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Post by slimgrin727 on May 27, 2018 3:56:50 GMT
He was a youtube game critic and commentator. One of the most influential. The thing I've pointed out is people like him help bridge the gap between gaming culture and the mainstream. You have a much kinder view of Bains place in the grand scheme of things than I do. To me he is just another face in a sea of angry culture critics. Other than his push for consumer advocacy he had little to distinguish him from the rest. I don't know, maybe I'm just getting jaded at this point. What sea of angry culture critics are you talking about? I can vouch that youtubers give far better reviews than Gamespot or IGN. And TB was one of the few who did a PC port report. Something no other main stream game reviewers did.
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Post by linksocarina on May 27, 2018 4:08:14 GMT
You have a much kinder view of Bains place in the grand scheme of things than I do. To me he is just another face in a sea of angry culture critics. Other than his push for consumer advocacy he had little to distinguish him from the rest. I don't know, maybe I'm just getting jaded at this point. What sea of angry culture critics are you talking about? I can vouch that youtubers give far better reviews than Gamespot or IGN. And TB was one of the few who did a PC port report. Something no other main stream game reviewers did. Yeah no, they do not for the most part. Most youtube folks are the worst form of enthusiastic press. Filler streams, poorly argued conspiracy videos, poor comedy skits and shtick going all the way back to the nerd from a decade ago. You also get folks imitating crap like red letter media and collider video with the roundtable punditry. These are the Joe vargas es and Yong yeas of the world basically. I only watch about a dozen folks online for video game critiques anymore, and most of it is critical retrospectives and historical information at this point, and maybe a few let's plays for pleasure here and there. So yeah, not really impressed.
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Post by slimgrin727 on May 27, 2018 4:25:56 GMT
What sea of angry culture critics are you talking about? I can vouch that youtubers give far better reviews than Gamespot or IGN. And TB was one of the few who did a PC port report. Something no other main stream game reviewers did. Yeah no, they do not for the most part. Most youtube folks are the worst form of enthusiastic press. Filler streams, poorly argued conspiracy videos, poor comedy skits and shtick going all the way back to the nerd from a decade ago. You also get folks imitating crap like red letter media and collider video with the roundtable punditry. These are the Joe vargas es and Yong yeas of the world basically. I only watch about a dozen folks online for video game critiques anymore, and most of it is critical retrospectives and historical information at this point, and maybe a few let's plays for pleasure here and there. So yeah, not really impressed. Then watch some ACG reviews. Even Angry Joe puts the mainstream reviewers to shame because he's more thorough.
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Post by linksocarina on May 27, 2018 4:35:05 GMT
Yeah no, they do not for the most part. Most youtube folks are the worst form of enthusiastic press. Filler streams, poorly argued conspiracy videos, poor comedy skits and shtick going all the way back to the nerd from a decade ago. You also get folks imitating crap like red letter media and collider video with the roundtable punditry. These are the Joe vargas es and Yong yeas of the world basically. I only watch about a dozen folks online for video game critiques anymore, and most of it is critical retrospectives and historical information at this point, and maybe a few let's plays for pleasure here and there. So yeah, not really impressed. Then watch some ACG reviews. Even Angry Joe puts the mainstream reviewers to shame because he's more thorough. I worked with Joe back in the Blistered Thumbs days. Trust me, he is not that thorough. Hardworking, sure, but that's about it. ACG...hes ok but not better than most professionals. His problem is the same thing many of my peers and even I have sometimes, there is no rigor in the writing. It's mostly book-report style of what i've seen of his vs actually being a critic. That is the bane to a good review.
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Post by BamBam the Destroyer on May 27, 2018 4:54:12 GMT
Now think to yourself: Does this look like a person you should take seriously?
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Post by slimgrin727 on May 27, 2018 4:55:27 GMT
Then watch some ACG reviews. Even Angry Joe puts the mainstream reviewers to shame because he's more thorough. I worked with Joe back in the Blistered Thumbs days. Trust me, he is not that thorough. Hardworking, sure, but that's about it. ACG...hes ok but not better than most professionals. His problem is the same thing many of my peers and even I have sometimes, there is no rigor in the writing. It's mostly book-report style of what i've seen of his vs actually being a critic. That is the bane to a good review. I've read hundreds of reviews. The professionals don't do it any better than the so called amateurs on youtube and random sites. They just don't. Most frequently they offer condensed and superficial reviews that almost ALWAYS don't take the PC platform into consideration. They are hacks, plain and simple.
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Post by linksocarina on May 27, 2018 5:01:59 GMT
I worked with Joe back in the Blistered Thumbs days. Trust me, he is not that thorough. Hardworking, sure, but that's about it. ACG...hes ok but not better than most professionals. His problem is the same thing many of my peers and even I have sometimes, there is no rigor in the writing. It's mostly book-report style of what i've seen of his vs actually being a critic. That is the bane to a good review. I've read hundreds of reviews. The professionals don't do it any better than the so called amateurs on youtube and random sites. They just don't. Most frequently they offer condensed and superficial reviews that almost ALWAYS don't take the PC platform into consideration. They are hacks, plain and simple. Well, you believe what you wish. We do live in an age where misinformed opinions run amok anyway. Point being, bain was not that special and kind of a dick...I'm not shocked people are being dicks on the net over this whole thing, even if it's in incredibly poor taste. But thats gaming culture for you. This is the industry we have chosen.
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Post by SofaJockey on May 27, 2018 5:51:02 GMT
Marketing 101 says that once the leader has said something sensible (Hudson) in order to draw a line under the ex-employee's moment of stupid, then everyone else in the firm needs to STFU and wait for the news story to pass by.
Given this has dropped on a long weekend for many, the story may kick about a few days yet.
For me, the irritation of this story now is that discusions about TotalBiscuit are being derailed into a discussion about David Crooks and generalized outrage posts along the lines of 'fuck BioWare/EA'.
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Post by Kroitz on May 27, 2018 5:56:31 GMT
Now think to yourself: Does this look like a person you should take seriously?
He doesn't seem to be the "running shoes" type of personality.
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PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on May 27, 2018 6:03:02 GMT
Marketing 101 says that once the leader has said something sensible (Hudson) in order to draw a line under the ex-employee's moment of stupid, then everyone else in the firm needs to STFU and wait for the news story to pass by. Given this has dropped on a long weekend for many, the story may kick about a few days yet. For me, the irritation of this story now is that discusions about TotalBiscuit are being derailed into a discussion about David Crooks and generalized outrage posts along the lines of 'fuck BioWare/EA'. What else is new?
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
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Post by bshep on May 27, 2018 8:33:02 GMT
Before this i had not idea who was this Biscuit guy, and i still don't.
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Post by wright1978 on May 27, 2018 8:54:34 GMT
I gotta say i have no issue with Jungbluth's sentiments.
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Post by river82 on May 27, 2018 8:54:39 GMT
I worked with Joe back in the Blistered Thumbs days. Trust me, he is not that thorough. Hardworking, sure, but that's about it. ACG...hes ok but not better than most professionals. His problem is the same thing many of my peers and even I have sometimes, there is no rigor in the writing. It's mostly book-report style of what i've seen of his vs actually being a critic. That is the bane to a good review. I've read hundreds of reviews. The professionals don't do it any better than the so called amateurs on youtube and random sites. They just don't. Because most game reviewers aren't professional critics, and most game journalists aren't actually journalists, so the entire industry is one giant rendition of amateur hour. I know some game journalists and reviewers and in general they know SFA. People who think the amateurs on youtube are automatically worse than the hacks that get published solely because they are published are kidding themselves. EDIT: There's a reason the gaming press are collectively sneered at by pretty much everybody. I find the best gaming reviews are done by passionate members of the community, and so if I need an opinion on a game I hit up some forums. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when I can't trust most professional reviews to actually hand me the information I want. EDIT 2: How many gaming journalists actually hold a degree in journalism and can hold a conversation with seasoned developers on the inner workings of game design? And with reviewers, book reviewers know the ins and outs of novel writing and film reviewers know the ins and outs of movie writing. How many game reviewers know the ins and outs of what makes a game a good experience? And even worse when a game reviewer talks about the quality of a story in the game (like in Telltale or Bioware stuff) how many of them actually know what the hell they're talking about apart from "I liked it!" Almost every time I read a professional game reviewer try and expand on why a game story is excellent it makes me want to cringe.
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Post by river82 on May 27, 2018 9:36:38 GMT
I especially love how some smaller professional game sites tend to take PR advertisements emailed by enthusiastic devs (sometimes indies) and copy and paste the thing wholesale for an article. Those guys aren't even hacks, they're just advertisers.
Or the professional reviewers who write a review after 3 hours of playtime. Or who review games in a genre they have no interest in.
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Post by hivemind on May 27, 2018 10:39:12 GMT
One name: Manveer Heir. He wasn't some nameless grunt, but literally The Face of BioWare. They've been sending him to all those GDC talks about Diversity, tolerance and Stuff. And when people started questioning his racist remarks what did BioWare did? Nothing. Pretended nothing happened. There wasn't even General Manager's damage control tweets like the one Casey made right now. Behavior like this is rampant in BioWare and at this point i am convinced that people like the one Casey is talking about do represent general BioWare's attitude. Grave Dancing is not out of their current character. The fact itself that Casey did said anything is telling that he is indeed have a bits of sanity left in him. No other BioWare or EA official did any of this. I'm struggling to reconcile much of this post with reality. Manveer the face of BioWare? Hardly. He was a controversial loose cannon. I don't know the employees at BioWare personally, nor do you, unless there's some insider knowledge you have. I can see no evidence of a vein of nastiness in the BioWare workforce, to suggest so is just speculative clap-trap in my view. I do think Casey played this well, that I agree with. You think it's a coincidence that some of the most vile and immature developers tend to come from BioWare? Btw, check BioWare's page on glassdoor reviews. It have a lot of answers as to why things the way they are in bioware.
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Post by therevanchist25 on May 27, 2018 10:47:30 GMT
And Glassdoor also says CDPR is a horrible company that gives zero fucks about it's employees, and they admitted as much, saying they just tell people to suck it up or piss off. No one cares about those reviews tho, because gamers love CDPR. Glassdoor is hardly the be all end all.
Also, it's truly a shame that people have to behave this way in general. This is truly just sad. Lastly, I only watch reviews on Youtube, "official" "Professional" reviews are hardly anything but. Too often their content and the tone of said content is influenced by Paid Advertisements or threats to never get any more review copies. Youtube people almost never have these issues, they typically pay out of pocket for their copies, and provide an unfiltered opinion, and more often than not, do not assign some pointless numeric score to a title, because those numbers mean absolutely nothing.
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Post by SofaJockey on May 27, 2018 10:51:04 GMT
You think it's a coincidence that some of the most vile and immature developers tend to come from BioWare? With the current case and Manveer's controversial history excepted, I see no evidence of that. Are you just making this stuff up? And if you hate the company so much, why play their games? I don't get it.
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Post by rras1994 on May 27, 2018 10:55:05 GMT
You think it's a coincidence that some of the most vile and immature developers tend to come from BioWare? With the current case and Manveer's controversial history excepted, I see no evidence of that. Are you just making this stuff up? Yeah, even with the current case and Manveer (who they just happened to let go at the end of his contract.....) I've seen much worse come from some devs. That BioWare is the most vile is just flat out lies at this point.
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Post by SofaJockey on May 27, 2018 12:26:57 GMT
Perhaps because whether someone likes a company or not, they can still like some of their products. Perhaps indeed. It will be interesting to hear if that is the case, though the poster is under no obligation to respond.
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Post by linksocarina on May 27, 2018 12:57:33 GMT
Well, you believe what you wish. We do live in an age where misinformed opinions run amok anyway. Point being, bain was not that special and kind of a dick...I'm not shocked people are being dicks on the net over this whole thing, even if it's in incredibly poor taste. But thats gaming culture for you. This is the industry we have chosen. Smh. Your choice of words is rather ironic: "We do live in an age where misinformed opinions run amok anyway." I mean, not to get personal, but you are a guy writing game reviews on a website, much of it (to take your recent FC5 review as an example) seems largely subjective, but to you contrasting opinions are "misinformed"? By all means, if we are already into mudslinging territory here, don't make empty claims, back up your criticism of Bain with facts. I worked with Joe back in the Blistered Thumbs days. Trust me, he is not that thorough. Hardworking, sure, but that's about it. ACG...hes ok but not better than most professionals. His problem is the same thing many of my peers and even I have sometimes, there is no rigor in the writing. It's mostly book-report style of what i've seen of his vs actually being a critic. That is the bane to a good review. Don't know why Angry Joe and TB are mentioned together here, as their style couldn't be more different. Angry Joe has more in common with Twitch screamers than with an actual reviewer. TB on the other hand did actual reviews, or rather *first impressions* (as he often emphasized). And for what they were, they were rather in depth, even if personally I didn't always agree with his impressions. (naturally) As for rigor in the writing, again, if I take the article of yours I mentioned as an example, I saw there more an approach of looking at things through a personal lens and interpreting them on that level than actual reviewing of a game. That style might be interesting on an intellectual level (or more so, useful as intellectual masturbation aid for people who are like-minded politically and philosophically), but beyond this or some sort of academic value (if one feels charitable) is it truly useful as a *video game review*? Is it supposed to be a bias-guide? IS it supposed to tell you whether you might find the game fun in actuality? TB often referred to his reviews as bias-guide, he had a certain taste, and people who were familiar with it (or shared it) could use his impressions to divine whether X product might be fun for them. This is not supposed to be IGN, where every game is either game of the year material, or gets a participation trophy just because. Honestly, I find your reaction here rather symptomatic of the disconnect between gaming journalists and the gaming crowd, which is precisely what made people like TB so successful. In my opinion, the division between the so called "professionals" and the "enthusiast press" is in many cases non-existent. Much of it has to do with different interests, agendas, and different crowds that they aim to cater to. Certainly, I've come to look at YongYea and his ilk with a certain level of distaste, mainly due to their rampant use of click-bait and tendency to escalate even when unwarranted, but I still find them more palatable than many pseudo-intellectual, agenda-driven (well, often enough), "professionals", because at least there the bias is apparent immediately. First, I didn't review far cry 5 I did a feature on it. That allows me to be a bit more creative with the thesis of the article and thematic elements. As a teacher that appeals to me so it is what I seek on youtube, actually. Intellectual masturbation or not. On that techraptor website I have a few recent reviews such as my lovely daughter, dragon's crown pro and Star wars episode 1 racer if you want to check them out as a comparison for what you said above. More or less I agree and am fine with folks having a certains style or point of view. I object to it being a book report all the time because that is part of the problem poor reviews, that and limited scope and vocabulary. Second, there is a difference in the end, and after being on the other side I can see why there is so much frustration on the part of actual journalists. I'm frankly sick and tired of the broad brushing sort of all press being "hacks" to use a word for it and the almost blind praise of folks on what is essentially tv. The entire culture at large is systematically blinded by its own rules and flashy lights, it mistakes good and bad work constantly, is filled with rage that needs to be fed and flocks to it. It is looking to confirm their own bias and will use any excuse to do it. It goes further and lambasted game after game with that seething rage, be it on purpose or a shtick or just a profanity-filled tirade. All this connection to a fanbase...most of them throw it away for money or fame or their own ends in the end. Their own gratification of getting their thoughts out. And before you say it, journalists doing the same is a problem too. But it's funny how folks are quick to condemn one group over another thanks to the sour reputation of journalists. Those who have abused their platform are no better here, but since they have the name in front of them on their website they are worse, always it seems. I wrote this man's obituary despite my own disdain for him, because it's the professional thing to do. Left out details on his more controversial scandals because it's not appropriate. I'm pissed that someone who worked at Bioware would be as vile as they did. Yet I'm always going to be the hack here because I'm not on youtube. Who cares about what the hack says in the end, remember? Why even bother then? Its not my job to cater to anyones ego or expectations in what I write. I also don't need to waste my time writing for those deeming me a hack, whheter its deserved or not. If that is why there is a disconnect between the crowd, well, maybe there should be for the simple fact that a few folks in that mess can do the job better without their imput. I just need to do my job and do it to the best of my ability, without putting my own ego into it. That's hard enough when work is edited before release, you know. Or maybe i'm just getting incredibly jaded at this point with what our culture is. I'm increasingly hoping to interact with it less as time goes on simply due to all the spitefulness.
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Post by Sanunes on May 27, 2018 13:01:21 GMT
And Glassdoor also says CDPR is a horrible company that gives zero fucks about it's employees, and they admitted as much, saying they just tell people to suck it up or piss off. No one cares about those reviews tho, because gamers love CDPR. Glassdoor is hardly the be all end all. This is one chief difference between the west and countries like Poland, standards of living there are not quite what they are in the US for example. This reality is exactly what allows companies to find relatively cheap labor there, which provides an engine of growth for those who can capitalize on that. I don't really know what's going on in CDPR, but I wouldn't be surprised if many of the complaints are from foreign developers who are unused to the realities of life outside the west proper. Not to mention that crunch and management problems exist practically everywhere in the gaming industry. So in the end, as a consumer there are a few things I care about more than how the company is being managed, like whether I find their products satisfactory. I would suggest reading the article on Kotaku about it since they were pretty much one of the few that covered it. It seems the complaints boiled down to basically bad management causing the studio to be under crunch all the time. It was done by western developers because they know better, I won't give a free pass to poor behavior like that because and just because you live in countries like that doesn't mean you should be exploited by people that should know better. A lower paying wage is one thing based on where you live, you can see that just from different regions on the United States for cost of living does have an impact, but shitty working conditions are shitty working conditions.
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Post by hivemind on May 27, 2018 13:30:52 GMT
You think it's a coincidence that some of the most vile and immature developers tend to come from BioWare? With the current case and Manveer's controversial history excepted, I see no evidence of that. Are you just making this stuff up? i reserve a right to say "i told you so" when next bioware developer reveal himself as a pile of petty garbage he is. This is going to happen, they can't help themselves. And if you hate the company so much, why play their games? I don't get it. because i give a damn. BioWare was for me something more than just a developer, and seeing them continiously falling, breaking one bottom after another just hurts.
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Post by SofaJockey on May 27, 2018 13:35:26 GMT
With the current case and Manveer's controversial history excepted, I see no evidence of that. Are you just making this stuff up? i reserve a right to say "i told you so" when next bioware developer reveal himself as a pile of petty garbage he is. This is going to happen, they can't help themselves. And if you hate the company so much, why play their games? I don't get it. because i give a damn. BioWare was for me something more than just a developer, and seeing them continiously falling, breaking one bottom after another just hurts. Thanks for the helpful answer. Yes, I guess we'll see. the proof is in the pudding. I can understand a relationship with a dev can change over time. May I ask what was the last BioWare game you played/enjoyed?
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Post by river82 on May 27, 2018 13:38:22 GMT
This is truly just sad. Lastly, I only watch reviews on Youtube, "official" "Professional" reviews are hardly anything but. Too often their content and the tone of said content is influenced by Paid Advertisements or threats to never get any more review copies. Youtube people almost never have these issues, they typically pay out of pocket for their copies, and provide an unfiltered opinion, and more often than not, do not assign some pointless numeric score to a title, because those numbers mean absolutely nothing. Sometimes the organisations aren't even subtle about it. Like in the case of Donkey Konga 2: "A freelancer for GameSpy wrote up a review of Donkey Konga 2 which they did not approve of, but instead of simply doing away with it or directly pasting a press release into the news script, they tarted it up and shoved it out on stage.To hear him tell it, they changed his one point five score to a three, adulterating it further with phrases friendly to the game in question. The review has since been removed, hauled off the Internet - but Google remembers all. Or, at any rate, it did." Or how Gertsmann was fired over a poor score for Kane and Lynch: "So disclose Gerstmann has, confirming with GameSpot's Jon Davison that after a succession of challenges with management and advertisers he was "called into a room" and "terminated" because he "couldn't be trusted" as editorial director (ie, in charge of reviews), kicking off one of the saddest and sorriest episodes in an often sad and sorry relationship between games writers and games publishers. Interestingly, he mentions some other less-than-savoury episodes going on at the time, such as pressure from Sony and threats of pulling ad money over a less-than-perfect review for Ratchet & Clank Future: Tools of Destruction. This took place before the Kane & Lynch review, and thus (along with a change to the site's review system, which brought the average of scores down) contributed to the conflict between ownership and editorial over review scores, meaning Eidos' game shouldn't be blamed as the sole offender." In general though it's not the overly positive game reviews that does it for me, it's just a combination of many different things. Like how most game reviewers don't play the entire game, which leads to stuff like many reviewers missing that Stellaris has almost no content mid game, or whether systems become stale, samey, or grindy late in the game. It's things like how most reviews read like it's written to a sodding template, written and shoved at the audience as quickly as possible in a bid to be the first one out the door, which results in not delving deeply enough into issues - too superficial and lacking depth. Things like often not having the balls to call out real issues and so they'll tiptoe and gloss over inadequacies in the game. A hundred different things which essentially just boils down to "not being at all useful" have turned me off most professional game reviews, and definitely big site reviews like gamespot and IGN. Some smaller sites are still decent for reviews, though.
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Post by river82 on May 27, 2018 13:49:00 GMT
In fact, the overly critical nature of Youtube celebrities is a direct result of the sycophantic tone game reviewers and journalists have adopted for well over the past decade. The public is sick of it*, which resulted in an overcorrection the other way. * A 2006 comic:
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