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Post by rras1994 on May 22, 2018 11:54:20 GMT
An important point is that these Youtubers aren't about consumer interests either, they are trying to make as much money as well. Ask a Game Dev doesn't make any money from their tumblr posts, if anything they are opening themselves up to negativity and abuse. The Youtubers behind these click-bait videos are doing it for money, it's why they are called click bait. What is "negativity and abuse"? Daring to question a narrative?And sure, I mentioned myself that they have ulterior motives (which are very clear), but other motives aside, they are giving voice to consumer advocacy, whether that's their main motive or not. oh C'mon, there's no point in pretending that there isn't a serious problem in the gamer community of harassing devs for anything they percieve as wrong. Any dev that makes comments at this point is opening themselves to recieving abusive messages and that's the least serious thing that could happen.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 23, 2018 3:08:14 GMT
I'm not really disputing that there's a click-bait industry around this issue, all I'm saying is that enough of this is warranted (IMO) to make me more sympathetic towards that narrative than towards the guy you quoted. Though, YongYea and his ilk really need to step up their game if they want to stay relevant and/or be taken seriously. AskAGameDev is fairly neutral in most of their posts and just tries to explain reasoning behind things. No, I have to agree with Laughing Man here. AskAGameDev is decidedly biased towards game devs, which is totally fair. They are representing for their tribe. Nothing wrong with that, particularly since unlike so-called consumer advocates, most game devs can't voice what they really think, because they'd lose their jobs -- and not just because they might criticize their corporate masters. It's more likely they'd criticize idiotic armchair devs and customers with ridiculous expectations that can never be met, and then it's the dev's fault for being lazy, etc. I was going to take Laughing Man to task for giving the clickbaiters trying to pass for consumer advocates a pass, but he won some points back with the YongYea and his ilk dig. Still, I have to question the whole idea that the sins of the individuals can be overlooked for the greater good of advocacy in sum. I'd chuck 100 YongYea's out the window for one fair-minded, equal-time giving, full story researching, and most of all, non-monetized (Patreon would be fine) YT video game consumer advocate that really did care about advocacy. Like Healthcare Triage does for healthcare, and the guy is a doctor. That's the model I'd like to see for video games. The perfect video game consumer advocate would be someone who was in the industry for a good number of years, and left without a weight of bitterness and an axe to grind. All that said, I do recommend Tarmack. He's pretty good about 66% of the time, clickbaity and /r/games circlejerky the rest of the time, which, while not perfect, is a far cry better than most. And he does decent game reviews, too. His review of Frostpunk was excellent.
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Post by Sanunes on May 23, 2018 4:12:12 GMT
AskAGameDev is fairly neutral in most of their posts and just tries to explain reasoning behind things. No, I have to agree with Laughing Man here. AskAGameDev is decidedly biased towards game devs, which is totally fair. They are representing for their tribe. Nothing wrong with that, particularly since unlike so-called consumer advocates, most game devs can't voice what they really think, because they'd lose their jobs -- and not just because they might criticize their corporate masters. It's more likely they'd criticize idiotic armchair devs and customers with ridiculous expectations that can never be met, and then it's the dev's fault for being lazy, etc. I was going to take Laughing Man to task for giving the clickbaiters trying to pass for consumer advocates a pass, but he won some points back with the YongYea and his ilk dig. Still, I have to question the whole idea that the sins of the individuals can be overlooked for the greater good of advocacy in sum. I'd chuck 100 YongYea's out the window for one fair-minded, equal-time giving, full story researching, and most of all, non-monetized (Patreon would be fine) YT video game consumer advocate that really did care about advocacy. Like Healthcare Triage does for healthcare, and the guy is a doctor. That's the model I'd like to see for video games. The perfect video game consumer advocate would be someone who was in the industry for a good number of years, and left without a weight of bitterness and an axe to grind. All that said, I do recommend Tarmack. He's pretty good about 66% of the time, clickbaity and /r/games circlejerky the rest of the time, which, while not perfect, is a far cry better than most. And he does decent game reviews, too. His review of Frostpunk was excellent. I never meant to imply that AAGD isn't going to align more to the viewpoint of developers, but I don't think a lot of people on YouTube are really aligned with consumers that don't think like them either. I got tired of the accusations that those creators kept throwing at developers all the time non-stop, I understand when something big happens like what EA did with Battlefront 2. I was really disappointed that other issues seem to be glossed over that I think are important too, but because it seems its not EA they don't cover it for one reason or another. I used to follow Tarmac and I agree he seems to be more neutral the majority most of the time and I appreciated it. The problem I have is as far as I could tell he never admitted to making a logic mistake and if you are going to make accusations against publishers or developers I think it is required to be upfront when you make a mistake. The issue I had was with the "Video games are not too expensive to make" video he did where there was a logic error when he made the assumption that the same number of video games are being produced and that isn't happening. Now he might have addressed it later after I unsubscribed, but I never heard anyone saying he did.
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Post by Sanunes on May 23, 2018 14:48:07 GMT
The issue I had was with the "Video games are not too expensive to make" video he did where there was a logic error when he made the assumption that the same number of video games are being produced and that isn't happening. Could you explain what you meant here? I'm curious about the claim and the issue you had with it. I am not sure if you saw Tarmac's video, but in it he used one of EA's statements to show that video games cost less to make then they have in the past. The problem is he just used the same figure for how much EA was spending per year in develop games. The thing is he failed to account for that EA is only making a third of the games per year that they did five or so years ago. So if EA was spending 900 million to make 30 games they were spending 30 million per game. Now they make only 10, but spending 850 million total games they are spending 85 million per game. Its over simplified, but that is what was missing from his math. As per usual AAGD broke it down further because they were asked about it and went deeper into other things here.
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Post by smilesja on May 23, 2018 15:51:09 GMT
It doesn’t matter, no matter what they say it’ll be scrutinized.
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Post by Zubi on May 23, 2018 18:32:13 GMT
I'm personally divided between the idea of ignoring this game because I want nothing to do with EA's new policies or buying it just to make sure they don't close Bioware if it fails.
Very sad, but the idea of not getting more Dragon Age or Mass Effect in the future is scary.
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Post by Sanunes on May 23, 2018 19:28:42 GMT
I'm personally divided between the idea of ignoring this game because I want nothing to do with EA's new policies or buying it just to make sure they don't close Bioware if it fails. Very sad, but the idea of not getting more Dragon Age or Mass Effect in the future is scary. I don't know of any new policies that EA has that other major publishers are developers don't share. There is nothing to indicate BioWare will close, plenty of people seem to be able to know how EA feels about prior releases without any real internal information.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 24, 2018 0:11:07 GMT
The issue I had was with the "Video games are not too expensive to make" video he did where there was a logic error when he made the assumption that the same number of video games are being produced and that isn't happening. Now he might have addressed it later after I unsubscribed, but I never heard anyone saying he did. No, he’s sticking to his flawed analysis and has referred to it in later videos. That was my first introduction to his channel and would have written him off, but like I said, 66% of his other stuff is pretty good. Better to know someone’s blind spots than not, I guess.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 24, 2018 2:51:17 GMT
Actually, digs at the fandom in general or at "armchair developers" are quite common. Let's keep things in perspective. What does "quite common" mean, in the context of fans outnumbering devs, what, a million to one? When compared to the number of times just the single insult "lazy devs" is tossed around by fans? That one insult is so common, it's a meme. And then multiply by all the other insults fans throw around, and it's not looking like a fair fight. Should devs be held to a higher standard? Should fans? Let's use math to illustrate the point. Let's say the total universe of devs is exactly 100. And every single one of those devs insults fans every day. Now let's say the total universe of fans is 100 million, but only 1 million of those fans say anything insulting about devs every day. By that reckoning, 100% of devs insult fans daily. That seems quite common, right? Only 10% of fans insult devs every day, which sounds, well, rare, or at least, uncommon. And yet, it would be pretty silly of me to go around claiming that fans insulting devs is "uncommon." Even though the math says that's right. By the same token, "quite common" kind of loses its significance, when considered in this perspective. Sometimes absolute volume matters more than relative frequency. The first and last parts are true. You don't throw more blood in the water when the sharks are in a frenzy. It's not a matter of being unprofessional, it's lack of trust, in both directions. Devs have a legitimate fear that any self-criticism can be turned against them by the mob, and not just in social media, but as class-action lawsuits or boycotts or other actions that can hurt the business. And since fans don't believe what devs say, even when they say the truth, why should devs take the risk? Fans want more transparency from devs? Then STFU and stop with the frivolous legal actions, death threats, and the like. (Legit legal action, of course, is fine.) All that said, Extra Credits is one shining light of self-examination in the sea of self-imposed gag orders. I can't think of a single channel that makes it's clickbait money by muckraking fans. And speaking of lack of self-examination ... where are the fans coming forward and apologizing for flying off the handle over trivialities, unsubstantiated rumors (even when proven categorically false), and sheer bloody-mindedness? Look, I'm not saying devs, or game studios or distributors are all saints and above reproach. I'm just saying that they don't have a monopoly on bad behavior. Raging fans have a lot to answer for too.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 25, 2018 3:34:45 GMT
You are making a false equivalence here, the position of a "fan" and the position of a "dev" couldn't be any more different. In the realm of social media, they're the same. One voice per person. Or did I misunderstand when you said devs digging at fans was quite common? I thought you meant from their personal social media accounts, or indeed under the guise of anonymity like AskADev, not as official spokespeople for the companies they work for. I can't recall ever hearing of a dig at fans as an official statement. Well, not as intentional dig at fans. I've heard there are things that have been interpreted as insults. We're pretty far apart on this one. I can't find the references that would help me explain why I disagree with this. I'll just say this: friends keep friends in line. Until there's a bankable upside to looking better, that's going to continue. Here's one: Man Sues Bethesda Because Fallout 4 Is Too Addictive.A 28 year-old Russian man is suing Bethesda Softworks and its localization studio for what he claims is a life-ruining experience with Fallout 4. In the three weeks after release, he claims he was so addicted to the game that he managed to lose both his wife and his job.Here's another: Gamer Wins Lawsuit in Chinese Court Over Stolen Virtual WinningsThe Beijing Chaoyang District People's Court ordered the maker of the game "Hongyue" -- also known as "Red Moon" -- to return game winnings, including virtual biochemical weapons, to Li Hongchen, who protested after the items were stolen by a hacker in February.There's also a bunch of questions on Quora and Avvo from gamers who want to sue game companies for hilarious reasons. These might just be trolling for grins, but even if 1 out of 100 is serious, it's suggestive of how these trivial lawsuits happen: www.quora.com/Can-I-sue-a-game-company-for-making-a-game-that-scares-mewww.quora.com/Could-I-file-a-lawsuit-against-the-gaming-company-Blizzard-for-a-bug-that-causes-you-to-not-receive-the-promised-score-points-in-a-game-caused-by-the-company%E2%80%99s-recent-updatewww.quora.com/I-was-online-playing-a-game-that-I-paid-for-and-a-moderator-appeared-and-abused-his-power-When-he-left-I-expressed-relief-that-he-was-gone-and-was-later-banned-from-the-game-Could-I-sue-a-game-creatorwww.quora.com/Are-players-entitled-to-sue-the-game-company-if-they-are-permanently-banned-from-the-multiplayer-gamewww.avvo.com/legal-answers/can-i-sue-a-video-game-for-using-the-red-cross-sym-3572787.htmlBTW, while collecting these, I found a whole lot more examples of sports fans suing various sports teams and stadiums for trivial reasons. These gamer suits are a drop in the bucket compared to serious sports fans.
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