inherit
331
0
5,819
q5tyhj
enai de a lukal
1,993
August 2016
q5tyhj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
q5tyhj
|
Post by q5tyhj on May 1, 2018 22:24:38 GMT
Merideth doesn't ask you to vote in a Templars vs. Mages popularity contest, she asks you to assist in killing the Circle mages for a crime they had nothing to do with. If killing people for something someone else did is not evil, then literally nothing is. Maybe you're roleplaying a Hawke that deems it a necessary evil (i.e. that the ends justify the means), but a necessary evil is still an evil, and killing people for something someone else did is pretty indisputably and unambiguously evil. --- As it happens, allowing genuinely evil choices is almost always a good thing in a roleplaying game- it opens up more roleplaying possibilities (even if you never make those choices, I think their merely being there is still significant, the existence of an alternative means that when your character makes the morally upright/good choice, that they actually made a choice). And while DAO and DA2 both had some genuinely evil choices you could make (though the former certainly more than the latter), I think Inquisition suffered because there really weren't any such choices- at most, the Inquisitor could be amorally pragmatic, but not outright evil. It's really scary the binary world view some of you are so forcefully trying to push through this thread even tough it doesn't belong to this series. None of it matters if you want to deem a lawful good path as evil just because you don't like it open the 1000th templars vs mages thread. Why it isn't evil Assisting the templars in the annulment isn't evil,the amount of demons and blood mages in Kirkwall was so high that it justify it even without Anders terrorist attack ;and I see you don't like to care to mention the Quentin/Orsino pair and their insane researches either. And if you are trying to push the notion that whoever decimate the templar order is doing good(because obviously they aren't people...) then I'm afraid you're unable to realize the limitations of your own binary interpretation of the situation.Having said that I will not talk about this here anymore.
Except, some actions really are binary. Maybe not as many as some like to imagine, but killing innocents is one of them, and there are certainly others (abusing children, torture, rape, slavery, etc). Many of the choices in the DA series, in Mass Effect, in other similar franchises etc are morally ambiguous. But the Merideth vs. Orsino choice is not really one of them, killing people for something they did not do is pretty indisputably and unambiguously evil. Indeed, the killing of innocents may well be the paradigmatic case of evil. Now I'm not in any way denouncing people for playing an evil character or making evil choices, that would be silly- its a video game, after all- and I enjoy playing such characters/making those evil choices myself. But there really isn't any way to credibly argue that annulling the entire Circle because of something a non-Circle mage did isn't an evil/immoral choice. And obviously the fact that there were alot of demons and blood mages in Kirkwall doesn't justify the choice as anything but evil, because you're still killing mages who weren't blood mages or summoning demons. Merideth doesn't ask for your help in killing the mages guilty of practicing blood magic, or in killing Anders, or in punishing Orsino for helping Quentin, she asks for your help killing all the mages. Including the innocent ones. And killing innocent people is evil/immoral, if anything is. If Merideth was merely asking for your help in killing the mages actually guilty of committing crimes, then I would agree, the choice is (or can be) a moral/good one. But that's not what she asks you to do.
|
|
inherit
1836
0
221
doflamingodonquijote
440
Oct 22, 2016 22:16:46 GMT
October 2016
doflamingodonquijote
|
Post by doflamingodonquijote on May 2, 2018 10:12:21 GMT
Except, some actions really are binary. Maybe not as many as some like to imagine, but killing innocents is one of them, and there are certainly others (abusing children, torture, rape, slavery, etc). Many of the choices in the DA series, in Mass Effect, in other similar franchises etc are morally ambiguous. But the Merideth vs. Orsino choice is not really one of them, killing people for something they did not do is pretty indisputably and unambiguously evil. Indeed, the killing of innocents may well be the paradigmatic case of evil. Now I'm not in any way denouncing people for playing an evil character or making evil choices, that would be silly- its a video game, after all- and I enjoy playing such characters/making those evil choices myself. But there really isn't any way to credibly argue that annulling the entire Circle because of something a non-Circle mage did isn't an evil/immoral choice. And obviously the fact that there were alot of demons and blood mages in Kirkwall doesn't justify the choice as anything but evil, because you're still killing mages who weren't blood mages or summoning demons. Merideth doesn't ask for your help in killing the mages guilty of practicing blood magic, or in killing Anders, or in punishing Orsino for helping Quentin, she asks for your help killing all the mages. Including the innocent ones. And killing innocent people is evil/immoral, if anything is. If Merideth was merely asking for your help in killing the mages actually guilty of committing crimes, then I would agree, the choice is (or can be) a moral/good one. But that's not what she asks you to do. Except this really isn't a case of a binary black and white scenario no matter how much you want it to be. Siding with Orsino the psychopath who helped in researches that resulted in womens being dismembered is right because I say so that's what your logic is. And mages innocents hardly?After all the demons they summoned there is hardly anyone inncent in DAII,so please do bother to mention how almost every mage fought in the templar route summoned a demon and therefore the numbers of blood mages is higher tha you can imagine in that circle almost 80%. I hate black and White thinkers they are so irrational and can't even understand it.Supporting The templars is not evil and That's final.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 10:24:43 GMT
Except, some actions really are binary. Maybe not as many as some like to imagine, but killing innocents is one of them, and there are certainly others (abusing children, torture, rape, slavery, etc). Many of the choices in the DA series, in Mass Effect, in other similar franchises etc are morally ambiguous. But the Merideth vs. Orsino choice is not really one of them, killing people for something they did not do is pretty indisputably and unambiguously evil. Indeed, the killing of innocents may well be the paradigmatic case of evil.
Now I'm not in any way denouncing people for playing an evil character or making evil choices, that would be silly- its a video game, after all- and I enjoy playing such characters/making those evil choices myself. But there really isn't any way to credibly argue that annulling the entire Circle because of something a non-Circle mage did isn't an evil/immoral choice. And obviously the fact that there were alot of demons and blood mages in Kirkwall doesn't justify the choice as anything but evil, because you're still killing mages who weren't blood mages or summoning demons. Merideth doesn't ask for your help in killing the mages guilty of practicing blood magic, or in killing Anders, or in punishing Orsino for helping Quentin, she asks for your help killing all the mages. Including the innocent ones. And killing innocent people is evil/immoral, if anything is. If Merideth was merely asking for your help in killing the mages actually guilty of committing crimes, then I would agree, the choice is (or can be) a moral/good one. But that's not what she asks you to do. Siding with Orsino the psychopath who helped in researches that resulted in womens being dismembered is right because I say so that's what your logic is. And mages innocents?after all the demons they summoned there is hardly anyone inncent in DAII,andp lease play he templar route an see how many summon demons almost 80% of them. I hate black and White thinkers they are so irrational and can't even understand it.Supporting The teplars is not evil and That's final. Whatever Orsino did or not, if Hawke picks the mages, Hawke protects the MAGES, not Orsino. Orsino's nothing in this relation. He doesn't have any power.
The Templars = Meredith here The Mages =/= Orsino. Orsino's just a senior prisoner.
To support Meredith's and her Templars' method willingly is evil. To support the random tranquility and rape, is evil. Meredith's circle about this. To siding with Meredith at the last moment, can be a somehow justified action. That's final.
|
|
Mark7
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 117 Likes: 125
inherit
4514
0
May 10, 2018 14:18:45 GMT
125
Mark7
117
Mar 14, 2017 18:18:55 GMT
March 2017
mark7
Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
|
Post by Mark7 on May 2, 2018 10:36:45 GMT
Merideth was merely asking for your help in killing the mages actually guilty of committing crimes, then I would agree, the choice is (or can be) a moral/good one. But that's not what she asks you to do. -Meredith is asking you to help killing the mage that helped Quentin to kill your own mother as well as oher people and that never bothered to denounce him. -Meredith is asking you to help killing all the blood mages in the circle,which we can see in the templar route are very high in numbers. -Meredith is asking you to placate the population of the Free marches that after what Anders did expected an immediate annulment of that circle or would have completely revolted. -Hawke doesn' help killing Templars who are just following their duties and orders. -Hawke is seen as an hero in the free marches because they cared more for the entire population rather than a few mages. I know is comfortable seeing those who disagree with you merely like evil monsters that pick up choices solely to roleplay evil,but I'm afraid you are wrong because many of us did in fact helped the templars thinking it was good and not to roleplay evil.
|
|
inherit
1836
0
221
doflamingodonquijote
440
Oct 22, 2016 22:16:46 GMT
October 2016
doflamingodonquijote
|
Post by doflamingodonquijote on May 2, 2018 10:56:51 GMT
Siding with Orsino the psychopath who helped in researches that resulted in womens being dismembered is right because I say so that's what your logic is. And mages innocents?after all the demons they summoned there is hardly anyone inncent in DAII,andp lease play he templar route an see how many summon demons almost 80% of them. I hate black and White thinkers they are so irrational and can't even understand it.Supporting The teplars is not evil and That's final. Whatever Orsino did or not, if Hawke picks the mages, Hawke protects the MAGES, not Orsino. Orsino's nothing in this relation. He doesn't have any power.
The Templars = Meredith here The Mages =/= Orsino. Orsino's just a senior prisoner.
To support Meredith's and her Templars' method willingly is evil. To support the random tranquility and rape, is evil. Meredith's circle about this. To siding with Meredith at the last moment, can be a somehow justified action. That's final. There is no need to use the spoiler tag since this isn't anymore a matter of talking about a DA2 event but of a very strong self righeous attitude that's just wrong and that fits this thread main theme. Orsino is the representative of the circle so his behaviour influence how the entire circle is seen to the eyes of the public. Wheter there are innocent mages in the circle is irrelevant,innocent people are everywhere,but if you are gonna consider one evil for every collateral damage then please do bother to say how your warden was evil when he heal Eamon at the cost of killing many innocents families a top of Haven,or the guards at Fort Drakon ,or those at Howe estate,and the starving families in Lothering,as well as all the hundreds of others killed during the game,all collateral damages that for some reason still make you think you're a paragon.....but Hey Hawke is evil!
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 11:30:39 GMT
Whatever Orsino did or not, if Hawke picks the mages, Hawke protects the MAGES, not Orsino. Orsino's nothing in this relation. He doesn't have any power.
The Templars = Meredith here The Mages =/= Orsino. Orsino's just a senior prisoner.
To support Meredith's and her Templars' method willingly is evil. To support the random tranquility and rape, is evil. Meredith's circle about this. To siding with Meredith at the last moment, can be a somehow justified action. That's final. No need to use the sopiler tag since this isn't anymore a matter of talking about a DA2 event but of a very strong self righeous attitude that's just wrong and that fits this thread main theme. Orsino is the representative of the circle so his behaviour influence how the entire circle is seen to the eyes of the public.
Wheter there are innocent mages in the circle is irrelevant,innocent people are everywhere,but if you are gonna consider one evil for every collateral damage then please do bother to say how your warden was evil when he heal Eamon at the cost of killing many innocents families a top of Haven,or the guards at Fort Drakon ,or those at Howe estate,and the starving families in Lothering as well as all the hundreds of others killed during the game,all collateral damages that for some reason still make you think you're a paragon. The innocent people of Haven attack the Warden when the Warden wants to investigate where is the brother. Why they attack the Warden? It's self-defence, not genocide. They aren't forced to fight by the Warden: again, they attack the Warden. Again: Orsino's not the "mages", Orsino doesn't represent anything, only this slavery. And Orsino's a good first enchanter. He fulfilled his goal: he spared many mages from the suicide and cares about his people. But even if you consider him evil (no, he's not evil), he's nothing. Not equal with Meredith (I even never understood, how people can compare them..). Orsino doesn't have any power in the Circle, in Kirkwall, while Meredith has every power. Yes. Sometimes the collateral damage's inevitable, and in a war/revolution people die. But to support Meredith = support her methods: the practice of the random rape, tranquility for keeping mages in fear. And Meredith even threatened Kirkwall's people too. Even the nobles wanted to rebel against her. To support Meredith is evil – Hawke knows her methods from many sources: s/he can experience (Karl, Samson), can hear about from random NPCs, Anders tells about, Cullen and the Grand Cleric also tells about. To siding with her, at the end for some reasons, is a cruel but somehow justifiable decision. The Templars kneel before Hawke who sided them. After, they betray Hawke... (I love this part...)
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 11:46:46 GMT
Merideth was merely asking for your help in killing the mages actually guilty of committing crimes, then I would agree, the choice is (or can be) a moral/good one. But that's not what she asks you to do. -Meredith is asking you to help killing the mage that helped Quentin to kill your own mother as well as oher people and that never bothered to denounce him. -Meredith is asking you to help killing all the blood mages in the circle,which we can see in the templar route are very high in numbers. -Meredith is asking you to placate the population of the Free marches that after what Anders did expected an immediate annulment of that circle or would have completely revolted. -Hawke doesn' help killing Templars who are just following their duties and orders. -Hawke is seen as an hero in the free marches because they cared more for the entire population rather than a few mages. I know is comfortable seeing those who disagree with you merely like evil monsters that pick up choices solely to roleplay evil,but I'm afraid you are wrong because many of us did in fact helped the templars thinking it was good and not to roleplay evil. In fact Meredith doesn't give a shit about Quentin... about Anders. Anders' act only a reason for her to kill the mages. Meredith doesn't give a shit about Kirkwall's people. She just wants to kill the mages, because she's mad. A lot. ( "She's howling at the bloody moon!" – Anders) The Templars should protect the mages, not killing them, rape them and randomly tranquilize them for keeping them in fear. The Templars in Kirkwall doesn't do their duty. Hawke earned the Champion of Kirkwall title, because s/he has eliminated a danger, what was caused by a Chantry sister and a Templar with some zealots (and, ofc, Isabela). S/He deserved that title. This is why Hawke's a hero. But this title's nothing. You remember? Meredith prevented the Viscount election. Hawke was not able to become Viscount. Hawke doesn't responsible for the city. Everyone cares about the "civilian" but everyone forgets, that the mages are civilian too. And everyone involved: every family has a chance for a mage child.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
101
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2018 16:19:55 GMT
What bugs me is those on the forum who always play paragon protagonists and act as if that makes them right, and the rest of us wrong. They aren't paragons,they think they are which is a huge difference... Ironically for all of their dislike of Meredith they reminds me exactly of her. Okay that made me giggle.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
101
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2018 16:21:42 GMT
I found ways to support the Templars and they made sense to me, but I did have to play the game a specific way to make my Hawkes believe in it. Bethany is much happier in the circle than in the Wardens though?
Oh yes, I've had a rebellious mage Hawke who romanced Anders and hated the Templars. She fully supported what Anders did and wanted to burn the whole city down.
Urgh that is sick, if you pay attention to Fenris you realise Danarius abused him. Why on earth should he be grateful for any of that?
I haven't let the Arishok take Isabela either, not after hearing Fenris tell her how the Qunari enslave their prisoners. She has just run off in Act 2 and never come back again tho. Anyway back to the thread topic... Yes, I see, you found, I said, it's makes sense. And if Hawke at the end siding with the Templars, even Varric says this is good, but he questions Hawke, if "let dangerous people run amok"... true, at the epilogue seems he think, that siding with the templars, was a cruel decision... So...
About Bethany: Bethany not happy in the Circle, why would she happy? (Even Elthina said, she wouldn't live in the Circle... and Templar Carver metnioned, he's happy, Bethany never lived here...) Okay, this is a candy shop (of horror) for her with the big library and with the fellow mages – but this is a prison, with rapes, abuses. Even if she able to avoid that, she sees that. Yes, Bethany's bitter as Warden. Tainted, and this was a blind fate, and totally crushes her dream to a normal life. In the Circle she's learned, how free was she before, and at the end she's happy to fight for the freedom. I always thought, she was, who reported herself – this was her choice to protect her remained family because she felt as burden, so: she accept this fate. If Hawke supports the freedom, she's happy to fight for... if not, she remained as a smiling martyr. She wants a normal life. If Hawke supports the prison, I think, Hawke breaks her dreams. She asks for Hawke's support – why would Hawke think, she loves this life... or wants to die in the annulment? (Sorry, but I really don't see, how would be happy a Bethany-kind person –or rather anyone who lived in a better place before– locked in a place like the Gallows.)
In the last PT Hawke lost Isabela (the rivalry path not succeeded), but no way I would give her to Arishok. You have a point there, Bethany would have been happier if she was free. She does accept her life in the Circle but yes, she would wish for freedom over that any day. I guess I always think of Bethany being happy in the Circle as a comparison to her dislike of being a Warden.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
101
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2018 16:32:48 GMT
Reading what everyone is saying highlights something that's often missed - the opinions of the regular folk of Thedas. Walk along a street in Denerim, Orzammar, Kirkwall or Val Royeaux and almost every person you meet will be fearful of magic. The only mages they will have known will have been carted off to the Circles (just like Wynne's story) and very few have the experience of mages that Hawke, the Warden or the Inquistor have had. They're in the unique position of getting to know apostates in heroic circumstances and so can learn from that, whereas most will never get that experience. To them magic is bad, end of story. Even in Par Vollen. Just look what those nasty Tevinter bastards did with it. So if you play the game from that perspective (as I did with my canon Warden) being extremely wary of magic makes sense. For her a possessed Connor = death, end of story. It broke her heart but she didn't even imagine there could be another way as that is what you always do with demons. I think most players learn their own view on magic by playing the game and being friends with Merrill or Wynne or whoever, but that is not the general state of affairs. Simply put, and as Mark7 says above, if Hawke doesn't help Meredith everyone outside the city will think he/she is a heretical monster. It's standard practice to annul Circles and that's what the ppl would expect. If you play DA2 from that stand point, as a law abiding regular old Citizen of Thedas (who perhaps was shocked by everything his/her mage father did in Legacy, and sees magic as extremely dangerous) then siding with Meredith makes sense.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 17:55:34 GMT
Reading what everyone is saying highlights something that's often missed - the opinions of the regular folk of Thedas. Walk along a street in Denerim, Orzammar, Kirkwall or Val Royeaux and almost every person you meet will be fearful of magic. The only mages they will have known will have been carted off to the Circles (just like Wynne's story) and very few have the experience of mages that Hawke, the Warden or the Inquistor have had. They're in the unique position of getting to know apostates in heroic circumstances and so can learn from that, whereas most will never get that experience. To them magic is bad, end of story. Even in Par Vollen. Just look what those nasty Tevinter bastards did with it. So if you play the game from that perspective (as I did with my canon Warden) being extremely wary of magic makes sense. For her a possessed Connor = death, end of story. It broke her heart but she didn't even imagine there could be another way as that is what you always do with demons. I think most players learn their own view on magic by playing the game and being friends with Merrill or Wynne or whoever, but that is not the general state of affairs. Simply put, and as Mark7 says above, if Hawke doesn't help Meredith everyone outside the city will think he/she is a heretical monster. It's standard practice to annul Circles and that's what the ppl would expect. If you play DA2 from that stand point, as a law abiding regular old Citizen of Thedas (who perhaps was shocked by everything his/her mage father did in Legacy, and sees magic as extremely dangerous) then siding with Meredith makes sense. Hawke with his/her background, not a regular person, this is the point. I think, Hawke can't support such a system. Hawke's whole life was about the fear – from the Templars, from a night, when a group of Templars kick the door and massacre his/her family, not from the mages. I see a pursued pariah, who can have two possibility: licks the boots his/her enemy, or secretly help to the mages to escape, as Anders in the Mage Underground. In Hawke's eyes to send to the Circle Feynriel (there a chance to send him to the dalish – why would Hawke to send him to the Circle?), Ella (she has traumatic experience in the Circle – I would never send her back to this dirty place), and the Starkhaven apostates (the surrenders are innocent, just let them go, who knows, what wait them inside after their escape – and this proved: Meredith randomly tranquilized them, keeping in fear the others...), is a sin, because Hawke knows about Karl's case and Hawke inherently hates the system, because this was what forced his/her family hiding. The first thing what Hawke learn about the Kirrkwall's Circle is, that this is a prison, and Meredith is a tyrant. And as an apostate (son/daughter of an apostate, sister/brother of an apostate), in Hawke's eyes the Circle, the persecution is unacceptable. In Bethany eyes too, if you take her everywhere she doesn't have only one good word about the Circle and the Templars. Hawke's an outlaw. S/He has only his/her own law. Hawke can't see the situation as a "normal" person, Hawke sees the unjust and much more sensitive of the abuses inside the Circle, than would been a simple commoner. A simple commoner can see the Circle as a good, safe place, but Hawke not. Hawke's position prevents to see that. And about that "if Hawke doesn't help Meredith, everyone will think, s/he's a heretical monster", is not really true. At first, because Hawke helps... in the serious cases. Hawke helps to Macha to find his Templar brother, and to Cullen to investigate the background and to catch/kill the Exotic Wonder, Tarohne – these are reall criminal mages. Hawke helps Ser Emeric to investigate the case of the missing women... okay, against Meredith... So: Hawke seemingly NOT "heretical monster" in anyone's eyes. At second, because many people in Kirkwall hates Meredith and hates her Templars. If Hawke stads against Meredith at the beginning of the Act3, many nobles support Hawke. The nobles want to rebel to. In Kirkwall the situation not that simple, many people, including the Grand Cleric, sees the cruelty. But Hawke can't support Meredith. In Hawke's eyes, Meredith and her Circle is a nightmare. Only thing I can imagine: if Hawke support Meredith, because his/her fear prevents Hawke to help the mages. But Hawke rather brave, and able to help.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 19, 2024 15:24:55 GMT
30,241
Hanako Ikezawa
22,352
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 18:38:23 GMT
The situation in Dragon Age 2 was supposed to be a morally grey issue where both sides had reasons both to support and oppose them rather than one being objectively right and the other objectively wrong. Bioware literally stated that that was what they had in mind.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 18:44:02 GMT
The situation in Dragon Age 2 was supposed to be a morally grey issue where both sides had reasons both to support and oppose them rather than one being objectively right and the other objectively wrong. Bioware literally stated that that was what they had in mind. Yes, this was the intention, but the implementation was wrong, the system is unacceptable, not grey. Anders's solution was grey. The people were "grey" (especially the qunary people...). But the system clearly wrong, not morally grey. Something just unacceptable.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 19, 2024 15:24:55 GMT
30,241
Hanako Ikezawa
22,352
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 18:47:43 GMT
The situation in Dragon Age 2 was supposed to be a morally grey issue where both sides had reasons both to support and oppose them rather than one being objectively right and the other objectively wrong. Bioware literally stated that that was what they had in mind. Yes, this was the intention, but the implementation was wrong, the system is unacceptable, not grey. Anders's solution was grey. The people were "grey" (especially the qunary people...). But the system clearly wrong, not morally grey. Something just unacceptable. I disagree that Anders' solution was grey. That was wrong and unacceptable as well.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 19:40:23 GMT
Yes, this was the intention, but the implementation was wrong, the system is unacceptable, not grey. Anders's solution was grey. The people were "grey" (especially the qunary people...). But the system clearly wrong, not morally grey. Something just unacceptable. I disagree that Anders' solution was grey. That was wrong and unacceptable as well. Yes, you disagree. And yes, Anders's guilty. But what he did, was necessary, and far in the "grey" zone – and the the injustice of the system justified him.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 19, 2024 15:24:55 GMT
30,241
Hanako Ikezawa
22,352
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 19:42:52 GMT
I disagree that Anders' solution was grey. That was wrong and unacceptable as well. Yes, you disagree. And yes, Anders's guilty. But what he did, was necessary, and far in the "grey" zone – and the the injustice of the system justified him. Disagree that it was necessary or justified. There is no objective evidence that it was.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
101
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2018 20:28:43 GMT
I disagree that Anders' solution was grey. That was wrong and unacceptable as well. Yes, you disagree. And yes, Anders's guilty. But what he did, was necessary, and far in the "grey" zone – and the the injustice of the system justified him. Blowing up a bunch of innocent ppl can never be justified, no matter the cause.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 20:48:46 GMT
Yes, you disagree. And yes, Anders's guilty. But what he did, was necessary, and far in the "grey" zone – and the the injustice of the system justified him. Blowing up a bunch of innocent ppl can never be justified, no matter the cause. It is justified by the system. The rebellion was necessary, and this was an effective way to ignite the spark. Meredith's methods aren't justified with anything. But also Meredith, as a person, not clearly "evil" she's crazy. And the system (and Elthina) let her run amok. The system responsible for her too.
|
|
inherit
331
0
5,819
q5tyhj
enai de a lukal
1,993
August 2016
q5tyhj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
q5tyhj
|
Post by q5tyhj on May 2, 2018 21:02:36 GMT
Except, some actions really are binary. Maybe not as many as some like to imagine, but killing innocents is one of them, and there are certainly others (abusing children, torture, rape, slavery, etc). Many of the choices in the DA series, in Mass Effect, in other similar franchises etc are morally ambiguous. But the Merideth vs. Orsino choice is not really one of them, killing people for something they did not do is pretty indisputably and unambiguously evil. Indeed, the killing of innocents may well be the paradigmatic case of evil. Now I'm not in any way denouncing people for playing an evil character or making evil choices, that would be silly- its a video game, after all- and I enjoy playing such characters/making those evil choices myself. But there really isn't any way to credibly argue that annulling the entire Circle because of something a non-Circle mage did isn't an evil/immoral choice. And obviously the fact that there were alot of demons and blood mages in Kirkwall doesn't justify the choice as anything but evil, because you're still killing mages who weren't blood mages or summoning demons. Merideth doesn't ask for your help in killing the mages guilty of practicing blood magic, or in killing Anders, or in punishing Orsino for helping Quentin, she asks for your help killing all the mages. Including the innocent ones. And killing innocent people is evil/immoral, if anything is. If Merideth was merely asking for your help in killing the mages actually guilty of committing crimes, then I would agree, the choice is (or can be) a moral/good one. But that's not what she asks you to do. Except this really isn't a case of a binary black and white scenario no matter how much you want it to be. Siding with Orsino the psychopath who helped in researches that resulted in womens being dismembered is right because I say so that's what your logic is. And mages innocents hardly?After all the demons they summoned there is hardly anyone inncent in DAII,so please do bother to mention how almost every mage fought in the templar route summoned a demon and therefore the numbers of blood mages is higher tha you can imagine in that circle almost 80%. I hate black and White thinkers they are so irrational and can't even understand it.Supporting The templars is not evil and That's final. This is a really epic case of "pot meet kettle", so thanks for the laugh. And if the number of mages who have actually committed crimes is less than 100%, assisting in annulling the circle involves killing innocents and is therefore unambiguously and indisputably evil.
|
|
inherit
331
0
5,819
q5tyhj
enai de a lukal
1,993
August 2016
q5tyhj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
q5tyhj
|
Post by q5tyhj on May 2, 2018 21:13:40 GMT
Merideth was merely asking for your help in killing the mages actually guilty of committing crimes, then I would agree, the choice is (or can be) a moral/good one. But that's not what she asks you to do. -Meredith is asking you to help killing the mage that helped Quentin to kill your own mother as well as oher people and that never bothered to denounce him. -Meredith is asking you to help killing all the blood mages in the circle,which we can see in the templar route are very high in numbers. -Meredith is asking you to placate the population of the Free marches that after what Anders did expected an immediate annulment of that circle or would have completely revolted. -Hawke doesn' help killing Templars who are just following their duties and orders. "Very high numbers" is not the same as "all of them", so Merideth is asking you to help kill innocents. You're fighting a hopeless battle here.
|
|
inherit
331
0
5,819
q5tyhj
enai de a lukal
1,993
August 2016
q5tyhj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
q5tyhj
|
Post by q5tyhj on May 2, 2018 21:18:09 GMT
Yes, you disagree. And yes, Anders's guilty. But what he did, was necessary, and far in the "grey" zone – and the the injustice of the system justified him. Blowing up a bunch of innocent ppl can never be justified, no matter the cause. Didn't you just say a few pages back that you think annulling the Circle can be justified as a "lawful good" choice? So blowing up innocent people can never be justified, but killing innocent people in a more mundane way (i.e. with your sword or bow or daggers or whatever) can be justified? Sort of have to pick between having your cake and eating it here- if Anders actions are unjustifiably wrong because they involved the killing of innocents, then by the same token Merideth's (and any Hawke that assists her) actions are unjustifiably wrong because they involved the killing of innocents. Can't really have it both ways. Personally, I think its pretty clear that both of their actions were evil/immoral.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
101
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2018 21:30:17 GMT
Blowing up a bunch of innocent ppl can never be justified, no matter the cause. Didn't you just say a few pages back that you think annulling the Circle can be justified as a "lawful good" choice? So blowing up innocent people can never be justified, but killing innocent people in a more mundane way (i.e. with your sword or bow or daggers or whatever) can be justified? Sort of have to pick between having your cake and eating it here- if Anders actions are unjustifiably wrong because they involved the killing of innocents, then by the same token Merideth's (and any Hawke that assists her) actions are unjustifiably wrong because they involved the killing of innocents. Can't really have it both ways. Personally, I think its pretty clear that both of their actions were evil/immoral. Oh come on they're hardly the same thing. Meredith is trying to restore order after a terrorist attack. Now if Anders had blown up Meredith that would be different, and many would say it was justified. However he went for a bunch of clergy men and women, many of whom had nothing whatsoever to do with the mages. Plus the mages in the Circle had been turning to blood magic for years, literally years, before any action was taken. Meredith was wrong, I don't support her actions, however I do see a valid, lawful reason to support the Templars in their effort to bring order to Kirkwall. I don't see a valid, lawful reason to blow up a fucking church.
|
|
inherit
331
0
5,819
q5tyhj
enai de a lukal
1,993
August 2016
q5tyhj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
q5tyhj
|
Post by q5tyhj on May 2, 2018 21:39:29 GMT
The situation in Dragon Age 2 was supposed to be a morally grey issue where both sides had reasons both to support and oppose them rather than one being objectively right and the other objectively wrong. Bioware literally stated that that was what they had in mind. I don't doubt it was supposed to be morally ambiguous, most of the major choices in both DA and Mass Effect are, and so the writers generally do a good job in that regard. But I don't think they succeeded in the Merideth vs. Orsino choice, for the reasons already adduced: killing innocents is like abusing children or raping people, its a moral deal-breaker or trump card. On the other hand, as I mentioned, I think its a good thing to allow certain choices to be morally black and white, choices that allow evil responses/actions- moral ambiguity helps makes a choice become a genuine dilemma, but it also limits the ability to roleplay characters with drastically different ethical orientations. In other words, playing an evil character is fun, and providing some opportunities to do so is usually a good thing.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 19, 2024 15:24:55 GMT
30,241
Hanako Ikezawa
22,352
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 21:40:03 GMT
Didn't you just say a few pages back that you think annulling the Circle can be justified as a "lawful good" choice? So blowing up innocent people can never be justified, but killing innocent people in a more mundane way (i.e. with your sword or bow or daggers or whatever) can be justified? Sort of have to pick between having your cake and eating it here- if Anders actions are unjustifiably wrong because they involved the killing of innocents, then by the same token Merideth's (and any Hawke that assists her) actions are unjustifiably wrong because they involved the killing of innocents. Can't really have it both ways. Personally, I think its pretty clear that both of their actions were evil/immoral. Oh come on they're hardly the same thing. Meredith is trying to restore order after a terrorist attack. Now if Anders had blown up Meredith that would be different, and many would say it was justified. However he went for a bunch of clergy men and women, many of whom had nothing whatsoever to do with the mages. Plus the mages in the Circle had been turning to blood magic for years, literally years, before any action was taken. Meredith was wrong, I don't support her actions, however I do see a valid, lawful reason to support the Templars in their effort to bring order to Kirkwall. I don't see a valid, lawful reason to blow up a fucking church. Not to mention the civilians caught up in the blast, either being in the church or hit by the debris. His actions are confirmed to have killed hundreds of people.
|
|
inherit
331
0
5,819
q5tyhj
enai de a lukal
1,993
August 2016
q5tyhj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
q5tyhj
|
Post by q5tyhj on May 2, 2018 21:45:52 GMT
Didn't you just say a few pages back that you think annulling the Circle can be justified as a "lawful good" choice? So blowing up innocent people can never be justified, but killing innocent people in a more mundane way (i.e. with your sword or bow or daggers or whatever) can be justified? Sort of have to pick between having your cake and eating it here- if Anders actions are unjustifiably wrong because they involved the killing of innocents, then by the same token Merideth's (and any Hawke that assists her) actions are unjustifiably wrong because they involved the killing of innocents. Can't really have it both ways. Personally, I think its pretty clear that both of their actions were evil/immoral. Oh come on they're hardly the same thing. Meredith is trying to restore order after a terrorist attack. Now if Anders had blown up Meredith that would be different, and many would say it was justified. However he went for a bunch of clergy men and women, many of whom had nothing whatsoever to do with the mages. Plus the mages in the Circle had been turning to blood magic for years, literally years, before any action was taken. Meredith was wrong, I don't support her actions, however I do see a valid, lawful reason to support the Templars in their effort to bring order to Kirkwall. I don't see a valid, lawful reason to blow up a fucking church. Well, actually, they look like exactly the same thing, from a moral point of view. Anders killed innocents. Merideth wants to kill innocents. Merideth wants to restore order after a terrorist attack, which is a worthy goal, but she still wants to accomplish that goal by killing innocents, whereas Anders was also trying to accomplish a worthy goal (ending mistreatment/injustice towards mages) by killing innocents. There literally doesn't appear to be a single salient difference. And so, have the cake vs. eat the cake?
|
|