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Post by goishen on Jun 11, 2018 15:12:12 GMT
There's no doubt that the only creativity on display at this year's E3 is gonna have to come from the indie market. Everything's a sequel.
I've already known this for years and years. Doesn't mean that AAA developers can't come out with good games, it's simply that it'll be just like the game you playing before.
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Post by river82 on Jun 11, 2018 15:12:43 GMT
The Indie Bubble is bursting, and they're rushing to the bottom making cheaper and cheaper games until ... That being said the brilliant thing about indie games is they're made with a budget of a few thousand. Sure most don't make their money back but the risks are lower which enables more risk to be taken. And it's here you'll find a lot of the innovative stuff ... along with a lot of rubbish Indie games are not made with a budget of a few thousand, that wouldn't pay for one devs salary for a month, what the heck are you on about? Are you just talking about people making games for free? That's not an industry, that's a hobby. Erm, a lot of times Indies won't employ artists but will contract art instead, per piece. If you float around certain forums you can find artists advertising. Some devs go to Asian countries and Eastern European countries, contract some nice art at below wage rates There's numerous ways ...
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 11, 2018 15:19:59 GMT
We do seem to be drifting off topic rather, don't we. In the interests of 'free speech' I'll anchor the thread not close it. But can we please not turn this into a cross-examination of John Bain's history, he's no longer with us so perhaps we can let that matter rest also.
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Post by linksocarina on Jun 11, 2018 15:32:29 GMT
Some things are more foolish than others. Especially when gamers are the reason we are at a stagnation point since the industry to a point tries to cater to less creativity. Want creativity? Check out Her Story on Steam. Check out Va-11 Hall-A on Steam. Games that are received positively by gamers and are creative and bold because they don't need to appease millions and millions of people, just a few thousands. It's not gamers behind stagnation, it's the AAA business model. And this is precisely what I mean by the gaming community being done with the gaming media. When all you guys do is blame us, time for us to move on. Her Story was ok but I must admit I was not impressed by it, the narrative fell apart and I was not a fan of Seifert's acting. It was also creative insofar as it did a mini revival of FMV in bite-sized form that worked without the FMV baggage. Yet a lot of the press loved it as well so I am not sure why you use that as an example here. Va-11 Hall-A I never played so I can't comment on its quality, only that I have heard of it and our reviewer who did play it gave it a 9.5. Again, an average score of 7.7 via critics is good, so I am not sure why you imply that gaming media hates these games. As far as the community, part of the problem is selectiveness of that. The Witness I really liked for example due to its sort of pretentiousness on perception and reality, but a lot of folks hated it not due to gameplay or narrative, but due to the developer specifically. I also am reminded of Gone Home as another example of something less conventional that got positive press for a while but still gets the "walking simulator" cries as a mark against it. Fair enough I guess but we can debate if it had a better narrative experience than Her Story if we wish too as well, which is kind of the point of smaller indie games to emphasize either a gameplay mechanic or a narrative focus to stand out. Gone Home stood out in how it emphasized atmosphere, it also stood out because it was one of the first out of the gate. Games like FireWatch have done it better since then. All of this is subjective, but to your bigger point, a lot of these smaller games that do deserve credit get it by reviewers. It's just that no one is buying them because its niche or has little gameplay or whatever reason you want to throw at it. That is not a problem with gaming media though, so I am a bit confused as to why you frame it as such.
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Post by river82 on Jun 11, 2018 15:43:24 GMT
Want creativity? Check out Her Story on Steam. Check out Va-11 Hall-A on Steam. Games that are received positively by gamers and are creative and bold because they don't need to appease millions and millions of people, just a few thousands. It's not gamers behind stagnation, it's the AAA business model. And this is precisely what I mean by the gaming community being done with the gaming media. When all you guys do is blame us, time for us to move on. Her Story was ok but I must admit I was not impressed by it, the narrative fell apart and I was not a fan of Seifert's acting. It was also creative insofar as it did a mini revival of FMV in bite-sized form that worked without the FMV baggage. Yet a lot of the press loved it as well so I am not sure why you use that as an example here. Va-11 Hall-A I never played so I can't comment on its quality, only that I have heard of it and our reviewer who did play it gave it a 9.5. Again, an average score of 7.7 via critics is good, so I am not sure why you imply that gaming media hates these games. As far as the community, part of the problem is selectiveness of that. The Witness I really liked for example due to its sort of pretentiousness on perception and reality, but a lot of folks hated it not due to gameplay or narrative, but due to the developer specifically. I also am reminded of Gone Home as another example of something less conventional that got positive press for a while but still gets the "walking simulator" cries as a mark against it. Fair enough I guess but we can debate if it had a better narrative experience than Her Story if we wish too as well, which is kind of the point of smaller indie games to emphasize either a gameplay mechanic or a narrative focus to stand out. Gone Home stood out in how it emphasized atmosphere, it also stood out because it was one of the first out of the gate. Games like FireWatch have done it better since then. All of this is subjective, but to your bigger point, a lot of these smaller games that do deserve credit get it by reviewers. It's just that no one is buying them because its niche or has little gameplay or whatever reason you want to throw at it. That is not a problem with gaming media though, so I am a bit confused as to why you frame it as such. I blamed the gaming media for painting gamers as the bad guy for AAA stagnation. Which is what you did in the post above. I said gamers aren't the cause of gaming stagnation, the AAA business model is, and if you want creativity you need to go Indie which gamers happily embrace. Her Story sold 8000, Gone Home sold over 10000, Va-11 Halla made a profit. SpiderWeb studios have been staying alive for over 20 years solely on word of mouth.
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PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Jun 11, 2018 15:56:01 GMT
Her Story was ok but I must admit I was not impressed by it, the narrative fell apart and I was not a fan of Seifert's acting. It was also creative insofar as it did a mini revival of FMV in bite-sized form that worked without the FMV baggage. Yet a lot of the press loved it as well so I am not sure why you use that as an example here. Va-11 Hall-A I never played so I can't comment on its quality, only that I have heard of it and our reviewer who did play it gave it a 9.5. Again, an average score of 7.7 via critics is good, so I am not sure why you imply that gaming media hates these games. As far as the community, part of the problem is selectiveness of that. The Witness I really liked for example due to its sort of pretentiousness on perception and reality, but a lot of folks hated it not due to gameplay or narrative, but due to the developer specifically. I also am reminded of Gone Home as another example of something less conventional that got positive press for a while but still gets the "walking simulator" cries as a mark against it. Fair enough I guess but we can debate if it had a better narrative experience than Her Story if we wish too as well, which is kind of the point of smaller indie games to emphasize either a gameplay mechanic or a narrative focus to stand out. Gone Home stood out in how it emphasized atmosphere, it also stood out because it was one of the first out of the gate. Games like FireWatch have done it better since then. All of this is subjective, but to your bigger point, a lot of these smaller games that do deserve credit get it by reviewers. It's just that no one is buying them because its niche or has little gameplay or whatever reason you want to throw at it. That is not a problem with gaming media though, so I am a bit confused as to why you frame it as such. I blamed the gaming media for painting gamers as the bad guy for AAA stagnation. Which is what you did in the post above. I said gamers aren't the cause of gaming stagnation, the AAA business model is, and if you want creativity you need to go Indie which gamers happily embrace. Her Story sold 8000, Gone Home sold over 10000, Va-11 Halla made a profit. SpiderWeb studios have been staying alive for over 20 years solely on word of mouth. That's a no true scotsman argument, as the AAA culture is giving what gamers want. That is the principal tenant of consumerism to cater to their audience, and if you follow economic theory and philosophy, you find that consumerism as a principle practice has long standing criticism by economists due to poor buying habits by the consumer. Whether that is true or not is of course debatable, personally I think it depends because even when we focus on quality of product as is but gets lost due to outside factors influencing personal opinion. But is that really a companies fault for giving the majority what they want? It is why Call of Duty and GTA have millions of players, it's a blue-collar type of game that anyone can pick up and play, and be a part of our culture even if they aren't. It also is safe money because of trends and brand recognition, style and theme, all of that stuff. Arguing that real gamers don't want that business model when the entire industry is predicated on it because of demand by both hardcore and casual fans, then victim-blaming gaming media for that when the murder weapon is in the hands of the community is frankly disingenuous. Like it or not, the community reaps what it sows in terms of practice, taste and yes, toxicity.
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Post by river82 on Jun 11, 2018 16:03:46 GMT
I blamed the gaming media for painting gamers as the bad guy for AAA stagnation. Which is what you did in the post above. I said gamers aren't the cause of gaming stagnation, the AAA business model is, and if you want creativity you need to go Indie which gamers happily embrace. Her Story sold 8000, Gone Home sold over 10000, Va-11 Halla made a profit. SpiderWeb studios have been staying alive for over 20 years solely on word of mouth. That's a no true scotsman argument, as the AAA culture is giving what gamers want. That is the principal tenant of consumerism to cater to their audience, and if you follow economic theory and philosophy, you find that consumerism as a principle practice has long standing criticism by economists due to poor buying habits by the consumer. Whether that is true or not is of course debatable, personally I think it depends because even when we focus on quality of product as is but gets lost due to outside factors influencing personal opinion. But is that really a companies fault for giving the majority what they want? It is why Call of Duty and GTA have millions of players, it's a blue-collar type of game that anyone can pick up and play, and be a part of our culture even if they aren't. It also is safe money because of trends and brand recognition, style and theme, all of that stuff. Arguing that real gamers don't want that business model when the entire industry is predicated on it because of demand by both hardcore and casual fans, then victim-blaming gaming media for that when the murder weapon is in the hands of the community is frankly disingenuous. AAA studios aim to give 15 million consumers what they want because they want to rake in a lot of dough. There is no need to aim for that many customers. If you aim for that many customers then you automatically need to make your game more appealing to a larger group and that leads to safer, generic, inoffensive games. The problem isn't catering to an audience, but trying to cater to the largest possible audience. It's this chasing of the largest possible audience that is the problem and the reason it's the AAA business model that's driving stagnation. There is no evidence the entire industry demands these games. The industry wants games that appeal to them, it's the industry's choice to take all those demands and squish them into one all appealing product instead of separating them into 4 or 5. You guys painting the gamers as the bad guys for business models of the companies in question is what is disingenuous.
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PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Jun 11, 2018 16:38:54 GMT
That's a no true scotsman argument, as the AAA culture is giving what gamers want. That is the principal tenant of consumerism to cater to their audience, and if you follow economic theory and philosophy, you find that consumerism as a principle practice has long standing criticism by economists due to poor buying habits by the consumer. Whether that is true or not is of course debatable, personally I think it depends because even when we focus on quality of product as is but gets lost due to outside factors influencing personal opinion. But is that really a companies fault for giving the majority what they want? It is why Call of Duty and GTA have millions of players, it's a blue-collar type of game that anyone can pick up and play, and be a part of our culture even if they aren't. It also is safe money because of trends and brand recognition, style and theme, all of that stuff. Arguing that real gamers don't want that business model when the entire industry is predicated on it because of demand by both hardcore and casual fans, then victim-blaming gaming media for that when the murder weapon is in the hands of the community is frankly disingenuous. AAA studios aim to give 15 million consumers what they want because they want to rake in a lot of dough. There is no need to aim for that many customers. If you aim for that many customers then you automatically need to make your game more appealing to a larger group and that leads to safer, generic, inoffensive games. The problem isn't catering to an audience, but trying to cater to the largest possible audience. It's this chasing of the largest possible audience that is the problem and the reason it's the AAA business model that's driving stagnation. There is no evidence the entire industry demands these games. The industry wants games that appeal to them, it's the industry's choice to take all those demands and squish them into one all appealing product instead of separating them into 4 or 5. You guys painting the gamers as the bad guys for business models of the companies in question is what is disingenuous. I can't really continue this now as I have to get ready for the conference marathon of the day for E3, but my problem with your argument here is presumption on a lot of things, like companies being bad on purpose and that 15 million consumers is a bad thing for some reason. Short version is simple: since the beginning of time the point was to make money with games. It is a commercial art that way, and expected. Poor behaviors have been lambasted before so that is nothing new, and that is mostly journalists and consumers taking it to task like any medium. What you are arguing though, that companies pushing a business model that caters to everyone is bad...is what the gaming industry has been doing for 30 plus years so they can make money. Again...this is not an us vs them thing. You are talking about fellow gamers in a disparaging way, and then you wonder why I find your argument disingenuous over companies who cater to your peers. Honestly, just play in your niche as you see fit. But don't try to blame gaming media or gaming companies for being corrupt or stagnant. It's a bed the gaming community made. The question now is finding quality and innovation with that stagnation in both indie and AAA markets. You know, the part that no one wants to hear that maybe a Call of Duty game is actually good or something.
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Post by helios969 on Jun 11, 2018 19:01:57 GMT
Wow, there are a$$holes on the internet (twitter, whatever). Who'd a thunk it.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jun 14, 2018 2:38:23 GMT
But don't try to blame gaming media or gaming companies for being corrupt or stagnant. It's a bed the gaming community made. This is a load of hooey. Your apologist level is off the charts, staggering really.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Aug 6, 2018 1:09:51 GMT
Okay, you want go here again? about the corruption and dishonesty of gaming journalism? Fine, we'll go here again.
Oh wait, let me guess. None of this is valid, because it comes from Hate Shilling Youtubers, and after all, it's the Youtuber's fault for everything, never mind all the blatant proof and hard evidence they often present of the blatant intellectual dishonesty and lack of ethics, while the so called Professionals can only mud sling, censor and pretend nothing is happening in response. I am so sick of this garbage, I am tired this industry and it's so called journalists hard on for painting the paying customers as the villain, and the actual game media people who actually try to provide actual news, getting constantly lambasted as Hate Pushers who are uninformed. Well in the words of Jim Sterling, if we are uninformed it's because YOUR NOT BLOODY INFORMING US! This entire industry operates with as much cloak and dagger as it can legally get away with on a constant basis, then has the gall to actually get offended, when a so called amateur is actually able to uncover something informative (which happens to be right most of the time, btw.) You actually wonder why people are so angry? why no one trusts the so called professionals? Well you're either lying to yourself, or your head is buried so far in the sand you don't want to see it. The fact you have the gall, to act as if this is our fault? Hilarious. The same idiotic nonsense that started GamerGate to begin with. You hate Youtubers because they actually report fucking news, instead of just whining about misogyny and how horrible and toxic gamers are because we dared to call so called journalists out on their obvious lies and biases. Youtubers make the so called professionals look bad, because they don't actually do anything, they just sit around in a circle jerk pushing a one sided, biased agenda about nonsense because they are sad, pathetic people with a tiny bit of power and want to ruin the lives of anyone who dares to question them. The proof is apparent for everyone to see. The same crap that started Gamergate is still happening today, with all these so called professionals using their little GameJournosPro Mailing List to coordinate attacks on Gamers to constantly make US look like the problem, because they'll do anything to avoid the gaze of authority be turned upon them, to expose them for the selfish frauds they are. You have the gall to say Baine was unethical, and irresponsible? When he was one of the few Journalists to actually recognize the blatantly corrupt practices of his more "legitimate" comrades? He was the top Curator on Steam, and for good reason. He talked about games, and advocated for consumers. He kinda went off the deep end a bit after the election and such, but for years he was top quality. But maybe that's really why everyone really hated Baine. he didn't blow smoke up anyone's ass, he actually defended the consumers, and seems to be a big no no with the "pro" journalists. No, much easier to just constantly proclaim Gamers are toxic and horrible, and how video games are sexist despite actual feminists proclaiming the contrary. Of course they can't have that, we can't have an actual woman defending the misogynist gamers, shes clearly just diluted, subconsciously affected by the patriarchy. They've been huffing on the smell of their own s*** for so long now they wouldn't know how to untangle themselves from their self created mess if they even wanted to, aside from doing the one thing they would never do. Own up to their own crap and be an adult and take responsibility.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Aug 6, 2018 12:01:16 GMT
But don't try to blame gaming media or gaming companies for being corrupt or stagnant. It's a bed the gaming community made. This is a load of hooey. Your apologist level is off the charts, staggering really. It's honestly not even surprising anymore, given everything that has happend in this industry the last few years.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Aug 7, 2018 4:54:17 GMT
That's a no true scotsman argument, as the AAA culture is giving what gamers want. That is the principal tenant of consumerism to cater to their audience, and if you follow economic theory and philosophy, you find that consumerism as a principle practice has long standing criticism by economists due to poor buying habits by the consumer. Whether that is true or not is of course debatable, personally I think it depends because even when we focus on quality of product as is but gets lost due to outside factors influencing personal opinion. But is that really a companies fault for giving the majority what they want? It is why Call of Duty and GTA have millions of players, it's a blue-collar type of game that anyone can pick up and play, and be a part of our culture even if they aren't. It also is safe money because of trends and brand recognition, style and theme, all of that stuff. Arguing that real gamers don't want that business model when the entire industry is predicated on it because of demand by both hardcore and casual fans, then victim-blaming gaming media for that when the murder weapon is in the hands of the community is frankly disingenuous. AAA studios aim to give 15 million consumers what they want because they want to rake in a lot of dough. There is no need to aim for that many customers. If you aim for that many customers then you automatically need to make your game more appealing to a larger group and that leads to safer, generic, inoffensive games. The problem isn't catering to an audience, but trying to cater to the largest possible audience. It's this chasing of the largest possible audience that is the problem and the reason it's the AAA business model that's driving stagnation. There is no evidence the entire industry demands these games. The industry wants games that appeal to them, it's the industry's choice to take all those demands and squish them into one all appealing product instead of separating them into 4 or 5. You guys painting the gamers as the bad guys for business models of the companies in question is what is disingenuous. Indeed, these companies can easily turn a profit on more narrowly focused games, with more time for innovation and more detailed production. Games that don't try to be everything to everyone still turn a profit. But of course, simply turning a profit isn't good enough. The mere idea of "We're successfully making money" simply isn't good enough. No, they have to make ALL OF THE MONEY IN THE ENTIRE WORLD with every single release, or else the game is a total failure. This is an industry that would rather make nothing, instead of something if it can't have everything. That is why so many promising games get abandoned. That is why Andromeda got abandoned. Andromeda turned a profit, but that is of course not good enough. They didn't squeeze every penny out of it humanly possible, so the project is a failure and we're moving on, leaving it unfinished.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 23, 2018 23:41:42 GMT
But don't try to blame gaming media or gaming companies for being corrupt or stagnant. It's a bed the gaming community made. This is a load of hooey. Your apologist level is off the charts, staggering really. Eh I think there’s blame on both sides now and days.
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