giubba
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Origin: Giubba
PSN: Giubba1985
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Post by giubba on May 22, 2018 16:01:00 GMT
imho raids must be the maximum level of difficulty for PVE content. They must have a serious series of prerequisites (ie Know your class,know your boss mechanics etc.) for the players for succeding but also provide a great time offering cool mechanics for bosses,nice dungeons and backstory.
What i think they cannot be anymore (and basically every devs from blizzard to square enix do nowadays in their MMO) is being exclusive. <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 1.6799999999999997px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 5px; top: 22px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_49827863" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="1.6799999999999997"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 1.68px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1128px; top: 22px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_896783" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="1.6799999999999997"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 1.68px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 5px; top: 53px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_36662256" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="1.6799999999999997"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 1.68px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1128px; top: 53px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_21904002" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="1.6799999999999997"></iframe> Raid must be hard but they shouldn't have any in game prerequisite that cut off a segment of your players. The only kind of requisite must come from the players and its knowledge of the game and game mechanics.
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Post by sgtreed24 on May 22, 2018 16:09:21 GMT
Anything that requires multiple players is a no go for me. You either have to have a ton of friends that play the game (and play when you do) or deal with a bunch of incompetent randoms that cause you to fail or miss out on any possible story that's happening (think those group missions, flashpoints I think?, in swtor).
I want single player missions that give loot just as good as the raid or group missions as I don't like relying on anyone's skill other than my own in a game and don't want my rewards and/or lack thereof to be determined by others.
But then again, this type of game isn't being made for me so lol
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Post by Sartoz on May 22, 2018 16:37:54 GMT
Anything that requires multiple players is a no go for me. You either have to have a ton of friends that play the game (and play when you do) or deal with a bunch of incompetent randoms that cause you to fail or miss out on any possible story that's happening (think those group missions, flashpoints I think?, in swtor). I want single player missions that give loot just as good as the raid or group missions as I don't like relying on anyone's skill other than my own in a game and don't want my rewards and/or lack thereof to be determined by others. But then again, this type of game isn't being made for me so lol
That's my sticking point with Anthem and "play with friends". I hope that E3 Play will clarify this.
As to rewards, my gut tells me that MP combat will give better ones than playing solo. Still, I don't give a crap about that if solo rewards allow a solo player to progress in the game.
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Post by biggydx on May 22, 2018 18:41:32 GMT
While I would be fine with a system like that, let me play devil's advocate to illustrate how complex this problem can get if PvP is introduced. Everything as fine as long as everything in PvE, but as soon as PvP is a possibility and there aren't separate gear progressions for PvE vs. PvP, "separate but equal" for Raid vs. non-Raid gear won't work. From the point of view of the Raiders, they arguably put more skill and effort into obtaining their gear. That should, by their lights, give them a competitive edge in PvP. While, on the other hand, the non-Raiders, particularly if through some limitation beyond their control -- like a bad internet connection because they live in the outskirts of nowhere -- cry foul because they can't compete on a level playing field. With PvP, someone is going to feel cheated. Skilled at PvE yes, but that doesn't translate into PvP. Someone who enters the PvP landscape with that line of thinking has got a screw loose, and even high-end gear can only get you so far against a skilled group of players. I know you're only playing Devils Advocate here. On a progression front, other games (Like Destiny) sometimes have weapons and armor that are specifically geared towards a PvP environment. As an example, there's an exotic Warlock armor piece in Destiny 2 called the Sanguine Alchemy that allows the user to mark targets at a distance while standing in their rift. While this obviously has no benefit in PvE, in PvP this has a huge advantage in terms of situational advantage, as you can essentially see enemies through walls. Another way for PvP players to feel like they have endgame gear to grind for is to have rankings; with better gear being accessible the higher your rank. Raids and other high-end PvE events should not be the only means of obtaining gear that would make someone competitive. I personally would like to see the game released without PvP. It's not that I have a grudge towards it, or that I'd care that much about it being in the game, but having PvP presents a lot of problems when you have a Loot-based RPG. Generally, the way in which you would balance random gear is to normalize the stats on all your currently equipped items, and then disable any unique abilities on them. Both World of Warcraft and The Division have done this. Ultimately, it takes the identity away from said piece of gear. Having PvP also, in noticeable ways, limits the variety of abilities and effects you can have in the game. Going back to Destiny again, in Destiny 1 there was an exotic weapon called Thorn. Though it started out mediocre, once it got a range and stability buff, the weapon could easily shut people down due to its DoT effects. Essentially, two shots from the gun would guarantee death to whoever was shot. DoT effects can be a huge problem in PvP because of how easily it forces someone to disengage from a fight, which frustrates people in PvP. Even Brenon Holmes (Anthems Technical Design Director) mentioned how hard of an issue it was to balance. Brenon Holmes on reddit: www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/7cdgj6/dev_talk/Sorry if I went on a long tangent there. I think the best possible solution for Anthems PvP is to only allow certain weapons in the environment.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on May 22, 2018 20:20:03 GMT
Curious. Not interested per se, but curious. The only MMO I ever played was DAI :/ Having to actually coordinate with people to achieve a gameplaying goal, could be fun or could be a total nightmare. With my ME3MP friends that I have made over the years, it would be a blast probably. PuG in this scenario has some interest to me... But I will suck at first, and we all know how patient 1337 gamerz can be with scrubs
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giubba
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Origin: Giubba
PSN: Giubba1985
Posts: 543 Likes: 554
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Post by giubba on May 22, 2018 20:33:57 GMT
Anything that requires multiple players is a no go for me. You either have to have a ton of friends that play the game (and play when you do) or deal with a bunch of incompetent randoms that cause you to fail or miss out on any possible story that's happening (think those group missions, flashpoints I think?, in swtor). I want single player missions that give loot just as good as the raid or group missions as I don't like relying on anyone's skill other than my own in a game and don't want my rewards and/or lack thereof to be determined by others. But then again, this type of game isn't being made for me so lol Curious. Not interested per se, but curious. The only MMO I ever played was DAI :/ Having to actually coordinate with people to achieve a gameplaying goal, could be fun or could be a total nightmare. With my ME3MP friends that I have made over the years, it would be a blast probably. PuG in this scenario has some interest to me... But I will suck at first, and we all know how patient 1337 gamerz can be with scrubs Ok i'm seeing people that have 0 to little experience with MMOs. Let's put to rest the myth of the noobs player that ruin the dungeon run or whatever.
In my many years of mmo player this particular scenario it's far from being a common or recurring situation, it does happen but it's not the bloody plague that some people think it is or try to sell.
Second nowadays successful MMOs are all largely pugs friendly, the MMO that doesn't launch with a dungeon finder for every type of group content is basically half doomed because all the big competitors on the market have it (one of the many failing of destiny)
Third the number of people for facing the hardest type of encounter (raids and the like) in the years it grew smaller and smaller from the 40 people of molten core to the 8 people needed for clearing the hardest content of Final fantasy 14.
So keep calm and don't start licking your lamp post before winter
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Post by SofaJockey on May 22, 2018 21:31:46 GMT
Not against it, but I mostly pug and that kinda excludes "organised" gameplay. Usually you have to do something particular to advance or there's different game mechanics and that would just get me yelled at. Pugging is fine so long as it's pretty clear what the team is trying to achieve.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 23, 2018 2:38:47 GMT
I think the best possible solution for Anthems PvP is to only allow certain weapons in the environment. Agreed. A completely separate progression would be ideal-- to your point, the skill sets don't necessarily translate, so why compromise? Well, apart from the devs having to create two completely different games for the price of one ... So, limited weapons separately balanced works for me.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 23, 2018 2:48:07 GMT
Having to actually coordinate with people to achieve a gameplaying goal, could be fun or could be a total nightmare. From first-hand experience -- squad-based FPS anyway -- it can be glorious. It approaches, if not exceeds, the feeling of playing competitive team sports IRL. But there is a huge requirement: you need a squad of like-minded, disciplined, mature players in your squad, or forget it. It won't necessarily be a nightmare, more a series of frustrating disappointments when your squadmates forget that there is no I in team. And what makes a good team isn't necessarily a bunch of leet shooters with sub-10ms pings. Communication and sticking to your assigned role, even when tempted by a quick kill for pure glory, is what makes the difference. It's not even close. A disciplined, communicative squad will run circles around a bunch of glory-hog assholes that never call out contact or snipers or anything.
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Post by PillarBiter on May 23, 2018 6:35:53 GMT
As long as it's possible to solo finish it in some way (that isn't 10x more difficult than multi), I'm fine with raids. Raids aren't solo activity. They are inherently multiplayer. Depends on your definition.
The question is: How do you feel about raids? My answer (more elaborate this time, for emphasis and political correctness): I'm not fine with raids such as they are in Destiny. I am fine with them, if they are reworked so that they can be completed solo (and yes, maybe it's not technically anymore then what people call 'raid' from destiny). Maybe a computer AI buddy can complete the tasks a human player should fulfill in it's place. Maybe the puzzels are partly changed if you solo. Whatever. As long as it's possible.
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Post by Pounce de León on May 23, 2018 8:43:14 GMT
I don't get why people would dislike MP content in a MP game. There is a difference between pug bots and coordinated teams doing a bit of advanced brain activity to complete a challenge. Why would you downgrade that to solo content? There is the reward thing some might feel locked out from but that is a bit of a different problem.
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Post by rras1994 on May 23, 2018 9:35:38 GMT
Raids aren't solo activity. They are inherently multiplayer. Depends on your definition.
The question is: How do you feel about raids? My answer (more elaborate this time, for emphasis and political correctness): I'm not fine with raids such as they are in Destiny. I am fine with them, if they are reworked so that they can be completed solo (and yes, maybe it's not technically anymore then what people call 'raid' from destiny). Maybe a computer AI buddy can complete the tasks a human player should fulfill in it's place. Maybe the puzzels are partly changed if you solo. Whatever. As long as it's possible.
And my point is that is not a raid but a new bit of content - a raid is content built around a team of different disciplines working together to complete (and that's not the Destiny definition, raids are from before Destiny), by definition it's not soloable. There's not really much point making a raid soloable, cus at that point it's no longer the same content, it actually can't be. Basicallly, you don't want raids which is fine. I am not personally keen on them cus most raiding communites tend to veer on the elitist side. But if you make a raid not multiplayer, it's not actually a raid anymore, so basically you are asking for a raid and then solo content also produced using the same assets. Because the mechanics of raids are designed around a group and not just a group, but a group of different skills (usually tank, healer and DPS). You'd have to completetly throw out those mechanics to make it soloable, which makes it not the same content anymore.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 23, 2018 20:38:47 GMT
Raids aren't solo activity. They are inherently multiplayer. Depends on your definition.
The question is: How do you feel about raids? My answer (more elaborate this time, for emphasis and political correctness): I'm not fine with raids such as they are in Destiny. I am fine with them, if they are reworked so that they can be completed solo (and yes, maybe it's not technically anymore then what people call 'raid' from destiny). Maybe a computer AI buddy can complete the tasks a human player should fulfill in it's place. Maybe the puzzels are partly changed if you solo. Whatever. As long as it's possible.
Not all of the Destiny raids were actually bad. Crota's End, Vault of Glass and Wrath of the Machine were actually pretty fun, and didn't have such a slim margin of error that making just one tiny mistake would always require a total wipe, rinse repeat. Being able to solo a raid is usually due to someone exploiting some sort of loophole in the mechanic, like in D1 if someone used the Warlock self-res to muscle their way through a boss. But the problem is that if the raid is designed where you CAN do them solo, they become too easy with a full team. You either make it so that it requires some cooperation and a superior damage-dealing setup, or you just make it a "strike" kind of mission where you can just go it alone if you prefer. For me, the important thing is that if the game includes something like a raid, that it isn't essential for the core narrative of the game. To keep Destiny as an example, you don't miss anything other than some mission-specific loot if you skip them. The main baddies of the actual campaign can all be dealt with solo (there's Oryx but that never really made much sense since you basically beat him twice). If there's some antagonist of Anthem, beating it probably wouldn't be locked behind a raid either.
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Post by dirtrider00 on May 23, 2018 20:47:14 GMT
As a 4 year Destiny player I'm kinda like "Hell NO!" One of the main draws to Anthem is its based on a 1-4 player format I believe. No way am I getting sucked into endgame content being locked behind a Raid that's designed for a six man+ team again. Unless you like using lfg sites and running with randoms, its just too hard too get 6 friends on regularly with our realworld lives.
Sidenotes: Destiny 2's Raid gear isn't any better than anything else available at the Tower and mine sits in my inventory.
Not scientific but my Destiny 2 trophy list shows that less than 19% of the player base on PS4 has even finished the base Raid.
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giubba
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Origin: Giubba
PSN: Giubba1985
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Post by giubba on May 23, 2018 20:57:54 GMT
Depends on your definition.
The question is: How do you feel about raids? My answer (more elaborate this time, for emphasis and political correctness): I'm not fine with raids such as they are in Destiny. I am fine with them, if they are reworked so that they can be completed solo (and yes, maybe it's not technically anymore then what people call 'raid' from destiny). Maybe a computer AI buddy can complete the tasks a human player should fulfill in it's place. Maybe the puzzels are partly changed if you solo. Whatever. As long as it's possible.
Not all of the Destiny raids were actually bad. Crota's End, Vault of Glass and Wrath of the Machine were actually pretty fun, and didn't have such a slim margin of error that making just one tiny mistake would always require a total wipe, rinse repeat. Being able to solo a raid is usually due to someone exploiting some sort of loophole in the mechanic, like in D1 if someone used the Warlock self-res to muscle their way through a boss. But the problem is that if the raid is designed where you CAN do them solo, they become too easy with a full team. You either make it so that it requires some cooperation and a superior damage-dealing setup, or you just make it a "strike" kind of mission where you can just go it alone if you prefer. For me, the important thing is that if the game includes something like a raid, that it isn't essential for the core narrative of the game. To keep Destiny as an example, you don't miss anything other than some mission-specific loot if you skip them. The main baddies of the actual campaign can all be dealt with solo (there's Oryx but that never really made much sense since you basically beat him twice). If there's some antagonist of Anthem, beating it probably wouldn't be locked behind a raid either. Exactly usually the lore/story of a raid is a complete detached line from the main campaign if it has it at all. It's becoming more and more popular do a "normal version" of the raid which have an actual storyline so anyone can enjoy the story and than doing the same content tuned up for harder difficulties without the problem of cutting people off from stuff. As a 4 year Destiny player I'm kinda like "Hell NO!" One of the main draws to Anthem is its based on a 1-4 player format I believe. No way am I getting sucked into endgame content being locked behind a Raid that's designed for a six man+ team again. Unless you like using lfg sites and running with randoms, its just too hard too get 6 friends on regularly with our realworld lives. Sidenotes: Destiny 2's Raid gear isn't any better than anything else available at the Tower and mine sits in my inventory. Not scientific but my Destiny 2 trophy list shows that less than 19% of the player base on PS4 has even finished the base Raid. That % is pretty much consistent with all the data i saw regarding the completion ratio of harder pve content
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Post by KaiserShep on May 23, 2018 21:09:55 GMT
As a 4 year Destiny player I'm kinda like "Hell NO!" One of the main draws to Anthem is its based on a 1-4 player format I believe. No way am I getting sucked into endgame content being locked behind a Raid that's designed for a six man+ team again. Unless you like using lfg sites and running with randoms, its just too hard too get 6 friends on regularly with our realworld lives. Sidenotes: Destiny 2's Raid gear isn't any better than anything else available at the Tower and mine sits in my inventory. Not scientific but my Destiny 2 trophy list shows that less than 19% of the player base on PS4 has even finished the base Raid. Yeah, the D2 raid is just not much fun. If you're not dealing damage fast enough everyone will constantly have to wipe and run through the same shitty puzzle arena over and over. I can't tell you how much I hate the baths sequence. As for gear, yeah it's pretty disappointing. Like, where the heck are the exotics? If there was something as good as the mythoclast, I'd find my way to a group willing to finish. I got the Conspirator in a clan engram, and it's not bad, but pretty meh compared to regular legendary weapons I've gotten. The fact that they failed to really nail the loot in a game where that's pretty much the reason you do anything is pretty poor. I'll never take that gun to the Crucible, when I have a MIDA and Uriel's Gift to do things better.
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Post by PillarBiter on May 24, 2018 6:47:28 GMT
Completely something else from the topic, but since we're talking about destiny, I really hope there's something fusion-rifle like in anthem. I love that weapon class. The Dr. No rifle + the fusion rifle that completely empties it's full magazine was the ultimate setup for me.
Sorry for off topic.
Now on-topic: All depends on how anthem will define it's 'raid' mechanic. In monster hunter world, For the kulve taroth raid you still have teams of 4 which are in the same party, but the actions of the other 4-man teams affect your game as well (to limited extent). It's a mechanic that seems weird at first, but seems to work. If anthem has a raid mechanic where your 4-man team does the quest, and there is an over-arching server statistic as well, that might work. I vaguely seem to recall something like that from PSO2. There were exclusive timed boss events, where your party attacked the boss, and the more times the boss was killed on the server, I think the easier it got or the better loot drops you got (can't remember exactly).
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