Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on May 20, 2018 18:15:23 GMT
Here speaking in terms of Destiny-like Raids, dungeons designed to be the ultimate challenge of the experience requiring cooperation and communication between-say 6-8-players to complete, and providing exclusive gear drops.
I know I enjoyed some of the Destiny raids like Vault of Glass and Wrath of the Machine, so I would be interested in seeing something similar.
I know a lot of people here hate the idea of anything being impossible to complete solo, but what if there was a solo mode but with less change to get the exclusive loot (Say there are three reward drops instead of six for the group mode), so you can still get all the loot.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 20, 2018 19:15:58 GMT
As long as they are completely optional, or have very minimal and easily worked-around impact to grind progression, I'm fine with them.
Where it becomes a problem for me is when the best gear or side quest or map is locked behind a Raid, and there's no non-Raid alternative way to get them.
I am okay with Achievements/Trophies being locked by Raids, though. Just don't lock actual content behind a Raid.
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Post by Sartoz on May 20, 2018 19:23:40 GMT
As long as they are completely optional, or have very minimal and easily worked-around impact to grind progression, I'm fine with them. Where it becomes a problem for me is when the best gear or side quest or map is locked behind a Raid, and there's no non-Raid alternative way to get them. I am okay with Achievements/Trophies being locked by Raids, though. Just don't lock actual content behind a Raid.
Agreed.
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Heimdall
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∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on May 20, 2018 19:36:20 GMT
As long as they are completely optional, or have very minimal and easily worked-around impact to grind progression, I'm fine with them. Where it becomes a problem for me is when the best gear or side quest or map is locked behind a Raid, and there's no non-Raid alternative way to get them. I am okay with Achievements/Trophies being locked by Raids, though. Just don't lock actual content behind a Raid. Well, there are mostly ways to get gear of equivalent strength in Destiny, if not the exact gear itself, without doing Raids. There is an exotic weapon (unique with special effects) that requires doing the raid to acquire as part of its exotic quest. It isn’t the best weapon, in fact I find it isn’t better than some non-exotic equivalents, but there isn’t another way to acquire it.
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Post by SofaJockey on May 20, 2018 20:03:19 GMT
I'll admit I haven't fully got my head around what a raid is.
Is it like a MEMP platinum where only the insane or very gud would attempt it solo?
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Post by Heimdall on May 20, 2018 20:20:29 GMT
I'll admit I haven't fully got my head around what a raid is. Is it like a MEMP platinum where only the insane or very gud would attempt it solo? Well, in Destiny, no. It is mechanically impossible to complete a Raid solo usually. For example, the Leviathan Raid that shipped with Destiny 2 contains a section called the Gauntlet. In this section, one of the players gets teleported outside the arena and has to run through an obstacle course of sorts. This player must call out the symbols they see so their teammates can shoot the corresponding symbols in the arena, thus opening the gates for the first player so they can complete the course and advance the round. Though instances like that have been criticized by Destiny fans as being too coordination intensive (there are actually additional complications I haven’t described) but similar “puzzle” mechanics require multiple players to make advancement in the Raid possible. Another example might be Atheon, Time’s Conflux, final boss of the original Raid, Vault of Glass, whose boss battle involves two players being teleported to a separate location where they must retrieve a relic. The remaining four players must then open a gateway so they can return. The relic is then used to shield the player’s from damage and give them a buff that let’s them damage the boss for a limited period. Repeat this process three times. The relic is also used to cure a debuff automatically inflicted on players during the battle that causes their screens to darken and gradually become opaque.
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Post by rras1994 on May 20, 2018 20:24:10 GMT
I'll admit I haven't fully got my head around what a raid is. Is it like a MEMP platinum where only the insane or very gud would attempt it solo? I only know about MMO raids (though considering Destiny is called MMO lite, I'm assuming they are similar?) but they are built for about a group of 8 people with different disciplines (you need a couple tanks, couple of healers, and the rest DPS usually) and it's a series of boss fights with different mechanics that gets progressively harder. It's not a solo activity and I'm not sure you could make it a solo activity as they bosses are balanced round having a group with different specs.
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Post by Sanunes on May 20, 2018 21:38:04 GMT
In some ways having another level of content that is challenging would be nice, but BioWare is not known for making tough games.
The problem I see with raids is they could be something that blows up in BioWare's face and on a personal level I rather just have more dungeons that everyone can experience instead of having artificial lockouts that prevent people from doing content together. If they do go down the route of raiding I just hope they don't take Bungie's approach and alienate players by how they don't have a looking for group approach.
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Post by Pearl on May 20, 2018 22:02:30 GMT
I'll admit I haven't fully got my head around what a raid is. Is it like a MEMP platinum where only the insane or very gud would attempt it solo? No. Generally speaking, a raid is a bespoke activity with unique mechanics and bosses, designed to be tackled by a large team of coordinated players - although what qualifies as "large" depends on the game in question, on one end you have Destiny where raids are 6-player activities while in a dedicated MMO like WoW you can have upwards of 30 (or more) players. Raids can be thought of like traditional linear levels in games, where the goal is to go from point A to point B and complete every encounter along the way. Your ability to complete the raid is entirely dependent on how well your team understands the various mechanics in each section, and their ability to execute said mechanics. In the context of Anthem, I think that Destiny's raids are the most apt comparison since they're both multi-platform, meaning every part of the game will have to be designed with console limitations in mind (not just weak hardware, other things like controller limitations, simplified UI, differences in expectations, etc). In fact, I can point you towards this GameInformer article from August 2016 where one of the lead raid designers from Bungie was interviewed about the process they went through in designing the final raid released for D1. A competent team can expect to complete any of Destiny's raids in about an hour and change, which to me seems like a reasonable time commitment for what is intended to be the ultimate end-game activity. Good teams will probably come in around the 30-45min mark, and exceptional teams will be in the 15-25min range depending on the complexity of the raid in question (as each one will have a different number of bosses to be killed or non-boss objectives to be completed).
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Post by SofaJockey on May 20, 2018 22:14:09 GMT
Got it thanks...
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Post by Pearl on May 20, 2018 22:20:55 GMT
Well, in Destiny, no. It is mechanically impossible to complete a Raid solo usually. I'll tack on to this and add that in a well-designed Destiny raid, it should be impossible for a player to solo an entire raid from start to finish, but it may still be possible to complete a specific encounter solo. Granted, with the exception of Crota's End, this is an extreme edge case, but you don't have to go very far on YouTube to find people who have soloed Atheon, Oryx, or Aksis.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 20, 2018 22:49:07 GMT
If it's something that isn't a shitty puzzle, like Leviathan, then I'm game.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on May 20, 2018 22:57:25 GMT
Have we heard anything to suggest that you can have more than 4 players? I thought that was the max.
Regardless i hope all content can be completed by two players (like how you can complete swtor 4p flash points with just two players as long as your careful because you each have your companion), as if i get this thats the way i'll be playing.
It seems likely that different difficulty modes will be involved since they've been saying it's 1-4 players.
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Post by Sifr on May 21, 2018 0:44:34 GMT
It is mechanically impossible to complete a Raid solo usually. Challenge Accepted!
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Post by KaiserShep on May 21, 2018 2:54:36 GMT
It is mechanically impossible to complete a Raid solo usually. Challenge Accepted! Man, I wish it were possible to do that anymore. Far as I can remember, only Crota was able to be solo'd, and that may have been only pre-Age of Triumph (maybe). All the other raids had some kind of mechanic that required a fireteam to do certain actions simultaneously, and sometimes with a timer.
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Post by goishen on May 21, 2018 3:01:45 GMT
I'm hoping that it doesn't have raids. And if it does, it had better get onboard with the modding community and make nice with it; hell, it had better buy it a nice steak & lobster dinner, and plaster it with wine.
'Cause that was one thing that killed SW:TOR. None, or very little modding. And when they did come, they came too late. Simple things like damage meters, threat meters, healing meters, etc. So you can tell who is slacking off in a raid.
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Post by biggydx on May 21, 2018 18:01:36 GMT
If the game is going to be centered around loot, then people should be prepared that certain items will be exclusive to certain activities. While their should obviously be items of equal (near equal) power outside of Raids, I don't believe you should be able to get Raid specific items without doing the raid. If we're looking at it from a Destiny 2 perspective, it had Clan Engrams that significantly minimized the necessity of the raid. Essentially, if someone in your clan completed the raid, than once per week, per account, you could get a clan engram with a raid weapon inside it. You didn't even need to participate in the Raid, which made the Raid even less significant.
As we want to look at it from a gameplay perspective, it'll be interesting to see how Bioware will handle it. Considering that you can fly in this game, that presents opportunities to utilize the vertical landscape to a much greater extent than any MMO or Destiny has done.
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Post by Kedan on May 21, 2018 18:29:26 GMT
Raids are garbage for the community, no matter what you do. If you don't have them, then people whine that you have no end game. If you do have them, then you explicitly split your community into the 'hardcore' and 'casual' haves and have-nots. Eventually, you'll end up balancing increasing portions of the game around the skill and gear power of the haves, who will whine that everything is too easy, making things less and less accessible to the have-nots, driving them away from the game. And if you do somehow manage to come up with a way for non-raiders to achieve a similar level of power, be it through an investment of time or difficult single player/small group content, the raiders will whine about it. Heck, raiders whine if you even provide a way for non-raiders to see a watered down version of the content (I refer you to Warcrafts's ongoing whinefest about LFR raids as an example). I have yet to find an mmo(like) developer who doesn't eventually succumb to the problems created by raiding, and none of them have mitigated those issues particularly successfully.
And I say all that as someone who raided current content in WoW from Vanilla through Pandaria, and in Destiny from Vault of Glass through the initial Leviathan. Raid communities always devolve into entitled "we work harder, so we deserve the game to be made for us" garbage piles.
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Post by Wulfram on May 21, 2018 21:52:11 GMT
I don't like raids and am unlikely to play them. If there's challenging content, I'd rather face it alone or in a small group.
If they exist, I don't really care about the gear or missing out on it. Just don't lead me on with single player story and then leave me unable to get the climax without doing a raid.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 22, 2018 1:35:58 GMT
If the game is going to be centered around loot, then people should be prepared that certain items will be exclusive to certain activities. While their should obviously be items of equal (near equal) power outside of Raids, I don't believe you should be able to get Raid specific items without doing the raid. While I would be fine with a system like that, let me play devil's advocate to illustrate how complex this problem can get if PvP is introduced. Everything as fine as long as everything in PvE, but as soon as PvP is a possibility and there aren't separate gear progressions for PvE vs. PvP, "separate but equal" for Raid vs. non-Raid gear won't work. From the point of view of the Raiders, they arguably put more skill and effort into obtaining their gear. That should, by their lights, give them a competitive edge in PvP. While, on the other hand, the non-Raiders, particularly if through some limitation beyond their control -- like a bad internet connection because they live in the outskirts of nowhere -- cry foul because they can't compete on a level playing field. With PvP, someone is going to feel cheated. And, I'm hoping, for emergent gameplay. Hell on the devs trying to balance everything, but fun for us.
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Post by Pounce de León on May 22, 2018 10:11:29 GMT
Not against it, but I mostly pug and that kinda excludes "organised" gameplay. Usually you have to do something particular to advance or there's different game mechanics and that would just get me yelled at.
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Post by rras1994 on May 22, 2018 10:23:59 GMT
If the game is going to be centered around loot, then people should be prepared that certain items will be exclusive to certain activities. While their should obviously be items of equal (near equal) power outside of Raids, I don't believe you should be able to get Raid specific items without doing the raid. While I would be fine with a system like that, let me play devil's advocate to illustrate how complex this problem can get if PvP is introduced. Everything as fine as long as everything in PvE, but as soon as PvP is a possibility and there aren't separate gear progressions for PvE vs. PvP, "separate but equal" for Raid vs. non-Raid gear won't work. From the point of view of the Raiders, they arguably put more skill and effort into obtaining their gear. That should, by their lights, give them a competitive edge in PvP. While, on the other hand, the non-Raiders, particularly if through some limitation beyond their control -- like a bad internet connection because they live in the outskirts of nowhere -- cry foul because they can't compete on a level playing field. With PvP, someone is going to feel cheated. And, I'm hoping, for emergent gameplay. Hell on the devs trying to balance everything, but fun for us. Even ignoring PvP, having the gearing system designed in such a way that only the best players can obtain the best gear after already doing the hardest content in game is a system that doesn't practically work that well for anyone (other then giving a pschological boast to said raiders, but that can be obtained via exclusive cosmetic items just as well). If you are that good a player, you don't actually need the gear and can make the raid content less fun to do, whereas if you aren't as good you logically might need that extra boast the gear provides. It actually ends up pushing people out of content as it causes a high barrier for newcomers to get into the content (there's alot of raiders that have required gear lvl to raid with them). Also, means that non-raiders are pushed out from having a goal to work towards (i.e getting the best gear) which can stop them from playing. The only people that benefit from the system are hardcore raiders and even then, overall I don't think they benefit as Raids need a group of players playing them, and this method prevents newbs from trying raids, which would decrease the raiding population overtime.
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Post by PillarBiter on May 22, 2018 11:52:48 GMT
As long as it's possible to solo finish it in some way (that isn't 10x more difficult than multi), I'm fine with raids.
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Post by rras1994 on May 22, 2018 11:57:07 GMT
As long as it's possible to solo finish it in some way (that isn't 10x more difficult than multi), I'm fine with raids. Raids aren't solo activity. They are inherently multiplayer.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 22, 2018 15:52:27 GMT
As long as it's possible to solo finish it in some way (that isn't 10x more difficult than multi), I'm fine with raids. Other than mandating a full squad to complete objectives, anything like a raid is probably going to have lots more adds than a normal mission, and probably no where to really hide to recover.
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