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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Mar 31, 2018 7:28:59 GMT
I'm not talking about point of views,I just asked if someone really have proofs that he and Uldred were on the same boat before Ostagar,because there is a huge difference between premeditated actions and just wrong actions. They were in same boat: „Uldred is first seen at the war council at Ostagar, just before the Battle of Ostagar. Uldred contends that lighting the beacon at the Tower of Ishal is unnecessary and that the Circle of Magi can contribute instead of dispatching Grey Wardens to light a signal fire. His opinions are angrily dismissed by a Revered Mother standing next to him.
After Ostagar, Uldred nearly convinces the Circle to support Loghain Mac Tir, claiming that Loghain will reward the Circle's support by granting it more freedom from the Chantry. Wynne reveals Loghain's treachery to the Circle, destroying any tentative support for Loghain from the Circle. At a meeting to discuss the Circle's alliance, Uldred attempts to explain away Loghain's actions, but the other mages are unconvinced and Uldred attempts to leave. Irving does not allow this, and Uldred attacks, along with a group of blood mages supporting him. During this fight Uldred attempts to summon a Pride demon but is overwhelmed and becomes an abomination.”
I know, this is not a real strong proof Loghain was directly involved, but even suggests that. As I said: it's vague. But to comere the other questions, seems not incidental. I said: everything is vague, to made place to the different opinions. Well, it's certainly evidence that each was making plans that hinged on the other helping out. But that's something that makes a lot of sense for Loghain and Uldred to do in a country that's seeing a large darkspawn raid, since each of them has a whole lot of power of the sort the other lacks. And at any rate, that's hardly illegal by any standard, and if you're arguing that that means Loghain's responsible for what Uldred did (or would have supported it had he known of it) I don't see it. I especially don't think Loghain would have suggested that Uldred use a Pride Demon to overthrow the Circle, since whatever Loghain's other plans were, what Uldred did doesn't seem like it would move them forward. It just means another domestic crisis of the sort that Loghain has way too many of right then, but with the added complication that this one involves demons. |
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Mark7
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
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Post by Mark7 on Apr 4, 2018 21:24:44 GMT
I think having the Wardens on the front line was more of a political move. The Wardens are on very shaky ground in Ferelden, and it's pretty much only Cailan's favor that allows them to stay. Duncan simply can't go "nah, my lads will stay back at camp and wait for *mumblemumble*" while the soldiers fight the darkspawn. There's also that darkspawn are drawn to Wardens - if the Wardens are all down in the bottleneck, that can keep the horde unified and moving at them. There were less than 5 wardens on the front line,and I doubt that 5 wardens can draw an army of thousands of darkspawns,they don't have the calling powers the Archdemons does. I don't know why the writers makes the GW to look and feel so unbelivable in the actions they take,between this and Inquisition. |
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Apr 4, 2018 22:06:30 GMT
Loghain abandoned his king on the field of battle, claiming it was necessary, but Duncan said the plan would work. And it would have... if Cailan had not ignored the plan. The War Council made it clear that the plan was supposed to have been that the King's forces and the Wardens would draw the Darkspawn into the valley, where upon Loghain's forces would flank them once the signal fire was lit. But as we saw, Cailan decided to call for a charge. By going on the offensive, he moved his men out of position and broke the defensive line he was meant to be holding. In the valley we even can see several wooden ramparts in place, clearly intended to serve as defensive fortifications and choke points to break up the horde's advancement. (In Return to Ostagar, where are all the bodies that the necromancer genlock revives? Beyond the ramparts and valley) That's not to say a charge couldn't have been used in that situation, but the forces should have only done so to slow down the first wave, grab their attention, then fall back. However from where we saw Cailan and Duncan fall on the battlefield, beyond the ramparts and almost out of the valley, it seems that the army never stopped advancing. Loghain definitely did some indefensible things after Ostagar, but I don't think we can blame Ostagar going belly-up on him. I'm more inclined to put the fault on Cailan for not remembering basic instructions he was given only 5 minutes earlier. (Granted, I lack any military knowledge/experience, so I'm talking as a bit of an armchair general here. And the graphical limitations of DAO's engine mean that we can't really know the full extent of what actually happened, only what we can piece together from the scant bits of the battle we see) |
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Aren
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Aren on Apr 5, 2018 18:01:34 GMT
Loghain blamed the Wardens for king's death. Loghain didn't know the Tower was invaded by Darkspawn, so him assuming the Wardens delayed the signal on purpose is a valid -- albeit wrong -- thought. |
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 6, 2018 18:25:54 GMT
Loghain did not abandoned the king on purpose and this convo is proof of it.I think those who claim the contrary do it only for their own bias towards the character. It would be ironic to see the Warden of players who condemned Loghain to summary execution live long enough to be forced to make a hard choice(Dark Ritual) and, as they try to defend their actions(which may have empowered Solas by the time of DA4), end up being portrayed as villains. And then, to be judged and condemned just like Loghain.Lol |
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DragonEffect
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Pathfinding my way through life.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Pathfinding my way through life.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by DragonEffect on Jun 2, 2023 1:06:41 GMT
I started replaying DA:O today and Loghain LITERALLY warns Cailan to NOT join the front lines.
He LITERALLY tried to save Cailan's life because he knew the battle could not go as predicted - the enemy was a relative unknown. No one had battled a darkspawn horde in over 400 years - and yet Cailan CHOSE to ignore his advice.
If Loghain intended to betray Cailan, he would've have goaded Cailan into following his blind idealism for glorious battles and heroic deeds.
Loghain is NOT a traitor, period. He did make a mistake, though, by watching the flow of battle and choosing to turn away once he realised the king was dead. But perhaps he chose to do so because the very military effort of going to the king's rescue was too risky and would result in a lot of people dying in the process, WITH the king possibly still being killed by the darkspawn. Remember, Duncan warned Cailan Bann Teagan was going to send reinforcements and that they would arrive in a week at most. They could also have waited for the arrival of the Orlesian Wardens. But no. The battle had to happen that night, "for Cailan's glory".
The king signed his own death sentence by ignoring EVERY advice his military expert gave him. And Loghain DID HIS DUTY in keeping him safe. He did as much as he could, as much as the king ALLOWED him to do. And even so, the king still got himself killed.
Now try to see it through a military expert's eyes: your leader wants to use your troops as toys in a battle that will bring nothing but glory for themselves. They battlefield is a playground in their childish fantasy. It doesn't matter how many soldiers die, so long as they get to play the hero. Would you have any respect for them, when your soldiers count on you to make the best decision regarding them, to not waste their lives meaninglessly and to ensure they live to fight another day and to one day, go back to their families and their children?
That's what was going on in Loghain's mind. Because, should Cailan even survive the battle of Ostagar, how many other battles would he make the Ferelden troops go through just to sate his childish need for "glory"?
PS: Let's not forget Celene was seducing Cailan - playing the Game, as usual - and that Cailan and Loghain had had some argument about Anora prior to the battle of Ostagar. There was enough conflict between the two to cause Cailan to LOSE Loghain's faith in and loyalty to him. And a leader that no longer has the respect of their troops...well...you know what happens to them.
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Norstaera
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Stealth Swooper
This morning my husband said I was evil like June Cleaver. I cried a single tear of wicked happiness
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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This morning my husband said I was evil like June Cleaver. I cried a single tear of wicked happiness
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by Norstaera on Jun 20, 2023 16:44:46 GMT
What do we know? (Some of this is from The Calling and Stolen Throne, or at least more obviously from those books).
- Loghain doesn't trust Orlesians, Grey Wardens, or mages. I can understand this, having read the books.
- He did arrange for Eamon, Cailan's uncle, to be poisoned.
- If you take Riordan at his word, Loghain had already turned back at least some of the Orlesian reinforcements before the battle at Ostagar. This would have been against Cailan's wishes.
- He allied himself with Howe (or allowed Howe to ally w/ him).
- He knew Cailan.
- He knew the Couslands were strong contenders for the throne. They had been before Cailan was made king, and their power certainly wasn't less.
- **The Couslands believed there should be diplomatic as well as financial ties with other nations, including Orlais. This is the opposite of Loghain. I can't remember where I heard/read this, though. I may be wrong.
- His fealty was to Ferelden, not necessarily Ferelden's ruler.
- Yes, his daughter was queen. But after many years of marriage there was still no heir and there was grumbling. Tick, tock, biological clock.
- Cailan and Anora were both more favorably disposed to Empress Celene, that 30 years after kicking Orlais out, they had to look to the now and the future.
- Loghain was an isolationist. He even said as much (I don't remember the exact quote, but something about Fereldan needs to stand on its own/doesn't need others).
- He sold elves, citizens of Ferelden and specifically Denerim, into slavery. He conspired with Tevinter to do so.
- **He turned a blind eye to anything Howe did in the Alienage. By the time he promoted Howe, he had to know what kind of man he was. Admittedly this is more supposition than fact, but I think it's a fair inference.
- He led the Night Elves, a guerrilla squad of elven archers, during the Ferelden Rebellion against Orlais. (Dragon Age: The Stolen Throne)
- Loghain ain't no dummy.
- Cailan and Loghain had been arguing for days.
I started replaying DA:O today and Loghain LITERALLY warns Cailan to NOT join the front lines. He LITERALLY tried to save Cailan's life because he knew the battle could not go as predicted - the enemy was a relative unknown. No one had battled a darkspawn horde in over 400 years - and yet Cailan CHOSE to ignore his advice.
Loghain said everything he did was for Ferelden. Based on his hatred of Orlais, then preventing the Orlesian Wardens and chevaliers from entering Ferelden can be interpreted as doing his duty - even if it wasn't what Cailan wanted. Remember, he didn't swear fealty to Cailan. That's an easier argument to make (for him not being a traitor) than his poisoning of Arl Eamon. If he wasn't a traitor, did he poison Eamon because he knew Eamon wanted Cailan to set aside Anora and take another wife, one who could give Cailan children? Or, not believing it was a Blight, didn't want to leave Ferelden defenseless by having all armies at Ostagar?
Did he seize the opportunity to let Cailan die after learning that the Couslands (except Fergus) were dead? With Eamon and Bryce out of the way, there was no strong voice against him. I think we can presume word of Highever deaths reached him. In that case, still treason but more opportunistic than planned.
Up to Cailan's death, you can argue that Loghain was a traitor or that he made a tactical retreat. IMHO, it's his actions after Ostagar that are telling. Anora was now the de facto ruler of Ferelden, but Loghain claimed the title of regent. Why? She wasn't incapacitated or unavailable or stupid. She didn't agree about Orlais, and being regent gave him powers he wouldn't have as just her general.
The banns are free to offer their allegiance or not - his heavy-handed tactics are counter to the Ferelden he loves and led to civil war. I never understood why he would think they would just accept his rule. They weren't all allies or of like mind with him before Ostagar. The death of Cailan wouldn't change that. In fact, I can't help wondering if the bannorn would have remained united under Anora's rule, at least until after the darkspawn were dealt with. Cailan's widow, bravely continuing the fight ...
He allowed Howe a great deal of influence, even knowing/suspecting what kind of man he was. Fact: Howe went to Highever. Fact: Bryce Cousland etc. dead, Howe alive. Assuming that in Ostagar he didn't know what Howe did, he's bound to have heard rumors afterwards. Did Loghain have no other allies? If Howe was all he could get, shouldn't that have told him something?
Putting a bounty on the last 2 Grey Wardens, very junior ones at that ... seriously? The only reason to do that was because one of them was Alistair, Maric's bastard and a potential threat to Anora's or his rule. Starting rumors that the GW's somehow were responsible for Cailan's death is one thing. Let people question the organization, build up resentment/resistance to it. Let them be unwilling to support any GW. Even if Loghain believed it was some sort of nefarious GW plot that went horribly wrong, he'd have to know that the newbies wouldn't have been part of it, except unwittingly. They weren't in a position to refute any claims about the battle, they were busy in a tower and couldn't see a thing. They only knew afterwards that Cailan, Duncan, and the other Wardens were dead.
Ultimately, whether you believe he was a traitor or made a tactical retreat at Ostagar, he ultimately betrayed himself and Ferelden by becoming what he despised - a tyrant, like the Orlesian usurpers. It's a long way to go from leading the Night Elves to selling elves out of their homes to Tevinter. I think a part of him realized it, too.
Those are my thoughts, for now.
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