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Post by duskwanderer on Jun 23, 2018 19:50:54 GMT
The "king templars" were on red lyrium at the time. They'd believe whatever Corypheus told them: He literally controlled them. I'm sorry, but you need a better reason than "BECAUSE I SAID SO!" It feels like I'm talking to a cultist. You said the mages aren't trustworthy, because let themselves tricked by Alexius. (No, they still didn't want to destroy Southern-Thedas with Tevinter force – even according to Dorian, Alexius manipulated them.) But you even said, the Templars are trustworthy, because they only brainwashed addicts, cultists... So: according to you, nobody (not even a mage or an elf) can trust the mages, but everybody can trust the Templars because while they served that demon they served it just because they're brainwashed and red-lyrium addict... I think you convinced me. Really. Manipulated them how? Did he use blood magic to control them? No. Did he trick them into thinking the templars were after them? No. All he did was offer a deal. Fiona accepted it. Like an idiot. The mages need to accept the consequences of their freely chosen actions. The only thing the templars chose was to go to Thereinfall. That isn't a crime, nor is it something an elf would dislike. Once the templars weren't on the red stuff, they were fine. The mages by contrast, were not fine. They struck a deal with Tevinter. As Alistair/Anora mentioned, this is a crime under Ferelden law.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 23, 2018 20:02:24 GMT
You said the mages aren't trustworthy, because let themselves tricked by Alexius. (No, they still didn't want to destroy Southern-Thedas with Tevinter force – even according to Dorian, Alexius manipulated them.) But you even said, the Templars are trustworthy, because they only brainwashed addicts, cultists... So: according to you, nobody (not even a mage or an elf) can trust the mages, but everybody can trust the Templars because while they served that demon they served it just because they're brainwashed and red-lyrium addict... I think you convinced me. Really. Manipulated them how? Did he use blood magic to control them? No. Did he trick them into thinking the templars were after them? No. All he did was offer a deal. Fiona accepted it. Like an idiot. The mages need to accept the consequences of their freely chosen actions. The only thing the templars chose was to go to Thereinfall. That isn't a crime, nor is it something an elf would dislike. Once the templars weren't on the red stuff, they were fine. The mages by contrast, were not fine. They struck a deal with Tevinter. As Alistair/Anora mentioned, this is a crime under Ferelden law. Eh to be fair at the time he made the deal the Templar army was heading towards them, then coincidentally after the deal was made the Templars backed off. Even Fiona expresses suspicion about that while we talk to Alexius the first time, but by that time it was too late to go back.
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Post by mikoto on Jun 24, 2018 3:16:59 GMT
Well, first off all my Inquisitors are either pro-mage or in the very least mage-neutral.
My female mage Trevelyan was hoping to ally with the rebel mages from the first moment it became apparent that the Inquisition needed to ally with either mages or templars to stop the Breach. So of course when Fiona shows up in Val Royeaux after the Templars have basically told her and the Inquisition to get lost, and offers to negotiate an alliance she's all over it. Then of course she goes to Redcliff where the whole time magic and Dorian thing goes down. By then it seems like Alexius is by far the most pressing concern over contacting the Templars. Naturally she doesn't want to see the mages imprisoned again so she offers an alliance over conscription.
The same could be said for my female mage Lavellan. Although she hasn't experienced the Circle, she is aware that Templars hunt Dalish mages/clans if they get the opportunity which makes them a natural enemy to her. Couple that with her sympathy for fellow mages and that's how it works out. (I have a rogue Lavellan too but she feels similarly, afterall her Keeper and First are mages she's fond of.)
Now, my female warrior Vashoth feels a bit different. She's entirely neutral towards both mages and Templars. Her only concern has been surviving in the human-dominated southern Thedas with first her family then Valo-Kas. Her experience with mage Vashoth mercenaries has been pretty neutral and she hasn't met all that many Circle mages or Templars. If anything she feels the Chantry-Templar bias against mages is a little much. Anyway what happens in Val Royeaux shapes her choice. On the one hand she sees Templars punch out a helpless priest-something she knows goes against what human society finds acceptable. Then the Templars deride the Inquisition and basically tell her to get stuffed. Then on the way out Fiona offers an invitation to Redcliff to discuss the possibility of an alliance. So with one group basically telling her to stuff herself and the other actively offering to negotiate, for my Adaar the choice is easy. Then of course she gets to Redcliff, meets Alexius, Dorian and the whole time magic shebang and by that point she's convinced that the most urgent matter is getting Alexius and his time magic sorted. Afterwards despite Fiona's bad decision she offers them alliance over conscription because she doesn't believe prisoners will work as hard or as loyally as allies.
I have both a male and a female Trevelyan warriors with the male one being a true Andrastian believer but again due to the conditions in Val Royeaux they side with the mages for pretty much the same reason as my Adaar.
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lilyonce
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Post by lilyonce on Jun 25, 2018 13:14:01 GMT
Probably something said similar to what people thought when Anders blew up a Chantry: mages can be dangerous. I think it says more than that. I think it's archetypal and a cautionary tale. She was kind of naive or willing to overlook real danger in favor of an ideal- and so was killed by a psychopath obscured by the ideal. And psychopaths often present themselves ideally and prey on naive people- that's worth noting. That's not the case with Corypheus (he's a different version the psycho hidden behind the ideal as I said) but it's not irrelevant. It comes out as another expression of this same trope IMO. Mages are in some sense the ultimate predators. They look like everyone else but very much are not and are actually very dangerous- and if they don't realize how dangerous they are (which most seem oblivious) that's even worse. Some distrust of that is always warranted IMO and probably involuntary. Fear of mages can't be chalked up to "Chantry propaganda" for such a reason IMO. It's too simple. And probably the worst tactic is to try and convince everyone they aren't dangerous- it feels like a sham. Lambert is a tyrant- no doubt about that. He's an exaggerated and paranoid watchful "father figure"- but he's still the father figure (and a Seeker that has seen plenty of bad mages like we have I'm sure) and he's right to ask what price should be paid for idealism. I think she pays it. And unattached to his pathology- the rationale for circles just isn't a "convenient tale". I agree mages are children of the Maker but whatever that means for them it surely doesn't mean they're harmless. The best way to approach it IMO goes something like they are absolutely dangerous and they know it and everyone else knows it but the best of them actively choose otherwise and use their powers for good. Like a mage Inquisitor or Warden.
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Post by The_Smiling_Bandit on Jun 26, 2018 1:49:15 GMT
I sided Templar in most runs because it just makes sense to me. “Oh, there’s this big magic whole in the sky. Should we shoot magic or anti-magic into it?”
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dmc1001
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 26, 2018 2:57:01 GMT
I sided Templar in most runs because it just makes sense to me. “Oh, there’s this big magic whole in the sky. Should we shoot magic or anti-magic into it?” Whereas I took the side of "hey, the Tevinter Imperium is about to steal all of our mages", which frankly sounds bad, not to mention the guy I then find who is playing with time magic. Of course, by that point my decision is already made by game mechanics.
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Post by duskwanderer on Jun 26, 2018 2:58:41 GMT
Manipulated them how? Did he use blood magic to control them? No. Did he trick them into thinking the templars were after them? No. All he did was offer a deal. Fiona accepted it. Like an idiot. The mages need to accept the consequences of their freely chosen actions. The only thing the templars chose was to go to Thereinfall. That isn't a crime, nor is it something an elf would dislike. Once the templars weren't on the red stuff, they were fine. The mages by contrast, were not fine. They struck a deal with Tevinter. As Alistair/Anora mentioned, this is a crime under Ferelden law. Eh to be fair at the time he made the deal the Templar army was heading towards them, then coincidentally after the deal was made the Templars backed off. Even Fiona expresses suspicion about that while we talk to Alexius the first time, but by that time it was too late to go back. As I said, choice and consequence.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 26, 2018 5:46:41 GMT
I sided Templar in most runs because it just makes sense to me. “Oh, there’s this big magic whole in the sky. Should we shoot magic or anti-magic into it?” ARE Templar powers actually "anti-magic"? They come from the same source as magic. They have similar effects. Regardless of who you recruit, nothing is being "shot" into it. The Breach is being suppressed so the Inquisitor can use the Anchor to close it.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 26, 2018 5:48:25 GMT
Eh to be fair at the time he made the deal the Templar army was heading towards them, then coincidentally after the deal was made the Templars backed off. Even Fiona expresses suspicion about that while we talk to Alexius the first time, but by that time it was too late to go back. As I said, choice and consequence. Fiona struck a deal with Tevinter. There wasn't a vote on it. You're saying they deserve to be enslaved because they were betrayed by leadership?
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Post by The_Smiling_Bandit on Jun 26, 2018 11:13:54 GMT
I sided Templar in most runs because it just makes sense to me. “Oh, there’s this big magic whole in the sky. Should we shoot magic or anti-magic into it?” ARE Templar powers actually "anti-magic"? They come from the same source as magic. They have similar effects. Regardless of who you recruit, nothing is being "shot" into it. The Breach is being suppressed so the Inquisitor can use the Anchor to close it. I'm not certain it would be obvious to those in universe that Templar and Mage powers comes from the same source, and Templar seem to be anti-magic.
And I'll admit, I'm being a little facetious with my language.
But I do mean it when I say that generally the Templar seem like the safer bet to actually closing The Breach.
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simit
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Chris2k30
PSN: Simit2k30
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Post by simit on Jun 26, 2018 12:38:46 GMT
First playthrough i went with mages simple because the templars were dicks when first encountered, didnt think much beyond that tbh.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jun 26, 2018 17:48:32 GMT
Fiona struck a deal with Tevinter. There wasn't a vote on it. You're saying they deserve to be enslaved because they were betrayed by leadership? Fiona wasn't forcing anyone to stay in Redcliffe...
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 26, 2018 17:54:13 GMT
Fiona struck a deal with Tevinter. There wasn't a vote on it. You're saying they deserve to be enslaved because they were betrayed by leadership? Fiona wasn't forcing anyone to stay in Redcliffe... No, they just had to flee across an active war zone.
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Post by duskwanderer on Jun 27, 2018 0:21:09 GMT
As I said, choice and consequence. Fiona struck a deal with Tevinter. There wasn't a vote on it. You're saying they deserve to be enslaved because they were betrayed by leadership? How do you know there wasn't a vote on it? A lot of the mages you talk to in Redcliffe support the idea. You also have to pick your leaders. These people went into things eyes wide open. Forgive me if I think they might deserve their own fate.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 27, 2018 0:45:17 GMT
Fiona struck a deal with Tevinter. There wasn't a vote on it. You're saying they deserve to be enslaved because they were betrayed by leadership? How do you know there wasn't a vote on it? A lot of the mages you talk to in Redcliffe support the idea. You also have to pick your leaders. These people went into things eyes wide open. Forgive me if I think they might deserve their own fate. Yes, I'm sure they knew, years (decades?) earlier, that Fiona would sell them down the river. I bet that was in her campaign speech.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 27, 2018 1:27:21 GMT
How do you know there wasn't a vote on it? A lot of the mages you talk to in Redcliffe support the idea. You also have to pick your leaders. These people went into things eyes wide open. Forgive me if I think they might deserve their own fate. Yes, I'm sure they knew, years (decades?) earlier, that Fiona would sell them down the river. I bet that was in her campaign speech. This is a good campaign speech! Everyone loves to be slave... But not: Fiona would never sell her people nor herself. She was a slave. I'm sure, Alexius time/blood magic tricked her – and this was clear: she didn't know everything when she negotiates with Alexius. She was surprised and outraged when Alexius revealed his conditions. This was about they have to serve the Imperium for ten years for the full citizenship. This isn't exactly slavery. And she didn't know every detail as I said.
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Post by phoray on Jun 27, 2018 1:46:00 GMT
Lord Seeker: "And what price would you have us pay for such idealism, Most Holy?" Justinia: "Idealism is our stock-in-trade, Lambert. A religion without ideals is tyranny." I agree with her. But I wonder what it says that she was blown up by the most evil mage in the history of Thedas not too long after this was said. What does it say for the end of slavery that Abraham Lincoln was assasinated? What does it say for American Democracy that JFK and his brother was assasinated? Being murdered doesn't make you wrong.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jun 27, 2018 2:06:40 GMT
Being murdered doesn't make you wrong. This is a really good point. It's worth noting though, too, that it doesn't make someone right either, though. One thing I feel like (and I realize I'm generalizing here) is very often lost on the DA fanbase is that yes, victimizing others is generally a "bad" thing, but I feel like very often people turn that around and then use that to claim that people who have victimized are therefore the "good" guys by default. This series is a lot more gray than that. It's interesting, now that I think about it, that DA2 ends with a Chantry official with a very conservative viewpoint being assassinated in a massive explosion caused by a Mage, and DAI begins with a Chantry official with a very liberal viewpoint being assassinated in a massive explosion caused by a Mage.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 27, 2018 2:14:47 GMT
Being murdered doesn't make you wrong. This is a really good point. It's worth noting though, too, that it doesn't make someone right either, though. One thing I feel like (and I realize I'm generalizing here) is very often lost on the DA fanbase is that yes, victimizing others is generally a "bad" thing, but I feel like very often people turn that around and then use that to claim that people who have victimized are therefore the "good" guys by default. This series is a lot more gray than that. It's interesting, now that I think about it, that DA2 ends with a Chantry official with a very conservative viewpoint being assassinated in a massive explosion caused by a Mage, and DAI begins with a Chantry official with a very liberal viewpoint being assassinated in a massive explosion caused by a Mage. But the two explosion's reason was very different. By the way, the explosions' winner was the Chantry – got a chance to a new beginning...
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Post by phoray on Jun 27, 2018 3:27:29 GMT
This is a really good point. It's worth noting though, too, that it doesn't make someone right either, though. I absolutely agree, but I was responding to a poster who semi-implied that she got blown up as some sort of indirect attempt to undermine her beliefs as per the writers intent (or some karmic destiny that likes to correct people with death). If getting assasinated was a sign your beliefs were wrong... And even as I typed out Abe Lincoln and such, I kept in mind that plenty of dictators have been over thrown as well. To be murdered is meaningless either way.
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lilyonce
N3
The whole universe is...
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
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Post by lilyonce on Jun 27, 2018 4:31:57 GMT
Being murdered doesn't make you wrong. It's not about the murder per se though that puts things in perspective- it's really bad to be wrong about this. I do think there's a price to be paid for blind idealism. Justinia seemed to question without real thought the very idea of the circles and is destroyed by the evil that led to their creation. It may not have been conscious on the part of the writers or maybe it was- I don't know but archetypically it seems right to me.
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Post by phoray on Jun 27, 2018 4:42:57 GMT
Being murdered doesn't make you wrong. It's not about the murder per se though that puts things in perspective- it's really bad to be wrong about this. I do think there's a price to be paid for blind idealism. Justinia seemed to question without real thought the very idea of the circles and is destroyed by the evil that led to their creation. It may not have been conscious on the part of the writers or maybe it was- I don't know but archetypically it seems right to me. Justinia had a left hand. I laugh at the idea of her being accused of Blind Idealism
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The whole universe is...
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Post by lilyonce on Jun 27, 2018 5:09:33 GMT
Justinia had a left hand. I laugh at the idea of her being accused of Blind Idealism The justification for the circles is a convenient tale she says. That's blind.
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Post by phoray on Jun 27, 2018 6:11:58 GMT
Justinia had a left hand. I laugh at the idea of her being accused of Blind Idealism The justification for the circles is a convenient tale she says. That's blind. When you have a country just north of you that shows that the Circle isn't needed, how is it blind? it's more like she and people like her just removed their head from their ass and accepted their is a viable alternative that wipes out the excuses? Didn't she also say something along the lines of, "We pull out the mages for wars, then stuff them back into a circle when they aren't useful anymore?" I haven't read Asunder/Masked Empire in a while, like over a year, so I may be mis quoting her. I really hate that Justinia died and got replaced with subpar options.
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Post by opuspace on Jun 27, 2018 6:29:13 GMT
The justification for the circles is a convenient tale she says. That's blind. When you have a country just north of you that shows that the Circle isn't needed, how is it blind? it's more like she and people like her just removed their head from their ass and accepted their is a viable alternative that wipes out the excuses? Didn't she also say something along the lines of, "We pull out the mages for wars, then stuff them back into a circle when they aren't useful anymore?" I haven't read Asunder/Masked Empire in a while, like over a year, so I may be mis quoting her. I really hate that Justinia died and got replaced with subpar options. Out of curiosity, what was it about Cassandra's approach with the mages and Templars that made her subpar? (Not my favorite Divine, but hers seemed the closest to a compromise compared to the other extremes)
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