Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 7, 2018 5:20:00 GMT
Because Destiny probably sold more in a month than the most successful Bioware game has ever sold, despite crappy reviews. That's great and all, but why get Bioware to do it? Get a developer that specializes in multiplayer shooters and let them run wild with it. Give them the task instead and let Edmonton continue to crank out high-quality niche games like they used to do. And voila! Just like that, you've got a diversified company that produces both types of games, and if the market ever sours on one of them you've got the other one to fall back on. And if they didn't want Bioware to make singleplayer games, why acquire Bioware, a company that specializes in SP titles, in the first place? It just strikes me as a short-sighted, arbitrary business decision with no productive purpose. It might have been the developers choice of game to make. The time they started working on Anthem was the same time the hatred about the endings of Mass Effect 3 was probably at its peak and they wanted to scrap the systems and maybe even not make anything for that audience. They after all are people and the non-stop online barrage could have pushed them away from what they have done in the past. Not everything is an EA decision and this could have been the guys at BioWare going "we want to make something completely different then what we have been doing for nearly the last decade". So BioWare could have lost all that talent if they decided that they had to keep making single player games that nobody seems to like unless its in prototype stages or lost those employees looking for something different to do.
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 7, 2018 5:31:53 GMT
That's great and all, but why get Bioware to do it? Get a developer that specializes in multiplayer shooters and let them run wild with it. Give them the task instead and let Edmonton continue to crank out high-quality niche games like they used to do. And voila! Just like that, you've got a diversified company that produces both types of games, and if the market ever sours on one of them you've got the other one to fall back on. And if they didn't want Bioware to make singleplayer games, why acquire Bioware, a company that specializes in SP titles, in the first place? It just strikes me as a short-sighted, arbitrary business decision with no productive purpose. My guess is Anthem initally wasn't like this, but after Destiny it was. Just like after Skyrim they went open world. And Destiny is seen as part RPG so they bioware with both shooter and rpg experience seemed a natural fit, and instead of making yet another IP they altered plans on Anthem to fit. This is my theory as well. Anthem started out as your standard Bioware game with party members and SP focus in the early embryo stages. Then Destiny happened and EA being EA probably intervened and made Bioware shift to a MP structure which is cheaper and easier to monetize post release.
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 7, 2018 5:40:14 GMT
That's great and all, but why get Bioware to do it? Get a developer that specializes in multiplayer shooters and let them run wild with it. Give them the task instead and let Edmonton continue to crank out high-quality niche games like they used to do. And voila! Just like that, you've got a diversified company that produces both types of games, and if the market ever sours on one of them you've got the other one to fall back on. And if they didn't want Bioware to make singleplayer games, why acquire Bioware, a company that specializes in SP titles, in the first place? It just strikes me as a short-sighted, arbitrary business decision with no productive purpose. It might have been the developers choice of game to make. The time they started working on Anthem was the same time the hatred about the endings of Mass Effect 3 was probably at its peak and they wanted to scrap the systems and maybe even not make anything for that audience. They after all are people and the non-stop online barrage could have pushed them away from what they have done in the past. Not everything is an EA decision and this could have been the guys at BioWare going "we want to make something completely different then what we have been doing for nearly the last decade". So BioWare could have lost all that talent if they decided that they had to keep making single player games that nobody seems to like unless its in prototype stages or lost those employees looking for something different to do. Maybe there is a reason why people didnt like their games that had nothing to do with SP. And to act like EA is completely hands off is a really naive statement. First it was not EA's decision for the BF2 loot boxes and now its not EA's decision for Bioware to go MP. Whats next?
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 7, 2018 6:29:18 GMT
It might have been the developers choice of game to make. The time they started working on Anthem was the same time the hatred about the endings of Mass Effect 3 was probably at its peak and they wanted to scrap the systems and maybe even not make anything for that audience. They after all are people and the non-stop online barrage could have pushed them away from what they have done in the past. Not everything is an EA decision and this could have been the guys at BioWare going "we want to make something completely different then what we have been doing for nearly the last decade". So BioWare could have lost all that talent if they decided that they had to keep making single player games that nobody seems to like unless its in prototype stages or lost those employees looking for something different to do. Maybe there is a reason why people didnt like their games that had nothing to do with SP. And to act like EA is completely hands off is a really naive statement. First it was not EA's decision for the BF2 loot boxes and now its not EA's decision for Bioware to go MP. Whats next? 1) I never said that EA wasn't responsible for lootboxes in Battlefront 2, I said that Disney could have put the end to cosmetic items and not that EA was completely innocent. 2) I never said that EA was completely hands off either, I said the people who worked on Mass Effect 3 might have wanted to do something different. Nothing in that statement about how they wouldn't have worked with EA to find a new type of project to work on, just that they didn't want to make another game like Mass Effect and that could have been part of how people reacted to Mass Effect 3. I think Bungie is a good example of that, there were people that worked on Halo and wanted to continue to do so formed 343 and stayed with Microsoft, but the others took the Bungie name and made Destiny.
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Post by larsdt on Mar 7, 2018 6:41:26 GMT
It might have been the developers choice of game to make. The time they started working on Anthem was the same time the hatred about the endings of Mass Effect 3 was probably at its peak and they wanted to scrap the systems and maybe even not make anything for that audience. They after all are people and the non-stop online barrage could have pushed them away from what they have done in the past. Not everything is an EA decision and this could have been the guys at BioWare going "we want to make something completely different then what we have been doing for nearly the last decade". So BioWare could have lost all that talent if they decided that they had to keep making single player games that nobody seems to like unless its in prototype stages or lost those employees looking for something different to do. Maybe there is a reason why people didnt like their games that had nothing to do with SP. And to act like EA is completely hands off is a really naive statement. First it was not EA's decision for the BF2 loot boxes and now its not EA's decision for Bioware to go MP. Whats next? Whether Anthem turns out to be some SP/MP or RPG/shooter concoction, it seems logical that the original idea for this new IP was conceived by Bioware to expand their own portfolio. Otherwise they could have used their resources on the ME and DA franchises. EA gave the green light as long as the game was kept under the Frostbite umbrella: Whatever the market demands, be it SP RPGs or MP shooters, EA can provide these games with their own engine. Letting Bioware develop Anthem keeps all those man hours already put into the Frostbite engine from "straying off". Regarding loot boxes, this is not some over night decision. It's not like someone at EA suddenly got an epiphany and said we can make a ton of money on this. They have been gradually introduced into the games with EA continuously pushing the envelope. Take a look at EA's annual release of sports games and you can see they have added more and more online features. Initially, this may have been their interpretation of their "live service". Then they found out gamers were willing to pay for this "service" and the ball started rolling. Anthem has been a long time in development and most of what we have heard are rumors and second hand info. If there is any truth to it, the development has probably been much more complex than just EA writing a check and giving Bioware the go ahead. During any development process, a lot of ideas about the content will be pushed back an forth. I don't think it is ever that clear cut who can take the credit or criticism for a game feature.
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Post by samhain444 on Mar 7, 2018 6:53:47 GMT
My theory is "Anthem" started as a Space-tank simulator...I mean, since we're all just pulling stuff out of our asses
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Post by larsdt on Mar 7, 2018 7:08:59 GMT
My theory is "Anthem" started as a Space-tank simulator...I mean, since we're all just pulling stuff out of our asses As good a theory as any. Maybe is was originally an exclusive for Nintendo64 and intended to compete with Duke Nukem. Then Duke got delayed for 15 years and...
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 7, 2018 8:20:32 GMT
My theory is "Anthem" started as a Space-tank simulator...I mean, since we're all just pulling stuff out of our asses Welcome to the 'pulling stuff out or asses' thread. Looking forward to EA Play when we should at least better understand what we're dealing with. In fairness, Anthem would appear to contain 'Destiny-like' elements, it remains to be seen what else...
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Agent 46
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Mar 7, 2018 8:35:09 GMT
Maybe we could merge this thread with the ones where people pull all kinds of single player content out of their asses?
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 7, 2018 10:32:46 GMT
Maybe we could merge this thread with the ones where people pull all kinds of single player content out of their asses? Looked for a suitable image. This was one of the few I could post (won't do that again)
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 7, 2018 10:46:04 GMT
Maybe we could merge this thread with the ones where people pull all kinds of single player content out of their asses? Looked for a suitable image. This was one of the few I could post (won't do that again) Kinda rude. Bastet is not pleased.
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Wulfram
N3
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Origin: wulfram77
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Post by Wulfram on Mar 7, 2018 11:13:12 GMT
Because Destiny probably sold more in a month than the most successful Bioware game has ever sold, despite crappy reviews. That's great and all, but why get Bioware to do it? Get a developer that specializes in multiplayer shooters and let them run wild with it. Give them the task instead and let Edmonton continue to crank out high-quality niche games like they used to do. And voila! Just like that, you've got a diversified company that produces both types of games, and if the market ever sours on one of them you've got the other one to fall back on. And if they didn't want Bioware to make singleplayer games, why acquire Bioware, a company that specializes in SP titles, in the first place? It just strikes me as a short-sighted, arbitrary business decision with no productive purpose. We don't know that Anthem actually is a strict Destiny clone, the game may well take advantage of Bioware expertise in story telling. Plus Bioware has experience making Shooter-RPGs and also an MMO, which makes them a pretty logical company as any to make a shooter MMORPG Making highly expensive niche games seems like a highly risky business strategy, and the focus on cinematic presentation mean that Bioware's games can't be made cheap - trying to make Dragon Age on the cheap led to DA2 which caused significant damage to the brands.
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 7, 2018 11:19:49 GMT
That's great and all, but why get Bioware to do it? Get a developer that specializes in multiplayer shooters and let them run wild with it. Give them the task instead and let Edmonton continue to crank out high-quality niche games like they used to do. And voila! Just like that, you've got a diversified company that produces both types of games, and if the market ever sours on one of them you've got the other one to fall back on. And if they didn't want Bioware to make singleplayer games, why acquire Bioware, a company that specializes in SP titles, in the first place? It just strikes me as a short-sighted, arbitrary business decision with no productive purpose. We don't know that Anthem actually is a strict Destiny clone, the game may well take advantage of Bioware expertise in story telling. Plus Bioware has experience making Shooter-RPGs and also an MMO, which makes them a pretty logical company as any to make a shooter MMORPG Making highly expensive niche games seems like a highly risky business strategy, and the focus on cinematic presentation mean that Bioware's games can't be made cheap - trying to make Dragon Age on the cheap led to DA2 which caused significant damage to the brands. I always wanted to know where that detail in your avatar is from.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 7, 2018 11:39:22 GMT
he always strikes me as cold and uncaring about anything but the business Perhaps. Though if you don't care about the business, then everyone's job is at risk. Then why is their biggest project a Destiny clone? Lol. Anthem was in development 2.5 years before Destiny launched (the first tease pre-dated Destiny's release). We'll see in June, but 'Destiny clone' seems too lazy as a brief description. I'm sure they adapted as they saw the things Destiny did right, and that was undoubtedly the raids and the loot. Have you played Destiny and did you see its E3 demos? I did both and when I saw Anthem all I could think of "wow, they're really treading in footsteps here" from the scripted voice actors acting like gamers that discuss loot over "voice chat" to them assembling before the raid instance "storm" thing at the end of the demo. This is Destiny alright. The only thing that remains to be seen is how the narrative approach they take to it differs whereas Destiny only provided RPG as far as "custom character creation" went. It had a completely linear story like in a Halo game (nevermind it was horrendeously written) but there was a little satisfaction in seeing your male or female character with whatever skin-color or hair or species you chose act out the 3 or 4 lines they got in cinematics. In fact, there was just enough that, since there's not been any actual indication of branching narrative or dialogue wheels for Anthem yet, I really worry it's going to be inferior to Destiny as far as game-design goes, but somehow I'm sure it'll feel richer in scope, simply because it's been in development for this long now and I think the 3 teams at BioWare easily outdoes the size of Bungie.
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Origin: wulfram77
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Post by Wulfram on Mar 7, 2018 11:55:04 GMT
We don't know that Anthem actually is a strict Destiny clone, the game may well take advantage of Bioware expertise in story telling. Plus Bioware has experience making Shooter-RPGs and also an MMO, which makes them a pretty logical company as any to make a shooter MMORPG Making highly expensive niche games seems like a highly risky business strategy, and the focus on cinematic presentation mean that Bioware's games can't be made cheap - trying to make Dragon Age on the cheap led to DA2 which caused significant damage to the brands. I always wanted to know where that detail in your avatar is from. Its medieval marginalia, I can't be more specific than that.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Mar 7, 2018 12:10:20 GMT
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 7, 2018 12:48:27 GMT
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 7, 2018 13:06:15 GMT
Making highly expensive niche games seems like a highly risky business strategy, and the focus on cinematic presentation mean that Bioware's games can't be made cheap - trying to make Dragon Age on the cheap led to DA2 which caused significant damage to the brands. I doubt Guerilla Games and CDPR lost any money from Horizon and Witcher 3.....
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 7, 2018 13:07:54 GMT
Making highly expensive niche games seems like a highly risky business strategy, and the focus on cinematic presentation mean that Bioware's games can't be made cheap - trying to make Dragon Age on the cheap led to DA2 which caused significant damage to the brands. I doubt Guerilla Games and CDPR lost any money from Horizon and Witcher 3..... How many others have not met expectations in the meantime? Prey doesn't sound like it did that well, neither with Dishonored 2.
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 7, 2018 13:11:26 GMT
Perhaps. Though if you don't care about the business, then everyone's job is at risk. Anthem was in development 2.5 years before Destiny launched (the first tease pre-dated Destiny's release). We'll see in June, but 'Destiny clone' seems too lazy as a brief description. I'm sure they adapted as they saw the things Destiny did right, and that was undoubtedly the raids and the loot. Have you played Destiny and did you see its E3 demos? I did both and when I saw Anthem all I could think of "wow, they're really treading in footsteps here" from the scripted voice actors acting like gamers that discuss loot over "voice chat" to them assembling before the raid instance "storm" thing at the end of the demo. This is Destiny alright. The only thing that remains to be seen is how the narrative approach they take to it differs whereas Destiny only provided RPG as far as "custom character creation" went. It had a completely linear story like in a Halo game (nevermind it was horrendeously written) but there was a little satisfaction in seeing your male or female character with whatever skin-color or hair or species you chose act out the 3 or 4 lines they got in cinematics. In fact, there was just enough that, since there's not been any actual indication of branching narrative or dialogue wheels for Anthem yet, I really worry it's going to be inferior to Destiny as far as game-design goes, but somehow I'm sure it'll feel richer in scope, simply because it's been in development for this long now and I think the 3 teams at BioWare easily outdoes the size of Bungie. Yes, the E3 2017 demo seemed to be aimed more at that Destiny audience. It is something when a Bioware E3 demo has no focus on characters, choices, and story and is replaced with coop scripted gameplay, loot references, and Raid hints. How much different is the Anthem E3 reveal different from the Destiny E3 reveal?
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 7, 2018 13:14:35 GMT
I doubt Guerilla Games and CDPR lost any money from Horizon and Witcher 3..... How many others have not met expectations in the meantime? Prey doesn't sound like it did that well, neither with Dishonored 2. Bioware has a proven track record of making expectations. Wasnt DAI the fastest selling Bioware game and did a lot to help EA's FY2015 Q1 earnings? Are you implying that Bioware cannot compete with the likes of CDPR and Guerrilla Games?
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Post by Wulfram on Mar 7, 2018 13:17:22 GMT
Making highly expensive niche games seems like a highly risky business strategy, and the focus on cinematic presentation mean that Bioware's games can't be made cheap - trying to make Dragon Age on the cheap led to DA2 which caused significant damage to the brands. I doubt Guerilla Games and CDPR lost any money from Horizon and Witcher 3..... Both open world games. Open world RPGs can obviously sell lots, hence DAI going that way.
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Post by majesticjazz on Mar 7, 2018 13:31:54 GMT
I doubt Guerilla Games and CDPR lost any money from Horizon and Witcher 3..... Both open world games. Open world RPGs can obviously sell lots, hence DAI going that way. The key is open world games done right. Once TW3 came out, people began to criticize DAI in retrospect and MEA missed the mark. The problem with Bioware is that they do not know how to make corrections to their games while still holding true to their values. Instead, Bioware exaggerates and overcorrects. Case in point: People didnt have the mako and they liked the concept of Uncharted worlds, they just thought they were poorly implemented. Instead of keeping the mako and UC worlds for ME2 but using the feedback to make the UC worlds terrain better and less UC worlds but at the same time, UC worlds with more quality and activities and making the Mako more functional.....they completely scrap both. Now let's look at Bethesda. People have been complaining about their combat since Morrowind and yet Skyrim still features Morrowind-esq combat. However, there have been improvements from Morrowind, to Oblivion, to Skyrim and Bethesda. If it were Bioware, Skyrim would have been a God of War style hack and slash and lesser and lesser RPG features and lesser and lesser emergent activities. Anthem represents another overcorrection. If Anthem flops, what is Bioware going to do next?
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 7, 2018 13:40:50 GMT
How many others have not met expectations in the meantime? Prey doesn't sound like it did that well, neither with Dishonored 2. Bioware has a proven track record of making expectations. Wasnt DAI the fastest selling Bioware game and did a lot to help EA's FY2015 Q1 earnings? Are you implying that Bioware cannot compete with the likes of CDPR and Guerrilla Games? Yes, since I think both of those games sold better then Mass Effect 3 which is reported to be BioWare's best selling game at 3.3 million copies total sold. It was reported in early 2018 that Horizon Zero Dawn sold 7.8 million copies and The Witcher 3 sold 6 million copies as of the summer of 2016. So yes I don't think BioWare will find that level of success without making changes. As far as Dragon Age: Inquisition a lot of people were fast to point out that is the only mention of Dragon Age: Inquisition there was never any touting of how many total copies the game sold in any EA financial briefing after the one in the launch window to indicate it sold better then even Dragon Age 2. Edit: Something I did find out about The Witcher games is that CDPR says that it has sold 25 million copies of the franchise. The reports are the first game sold two million copies and the second sold six million so if those numbers are right CDPR sold 17 million copies of The Witcher 3. If that number is accurate that number I bet is better then the lifetime sales of all BioWare games combined. So the game that people keep saying they want from BioWare is a niche product because people don't buy them, they want open world games or games will a more focused story. More people want games that aren't like what BioWare offers.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ShadowAngel on Mar 7, 2018 14:35:55 GMT
Perhaps. Though if you don't care about the business, then everyone's job is at risk. Anthem was in development 2.5 years before Destiny launched (the first tease pre-dated Destiny's release). We'll see in June, but 'Destiny clone' seems too lazy as a brief description. I'm sure they adapted as they saw the things Destiny did right, and that was undoubtedly the raids and the loot. Have you played Destiny and did you see its E3 demos? I did both and when I saw Anthem all I could think of "wow, they're really treading in footsteps here" from the scripted voice actors acting like gamers that discuss loot over "voice chat" to them assembling before the raid instance "storm" thing at the end of the demo. This is Destiny alright. The only thing that remains to be seen is how the narrative approach they take to it differs whereas Destiny only provided RPG as far as "custom character creation" went. It had a completely linear story like in a Halo game (nevermind it was horrendeously written) but there was a little satisfaction in seeing your male or female character with whatever skin-color or hair or species you chose act out the 3 or 4 lines they got in cinematics. In fact, there was just enough that, since there's not been any actual indication of branching narrative or dialogue wheels for Anthem yet, I really worry it's going to be inferior to Destiny as far as game-design goes, but somehow I'm sure it'll feel richer in scope, simply because it's been in development for this long now and I think the 3 teams at BioWare easily outdoes the size of Bungie. How big would you assume the 3 teams of Bioware to be? I can for sure tell you Bungie has 800+ employees at the least (Bungie's wiki will show 750 as of 2016, but they stated around 800 partook in D2s development). I can't find anything on biowares #s, but I'd guesstimate around 100ish for each studio based off their pictures they take of their teams.
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