then polish some more and release.
There was some attrition. Some people quit, some were probably encouraged to leave. Corey Gaspur died. The process of making this game was and is a bumpy road. That is no indication of the quality of the final product.
There are plenty of legitimate things to criticize them for. Nitpick at BioWare for things that are their failing, but time of development is just reaching.
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Post by spacev3gan on Jan 28, 2018 19:06:24 GMT
No way Anthem will take that long. Chances are they are merely using some material that had been created for the previous Mass Effect and Dragon Age games years ago. Saying that game has been in development since 2012 can be quite vague, and I would bet they are just recycling some past material or perhaps using stuff that they had scrapped and saying "since 2012" for the sake of stating that Bioware did not all of sudden decide to compete with Destiny. If someone had bet that a year before Andromeda came out, Bioware did not have a game whatsoever, not even a story, they might have won. And I don't see it being different this time around with Anthem.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 28, 2018 20:39:27 GMT
Horizon:Zero Dawn, a new IP that was a critical and popular success, started development in 2011 and released in 2017.
Zelda:Breath of the Wild, while not a new IP, was essentially written from scratch, started development in 2011 and released in 2017.
Cyberpunk 2077, a new IP, started development in 2011 and hasn't shipped yet.
I don't know why 2011 was such a big year for starting new IP, but clearly 6+ years is not that unusual for new AAA IP.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 29, 2018 21:02:09 GMT
Mark my words, its style of gameplay, directors, the "guard" if you will was most likely changed once or twice throughout all this time. Like Andromeda, expect what you see when it ships to be the product of maybe the last 3 years or so rather than being one vision they built towards since the release of ME3.
I don't think this was originally pitched internally at EA as a Destiny-like game or even a "play with your friends" type of game as it has become now. That was probably a reaction to Destiny being marketed so well and doing so well for quite a while, and it came from up top at EA, not within BioWare. When Casey left in 2014, I think something had happened. Similarly, the next time we see this game in motion I expect it to look different from last year's E3 demo because Aaryn left shortly after that and that, to me also indicates some sort of significant shift, or maybe EA being unhappy with reactions and interest in the product alongside Andromeda being a fiasco.
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Post by linksocarina on Jan 29, 2018 21:06:28 GMT
7 years too long...
2 years too short...
Is 4 just right for you people yet?
Maybe you need to try game development before you gauge what is a good amount of time to develop something...
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Post by SwobyJ on Jan 29, 2018 21:23:28 GMT
7 years too long... 2 years too short... Is 4 just right for you people yet? Maybe you need to try game development before you gauge what is a good amount of time to develop something... I like 2-4 depending on the game and its ambition, but in some cases I don't freak out about several. I think annual releases are stupid though can be profitable in the meantime (expansions okay, but not 'full games') and I might get worried about 2 years for a major title, but several years is also concerning in many cases. And then it depends on whether it is 'active development' or just 'time between releases in a franchise'. Much of the concern is the game development, but there's also the marketing - the longer between installments, and the longer the development is taking, the more the game design has to seriously impress people because a franchise has likely lost more core players than otherwise, and technology standards has changed at least somewhat in the meantime. 4 is often just right, yes. That doesn't mean its always the case, but I'd bet that EA surely doesn't want to spend several years of active development on a game, with possible exception to MMOs (and that might kinda intersect with Anthem's design, so we'll see). Final Fantasy XV taking a decade to get out isn't a good thing. They know it wasn't a good thing. It led to a huge part of SquareEnix's financial future coming to depend on it, and thankfully they (with mixed results) pulled through successfully. Try game development? No one needs to do that to see that a studio can't take so long to put out a product to sell. That's not the case in other sorts of studios and its not the case for video games. Anthem taking several years to make isn't proof of its quality. But it is an indicator that EA is hinging a lot on it, and its success or failure could determine the quality, planning, or even existence of future products, like in franchises we already know. This wouldn't likely be so drastic if Anthem was a 3-4 year game. Fewer salaries, at least. If/when big publishers can pump out annual releases to great profit, they go ahead and do that, but that doesn't mean the game is good. If publishers have several years of costs to put out a release, the want for profit is probably going to be higher. This might mean a bigger and better game than many annual releases (see: Assassin's Creed's lethargy until maybe recently, and sports games that barely change for the clear better), but it might mean monetization out the eyeballs that effectively ruin the game design and player enjoyment. We've seen EA be happy with games in franchises every 2-3 years with the box price and some DLC. We've seen them expand into loot boxes, but in a separate and ignorable mode. I'm curious whether they'll be so happy to do the same for Anthem and DA4, but I don't think they will. Both will have more time (and so often time = money) behind them, and so even more of a financial interest that could affect the game. Even the FFXV example is making up for the whole wait and costs associated with it, through a DLC plan that has a lot of mixed reactions instead of cheer that one would hope for sold expansions.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 29, 2018 22:51:17 GMT
Dragon Age: Origins was also in development for approximately seven years as well, so that game must have been a disappointment as well. There are articles out there talking about how development started in 2002 and it was released in 2009. The Andromeda team also released The Citadel as a "farewell to the franchise" in 2013 so right now it has been six years. I am pretty sure if they didn't delay the game to 2019 you would be making a poll saying that they should have delayed the game to make sure whatever problem you want to find is fixed. I could've sworn that the Edmonton team did the Citadel DLC.
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 30, 2018 3:33:23 GMT
Dragon Age: Origins was also in development for approximately seven years as well, so that game must have been a disappointment as well. There are articles out there talking about how development started in 2002 and it was released in 2009. The Andromeda team also released The Citadel as a "farewell to the franchise" in 2013 so right now it has been six years. I am pretty sure if they didn't delay the game to 2019 you would be making a poll saying that they should have delayed the game to make sure whatever problem you want to find is fixed. I could've sworn that the Edmonton team did the Citadel DLC. You are correct, I had Andromeda on my mind.
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Post by JokeDealer on Jan 30, 2018 4:25:37 GMT
If it were longer than ten years, then I'd be worried. Seven years isn't bad, especially when one considers that this is a new IP and Bioware wants this game to be successful.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jan 30, 2018 12:02:04 GMT
7 is unlucky number.
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Post by river82 on Jan 30, 2018 12:22:55 GMT
When your studio is responsible for possibly three separate IPs, seven years is not good. It's why Montreal really needed to nail Andromeda, because now Anthem's taken 7 years (2012-2019) and is commanding most resources of the company, Dragon Age will be at least 2 or 3 after that which puts it at 7 years if you're lucky (and that's not a new IP), and then if they embark on a new Mass Effect game, factoring in additional time thinking on how to "revive" it, well the dev cycles between games within each series are getting out of hand.
Square took a God-awful long time between Final Fantasy games (partly because they kept rebooting the suckers) but they only handle one big IP these days, and even then they struggle to release more than one major game per console gen. It's a shame because back in their hey day Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy, Secret of Mana, Xenogears, but these days only Final Fantasy. A statement on the current shape of game development. But basically they haven't been able to develop more than one series because they spend so god damn long on each game.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jan 30, 2018 12:32:11 GMT
When your studio is responsible for possibly three separate IPs, seven years is not good. It's why Montreal really needed to nail Andromeda, because now Anthem's taken 7 years (2012-2019) and is commanding most resources of the company, Dragon Age will be at least 2 or 3 after that which puts it at 7 years if you're lucky (and that's not a new IP), and then if they embark on a new Mass Effect game, factoring in additional time thinking on how to "revive" it, well the dev cycles between games within each series are getting out of hand. Square took a God-awful long time between Final Fantasy games (partly because they kept rebooting the suckers) but they only handle one big IP these days, and even then they struggle to release more than one major game per console gen. It's a shame because back in their hey day Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy, Secret of Mana, Xenogears, but these days only Final Fantasy. A statement on the current shape of game development. But basically they haven't been able to develop more than one series because they spend so god damn long on each game. Don't forget Kingdom Hearts, so 2 games As for the topic as hand, once the dev cycle gets into double digits, 10+ years then I get worried.
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Post by Raga on Jan 30, 2018 17:20:52 GMT
I am not really pleased with the idea of this game, but to be fair isn't this sort of a Pixar thing, wherein some high-ups sit around brainstorming and came up with a bunch of ideas and it might be years before anybody did anything with those ideas other than draw some concept art or write up some other planning paperwork?
So, sure, the *idea* might be seven years old, but have they been modeling and coding and such for 7 years? I find this doubtful.
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Post by uprightshark on Jan 30, 2018 17:35:18 GMT
Square took a God-awful long time between Final Fantasy games (partly because they kept rebooting the suckers) but they only handle one big IP these days, and even then they struggle to release more than one major game per console gen. It's a shame because back in their hey day Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy, Secret of Mana, Xenogears, but these days only Final Fantasy. A statement on the current shape of game development. But basically they haven't been able to develop more than one series because they spend so god damn long on each game. Square is a good example of a house that used to produce games at a rapid pace, and as you suggest have slowed down (as many others). I wonder if this is not a sign of the times, in that games are becoming much more technically cumbersome to produce and equally costly given that complexity. There is also a higher demand for excellence from the community, where companies have fallen due to a poor title. What we believed was an acceptable time between releases may have changed, because the industry is changing. Meaning, it's not only dedicating more resources to get a project done, but a financial risk that it represents to the company if it flops. The reason I bring this is up, is that I wonder how much the time factor with Anthem relates to actual production, or is Bioware still stinging corporately from previous less than successful drops under the Bioware name. If they release Anthem now, will the market (rightfully or wrongfully) punish them for MEA in Anthem sales, versus using time as a sales strategy, by distancing Anthem from MEA. One could argue that delay adds to the cost, but they may weigh that against the current community and project that it is still the least costly option. Don't think this is a far stretch when you read the many forums and see the new Bioware haters out there. Personally I do not believe it is justified, but that is my point of view. That said, it is clear that Anthem will either heal or break BW! Just a thought
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jan 30, 2018 17:57:04 GMT
Square took a God-awful long time between Final Fantasy games (partly because they kept rebooting the suckers) but they only handle one big IP these days, and even then they struggle to release more than one major game per console gen. It's a shame because back in their hey day Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy, Secret of Mana, Xenogears, but these days only Final Fantasy. A statement on the current shape of game development. But basically they haven't been able to develop more than one series because they spend so god damn long on each game. Square is a good example of a house that used to produce games at a rapid pace, and as you suggest have slowed down (as many others). I wonder if this is not a sign of the times, in that games are becoming much more technically cumbersome to produce and equally costly given that complexity. There is also a higher demand for excellence from the community, where companies have fallen due to a poor title. What we believed was an acceptable time between releases may have changed, because the industry is changing. Meaning, it's not only dedicating more resources to get a project done, but a financial risk that it represents to the company if it flops. The reason I bring this is up, is that I wonder how much the time factor with Anthem relates to actual production, or is Bioware still stinging corporately from previous less than successful drops under the Bioware name. If they release Anthem now, will the market (rightfully or wrongfully) punish them for MEA in Anthem sales, versus using time as a sales strategy, by distancing Anthem from MEA. One could argue that delay adds to the cost, but they may weigh that against the current community and project that it is still the least costly option. Don't think this is a far stretch when you read the many forums and see the new Bioware haters out there. Personally I do not believe it is justified, but that is my point of view. That said, it is clear that Anthem will either heal or break BW! Just a thought One of these articles did mention how the production of Anthem basically started as a development hell clusterfuck, with the team being convinced they were utterly screwed. Then as time went on and EA threw more personnel from other projects, like DA and SWTOR, it became more hopeful. So I suspect steady progress was not being made these entire 7 years.
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Post by simit on Jan 30, 2018 21:13:16 GMT
Far as i know squares engine was a total bitch, as far as it being ditched after ff15 an them just going with the unreal engine for future products, ff15 was released an imo again it wasnt that bad a game, i actually really enjoyed it an then with constant free updates an the dlc it, again imo, is prob one of the better FF games.
Shit happens it that simple, im sure the devs an even the publishers wish it never but thats life, square coulda done a EA after release an tidied up with some patches then stopped all support but they never, they stuck with it supported it with constant patches, free updates an dlc for a full year after release then decided to support it again announcing another year of free updates an dlc, gotta respect them for that tbh.
Suppose end of day it all about what your willing to put up with etc etc an for me, regardless what critics/youtubers an comment sections have to say on the subject, i have yet to play a bad BioWare game, every single one could be improved, some are better than others an every single one has something i dislike but none are by far a bad game experience, mediocre prob worst thing i could say an thats leveled at ME:A where i believe if they had did what square did for ff15 instead of a couple of patches then ditched, well we never know will we.
Biggest prob Anthem will face is the vocal haters of everything EA an the clingers still hoping for a return to yester year an complete opposition to anything online, to those ppl i say hey the problems you
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jan 31, 2018 13:26:32 GMT
Far as i know squares engine was a total bitch, as far as it being ditched after ff15 an them just going with the unreal engine for future products, ff15 was released an imo again it wasnt that bad a game, i actually really enjoyed it an then with constant free updates an the dlc it, again imo, is prob one of the better FF games. Shit happens it that simple, im sure the devs an even the publishers wish it never but thats life, square coulda done a EA after release an tidied up with some patches then stopped all support but they never, they stuck with it supported it with constant patches, free updates an dlc for a full year after release then decided to support it again announcing another year of free updates an dlc, gotta respect them for that tbh. Suppose end of day it all about what your willing to put up with etc etc an for me, regardless what critics/youtubers an comment sections have to say on the subject, i have yet to play a bad BioWare game, every single one could be improved, some are better than others an every single one has something i dislike but none are by far a bad game experience, mediocre prob worst thing i could say an thats leveled at ME:A where i believe if they had did what square did for ff15 instead of a couple of patches then ditched, well we never know will we. Biggest prob Anthem will face is the vocal haters of everything EA an the clingers still hoping for a return to yester year an complete opposition to anything online, to those ppl i say hey the problems you This post is good in content, but holy shitballs the grammar is beyond the pale! I agree with you. Shaking my head, but I agree.
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Post by simit on Jan 31, 2018 14:13:52 GMT
Joys of console typing, do apologize
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TEH EVUL CREEP
1008
0
Sept 27, 2021 23:28:25 GMT
3,757
BamBam the Destroyer
I hunt, therefore I am
2,774
August 2016
jockcranley
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by BamBam the Destroyer on Feb 1, 2018 3:36:21 GMT
new IP + new engine = lots of time
7 years is fine.
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inherit
9661
0
Dec 13, 2018 21:03:43 GMT
60
vhiran
37
December 2017
vhiran
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Post by vhiran on Feb 1, 2018 4:08:15 GMT
7 years is fine. lol at least it isn't a decade like FFXV
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