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Post by warden on Apr 29, 2018 22:14:49 GMT
Let's write your opinion about the topic! Okay. I never kill the werewolves after curing them. I've only ever killed the werewolves once period, and that was just to get the achievement. You actually feel bad when doing evil decisions? (even if it's only for achievements and then reload the save)
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2018 22:37:47 GMT
Okay. I never kill the werewolves after curing them. I've only ever killed the werewolves once period, and that was just to get the achievement. You actually feel bad when doing evil decisions? (even if it's only for achievements and then reload the save) Is it weird? I never play as evil, and I don't feel any desire to play as evil. I like to love my characters. I do not even have every achievement. I never killed the werewolves/elves, and never created golems or sided with Greagoir or killed the dog. Never defiled the ashes and never let "Kitty" to posses the girl in Honnelath. Never executed Nathaniel or gave Anders to the Templars, or sacrificed Amarantine or the Vigil's Keep. And never stabbed Morrigan.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 30, 2018 1:12:30 GMT
Catilina Siding with Gregoir isn't evil in fact it isn't even possible as he just let's the warden handling the problem while doing nothing. Murder knifing Morrigan isn't evil either as she just robbed the people and plotted to save the soul of a being that triggered the blight,in fact I would say helping her using a child and gambling the world is definetly more evil than attacking her. Helping the templars for the safety of the entire population is definetly good as the mages were as the game shows very much influenced by demons,and obviously you didn't saw the ending of Hawke in that scenario which is objectively more positive than the other. Please don't mention the word evil ever again because at this point is quite obvious you use it very loosely and poorly.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 30, 2018 1:26:45 GMT
Catilina Siding with Gregoir isn't evil in fact it isn't even possible as he just let's the warden handling the problem while doing nothing. Murder knifing Morrigan isn't evil either as she just robbed the people and plotted to save the soul of a being that triggered the blight,in fact I would say helping her using a child and gambling the world is definetly more evil than attacking her. Such a grace Greagoir let the Warden do his work! Okay, I worded badly, so: supporting the annulment is evil/ruthless. So, to kill Morrigan and to leave that child alone isn't evil?
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 30, 2018 1:54:28 GMT
Catilina Siding with Gregoir isn't evil in fact it isn't even possible as he just let's the warden handling the problem while doing nothing. Murder knifing Morrigan isn't evil either as she just robbed the people and plotted to save the soul of a being that triggered the blight,in fact I would say helping her using a child and gambling the world is definetly more evil than attacking her. Such a grace Greagoir let the Warden do his work! Okay, I worded badly, so: supporting the annulment is evil/ruthless. So, to kill Morrigan and to leave that child alone isn't evil? There is no annulment in DAO,Gregoir has no resources to call it,therefore siding with Gregoir is impossible as the protagonist as to act without his support,so it logically follows that Gregoir does nothing beside let you decide what you want to do so it makes no sense to deem an alliance that doesn't exist as evil.Not trusting the mages and therefore think they are all possessed(at least those on the top floors)isn't evil either,only wanting to kill them for poor motivations like those explained by Morrigan is evil.Well of course no DR means no child for her therefore I fail to see your question.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 30, 2018 1:57:36 GMT
Such a grace Greagoir let the Warden do his work! Okay, I worded badly, so: supporting the annulment is evil/ruthless. So, to kill Morrigan and to leave that child alone isn't evil? There is no annulment in DAO,Gregoir has no resources to call it,therefore siding with Gregoir is impossible as the protagonist as to act without his support,so it logically follows than Gregoir does nothing so it makes no sense to deem an alliance that doesn't exist as evil.Not trusting the mages and therefore think they are all possessed(at least those on the top floors)isn't evil either,only wanting to kill them for poor motivations like those explained by Morrigan is evil.Well of course no DR means no child for her therefore I fail to see your question. 1. Known uses of the Right of Annulment: [...] 9:30 Dragon (conditional): The Circle of Magi in Ferelden (during Broken Circle). After the Circle was overrun by abominations following Uldred's rebellion, Knight-Commander Greagoir invoked the Right and sent request to Grand Cleric Elemena to grant it along with additional templar reinforcements. Depending on the Warden's actions, Greagoir may revoke his request to invoke the Right of Annulment. 2. And what's your reason to kill her? Just for fun?
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 30, 2018 2:08:18 GMT
There is no annulment in DAO,Gregoir has no resources to call it,therefore siding with Gregoir is impossible as the protagonist as to act without his support,so it logically follows than Gregoir does nothing so it makes no sense to deem an alliance that doesn't exist as evil.Not trusting the mages and therefore think they are all possessed(at least those on the top floors)isn't evil either,only wanting to kill them for poor motivations like those explained by Morrigan is evil.Well of course no DR means no child for her therefore I fail to see your question. 1. Known uses of the Right of Annulment: [...] 9:30 Dragon (conditional): The Circle of Magi in Ferelden (during Broken Circle). After the Circle was overrun by abominations following Uldred's rebellion, Knight-Commander Greagoir invoked the Right and sent request to Grand Cleric Elemena to grant it along with additional templar reinforcements. Depending on the Warden's actions, Greagoir may revoke his request to invoke the Right of Annulment. 2. And what's your reason to kill her? Just for fun? Once again you apply troll logic in order to avoid a reasonable explanation.It doesn't matter your quote is irrelevant because Gregoir never completed the right of annulment in DAO therefore he does nothing in the game so he can't be considered evil lol. Well no,Morrigan can be seen as a threat to eliminate by the warden,In fact I've already told you this woman wanted to save the ancient spirit of dragon able to cause a blight,and that robbed people in Ferelden,and who activates magical and potentially dangerous portals in the lands owned by the warden without asking for authorization while advocating for possible dramatic world change events.Lol clearly there are no reasons to see her as a criminal.Lol
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Post by Catilina on Apr 30, 2018 2:19:08 GMT
1. Known uses of the Right of Annulment: [...] 9:30 Dragon (conditional): The Circle of Magi in Ferelden (during Broken Circle). After the Circle was overrun by abominations following Uldred's rebellion, Knight-Commander Greagoir invoked the Right and sent request to Grand Cleric Elemena to grant it along with additional templar reinforcements. Depending on the Warden's actions, Greagoir may revoke his request to invoke the Right of Annulment. 2. And what's your reason to kill her? Just for fun? Once again you apply troll logic in order to avoid a reasonable explanation.It doesn't matter your quote is irrelevant because Gregoir never completed the right of annulment in DAO therefore he does nothing in the game so he can't be considered evil lol. Well no,Morrigan can be seen as a threat to eliminate by the warden,In fact I've already told you this woman wanted to save the ancient spirit of dragon able to cause a blight,and that robbed people in Ferelden,and who activates magical and potentially dangerous portals in the lands owned by the warden without asking for authorization while advocating for possible dramatic world change events.Lol clearly there are no reasons to see her as a criminal.Lol The Warden, at the moment not in the possession of this knowledge. Greagoir says, he will annul the Circle. This woman not worse than anyone else in DA. Almost all people are dangerous, then just let the Blight kill them all, and let the Maker sort'em out!
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 30, 2018 2:38:06 GMT
The Warden, at the moment not in the possession of this knowledge. Greagoir says, he will annul the Circle. This woman not worse than anyone else in DA. Almost all people are dangerous, then just let the Blight kill them all, and let the Maker sort'em out! Lol ,Gregoir does in fact tell you he doesn't have the resources to use the right of annulment and that's why he blocked the doors,but your troll logic says the warden has no way to know despite he told them everything .....lol that's more you not paying attention than Gregoir being evil.Lol once again you're wrong,most people aren't witches of the wilds and daughters of abominations ,most people don't have the knowledge to save archdemons souls or use eluvians and they surely didn't robbed any Dalish clan. XD Lol equating regular pesants to witches that can turn into dragons makes so much sense
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Post by q5tyhj on Apr 30, 2018 3:43:46 GMT
Meredith is a tyrant criminal. To support that can't serve any good. She's the madness herself. This is "evil". Meredith doesn't "only" breaks some "high morality" with her methods, but breaks the even Chantry's law, her own law, she swore to. To support her even with a faithful Andrastian's a nonsense. For some "greater good"? What? She failed in everything: even in her duty. Perhaps, with a common wo/man, to support her and to turn blind eyes to her methods can be simple fear from magic (Fenris, for example, not evil). But with Hawke's background to support that cruelty, is unbelievable with an intentional benevolence. The main question was, that Hawke and the Inquisitor can't be really evil. But they can. Your post is not an answer is just bias. A large number of mages in DA2 resorted to blood magic and summoned demons,Orsino did that himself when he became an abomination,he even supported Quentin.Whether or not Meredith is crazy is irrelevant as she has no influence on Hawke,the champion may decide on his/her own that's best to annul the circle in Kirkwall for the benefit of the majority of the population and Cullen even supports them and this is the only ending where Hawke is seen as an hero rather than being casted away and banned from the city. This of course has nothing to do with the contrived notion that they are Meredith's lackey,since if they were they wouldn't have killed her. If you can't accept the simple fact that non pro mages Hawke aren't necessarly evil,then the problem is just within you. Merideth doesn't ask you to vote in a Templars vs. Mages popularity contest, she asks you to assist in killing the Circle mages for a crime they had nothing to do with. If killing people for something someone else did is not evil, then literally nothing is. Maybe you're roleplaying a Hawke that deems it a necessary evil (i.e. that the ends justify the means), but a necessary evil is still an evil, and killing people for something someone else did is pretty indisputably and unambiguously evil. --- As it happens, allowing genuinely evil choices is almost always a good thing in a roleplaying game- it opens up more roleplaying possibilities (even if you never make those choices, I think their merely being there is still significant, the existence of an alternative means that when your character makes the morally upright/good choice, that they actually made a choice). And while DAO and DA2 both had some genuinely evil choices you could make (though the former certainly more than the latter), I think Inquisition suffered because there really weren't any such choices- at most, the Inquisitor could be amorally pragmatic, but not outright evil.
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Post by warden on Apr 30, 2018 4:43:20 GMT
You actually feel bad when doing evil decisions? (even if it's only for achievements and then reload the save) Is it weird? I never play as evil, and I don't feel any desire to play as evil. I like to love my characters. I do not even have every achievement. I never killed the werewolves/elves, and never created golems or sided with Greagoir or killed the dog. Never defiled the ashes and never let "Kitty" to posses the girl in Honnelath. Never executed Nathaniel or gave Anders to the Templars, or sacrificed Amarantine or the Vigil's Keep. And never stabbed Morrigan. I just asked out of curiosity, the rest ain't my concern really.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 30, 2018 5:05:16 GMT
Okay. I never kill the werewolves after curing them. I've only ever killed the werewolves once period, and that was just to get the achievement. You actually feel bad when doing evil decisions? (even if it's only for achievements and then reload the save) Depends how the game executes it really. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
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Post by warden on Apr 30, 2018 6:54:08 GMT
You actually feel bad when doing evil decisions? (even if it's only for achievements and then reload the save) Depends how the game executes it really. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I see, interesting to know.
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by talyn82 on Apr 30, 2018 16:47:05 GMT
Okay. I never kill the werewolves after curing them. I've only ever killed the werewolves once period, and that was just to get the achievement. You actually feel bad when doing evil decisions? (even if it's only for achievements and then reload the save) I sometimes feel bad when making evil choices in games. It depends on several factors. Like likability and the emotion the VA puts into their voice. A classic example for me is way back in 2003 when I first played Knights of the Old Republic. It was my first playthrough and I went darkside throughout the game. But towards the end when you have to demand blind obedience from your companions. I had no problem killing/betraying some of them. But when it came to Zaalbar and Mission. I felt terrible. The emotion in Mission's voice when she begs Zaalbar not to kill her, and when my character forces him to do so. I felt bad. Then a couple of minutes later when you board the Starforge, Zaalbar seeking vengeance turns on you. And you're forced to kill him. At that moment I restarted the game and played lightside. For the record I have no problem going darkside in the sequel, and Obsidian did a better job with DS choices than BioWare. Yeah, it my seem stupid to some. But sometimes the VA does such a good job.= it's hard for me to not feel bad. But if the character is dick and begs for their life I have no problem choosing the evil option.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2018 17:00:42 GMT
As it happens, allowing genuinely evil choices is almost always a good thing in a roleplaying game- it opens up more roleplaying possibilities (even if you never make those choices, I think their merely being there is still significant, the existence of an alternative means that when your character makes the morally upright/good choice, that they actually made a choice). And while DAO and DA2 both had some genuinely evil choices you could make (though the former certainly more than the latter), I think Inquisition suffered because there really weren't any such choices- at most, the Inquisitor could be amorally pragmatic, but not outright evil. You're right, it's important to have those 'evil' options even if the player never uses them. As you said by not taking the evil choice that in itself is roleplay and helping you form the mind of your charcater. Inquisition needed a little more edge in that regard. As to the other comments... What bugs me is those on the forum who always play paragon protagonists and act as if that makes them right, and the rest of us wrong. That by supporting the wolves, or Meredith, or the Templars we are deliberately being evil just for the hell of it. BioWare games are full of nuance and perspective, almost every choice can be justified by your characters previous experiences. There's hardly anything that can actually be called evil. Handing Fenris back to Danarius, killing the werewolves after the cure, allowing a child to be possessed are good examples, but siding with Gregoir or Meredith can easily be justified and even thought of as lawful good choices. I'm a wonderful person . Never hurt anyone in my life, never broke the law...but in game I've punched Solas, thrown mercs out of tall buildings, annulled the Circle twice, saved Loghain twice, sided with Meredith, supported Petrice, and I can explain and justify every one of those actions. Quit judging me for it.
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Post by warden on Apr 30, 2018 17:31:06 GMT
You actually feel bad when doing evil decisions? (even if it's only for achievements and then reload the save) I sometimes feel bad when making evil choices in games. It depends on several factors. Like likability and the emotion the VA puts into their voice. A classic example for me is way back in 2003 when I first played Knights of the Old Republic. It was my first playthrough and I went darkside throughout the game. But towards the end when you have to demand blind obedience from your companions. I had no problem killing/betraying some of them. But when it came to Zaalbar and Mission. I felt terrible. The emotion in Mission's voice when she begs Zaalbar not to kill her, and when my character forces him to do so. I felt bad. Then a couple of minutes later when you board the Starforge, Zaalbar seeking vengeance turns on you. And you're forced to kill him. At that moment I restarted the game and played lightside. For the record I have no problem going darkside in the sequel, and Obsidian did a better job with DS choices than BioWare. Yeah, it my seem stupid to some. But sometimes the VA does such a good job.= it's hard for me to not feel bad. But if the character is dick and begs for their life I have no problem choosing the evil option. As said in another comment, just asked for curiosity, I don't care for justifications, reasons or whatever. Anyway, interesting read and interesting information, cool that you share it.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 30, 2018 18:09:41 GMT
As it happens, allowing genuinely evil choices is almost always a good thing in a roleplaying game- it opens up more roleplaying possibilities (even if you never make those choices, I think their merely being there is still significant, the existence of an alternative means that when your character makes the morally upright/good choice, that they actually made a choice). And while DAO and DA2 both had some genuinely evil choices you could make (though the former certainly more than the latter), I think Inquisition suffered because there really weren't any such choices- at most, the Inquisitor could be amorally pragmatic, but not outright evil. You're right, it's important to have those 'evil' options even if the player never uses them. As you said by not taking the evil choice that in itself is roleplay and helping you form the mind of your charcater. Inquisition needed a little more edge in that regard. As to the other comments... What bugs me is those on the forum who always play paragon protagonists and act as if that makes them right, and the rest of us wrong. That by supporting the wolves, or Meredith, or the Templars we are deliberately being evil just for the hell of it. BioWare games are full of nuance and perspective, almost every choice can be justified by your characters previous experiences. There's hardly anything that can actually be called evil. Handing Fenris back to Danarius, killing the werewolves after the cure, allowing a child to be possessed are good examples, but siding with Gregoir or Meredith can easily be justified and even thought of as lawful good choices. I'm a wonderful person . Never hurt anyone in my life, never broke the law...but in game I've punched Solas, thrown mercs out of tall buildings, annulled the Circle twice, saved Loghain twice, sided with Meredith, supported Petrice, and I can explain and justify every one of those actions. Quit judging me for it. Lawful: perhaps. Good? No, perhaps, neutral. And perhaps naive... In the case of Meredith, even the "lawful" is questionable, because she's a criminal not only morally, but even according to the Chantry's law. But the wish to avoid the fight against Templar Carver, can justify the decision. Hawke who choose this decision can be good, the decision's at the moment, is not good. (Once I did, I felt dirty.) We all know, you're a wonderful person! Of course, nobody judging you to make these decisions. Saving Loghain is not even an evil decision – to spare someone's life isn't a sin: and in Loghain's case, it's just a chance to the redemption, a second chance – or just a postponed death sentence. To punch Solas – depends on the character's view, I don't have any desire to do it, but I can't consider it really evil – but I would like an option to punch Cullen when he speaks about Meredith. I'm not sure I would use this option, I just want it, as a possibility – or at least a hard conversation. By the way, I even heard an argument that handing back Fenris to Danarius, is an acceptable choice (the argument was: his sister deserves to be Magister because Fenris caused her bad fate, so Fenris' selfish and ungrateful to Danarius, who loves him and share his bed with him... – this isn't a joke, I read it!)...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2018 20:47:53 GMT
Lawful: perhaps. Good? No, perhaps, neutral. And perhaps naive... In the case of Meredith, even the "lawful" is questionable, because she's a criminal not only morally, but even according to the Chantry's law. But the wish to avoid the fight against Templar Carver, can justify the decision. Hawke who choose this decision can be good, the decision's at the moment, is not good. (Once I did, I felt dirty.) We all know, you're a wonderful person! Of course, nobody judging you to make these decisions. Saving Loghain is not even an evil decision – to spare someone's life isn't a sin: and in Loghain's case, it's just a chance to the redemption, a second chance – or just a postponed death sentence. To punch Solas – depends on the character's view, I don't have any desire to do it, but I can't consider it really evil – but I would like an option to punch Cullen when he speaks about Meredith. I'm not sure I would use this option, I just want it, as a possibility – or at least a hard conversation. By the way, I even heard an argument that handing back Fenris to Danarius, is an acceptable choice (the argument was: his sister deserves to be Magister because Fenris caused her bad fate, so Fenris' selfish and ungrateful to Danarius, who loves him and share his bed with him... – this isn't a joke, I read it!)... What about the bigger picture? My most lawful Hawke was mage supporting right until the end, when she reluctantly went with Meredith. She did that to try and prove that not all mages were bad, knowing that if she sided with the mages then all mages, from that point onwards, would be targets all across Thedas. If she sided with Meredith and nipped it in the bud right now, then maybe it would stop all Circles from being targeted. Kill a few mages here to save all the other mages later on. It didn't work of course, they die anyway, but she wasn't to know that. Another character, my Templar Hawke, was pro-templar from the beginning, so she didn't even talk to Anders or hear about most of the atrocities happening at the Circle. Bethany even liked it there, so she didn't understand the situation fully. Therefore for her Meredith was the obvious choice and a reasonable one at that. Seriously? That's a step too far even for me, I just couldn't do that to him.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 30, 2018 21:27:32 GMT
Lawful: perhaps. Good? No, perhaps, neutral. And perhaps naive... In the case of Meredith, even the "lawful" is questionable, because she's a criminal not only morally, but even according to the Chantry's law. But the wish to avoid the fight against Templar Carver, can justify the decision. Hawke who choose this decision can be good, the decision's at the moment, is not good. (Once I did, I felt dirty.)
We all know, you're a wonderful person! Of course, nobody judging you to make these decisions. Saving Loghain is not even an evil decision – to spare someone's life isn't a sin: and in Loghain's case, it's just a chance to the redemption, a second chance – or just a postponed death sentence. To punch Solas – depends on the character's view, I don't have any desire to do it, but I can't consider it really evil – but I would like an option to punch Cullen when he speaks about Meredith. I'm not sure I would use this option, I just want it, as a possibility – or at least a hard conversation. By the way, I even heard an argument that handing back Fenris to Danarius, is an acceptable choice (the argument was: his sister deserves to be Magister because Fenris caused her bad fate, so Fenris' selfish and ungrateful to Danarius, who loves him and share his bed with him... – this isn't a joke, I read it!)... What about the bigger picture? My most lawful Hawke was mage supporting right until the end, when she reluctantly went with Meredith. She did that to try and prove that not all mages were bad, knowing that if she sided with the mages then all mages, from that point onwards, would be targets all across Thedas. If she sided with Meredith and nipped it in the bud right now, then maybe it would stop all Circles from being targeted. Kill a few mages here to save all the other mages later on. It didn't work of course, they die anyway, but she wasn't to know that. Another character, my Templar Hawke, was pro-templar from the beginning, so she didn't even talk to Anders or hear about most of the atrocities happening at the Circle. Bethany even liked it there, so she didn't understand the situation fully. Therefore for her Meredith was the obvious choice and a reasonable one at that. Seriously? That's a step too far even for me, I just couldn't do that to him. Yes, I see your point, and I read your character concepts, these are very good, but I have my RP-limits. I also played a mage who at the end sided with her, but only for Carver. I just can't imagine playing, a character, who believe, he needs to prove he deserves to live (in fact the opposite), neither who believes, anyone (his sister!) loves to become a prisoner in Thedas cruellest prison. Even Templar Carver wrote he's happy, Bethany was not forced to live in such a place. So: I can't imagine after Anders first quest (Karl) – this is inevitable – my Hawke would able to believe, that this Circle is a safe place for Bethany or for anyone. (By the way, even if Hawke didn't know, that Bethany hates the Circle, because never spoke with her, at the end Bethany asks Hawke for the support – how can anyone betray her?) So: perhaps there's believable explanation, background-concept, I just can't see that. As an apostate, the Templars are the greatest fear. Perhaps... a Carver-kind Hawke, who blamed Malcolm and Bethany for their pariah-life... But for example, I can't imagine than Carver would able to fight against Bethany... Even he was reluctant to fight against his brother, but against Bethany? Never. And Warden Carver very angry to Hawke, if Hawke turns on his/her fellows. He still supports Hawke, but just because s/he's the family.
You never played as a rebel Hawke? An outlaw. It's fun and satisfying!
About Fenris: At first, I believed it's a joke. Then I saw, this isn't the poster really believed, that Fenris should be been grateful to Danarius for the "superpower", and he was selfish when he alone decided he will free his mother and sister because Danarius was a good master... And he proved that: in Fenris memory, he and Varania played in the courtyard – so he let them play... And: he paid well to Hawke and didn't kill Fenris, "just" took away his memory again... And Danarius really loved Fenris, because he followed him for years... sick.
But I not even let Arishok take Isabela...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2018 21:57:50 GMT
What about the bigger picture? My most lawful Hawke was mage supporting right until the end, when she reluctantly went with Meredith. She did that to try and prove that not all mages were bad, knowing that if she sided with the mages then all mages, from that point onwards, would be targets all across Thedas. If she sided with Meredith and nipped it in the bud right now, then maybe it would stop all Circles from being targeted. Kill a few mages here to save all the other mages later on. It didn't work of course, they die anyway, but she wasn't to know that. Another character, my Templar Hawke, was pro-templar from the beginning, so she didn't even talk to Anders or hear about most of the atrocities happening at the Circle. Bethany even liked it there, so she didn't understand the situation fully. Therefore for her Meredith was the obvious choice and a reasonable one at that. Seriously? That's a step too far even for me, I just couldn't do that to him. Yes, I see your point, and I read your character concepts, these are very good, but I have my RP-limits. I also played a mage who at the end sided with her, but only for Carver. I just can't imagine playing, a character, who believe, he needs to prove he deserves to live (in fact the opposite), neither who believes, anyone (his sister!) loves to become a prisoner in Thedas cruellest prison. Even Templar Carver wrote he's happy, Bethany was not forced to live in such a place. So: I can't imagine after Anders first quest (Karl) – this is inevitable – my Hawke would able to believe, that this Circle is a safe place for Bethany or for anyone. (By the way, even if Hawke didn't know, that Bethany hates the Circle, because never spoke with her, at the end Bethany asks Hawke for the support – how can anyone betray her?) So: perhaps there's believable explanation, background-concept, I just can't see that. As an apostate, the Templars are the greatest fear. Perhaps... a Carver-kind Hawke, who blamed Malcolm and Bethany for their pariah-life... But for example, I can't imagine than Carver would able to fight against Bethany... Even he was reluctant to fight against his brother, but against Bethany? Never. And Warden Carver very angry to Hawke, if Hawke turns on his/her fellows. He still supports Hawke, but just because s/he's the family.
You never played as a rebel Hawke? An outlaw. It's fun and satisfying!
About Fenris: At first, I believed it's a joke. Then I saw, this isn't the poster really believed, that Fenris should be been grateful to Danarius for the "superpower", and he was selfish when he alone decided he will free his mother and sister because Danarius was a good master... And he proved that: in Fenris memory, he and Varania played in the courtyard – so he let them play... And: he paid well to Hawke and didn't kill Fenris, "just" took away his memory again... And Danarius really loved Fenris, because he followed him for years... sick.
But I not even let Arishok take Isabela... I found ways to support the Templars and they made sense to me, but I did have to play the game a specific way to make my Hawkes believe in it. Bethany is much happier in the circle than in the Wardens though?
Oh yes, I've had a rebellious mage Hawke who romanced Anders and hated the Templars. She fully supported what Anders did and wanted to burn the whole city down.
Urgh that is sick, if you pay attention to Fenris you realise Danarius abused him. Why on earth should he be grateful for any of that?
I haven't let the Arishok take Isabela either, not after hearing Fenris tell her how the Qunari enslave their prisoners. She has just run off in Act 2 and never come back again tho. Anyway back to the thread topic...
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Post by oyabun on May 1, 2018 13:50:25 GMT
Merideth doesn't ask you to vote in a Templars vs. Mages popularity contest, she asks you to assist in killing the Circle mages for a crime they had nothing to do with. If killing people for something someone else did is not evil, then literally nothing is. Maybe you're roleplaying a Hawke that deems it a necessary evil (i.e. that the ends justify the means), but a necessary evil is still an evil, and killing people for something someone else did is pretty indisputably and unambiguously evil. --- As it happens, allowing genuinely evil choices is almost always a good thing in a roleplaying game- it opens up more roleplaying possibilities (even if you never make those choices, I think their merely being there is still significant, the existence of an alternative means that when your character makes the morally upright/good choice, that they actually made a choice). And while DAO and DA2 both had some genuinely evil choices you could make (though the former certainly more than the latter), I think Inquisition suffered because there really weren't any such choices- at most, the Inquisitor could be amorally pragmatic, but not outright evil. It's really scary the binary world view some of you are so forcefully trying to push through this thread even tough it doesn't belong to this series. None of it matters if you want to deem a lawful good path as evil just because you don't like it open the 1000th templars vs mages thread. Why it isn't evil Assisting the templars in the annulment isn't evil,the amount of demons and blood mages in Kirkwall was so high that it justify it even without Anders terrorist attack ;and I see you don't like to care to mention the Quentin/Orsino pair and their insane researches either. And if you are trying to push the notion that whoever decimate the templar order is doing good(because obviously they aren't people...) then I'm afraid you're unable to realize the limitations of your own binary interpretation of the situation.Having said that I will not talk about this here anymore.
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Post by Mark7 on May 1, 2018 14:23:49 GMT
What bugs me is those on the forum who always play paragon protagonists and act as if that makes them right, and the rest of us wrong. They aren't paragons,they think they are which is a huge difference... Ironically for all of their dislike of Meredith they reminds me exactly of her. and yes Catlina is evil, he is the kind of person that would derail every thread just to prove he is "right".
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Post by Catilina on May 1, 2018 16:31:17 GMT
Yes, I see your point, and I read your character concepts, these are very good, but I have my RP-limits. I also played a mage who at the end sided with her, but only for Carver. I just can't imagine playing, a character, who believe, he needs to prove he deserves to live (in fact the opposite), neither who believes, anyone (his sister!) loves to become a prisoner in Thedas cruellest prison. Even Templar Carver wrote he's happy, Bethany was not forced to live in such a place. So: I can't imagine after Anders first quest (Karl) – this is inevitable – my Hawke would able to believe, that this Circle is a safe place for Bethany or for anyone. (By the way, even if Hawke didn't know, that Bethany hates the Circle, because never spoke with her, at the end Bethany asks Hawke for the support – how can anyone betray her?) So: perhaps there's believable explanation, background-concept, I just can't see that. As an apostate, the Templars are the greatest fear. Perhaps... a Carver-kind Hawke, who blamed Malcolm and Bethany for their pariah-life... But for example, I can't imagine than Carver would able to fight against Bethany... Even he was reluctant to fight against his brother, but against Bethany? Never. And Warden Carver very angry to Hawke, if Hawke turns on his/her fellows. He still supports Hawke, but just because s/he's the family.
You never played as a rebel Hawke? An outlaw. It's fun and satisfying!
About Fenris: At first, I believed it's a joke. Then I saw, this isn't the poster really believed, that Fenris should be been grateful to Danarius for the "superpower", and he was selfish when he alone decided he will free his mother and sister because Danarius was a good master... And he proved that: in Fenris memory, he and Varania played in the courtyard – so he let them play... And: he paid well to Hawke and didn't kill Fenris, "just" took away his memory again... And Danarius really loved Fenris, because he followed him for years... sick.
But I not even let Arishok take Isabela... I found ways to support the Templars and they made sense to me, but I did have to play the game a specific way to make my Hawkes believe in it. Bethany is much happier in the circle than in the Wardens though?
Oh yes, I've had a rebellious mage Hawke who romanced Anders and hated the Templars. She fully supported what Anders did and wanted to burn the whole city down.
Urgh that is sick, if you pay attention to Fenris you realise Danarius abused him. Why on earth should he be grateful for any of that?
I haven't let the Arishok take Isabela either, not after hearing Fenris tell her how the Qunari enslave their prisoners. She has just run off in Act 2 and never come back again tho. Anyway back to the thread topic... Yes, I see, you found, I said, it's makes sense. And if Hawke at the end siding with the Templars, even Varric says this is good, but he questions Hawke, if "let dangerous people run amok"... true, at the epilogue seems he think, that siding with the templars, was a cruel decision... So...
About Bethany: Bethany not happy in the Circle, why would she happy? (Even Elthina said, she wouldn't live in the Circle... and Templar Carver metnioned, he's happy, Bethany never lived here...) Okay, this is a candy shop (of horror) for her with the big library and with the fellow mages – but this is a prison, with rapes, abuses. Even if she able to avoid that, she sees that. Yes, Bethany's bitter as Warden. Tainted, and this was a blind fate, and totally crushes her dream to a normal life. In the Circle she's learned, how free was she before, and at the end she's happy to fight for the freedom. I always thought, she was, who reported herself – this was her choice to protect her remained family because she felt as burden, so: she accept this fate. If Hawke supports the freedom, she's happy to fight for... if not, she remained as a smiling martyr. She wants a normal life. If Hawke supports the prison, I think, Hawke breaks her dreams. She asks for Hawke's support – why would Hawke think, she loves this life... or wants to die in the annulment? (Sorry, but I really don't see, how would be happy a Bethany-kind person –or rather anyone who lived in a better place before– locked in a place like the Gallows.)
In the last PT Hawke lost Isabela (the rivalry path not succeeded), but no way I would give her to Arishok.
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Post by Catilina on May 1, 2018 16:34:08 GMT
Merideth doesn't ask you to vote in a Templars vs. Mages popularity contest, she asks you to assist in killing the Circle mages for a crime they had nothing to do with. If killing people for something someone else did is not evil, then literally nothing is. Maybe you're roleplaying a Hawke that deems it a necessary evil (i.e. that the ends justify the means), but a necessary evil is still an evil, and killing people for something someone else did is pretty indisputably and unambiguously evil. --- As it happens, allowing genuinely evil choices is almost always a good thing in a roleplaying game- it opens up more roleplaying possibilities (even if you never make those choices, I think their merely being there is still significant, the existence of an alternative means that when your character makes the morally upright/good choice, that they actually made a choice). And while DAO and DA2 both had some genuinely evil choices you could make (though the former certainly more than the latter), I think Inquisition suffered because there really weren't any such choices- at most, the Inquisitor could be amorally pragmatic, but not outright evil. It's really scary the binary world view some of you are so forcefully trying to push through this thread even tough it doesn't belong to this series. None of it matters if you want to deem a lawful good path as evil just because you don't like it open the 1000th templars vs mages thread. Why it isn't evil Assisting the templars in the annulment isn't evil,the amount of demons and blood mages in Kirkwall was so high that it justify it even without Anders terrorist attack ;and I see you don't like to care to mention the Quentin/Orsino pair and their insane researches either. And if you are trying to push the notion that whoever decimate the templar order is doing good(because obviously they aren't people...) then I'm afraid you're unable to realize the limitations of your own binary interpretation of the situation.Having said that I will not talk about this here anymore.
You mentioned Orsino/Quentin, I mention Meredith/Alric/Karras... Who tortured more people? Quentin or Meredith/Alrik/Karras and the others? And what exactly Orsino knew about Quentin, is still vague – but Meredith supported the crimes and committed crimes in the Circle, this is clear – even according to the Chantry's law. But of course, nothing wrong with support the rape. Obviously "lawful good" decision.
But to support the mages doesn't mean to support Orsino. Again: Orsino's nothing, while Meredith, after Elthina's, the most powerful person in Kirkwall.
To crush the Templar Order is good for the templars too. The Order is corrupt, in this form the Templars are the puppets of the Chantry on lyrium leash. They would serve the good, but not in this way. We saw even in the Origins, that this way is wrong (Alistair also doesn't like the Order – because of it.)
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Post by Catilina on May 1, 2018 16:41:56 GMT
What bugs me is those on the forum who always play paragon protagonists and act as if that makes them right, and the rest of us wrong. They aren't paragons,they think they are which is a huge difference... Ironically for all of their dislike of Meredith they reminds me exactly of her. and yes Catlina is evil, he is the kind of person that would derail every thread just to prove he is "right". Thank you, I appreciate it!
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