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Post by Iakus on Feb 6, 2018 17:48:54 GMT
So seeing absolutely nothing RPG in Anthem, but just another looter-shooter in the future is a "spurious reason"? Sorry, Bioware has burned me too many times in the past for the benefit of the doubt to apply any more What do you mean by, “the benefit of the doubt”? Really, I don’t get it. I keep seeing people say this as if waiting to pass judgement until we know anything were a favor to be graced upon a developer you like rather than a default rational behavior. Because when you have limited dollars to spend on games, you tend to gravitate towards what you think is good. And what I saw in the Anthem announcement didn't look like anything I'd be interested in. Like at all. And shouldn't an announcement be something to get people EXCITED? Why should I be excited over yet another TPS in an already glutted market?
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 6, 2018 17:55:44 GMT
I keep seeing people say this as if waiting to pass judgement until we know anything were a favor to be graced upon a developer you like rather than a default rational behavior. But we do know about the game. People are passing judgment on those things we know. Not giving the game "the benefit of the doubt" in this case is the acknowledgment that what has been shown is unappealing, and what can be extrapolated based solely on those elements is, similarly, disheartening. Nothing has been shown that would indicate otherwise. Giving the benefit of the doubt means assuming that things which they have made no reference to are going to be a part of the game. It's not, admittedly, very rational to assume things based on only small amounts of evidence, but it's even less rational to make assumptions based on none at all, isn't it? My response would be to point out that Bioware has outright said that “traditional Bioware story-telling” would be in the game. That’s some evidence. It isn’t enough for anyone to decide the game will be great, but it’s enough that I want to wait and see what form that storytelling will take.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Feb 6, 2018 18:03:05 GMT
Exactly, I don't understand people... Only "DLC" I ever bought was the expansions for Oblivion, which were full of content, not a 2-hour mission I love Mass Effect Trilogy a thousand times more than any Elder Scrolls (even Morrowind), but I'd never buy their DLCs Oh don't mistake me, I will happily buy DLC if I think I'll enjoy what it offers. I'm merely remarking on how the discourse around DLC has changed so dramatically. Not so long ago, the dominant narrative was that if a game had DLC, the devs should be skewered for making you pay extra in order to get 'the full game'. By that logic, the fact that there is not and will not be any DLC for ME:A means consumers got the 'full game' at launch, and therefore ought to be happy, yes? Now, DLC is referred to as 'further support', and is expected or even demanded. A practice that was previously largely viewed as being 'anti-consumer' is now apparently pro-consumer, and that's just fascinating to me. I have to wonder how and when this cultural shift took place. I'm not invested in this conversation one way or the other, but there is a caveat that is missing from your point - The 'dominant narrative,' so to speak, regarding DLC was that there was content within the game disc already in-place (think the 'From Ashes' DLC for ME3.) The issue then was that this 'day one DLC' was already on the game, but was being withheld for more money. Now, while I don't totally believe that the material was ready and purposely omitted for the sake of making more money, I do think that it was a poor decision to make this available from the get-go and charge players to access this DLC, on top of the full price for the game, especially since much/most of the content was already on the disc. Think of a scenario of buying a house - say, you buy a house (i.e., the Vanilla game) and it's all well and good. Some people are fine with it as it is, some people want to expand it or build a new patio or deck (the DLC, if you will.) The problem with the ME3 version of this in particular was that you were essentially buying a house with a locked door and room inside of it that wasn't considered legally 'yours' until you paid an additional fee/charge for the key, say a closet or cupboard or whatever. I imagine as a new homeowner, you'd feel pretty stiffed at that notion. While not quite the same in effect here, it is similar in spirit - this was the problem with DLC for ME3 in the beginning, as many saw it. Your point belies this distinction, I feel. IMO, DLC works best when it is a genuine add-on to an already complete game, adding more story or content that expands on the experience - it should never have to 'complete' the original experience - and if it has to be done, it should not be something players should have to be charged for.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Feb 6, 2018 18:09:19 GMT
My expectations for BW have been pretty low for years, though more because I just don't think their products are that good anymore - really, once you learn their formula, you start realizing that you're playing the same game. It gets pretty stale, eventually.
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Post by goishen on Feb 6, 2018 18:39:51 GMT
Not supporting Mass Effect Andromeda further with extra content was pretty much the death of Bioware to me. Funny how in just a few years we've come from bitching about DLC to bitching about a lack of DLC. I think that millennials are just confused about what they want from a gaming company, and the gaming companies are confused about their product and it's life cycle and the further and further you get from launch, the more vocal the minority will be. And before any of you start, Andromeda was trash, that's why I was so vocal about it from the very start.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 6, 2018 20:01:17 GMT
So seeing absolutely nothing RPG in Anthem, but just another looter-shooter in the future is a "spurious reason"? Sorry, Bioware has burned me too many times in the past for the benefit of the doubt to apply any more What do you mean by, “the benefit of the doubt”? Really, I don’t get it. I keep seeing people say this as if waiting to pass judgement until we know anything were a favor to be graced upon a developer you like rather than a default rational behavior. Well, that's the problem right there. Raging over disappointments and betrayal isn't really rational. What I find a bit difficult is sifting the unfulfilled expectations, for which BW can't be held accountable, from the actual betrayals that they can be. I don't think it's all one way or the other, it's probably a mix. That's not to say that having some skepticism over BW's promises about "traditional Bioware story-telling" isn't valid, or at least, understandable. On the other hand, automatically assuming everything BW says is a lie is pretty pointless.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 6, 2018 20:39:24 GMT
But we do know about the game. People are passing judgment on those things we know. Not giving the game "the benefit of the doubt" in this case is the acknowledgment that what has been shown is unappealing, and what can be extrapolated based solely on those elements is, similarly, disheartening. Nothing has been shown that would indicate otherwise. Giving the benefit of the doubt means assuming that things which they have made no reference to are going to be a part of the game. It's not, admittedly, very rational to assume things based on only small amounts of evidence, but it's even less rational to make assumptions based on none at all, isn't it? My response would be to point out that Bioware has outright said that “traditional Bioware story-telling” would be in the game. That’s some evidence. It isn’t enough for anyone to decide the game will be great, but it’s enough that I want to wait and see what form that storytelling will take. What little we've seen points to a MP-focused game where NPCs happen to talk to us. We had more banter between the players than anything else.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 6, 2018 20:44:53 GMT
My response would be to point out that Bioware has outright said that “traditional Bioware story-telling” would be in the game. That’s some evidence. It isn’t enough for anyone to decide the game will be great, but it’s enough that I want to wait and see what form that storytelling will take. What little we've seen points to a MP-focused game where NPCs happen to talk to us. We had more banter between the players than anything else. That would mean something if we had more than a single very short demo. Yes, what we’ve seen was MP, but we haven’t seen very much. Certainly not enough to just assume the devs are lying. I want to know more.
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Post by SofaJockey on Feb 6, 2018 20:52:21 GMT
What little we've seen points to a MP-focused game where NPCs happen to talk to us. Mass Effect 3's multiplayer was a beacon of awesomeness. If some of that crosses over to Anthem, many will be very happy. If you don't like multiplayer, this may not suit you as much, depending on how much of a compromise 'solo play' is.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 6, 2018 21:19:19 GMT
What little we've seen points to a MP-focused game where NPCs happen to talk to us. We had more banter between the players than anything else. That would mean something if we had more than a single very short demo. Yes, what we’ve seen was MP, but we haven’t seen very much. Certainly not enough to just assume the devs are lying. I want to know more. <iframe width="34.180000000000064" height="6.1200000000000045" style="position: absolute; width: 34.18px; height: 6.12px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 0px; top: 0px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_73176672"></iframe> <iframe width="34.180000000000064" height="6.1200000000000045" style="position: absolute; width: 34.18px; height: 6.12px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1634px; top: -266px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_80497246"></iframe> <iframe width="34.180000000000064" height="6.1200000000000045" style="position: absolute; width: 34.18px; height: 6.12px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -17px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_77660723"></iframe> <iframe width="34.180000000000064" height="6.1200000000000045" style="position: absolute; width: 34.18px; height: 6.12px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1634px; top: -17px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_85606403"></iframe> Why would they lead their first look at their new IP with anything but its strongest feature?
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 6, 2018 21:28:55 GMT
That would mean something if we had more than a single very short demo. Yes, what we’ve seen was MP, but we haven’t seen very much. Certainly not enough to just assume the devs are lying. I want to know more. Why would they lead their first look at their new IP with anything but its strongest feature? Advertising isn’t about showing off the strongest feature, it’s about showing off a marketable feature. In this case, I think the demo was pointedly targeted at the Destiny/Division/Warframe audience, to show them that this is something they might like. Think about it, Bioware’s marketing has almost never been targeted at the RPG crowd. Every game’s marketing campaign that I can think of in the past ten+ years has spotlighted big action set pieces, not storytelling. Remember the “This is the new shit” DAO trailers?
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Post by Iakus on Feb 6, 2018 22:15:46 GMT
Why would they lead their first look at their new IP with anything but its strongest feature? Advertising isn’t about showing off the strongest feature, it’s about showing off a marketable feature. In this case, I think the demo was pointedly targeted at the Destiny/Division/Warframe audience, to show them that this is something they might like. Think about it, Bioware’s marketing has almost never been targeted at the RPG crowd. Every game’s marketing campaign that I can think of in the past ten+ years has spotlighted big action set pieces, not storytelling. Remember the “This is the new shit” DAO trailers? So if we can't trust what they show us in "marketing", and their recent history has been, let us charitably say "less than stellar"... explain to me where "benefit of the doubt" fits here again? Edit: Yo know what gets me excited about a game? It's when they say "Yeah this is an RPG in the spirit of *insert name of game I loved*" Particularly when they can point to a recent game and say "Yeah, we made that too" Like, i'm totally jazzed about Deadfire coming out in a couple of months because Pillars of Eternity was AWESOME, and Tyranny was pretty great too. I'm looking forward to Vampyr because they're promising choices and consequences and moral complexity, and can point to Life is Strange as a recent example of their work. Even though they are shaping up to be very different games. Where can I do that for Anthem? Why should I have any expectations at all? Why should I think I'm not gonna get zapped if I grab the cupcake again?
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 6, 2018 22:31:02 GMT
Advertising isn’t about showing off the strongest feature, it’s about showing off a marketable feature. In this case, I think the demo was pointedly targeted at the Destiny/Division/Warframe audience, to show them that this is something they might like. Think about it, Bioware’s marketing has almost never been targeted at the RPG crowd. Every game’s marketing campaign that I can think of in the past ten+ years has spotlighted big action set pieces, not storytelling. Remember the “This is the new shit” DAO trailers? So if we can't trust what they show us in "marketing", and their recent history has been, let us charitably say "less than stellar"... explain to me where "benefit of the doubt" fits here again? Edit: Yo know what gets me excited about a game? It's when they say "Yeah this is an RPG in the spirit of *insert name of game I loved*" Particularly when they can point to a recent game and say "Yeah, we made that too" Like, i'm totally jazzed about Deadfire coming out in a couple of months because Pillars of Eternity was AWESOME, and Tyranny was pretty great too. I'm looking forward to Vampyr because they're promising choices and consequences and moral complexity, and can point to Life is Strange as a recent example of their work. Even though they are shaping up to be very different games. Where can I do that for Anthem? Why should I have any expectations at all? Why should I think I'm not gonna get zapped if I grab the cupcake again? Don't have expectations, if anything that is a benefit for you because there is nothing to be hyped about. Its the approach I take with all games for I will keep an eye on games that might interest me, but I don't have expectations for until people start to play the full thing there is nothing to base expectations on since you see maybe fifteen minutes of the game that might take twenty or more hours to play. These videos cherry pick what they think the audience that is paying attention to the game is wanting to see and giving them what they specifically want. Just because you might want to see RPG elements, it doesn't mean the majority of players out there or the people that they want to be interested in the game want to see RPG elements.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 7, 2018 0:53:27 GMT
Advertising isn’t about showing off the strongest feature, it’s about showing off a marketable feature. In this case, I think the demo was pointedly targeted at the Destiny/Division/Warframe audience, to show them that this is something they might like. Think about it, Bioware’s marketing has almost never been targeted at the RPG crowd. Every game’s marketing campaign that I can think of in the past ten+ years has spotlighted big action set pieces, not storytelling. Remember the “This is the new shit” DAO trailers? So if we can't trust what they show us in "marketing", and their recent history has been, let us charitably say "less than stellar"... explain to me where "benefit of the doubt" fits here again? Edit: Yo know what gets me excited about a game? It's when they say "Yeah this is an RPG in the spirit of *insert name of game I loved*" Particularly when they can point to a recent game and say "Yeah, we made that too" Like, i'm totally jazzed about Deadfire coming out in a couple of months because Pillars of Eternity was AWESOME, and Tyranny was pretty great too. I'm looking forward to Vampyr because they're promising choices and consequences and moral complexity, and can point to Life is Strange as a recent example of their work. Even though they are shaping up to be very different games. Where can I do that for Anthem? Why should I have any expectations at all? Why should I think I'm not gonna get zapped if I grab the cupcake again? If you think I’m suggesting you get hyped for Anthem, I’m not. You shouldn’t have any expectations good or bad for a game we ultimately know so little about. I’m just saying we don’t really know to what extent the traditional Bioware storytelling elements (Choices and Characters) are being left by the wayside here if at all. I’m content to come to no conclusions until I see more. That’s not giving them the benefit of the doubt, that’s just collating data.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 7, 2018 1:04:42 GMT
I can’t be the only one who remembers this marketing gem:
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Post by Iakus on Feb 7, 2018 1:25:38 GMT
So if we can't trust what they show us in "marketing", and their recent history has been, let us charitably say "less than stellar"... explain to me where "benefit of the doubt" fits here again? Edit: Yo know what gets me excited about a game? It's when they say "Yeah this is an RPG in the spirit of *insert name of game I loved*" Particularly when they can point to a recent game and say "Yeah, we made that too" Like, i'm totally jazzed about Deadfire coming out in a couple of months because Pillars of Eternity was AWESOME, and Tyranny was pretty great too. I'm looking forward to Vampyr because they're promising choices and consequences and moral complexity, and can point to Life is Strange as a recent example of their work. Even though they are shaping up to be very different games. Where can I do that for Anthem? Why should I have any expectations at all? Why should I think I'm not gonna get zapped if I grab the cupcake again? If you think I’m suggesting you get hyped for Anthem, I’m not. You shouldn’t have any expectations good or bad for a game we ultimately know so little about. I’m just saying we don’t really know to what extent the traditional Bioware storytelling elements (Choices and Characters) are being left by the wayside here if at all. I’m content to come to no conclusions until I see more. That’s not giving them the benefit of the doubt, that’s just collating data. But given both the lack of information about Anthem, as well as Bioware's last few outings, especially that colossal "meh" that was MEA, and the dumpster fire that was ME3, what kind of expectations SHOULD we have?
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 7, 2018 1:43:59 GMT
If you think I’m suggesting you get hyped for Anthem, I’m not. You shouldn’t have any expectations good or bad for a game we ultimately know so little about. I’m just saying we don’t really know to what extent the traditional Bioware storytelling elements (Choices and Characters) are being left by the wayside here if at all. I’m content to come to no conclusions until I see more. That’s not giving them the benefit of the doubt, that’s just collating data. But given both the lack of information about Anthem, as well as Bioware's last few outings, especially that colossal "meh" that was MEA, and the dumpster fire that was ME3, what kind of expectations SHOULD we have? None in my opinion. Just each game on its own merits when we have information on it. I wouldn't go into a movie thinking it would be automatically good because I liked the last thing I watched from Paramount I liked.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 7, 2018 2:03:30 GMT
If you think I’m suggesting you get hyped for Anthem, I’m not. You shouldn’t have any expectations good or bad for a game we ultimately know so little about. I’m just saying we don’t really know to what extent the traditional Bioware storytelling elements (Choices and Characters) are being left by the wayside here if at all. I’m content to come to no conclusions until I see more. That’s not giving them the benefit of the doubt, that’s just collating data. But given both the lack of information about Anthem, as well as Bioware's last few outings, especially that colossal "meh" that was MEA, and the dumpster fire that was ME3, what kind of expectations SHOULD we have? You shouldn’t have any. I try not to. As a rule, I prefer to judge whether I’ll like game based on what I know about it, not based on my feelings towards the developer. That’s why I’m giving Greedfall a chance despite being disappointed by Technomancer
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 7, 2018 2:17:24 GMT
I can’t be the only one who remembers this marketing gem: So funny and bizarre. Nothing could have misrepresented the game more.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 7, 2018 2:38:05 GMT
But given both the lack of information about Anthem, as well as Bioware's last few outings, especially that colossal "meh" that was MEA, and the dumpster fire that was ME3, what kind of expectations SHOULD we have? You shouldn’t have any. I try not to. As a rule, I prefer to judge whether I’ll like game based on what I know about it, not based on my feelings towards the developer. That’s why I’m giving Greedfall a chance despite being disappointed by Technomancer So what's the point of marketing at all? If past successes or failures don't matter, and we can't trust what we're shown because it's only what they think we want to see, what's the point of even having an Anthem forum?
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 7, 2018 2:45:53 GMT
You shouldn’t have any. I try not to. As a rule, I prefer to judge whether I’ll like game based on what I know about it, not based on my feelings towards the developer. That’s why I’m giving Greedfall a chance despite being disappointed by Technomancer So what's the point of marketing at all? If past successes or failures don't matter, and we can't trust what we're shown because it's only what they think we want to see, what's the point of even having an Anthem forum? To discuss theories and impressions with others interested in finding out more? The point of marketing is to try and convince people to buy a product, it really isn’t usually in the consumer’s best interest to take carefully crafted presentation at face value.
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Post by goishen on Feb 7, 2018 4:37:37 GMT
Why would they lead their first look at their new IP with anything but its strongest feature? Advertising isn’t about showing off the strongest feature, it’s about showing off a marketable feature. In this case, I think the demo was pointedly targeted at the Destiny/Division/Warframe audience, to show them that this is something they might like. Think about it, Bioware’s marketing has almost never been targeted at the RPG crowd. Every game’s marketing campaign that I can think of in the past ten+ years has spotlighted big action set pieces, not storytelling. Remember the “This is the new shit” DAO trailers? By using the exact same marketing technique? I could swear to god I was watch the Division and/or Destiny trailer again. Meh. I mean, that's fine if BioWare wants to become like them. I'm sure that they've sold more copies and are pulling in more income, but just meh. That's just not the BioWare I know.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 7, 2018 6:49:51 GMT
Advertising isn’t about showing off the strongest feature, it’s about showing off a marketable feature. In this case, I think the demo was pointedly targeted at the Destiny/Division/Warframe audience, to show them that this is something they might like. Think about it, Bioware’s marketing has almost never been targeted at the RPG crowd. Every game’s marketing campaign that I can think of in the past ten+ years has spotlighted big action set pieces, not storytelling. Remember the “This is the new shit” DAO trailers? By using the exact same marketing technique? I could swear to god I was watch the Division and/or Destiny trailer again. Meh. I mean, that's fine if BioWare wants to become like them. I'm sure that they've sold more copies and are pulling in more income, but just meh. That's just not the BioWare I know. Really, the BioWare I know has always been chasing something new. I remember the criticism they got when making sequels to Dragon Age and Mass Effect because BioWare was always about new things. Even massive differences between the Mass Effect games, I would say Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2/3, and Mass Effect: Andromeda were vastly different then one another same with Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, and Dragon Age: Inquisition and neither of those franchises are anything like Jade Empire. Marketing is no longer done by BioWare its done by the marketing team at EA, so you won't see marketing like BioWare from the past because they no longer control it so it will be down to spreadsheets and sales numbers to determine who to market to. They are going to focus the majority of the marketing on the audience they think they have the biggest chance of getting interested in the game. As far as what the game will actually be like, who knows the game was still years away from development back with that short E3 trailer if you even want to call it that. I bet the fake VoIP was probably due to the voice actor's strike and they had to do something that could be explained away. It is always easier to show what you have done in the game which is primary systems and the world because those will be the first things done and the more RPG like elements are probably polished much later in development for if they do it too early they cannot test them and we all know how the internet likes broken things in a BioWare release. (Edit:) I remember Dragon Age: Inquisition how they had to cut major pieces of content during optimization because of reasons and how people got all pissy about that. I rather not see content they cannot confirm to be in the game if it gets cut and prevent another "but you promised" type of internet action because something wasn't fully developed and then removed, but a video on the internet is a promise to be there.
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Post by coldsteelblue on Feb 7, 2018 11:37:30 GMT
I can’t be the only one who remembers this marketing gem: DA:O was the first game that really got me onto BW & I got it as a lucky b/day prezzie, knew nothing about the game before I played it but this trailer pretty much shows it as a hack & slash adventure & not what the game truly was, glad I hadn't seen this trailer until now in all honesty.
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Post by goishen on Feb 7, 2018 15:56:38 GMT
Really, the BioWare I know has always been chasing something new. I remember the criticism they got when making sequels to Dragon Age and Mass Effect because BioWare was always about new things. Even massive differences between the Mass Effect games, I would say Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2/3, and Mass Effect: Andromeda were vastly different then one another same with Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, and Dragon Age: Inquisition and neither of those franchises are anything like Jade Empire. Marketing is no longer done by BioWare its done by the marketing team at EA, so you won't see marketing like BioWare from the past because they no longer control it so it will be down to spreadsheets and sales numbers to determine who to market to. They are going to focus the majority of the marketing on the audience they think they have the biggest chance of getting interested in the game. As far as what the game will actually be like, who knows the game was still years away from development back with that short E3 trailer if you even want to call it that. I bet the fake VoIP was probably due to the voice actor's strike and they had to do something that could be explained away. It is always easier to show what you have done in the game which is primary systems and the world because those will be the first things done and the more RPG like elements are probably polished much later in development for if they do it too early they cannot test them and we all know how the internet likes broken things in a BioWare release. (Edit:) I remember Dragon Age: Inquisition how they had to cut major pieces of content during optimization because of reasons and how people got all pissy about that. I rather not see content they cannot confirm to be in the game if it gets cut and prevent another "but you promised" type of internet action because something wasn't fully developed and then removed, but a video on the internet is a promise to be there. I dunno. BioWare seems to have found a formula that works, and that formula is Video Game Novels. That's fine if other gaming companies like TTG and DontNod have picked up on that forumla, but the entire BioWare team has seemed to abandon the entire idea by searching for something new. TTG and DontNod are just purely focused on the story. Don't get me wrong, I love the entire trilogy, but for differing reasons. The main theme of those is that the story remains consistent. To ask a person what specifically they loved about the trilogy would be to ask a person what they love about neapolitan ice cream and which flavor they like best. Well, it's kind'a hard to say about one specifically unless you focus on each flavor specifically. Otherwise your answer is just going to be a mishmash of all the flavors mixed together. Same goes for DA.
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