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Post by lennybusker on Mar 30, 2019 6:24:22 GMT
One thing I'm grateful for in Anthem is the case study in people being unable to admit that they were wrong and others were right. Of course there are isolated exceptions but by and large people are sticking to their guns which is hilarious to watch. That's because all of you keep feeding off of the controversy. It's all the gaming community seems to thrive on anymore. Finding an enemy to hate on and cannibalizing your own to fuel that desire. It's...tiring honestly. How do you define "thrive"? Has the gaming community not thrived on excellent games being released lately? RE2 remake, Sekiro, The Division 2, Apex Legends, and others? The narrative even in "negative" enclaves like the general gaming subs on reddit is that 2019 has been amazing. And any controversy over Anthem has nothing to do with people being negative, it's how it's failed and keeps failing even its loyal fans. Go look at the first page of the subreddit, all of those threads with complaints and criticism aren't by people like me who think it's a pile of dogshit not worth 2 seconds of time, it's by people who actually like the game. But still, even after the multiple subreddit mutinies, even after i.imgur.com/Nb55u7E.pngand even after i.imgur.com/GhxVk5l.pngsome of the Bioware loyalists are unable to admit that those of us who warned that the game was being overhyped and Bioware might be making fundamental mistakes in game design and execution were right.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 30, 2019 11:15:30 GMT
That's because all of you keep feeding off of the controversy. It's all the gaming community seems to thrive on anymore. Finding an enemy to hate on and cannibalizing your own to fuel that desire. It's...tiring honestly. False. We find it incredible and distressing that the world has sunk to this new low. It is like Padme Amidala going to Palpatine's coronation, on a Groundhog Day loop. I am decidedly not cannibalizing my own. I wouldn't eat any of you. Also, I am not a "gamer". That is a lame ass label like any other. I do not care about this "group", I care about playing a good game that is so much fun I want to come here and talk about it, and have passionate arguments with "my own", people that like the same game as me and have a different interpretation of X bit of lore, or Y bit of strategy. I didn't look for anyone to hate, but they present themselves consistently for hating. Instead they get a range of "meh" to incredulity. I don't choose to not hate an idiot after reading his/her idiotic post, I do what comes naturally and call out the idiot for being an idiot. That was a really sad story, just not a true one. It sure does sound like gaming journalism though. So your naturally an unpleasant person that way? Thats even worse...
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N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 30, 2019 11:26:42 GMT
That's because all of you keep feeding off of the controversy. It's all the gaming community seems to thrive on anymore. Finding an enemy to hate on and cannibalizing your own to fuel that desire. It's...tiring honestly. How do you define "thrive"? Has the gaming community not thrived on excellent games being released lately? RE2 remake, Sekiro, The Division 2, Apex Legends, and others? The narrative even in "negative" enclaves like the general gaming subs on reddit is that 2019 has been amazing. And any controversy over Anthem has nothing to do with people being negative, it's how it's failed and keeps failing even its loyal fans. Go look at the first page of the subreddit, all of those threads with complaints and criticism aren't by people like me who think it's a pile of dogshit not worth 2 seconds of time, it's by people who actually like the game. But still, even after the multiple subreddit mutinies, even after i.imgur.com/Nb55u7E.pngand even after i.imgur.com/GhxVk5l.pngsome of the Bioware loyalists are unable to admit that those of us who warned that the game was being overhyped and Bioware might be making fundamental mistakes in game design and execution were right. Controversy feeds everything in this hobby now a days. Even if a good game came along it wouldnt stop folks praising it to high hevans or find an excuse to shit on something they don't like. I'm not sure why you care, exactly about the reddit of a game yoy don't give a damn about. If it's just for that feeling of shadenfreude don't you think thats a bit ridiculous? Anthem is frankly insignificant in this conversation. It's a cycle that effects every aspect of the hobby. Folks will find a way to feed thier rages, almost every game begats a controversy, major or minor, good reasons or poor. And people decide to pick sides from that because of their own subjective opinions. It's predictable and inevitable, and what's worse seems to be the only satisfaction folks get from games now a days, they have to be right to justify everything they say. Even though it does not matter if you are right. Honestly it feels like the immediacy of social media is a culprit in this. Twenty odd years ago these "controversies" were rare. The only one I can remember was people losing their minds over a cell shaded zelda game and the failure that was daikatana. Now, every other week it's something. It's kind of sad to see the hobby degenerate like that.
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Post by river82 on Mar 30, 2019 11:39:48 GMT
Honestly it feels like the immediacy of social media is a culprit in this. Twenty odd years ago these "controversies" were rare. The only one I can remember was people losing their minds over a cell shaded zelda game and the failure that was daikatana. Now, every other week it's something. It's kind of sad to see the hobby degenerate like that. Also twenty years ago a minority of people played video games and was still something to be ashamed of. These days surveys suggest anywhere up to 70% of people play video games (if you include mobile in that category). And once you hit 70% you're pretty much including everybody or every sort of person in that demographic now. And as outrage seems to be so much a part of our culture these days, and as our hobby now includes virtually everyone, it's fairly logical that gaming will be affected by the same sorts of problems that face our culture as a whole. So I wonder whether it's really the "gamers" that are the problem or whether it's the "normies" that flooded in about a decade ago. Just my 2c.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Teaching Mode Activated
3,186
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 30, 2019 11:44:14 GMT
Honestly it feels like the immediacy of social media is a culprit in this. Twenty odd years ago these "controversies" were rare. The only one I can remember was people losing their minds over a cell shaded zelda game and the failure that was daikatana. Now, every other week it's something. It's kind of sad to see the hobby degenerate like that. Also twenty years ago a minority of people played video games and was still something to be ashamed of. These days surveys suggest anywhere up to 70% of people play video games (if you include mobile in that category). And once you hit 70% you're pretty much including everybody or every sort of person in that demographic now. And as outrage seems to be so much a part of our culture these days, and as our hobby now includes virtually everyone, it's fairly logical that gaming will be affected by the same sorts of problems that face our culture as a whole. So I wonder whether it's really the "gamers" that are the problem or whether it's the "normies" that flooded in about a decade ago. Just my 2c. I'd suspect the gamers if we have to use that. I know a lot of hardcore players who bemoan the "normies" in the hobby. They lost their sense of identity anf counterculture as gaming became normalized.
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Post by river82 on Mar 30, 2019 11:56:02 GMT
Also twenty years ago a minority of people played video games and was still something to be ashamed of. These days surveys suggest anywhere up to 70% of people play video games (if you include mobile in that category). And once you hit 70% you're pretty much including everybody or every sort of person in that demographic now. And as outrage seems to be so much a part of our culture these days, and as our hobby now includes virtually everyone, it's fairly logical that gaming will be affected by the same sorts of problems that face our culture as a whole. So I wonder whether it's really the "gamers" that are the problem or whether it's the "normies" that flooded in about a decade ago. Just my 2c. I'd suspect the gamers if we have to use that. I know a lot of hardcore players who bemoan the "normies" in the hobby. They lost their sense of identity anf counterculture as gaming became normalized. Pffft, hardcore gamers can always regain their hipster sense of identity by following indies and smirking condescendingly at those just chasing graphics, all while putting back together their deconstructed latte (yes, it's sadly a thing - www.businessinsider.com.au/people-are-going-nuts-over-this-melbourne-cafes-deconstructed-latte-2016-6 )
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Post by Sartoz on Mar 30, 2019 12:31:34 GMT
Snip Now, every other week it's something. It's kind of sad to see the hobby degenerate like that.
This argument assumes that the games remain a constant in terms of quality and therefore the negative criticisms are unwarranted.
Somehow, I may be wrong here but somehow, if a happy-go-lucky person that always sees the bright side of things buys a brand new car that turns out to be a lemon, somehow and I've known to be wrong, somehow, I sincerely doubt that person remains the epitome of bliss.
Certain expectations are inherent when we buy a product. What does the warranty say? something about the product's merchantability. It's either there or the vendor must include a disclaimer in writing and conspicuous. I've seen neither with Anthem. Can anyone verify?
Renting a lemon vs buying one is quite different. I'm sure everyone agrees with this. Thus, the reaction to playing buggy Anthem with Premium Access has less weight than the person who bought the game at 60+ dollars. Put another way, a person in love will totally ignore their lover's Cyrano de Bergerac nose but other's reactions are legit.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 30, 2019 12:40:18 GMT
Snip Now, every other week it's something. It's kind of sad to see the hobby degenerate like that.
This argument assumes that the games remain a constant in terms of quality and therefore the negative criticisms are unwarranted.
Somehow, I may be wrong here but somehow, if a happy-go-lucky person that always sees the bright side of things buys a brand new car that turns out to be a lemon, somehow and I've known to be wrong, somehow, I sincerely doubt that person remains the epitome of bliss.
Certain expectations are inherent when we buy a product. What does the warranty say? something about the product's merchantability. It's either there or the vendor must include a disclaimer in writing and conspicuous. I've seen neither with Anthem. Can anyone verify?
Renting a lemon vs buying one is quite different. I'm sure everyone agrees with this. Thus, the reaction to playing buggy Anthem with Premium Access has less weight than the person who bought the game at 60+ dollars. Put another way, a person in love will totally ignore their lover's Cyrano de Bergerac nose.
Actually thats not the argument at all. I am saying quality of the product is insignificant because people actively look to "pick a side" on purpose because it's what they get out of things. It goes beyond just gaming too. it's like those idiots who railed against the marvel or DC movies or folks complaining about Justin beiber. It's almost textbook neocon theory of creating an "other" to channel your superiority over, when the reality is moreso people have no idea what they talk about. Nuance is dead, and in the words of Henry Drummond from inherit the wind "but fanaticism and ignorance is forever busy, and needs feeding." I never thought I'd say this, but I kind of agree with the lamentations by the likes of Ben Croshaw on this one in his hunt down the freeman episode. What happened to us all?
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Post by slimgrin727 on Mar 30, 2019 13:09:50 GMT
The Bioware is dead mantra came after they were acquired by EA, and obviously didn't manifest itself back then as every game was solid all the way up to DA2. But DA2 had pretty good writing, it was just a rushed project in other ways. The real drop off in writing quality came with ME3 - mainly the ending, and more recently with Andromeda. To me Andromeda shows a sharp drop in narrative quality. From what I've played of Anthem, the writing is even worse and now gameplay structure has suffered as well. As a concept it's not nearly as fleshed out as past titles and the leaked SP premise shows how lacking it is. So if we compare Anthem to the likes of ME1 or DA:O, I can't see anyone objectively saying they're even close. Whether it's EA or just Bioware themselves, they clearly are not the company they used to be. I just hope the next DA can get them on track again.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 30, 2019 14:21:57 GMT
slimgrin727I have no expectations from DA4. Inquisition failed to make me care about anything going on in THEDAS and continuing with Solas' storyline will only drive me further away. I felt so downgraded and limited with DA2, completely underwhelmed by Inquisition and I can't bring myself to care for Bioware's next 5-6/10 title in a setting I don't think I can enjoy anymore. On the other hand, my expectations for it are so low that it can only go up from here, right? Right?
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Post by Space Cowboy on Mar 30, 2019 14:27:32 GMT
This argument assumes that the games remain a constant in terms of quality and therefore the negative criticisms are unwarranted.
Somehow, I may be wrong here but somehow, if a happy-go-lucky person that always sees the bright side of things buys a brand new car that turns out to be a lemon, somehow and I've known to be wrong, somehow, I sincerely doubt that person remains the epitome of bliss.
Certain expectations are inherent when we buy a product. What does the warranty say? something about the product's merchantability. It's either there or the vendor must include a disclaimer in writing and conspicuous. I've seen neither with Anthem. Can anyone verify?
Renting a lemon vs buying one is quite different. I'm sure everyone agrees with this. Thus, the reaction to playing buggy Anthem with Premium Access has less weight than the person who bought the game at 60+ dollars. Put another way, a person in love will totally ignore their lover's Cyrano de Bergerac nose.
Actually thats not the argument at all. I am saying quality of the product is insignificant because people actively look to "pick a side" on purpose because it's what they get out of things. It goes beyond just gaming too. it's like those idiots who railed against the marvel or DC movies or folks complaining about Justin beiber. It's almost textbook neocon theory of creating an "other" to channel your superiority over, when the reality is moreso people have no idea what they talk about. Nuance is dead, and in the words of Henry Drummond from inherit the wind "but fanaticism and ignorance is forever busy, and needs feeding." I never thought I'd say this, but I kind of agree with the lamentations by the likes of Ben Croshaw on this one in his hunt down the freeman episode. What happened to us all? People who complain about that sort of thing often fail to recognize the same behaviour in their own 'side'. or choose to ignore it, or make excuses as to why they are not hypocrites, that it's ok when they do it..
I agree that it isn't a good idea to bring politics into this discussion.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Mar 30, 2019 14:37:51 GMT
Now you're getting personal. I did report you for putting politics into this thread; that's your own rose tint pal so keep that shit outta here.
As for the rest, lol tropes and narrative devices and psychology - I am not a character in a book, but if you want to caricaturize me as some phony with a chip on his shoulder; go for it. This is an internet forum, and your opinion has zero value in my life.
Edit: to return back to the topic at hand; BioWare cannot undo the damage they have done to the brand with the successive releases of variable disappointment since DA2. None of their games since has pleased the entire forum, has divided it further, and in that time the people outside of the forum have been exposed to BioWare, and almost all of their exposure has been of a derp company making derp games with lots of promises and catchphrases unfulfilled.
The Dylan of games? If they meant off-tune with a weird voice, they nailed it.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Mar 30, 2019 14:41:19 GMT
The Bioware is dead mantra came after they were acquired by EA, and obviously didn't manifest itself back then as every game was solid all the way up to DA2. But DA2 had pretty good writing, it was just a rushed project in other ways. The real drop off in writing quality came with ME3 - mainly the ending, and more recently with Andromeda. To me Andromeda shows a sharp drop in narrative quality. From what I've played of Anthem, the writing is even worse and now gameplay structure has suffered as well. As a concept it's not nearly as fleshed out as past titles and the leaked SP premise shows how lacking it is. So if we compare Anthem to the likes of ME1 or DA:O, I can't see anyone objectively saying they're even close. Whether it's EA or just Bioware themselves, they clearly are not the company they used to be. I just hope the next DA can get them on track again. Not really. The tone and theme changed dramatically in Mass Effect 2 from the first game. I think they tried to go more 'mainstream' to attract more players. Switching from details first story telling to drama first, as an article I read put it.
DA2 was ok story wise though, I agree, just rushed. I suspect they also cut intended content, making the last chapter more railroaded than originally intended. The marketing was cringy though Awesome button! Laidlaw said they were trying to attract COD numbers, I remember. Didn't quite work out unfortunately. DAI was even marketed to COD players via youtube content providers, even though I doubt your average COD fan would touch an RPG with a ten foot pole.
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N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 30, 2019 14:43:17 GMT
Now you're getting personal. I did report you for putting politics into this thread; that's your own rose tint pal so keep that shit outta here. As for the rest, lol tropes and narrative devices and psychology - I am not a character in a book, but if you want to caricaturize me as some phony with a chip on his shoulder; go for it. This is an internet forum, and your opinion has zero value in my life. I don't have to characterize considering your actions and open confessions speak for itselfm. you have crafted a self caricature on display. I would hope I would be wrong and people are more complex, but sadly it seems to be reflective of the truth more than anything else considering the circumstances.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 30, 2019 14:57:10 GMT
I am saying quality of the product is insignificant And I'm saying you're wrong. Quality of product is the first and foremost important thing in a product. I don't care about Justin Bieber, he can go do his own thing, just like Activision can sell all the CoDs they can. I'm asking why is Bioware's quality getting consistently worse and people reply with "it's fine for me, what don't you like about it"? And even if I do, they'll write it off as trolling. So what's the point of arguing? Well, I can direct you to the point of not arguing instead; it's a 59% average PC review score for Anthem on Metacritic. Sonic and the Dark Brotherhood at least scored a 74.
So you can make a choice. You can keep saying this is fine and maybe the next game can be a 40% average review score. Or you can push back and say "this is not acceptable" or even "you can do better", much more encouraging.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Mar 30, 2019 14:57:26 GMT
The Bioware is dead mantra came after they were acquired by EA, and obviously didn't manifest itself back then as every game was solid all the way up to DA2. But DA2 had pretty good writing, it was just a rushed project in other ways. The real drop off in writing quality came with ME3 - mainly the ending, and more recently with Andromeda. To me Andromeda shows a sharp drop in narrative quality. From what I've played of Anthem, the writing is even worse and now gameplay structure has suffered as well. As a concept it's not nearly as fleshed out as past titles and the leaked SP premise shows how lacking it is. So if we compare Anthem to the likes of ME1 or DA:O, I can't see anyone objectively saying they're even close. Whether it's EA or just Bioware themselves, they clearly are not the company they used to be. I just hope the next DA can get them on track again. Not really. The tone and theme changed dramatically in Mass Effect 2 from the first game. I think they tried to go more 'mainstream' to attract more players. Switching from details first story telling to drama first, as an article I read put it.
I'm strictly talking quality and probably didn't make that clear in my post. While ME2 was a departure and was infamous for streamlining, it still reviewed and sold exceptionally well.
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N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 30, 2019 15:10:27 GMT
I am saying quality of the product is insignificant And I'm saying you're wrong. Quality of product is the first and foremost important thing in a product. I don't care about Justin Bieber, he can go do his own thing, just like Activision can sell all the CoDs they can. I'm asking why is Bioware's quality getting consistently worse and people reply with "it's fine for me, what don't you like about it"? And even if I do, they'll write it off as trolling. So what's the point of arguing? Well, I can direct you to the point of not arguing instead; it's a 59% average PC review score for Anthem on Metacritic. Sonic and the Dark Brotherhood at least scored a 74.
So you can make a choice. You can keep saying this is fine and maybe the next game can be a 40% average review score. Or you can push back and say "this is not acceptable" or even "you can do better", much more encouraging.
Opinion of quality is insignificant to subjectivity of taste. The problem i have is when folks take that subjectivity and transform it to fact, and then try to prostelyze the general public into agreeing. The subject in question can be anything though, not just a bioware game. What you said above is just subjective and also frankly fair criticism. But that's not what I'm against. I'm against the folks who demean or purposely distort to fit their view.which everyone is guilty of.
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Post by Kenny Bania on Mar 30, 2019 15:12:31 GMT
Why keep reading & posting in a "scepticism" thread when the concept of someone being sceptical about something you love gets you so butthurt?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 30, 2019 15:16:50 GMT
And I'm saying you're wrong. Quality of product is the first and foremost important thing in a product. I don't care about Justin Bieber, he can go do his own thing, just like Activision can sell all the CoDs they can. I'm asking why is Bioware's quality getting consistently worse and people reply with "it's fine for me, what don't you like about it"? And even if I do, they'll write it off as trolling. So what's the point of arguing? Well, I can direct you to the point of not arguing instead; it's a 59% average PC review score for Anthem on Metacritic. Sonic and the Dark Brotherhood at least scored a 74.
So you can make a choice. You can keep saying this is fine and maybe the next game can be a 40% average review score. Or you can push back and say "this is not acceptable" or even "you can do better", much more encouraging.
Opinion of quality is insignificant to subjectivity of taste. The problem i have is when folks take that subjectivity and transform it to fact, and then try to prostelyze the general public into agreeing. The subject in question can be anything though, not just a bioware game. What you said above is just subjective and also frankly fair criticism. But that's not what I'm against. I'm against the folks who demean or purposely distort to fit their view.which everyone is guilty of. I disagree again. Subjective taste is insignificant compared to Objective Quality. Subjective taste is a crutch to excuse poor quality. And I feel you. Do you know what my favourite TV show out there is right now? DC's Legends of Tomorrow. It is utter garbage and I love it. In fact, I love it just because of how garbage it is. It's Citadel DLC's level of cheese, that got cranked up to eleven and from there to twenty two. Don't watch legends of tomorrow.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 30, 2019 15:34:23 GMT
Opinion of quality is insignificant to subjectivity of taste. The problem i have is when folks take that subjectivity and transform it to fact, and then try to prostelyze the general public into agreeing. The subject in question can be anything though, not just a bioware game. What you said above is just subjective and also frankly fair criticism. But that's not what I'm against. I'm against the folks who demean or purposely distort to fit their view.which everyone is guilty of. I disagree again. Subjective taste is insignificant compared to Objective Quality. Subjective taste is a crutch to excuse poor quality. And I feel you. Do you know what my favourite TV show out there is right now? DC's Legends of Tomorrow. It is utter garbage and I love it. In fact, I love it just because of how garbage it is. It's Citadel DLC's level of cheese, that got cranked up to eleven and from there to twenty two. Don't watch legends of tomorrow. I don't watch TV anymore so I think I will be ok. But I can say this does depend on whether or not you believe objective quality exists in forms of pop culture and media. Objectively, for example, one of the best selling franchises of all time is Call of Duty, it routinely gets good scores, has millions of people playing them at a time, and is responsible for making FPS multiplayer more mainstream along with Halo. Is it objectively a good game by that metric? We can weigh merits to that but the only aspects that we can say are wholly objective; it runs, it got good scores from critics, its played a lot and so on, but that doesn't match the arguments by folks who are sick of the franchise for whatever subjective reason they think of. It's the same game every year, the story is terrible, its a cash grab by Activision, it stifles creativity; all again valid criticisms as much as is the popularity of what is effectively a "blue collar" game. We can say the same about any form of pop culture. Is legends of tomorrow really that bad? I know friends of mine who watch it religiously along with Flash and Supergirl because they find the narrative to be intriguing and the characters endearing. Are they really objectively bad in that way when they are well produced, possibly well acted and have a following that enjoys them? Objectivity is sort of a myth when it comes to subjective tastes in media I would argue. Objectivity only really comes into play in things like Moral Realism and discussing the ethics of one's life via philosophical discussion or scientific pursuits. When it comes to media the doors are wide open for arbitrary interpretation versus calculating logic, and with that, the abuse by others to prey upon folks as having the "objective truth" on their side.
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Post by aglomeracja on Mar 30, 2019 15:41:07 GMT
This argument assumes that the games remain a constant in terms of quality and therefore the negative criticisms are unwarranted.
Somehow, I may be wrong here but somehow, if a happy-go-lucky person that always sees the bright side of things buys a brand new car that turns out to be a lemon, somehow and I've known to be wrong, somehow, I sincerely doubt that person remains the epitome of bliss.
Certain expectations are inherent when we buy a product. What does the warranty say? something about the product's merchantability. It's either there or the vendor must include a disclaimer in writing and conspicuous. I've seen neither with Anthem. Can anyone verify?
Renting a lemon vs buying one is quite different. I'm sure everyone agrees with this. Thus, the reaction to playing buggy Anthem with Premium Access has less weight than the person who bought the game at 60+ dollars. Put another way, a person in love will totally ignore their lover's Cyrano de Bergerac nose.
Actually thats not the argument at all. I am saying quality of the product is insignificant because people actively look to "pick a side" on purpose because it's what they get out of things.It goes beyond just gaming too. it's like those idiots who railed against the marvel or DC movies or folks complaining about Justin beiber. It's almost textbook neocon theory of creating an "other" to channel your superiority over, when the reality is moreso people have no idea what they talk about. Nuance is dead, and in the words of Henry Drummond from inherit the wind "but fanaticism and ignorance is forever busy, and needs feeding." I never thought I'd say this, but I kind of agree with the lamentations by the likes of Ben Croshaw on this one in his hunt down the freeman episode. What happened to us all? Yeah, some people do that and that has been the case since I remember. The main difference about gaming today and gaming 20 years ago is that now it's driven by multi-billion dollar companies which are solely focused on searching for new ways to milk gamers out of their money and 20 years ago it was driven by small studios filled with passionate people trying to make a good game.
No one is rooting for EA, Activision, Ubisoft etc. and no one is forgiving them their mistakes, because they aren't underdogs you can cheer for and their business practices are increasingly repulsive.
People are rooting for small/indie studios, because they are the opposite.
Quality is still significant. If the product is really good and customers are treated fairly, then the amount of people defending the product is higher and the opposite is true for critics of said product.
Why the hell would anyone search for nuance in case of Justin Biebers phenomenon is beyond me though...
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 30, 2019 15:59:27 GMT
I started removing posts that were just bickering, but I could probably have removed several pages. So calm it right down in here, please. Direct your skepticism to the game, not each other, thanks.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
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PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 30, 2019 16:10:33 GMT
Actually thats not the argument at all. I am saying quality of the product is insignificant because people actively look to "pick a side" on purpose because it's what they get out of things.It goes beyond just gaming too. it's like those idiots who railed against the marvel or DC movies or folks complaining about Justin beiber. It's almost textbook neocon theory of creating an "other" to channel your superiority over, when the reality is moreso people have no idea what they talk about. Nuance is dead, and in the words of Henry Drummond from inherit the wind "but fanaticism and ignorance is forever busy, and needs feeding." I never thought I'd say this, but I kind of agree with the lamentations by the likes of Ben Croshaw on this one in his hunt down the freeman episode. What happened to us all? Yeah, some people do that and that has been the case since I remember. The main difference about gaming today and gaming 20 years ago is that now it's driven by multi-billion dollar companies which are solely focused on searching for new ways to milk gamers out of their money and 20 years ago it was driven by small studios filled with passionate people trying to make a good game.
No one is rooting for EA, Activision, Ubisoft etc. and no one is forgiving them their mistakes, because they aren't underdogs you can cheer for and their business practices are increasingly repulsive.
People are rooting for small/indie studios, because they are the opposite.
Quality is still significant. If the product is really good and customers are treated fairly, then the amount of people defending the product is higher and the opposite is true for critics of said product.
Why the hell would anyone search for nuance in case of Justin Biebers phenomenon is beyond me though... I teach for a living, I look for nuance in everything . In all seriousness, why is it that people also reject the small/indie studios because of the games they choose to make? For every game that breaks through like Braid, we have others who are reviled liked Gone Home? Isn't part of that debate the subjectivity of quality which cannot be officially defined? Small and indie games are great but that entire ecosystem suffers from problems that affect their side of the industry. A "good" product is hard to really gague when ten or so products look just like it along a digital store. And worse, a good product is not always "good" in the eyes of critics or the general public. You rightly point out people will defend them, but that defense means nothing if we follow their products as just an objective quality of its systems as others have argued as well. It also doesn't matter much due to subjective opinion. Ultimately its the self that can make those judgements, which is kind of a theme I am trying to argue here. It shouldn't really matter what others think about the product, from a gameplay standpoint, an intellectual one, a design one, and so on. Having something to say about that product is completely valid in all of those categories, but again, it is taken way too far in the grand scheme of it all. Those defenders or detractors become "the other" and must be wrong or blasphemous because of the "truth" you know, of the "hobby" you defend. Also, let's not look at the past so fondly. 20 years ago those corporations were still around. Profit and consumerism in a large scale industry has always been the impetus for what games get developed. Hell, Nintendo practically had a vice grip on the industry for a decade simply by forcing quality control; and development teams were creating games based on tie-ins and with gimmicks since the 1980s for PC and Console. It's also fallacy to presume that those who work now at EA, Activision or so on do not have passion in making a good game. And yet the most ironic thing is these companies are giving their customers what they want, treating them as fairly as possible too regardless of what folks actually say. Why is the service model popular ultimately? Sure it generates money for the publishers, but clearly there is also demand and one of the failings of consumerism is that we tend to buy trivial things because it feeds that demand. What determines it to be better or worse quality than a linear game or an open world one, an RPG or a FPS? Or hybrid-style games like most of BioWare's catalogue. Maybe I am just looking for something that's not there ultimately...
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 30, 2019 16:10:39 GMT
I disagree again. Subjective taste is insignificant compared to Objective Quality. Subjective taste is a crutch to excuse poor quality. And I feel you. Do you know what my favourite TV show out there is right now? DC's Legends of Tomorrow. It is utter garbage and I love it. In fact, I love it just because of how garbage it is. It's Citadel DLC's level of cheese, that got cranked up to eleven and from there to twenty two. Don't watch legends of tomorrow. I don't watch TV anymore so I think I will be ok. But I can say this does depend on whether or not you believe objective quality exists in forms of pop culture and media. Objectively, for example, one of the best selling franchises of all time is Call of Duty, it routinely gets good scores, has millions of people playing them at a time, and is responsible for making FPS multiplayer more mainstream along with Halo. Is it objectively a good game by that metric? We can weigh merits to that but the only aspects that we can say are wholly objective; it runs, it got good scores from critics, its played a lot and so on, but that doesn't match the arguments by folks who are sick of the franchise for whatever subjective reason they think of. It's the same game every year, the story is terrible, its a cash grab by Activision, it stifles creativity; all again valid criticisms as much as is the popularity of what is effectively a "blue collar" game. We can say the same about any form of pop culture. Is legends of tomorrow really that bad? I know friends of mine who watch it religiously along with Flash and Supergirl because they find the narrative to be intriguing and the characters endearing. Are they really objectively bad in that way when they are well produced, possibly well acted and have a following that enjoys them? Objectivity is sort of a myth when it comes to subjective tastes in media I would argue. Objectivity only really comes into play in things like Moral Realism and discussing the ethics of one's life via philosophical discussion or scientific pursuits. When it comes to media the doors are wide open for arbitrary interpretation versus calculating logic, and with that, the abuse by others to prey upon folks as having the "objective truth" on their side. That would be true, if you took yourself to be the norm and everyone else the outlier. Take the MCU for example. Great actors, great directors, fantastic action flicks, high quality cinematography, incredible production values. I've seen films by Kim Ki Duk and Wong Kar Wai that put the MCU to shame ... in certain aspects. Are the movies necessarily better? No. It's a trade off, because there is no perfect film, but through innovation and creative vision, a smaller production can become a great film. Just as well, a huge production can become Suicide Squad. There are things that work and things that don't work. Critics around the world sat down with Anthem in their hands and independently came to the conclusion that what Anthem did, it did not execute as well as it should have and it was an obvious step back from previous Bioware games, even Mass Effect: Andromeda, in this case.
Now, you're gonna ask me about CoD. I don't know enough about CoD, because I don't play CoD. But the CoD people play CoD and maybe Madden/FIFA? I guess there's a overlap in those types of games. I assume. But just because I don't like these types of games, doesn't make them bad games. On the other hand, are CoD reviews a self-fulfilling prophecy? As in "are the people reviewing them biased"? Also, we know for a fact that some review outlets do indeed give out favourable reviews to games in exchange for advertisements, review copies, party invitations etc. Can Activision be doing that for CoD for all reviewers, every year? Maybe. At the same time, though, if you are bringing reviewers into question, you are implying that there is malevolence towards Bioware from reviewers. Which may also be true, but how many of them can drip vitriol towards Bioware to rate Anthem a 59% average on PC? I mean, if you do harbour such hate towards Bioware, mr. reviewer, please, show me where Bioware touched you, I want to know.
And because you mentioned the DC vs MCU argument earlier on and I mentioned Suicide Squad in a negative light, I had fun with Suicide Squad regardless, but it wasn't a great movie, Wonder Woman was fantastic, Aquaman was some of the most fun I've had in a movie in a while, can't wait to see Shazam and Henry Cavill in Man of Steel was simply inspirational to me. Mother fucker saved my life, to be honest. So know, I have no gripes towards either cinematic universe. I enjoy what I like, I can understand when something is bad, I do not let it bias my opinion and will concede to the faults of what I like regardless. However, if I see something is wrong, especially in something I like and want it to get better, you're goddamn right, I'm gonna bitch and moan and kick and scream about it. Especially if I can and have come up with a better way to do it.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Mar 30, 2019 16:11:21 GMT
I started removing posts that were just bickering, but I could probably have removed several pages. So calm it right down in here, please. Direct your skepticism to the game, not each other, thanks. Careful Sofa, you’ll be accused of censoring people. Why even make this post?
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