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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 10, 2018 17:15:15 GMT
I was sharing a conversation with a dev [who does not work for BioWare] about how BSN (to them) appeared to be a forum full of, well let's say that they were reminded of the AskAGameDev article about online forums, in which forum members are described as often being 'trolls and zealots'. This remark was caused by their disappointment in what they perceived was a strongly negative reaction to Anthem on this forum. This needs context. BSN attracts diehard, hardcore, traditionalist Bioware fans. Heck, we have guys still pining for the days of Baldur's Gate and see DAO as paving the road to hell. Is that the target audience for Anthem? I don't think so. So negativity on the whole is totally expected. Check out /r/AnthemTheGame on Reddit for a better cross-section of Anthem's intended audience, though that sub isn't free of toxicity either. Some of it from diehard Bioware fans, sadly, but not all. Bioware is evolving and there is always a segment of a fandom that hates change. This forum happens to have an overabundance of that segment. That's all that's going on here, I think. Zero, and bite your tongue! But "negative opinion" is not the issue. Civil, intelligent criticism should never be a target for screening. Uncivil, antisocial behavior, aka "toxic", on the other hand, has no place in any society, online or irl. And community disapprobation should be enough to squelch it, with intelligent moderator intervention in the most extreme inflammatory cases.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 10, 2018 17:21:11 GMT
I'd argue Dev's have become used to twitter which means they don't really have to engage with anything that isn't a hype generator. Pretty much disagree with everything else in your post (and others about Anthem), but not this. I wholeheartedly agree that the switch to general social media was, in part, to control the narrative. Sure, it also brings immediacy and a hugely larger megaphone to a humongously larger audience, but the platform itself limits the depth of discourse. Which naturally leads to more nonsense, which naturally leads to more tools for filtering out nonsense, and there goes the baby with the bathwater. You can literally tweet something and ignore the replies, because most of the people replying don't see other replies unless they put effort into finding the thread. Even the f-ing Tweet stream isn't chronological unless you force it to be, because, hey, Twitter's AI just knows better than I do what I want to read next. FFS.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 10, 2018 17:24:00 GMT
I mean, there's hardly anyone here to be honest. Worth mentioning that our daily viewership fluctuates from 3,000 in-between games and 20,000 at launch peak. 85% of whom just lurk and don't post. Mark Darrah alone has over 31,000 followers. /r/AnthemTheGame has over 23,000 subscribers -- you can probably triple that for views this weekend. It's just not in the same class in terms of audience size.
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Post by Kroitz on Jun 10, 2018 17:25:48 GMT
A developer who expects public opinions to be nothing more than a cheap ad-avenue, can kindly go find themself in the alps.
A fan who sees the need to make personal attacks their mission, likewise.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 10, 2018 17:27:00 GMT
Mark Darrah alone has over 31,000 followers. /r/AnthemTheGame has over 23,000 subscribers -- you can probably triple that for views this weekend. It's just not in the same class in terms of audience size. We have Hrungr...
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 10, 2018 17:31:56 GMT
Mark Darrah alone has over 31,000 followers. /r/AnthemTheGame has over 23,000 subscribers -- you can probably triple that for views this weekend. It's just not in the same class in terms of audience size. We have Hrungr ... Fair point. Hrungr is a social media platform unto himself
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Post by helios969 on Jun 10, 2018 17:40:10 GMT
The negativity isn't any worse for these forums than any other I've visited. As someone else said it's the internet...the place where any unfiltered A-hole can say whatever they want while hiding behind a monitor. As an ol' timer from the days of KOTOR I've seen Bioware games go through a gambit of iterations. Anthem doesn't really seem any different. From my POV if they manage to tell a good story filled with interesting characters they really haven't deviated all that much.
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Post by malgus on Jun 10, 2018 17:41:11 GMT
A lot of the thing I have seen here and there, I will say yes and no. Is there too much toxicity? Yes I have seen people just showing their hatred of this game non stop even before we knew more about it, even with the announcment that there is no loot box and no pay to win advantage you can buy, many people still say that there is. (like a comment on yongyea video (where the youtuber actually repeats that indeed this is not a battlefront 2) but some people that follows him insist that pay to win mechanic are there ) Many people WANTS this game to be bad just because its publish by EA due to past grievance towards his developper or his publisher. On the other hand, some of the negative reception was to be excepted, Anthem is very different from anything Bioware has made before, and many of their previous fanbase don't want that type of game. Actually I was excepting more negative reception that there is right now.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 10, 2018 17:47:13 GMT
(like a comment on yongyea video (where the youtuber actually repeats that indeed this is not a battlefront 2) but some people that follows him insist that pay to win mechanic are there ) The problem Yong has is that he's developed a rather particular viewership who enjoyed all the 'Fuck microtransactions, fuck EA' videos, so when he's a bit more conciliatory because there's some good news, his viewer base isn't having any of it.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jun 10, 2018 17:56:09 GMT
I was sharing a conversation with a dev [who does not work for BioWare] about how BSN (to them) appeared to be a forum full of, well let's say that they were reminded of the AskAGameDev article about online forums, in which forum members are described as often being 'trolls and zealots'. This remark was caused by their disappointment in what they perceived was a strongly negative reaction to Anthem on this forum.
Do you feel that's true? I'm seeing both positive and negative reactions (and a fair amount of 'don't knows') What relationship does and should a 'fan' gaming community have with its respective game studio? What duty does a fan forum have to screen out any negative opinion (if any)? 'Fans' and devs are welcome to share their perspectives on this discussion as they like. * please note * I'm not referencing the individual I chatted with because they are entitled to their view, it's the principle we're discussing (unless they wish to pop in). Let's be responsible, people. BioWare should acknowledge their fans concerns and technical problems (IE bugs and glitches) with their games but have limited interactions with them on any subjects like politics, sexuality, and themes because these issues have varying degrees of importance to individual fans but are often taken out of context by people with their own agenda that is usually at odds with the devs, or easily blown out of proportion and/or misunderstood to be the whole company's stance on any issue.
Players should be respectful, constructive, and polite with the devs. If you act like a complete and total asshole to them this will NOT make them whatever your problem with their games seriously and will not help anybody including your problem.
Also please for the love of God stop thinking that you speak for all fans. YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME! There was no election for this random player to be the voice of a majority or a minority of players. Speak for yourself and only for yourself and if I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with you that is fine. I love ME:A and have and will continue to defend it. I have never thought of myself as the voice of the ME:A fans and defenders, I have my opinions and even in that same group there are major differences between us. I've not been impressed with any of the marketing for Anthem and don't feel that this game is for me. That is my OPINION and MY OPINION it is not the sole opinion of this site or of any BioWare forum I go to and it's not the opinion of players in general.
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Post by Shinrai on Jun 10, 2018 18:11:46 GMT
Attention - lots of blabber, grammatical butchering and rambling so skip it if you have no interest in reading thank you - This is a complex topic and the circumstance alone that you opened a thread about this topic shows what kind of community we have here and what place this forum is. I know lots of sites where such a thread would go downhill in mere seconds without any substancial content in it. And I wandered through our forum after I read your thread opening Jockey to confirm that we are overly negative and I couldn't really find anything overly negative I have to say. Might be just my personal opinion though. Sure there are our typical skecpticals and voices of reason and given that Anthem is new, doesn't represent what the core community of this forum might play most of the time and the few informations we actually got out of E3 and the like (which is not much) - so a healthy dose of "Don't knows" and "Maybes" and "I hope that it will/won't have"s is normal oO. Don't really know what a dev might expect in such a situation. That they want to be recognized for their hard work I can understand. It is hard work to develop a game. But with so many open questions and given how toxic triple A industry as a whole became in recent years I think it is to early to hope for a red carpet with fanfares - if you know what I mean. I don't mean it in a bad way. Just don't know how to express it better. I think it is a pretty complex topic given the past between the BSN and Bioware as a whole and the public awareness in the past because of it through other gaming websites and the like. Pretty nasty stuff. We got a bit of stigma there and never could shake it off to a degree which is kind of sad given that the majority of people here aren't all piss and vinegar. What I think is short and simple: You should have the right (as a forum user) to express concerns and critic in a gaming forum - especially if you have facts for arguments and people with whom you can discuss this in a mature way. And we have this kind of people here. And we have a good system in cleaning up this place over and over again. Otherwise our community would have burnt to hell after the 3rd forum closing few years back or even earlier. And the fact that we are still here must mean something, right? And although I admit that there is a certain toxciticy in this community - and always was btw - we learned to handle that pretty well in my opinion and especially your mod team does a good job ( so don't feel disheartened yourself ). I remember the time Andromeda launched and you worked all your asses off to keep the people in check, which was not easy - that I'm sure. It is a fan forum for god's sake and to say fans shouldn't discuss what they are most passionate about (games they love) feels kind of weird. I can understand that you can feel disheartened if you read that the thing you are so passionate about while developing it isn't for everyone and that some dismiss it, while some others voices their sceptisism. But I think if you are in this buisness you have to learn how to handle such thing in a professional way without getting everything too much in a personal way. Hell I had to learn that in the child care I work there will be always 1 or 2 children who don't want to do the things I want to do with them or that they don't like the song we sing (or my voice lol) or they argue with me because how I dare say Salami does not grow on trees. I know I pair apples with oranges here but man. Life isn't easy and you have to cope with it. You can't do what everyone wants. There will always be someone who doesn't like your way. And they will voice it. And the more you try to surpress it the louder and nastier it gets. Especially if those people want that you accept their opinions - regardless of your own view of life. Learn to cope with it your way. Gamers are different, everyone has another story to tell and other opinions to voice. But to say our forum is massively negative - hm very subjective I must say. Ye olde BSN - man that is a whole different story. But if I have to compare it with the times BW stopped with the mod support there and people went nuts in threads afterwards - I'm really greatefull for this place here and that's why I'm still hang round after all these years.
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Post by malgus on Jun 10, 2018 18:14:03 GMT
(like a comment on yongyea video (where the youtuber actually repeats that indeed this is not a battlefront 2) but some people that follows him insist that pay to win mechanic are there ) The problem Yong has is that he's developed a rather particular viewership who enjoyed all the 'Fuck microtransactions, fuck EA' videos, so when he's a bit more conciliatory because there's some good news, his viewer base isn't having any of it. Yeah and that is the shit part, as someone who enjoyed MEA even when he was criticising the game he was at least informing his viewers when there was something that BW was doing good (for exemple he made videos for all the patches and telling where he saw improvment) and his recent video about Anthem was not a completely negative one. But as you said, many people who watch him are there for that, they are not here to see him summarise the events of the game industry, they are here to see him shit on anything related to EA and could not bother to actually know what the video is actually saying. I remember the Jim sterling videos where he speak about the tragedy of titanfall 2, where he said that the problem was that the game was not going to be a sucess due to EA releasing it between infinite warfare and battlefield 1, despite the fact that its really good . One of the comments was saying " fuck EA and the people who support this" according to him we should boycott titanfall 2 because EA made a bad decision ... not realising that the problem titanfal 2 was suffering was that it was not going to sell enough and on the contrary it needs support because it's good and deseves sucess. But a part of Jim sterling fanbase are also there only for him to shit on publisher no matte the context or the situation. And I am saying that as someone who is a subscriber of his youtube channel, sometime a part of a fanbase is just too toxic
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Post by Pokemario on Jun 10, 2018 18:20:52 GMT
I feel like some overly critic comments might ruin the enthusiasm that, I believe, a fan forum should be about. But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any criticism at all: just be careful with your wording. Saying "I didn't enjoy this game because [...]" is very different from saying "This game is garbage"/"CDPR does things so much better"/"EA destroys everything it touches".
Of course, Anthem is in a very weird spot at the moment. They haven't shown much that would appeal to those who usually play BioWare games so, naturally, most BioWare fans might be feeling disappointed right now - especially since some blame Anthem for Mass Effect Andromeda and others might be resentful that they're prioritizing it over DA4. Still, that doesn't excuse you from acting like a jerk.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 10, 2018 18:29:51 GMT
The Demo is going to be really important.
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Post by Wulfram on Jun 10, 2018 18:30:48 GMT
The negativity isn't any worse for these forums than any other I've visited. As someone else said it's the internet...the place where any unfiltered A-hole can say whatever they want while hiding behind a monitor. As an ol' timer from the days of KOTOR I've seen Bioware games go through a gambit of iterations. Anthem doesn't really seem any different. From my POV if they manage to tell a good story filled with interesting characters they really haven't deviated all that much. If what they've told us made me think that we'd end up with a good story, then I'd have much less of a problem. But I don't see how cordoning everything interactive off in Fort Tarsis is going to result in good story telling, I'm not impressed by the idea of the story serving mostly as an introduction to the world and so far the world itself just seems rather boring to me - everything just seems like it exists for the sake of gameplay. And of course the best parts of Bioware's story telling, sometimes the saving grace, has always been the companions, which they've done away with
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Post by helios969 on Jun 10, 2018 18:38:35 GMT
The negativity isn't any worse for these forums than any other I've visited. As someone else said it's the internet...the place where any unfiltered A-hole can say whatever they want while hiding behind a monitor. As an ol' timer from the days of KOTOR I've seen Bioware games go through a gambit of iterations. Anthem doesn't really seem any different. From my POV if they manage to tell a good story filled with interesting characters they really haven't deviated all that much. If what they've told us made me think that we'd end up with a good story, then I'd have much less of a problem. But I don't see how cordoning everything interactive off in Fort Tarsis is going to result in good story telling, I'm not impressed by the idea of the story serving mostly as an introduction to the world and so far the world itself just seems rather boring to me - everything just seems like it exists for the sake of gameplay. And of course the best parts of Bioware's story telling, sometimes the saving grace, has always been the companions, which they've done away with There will be companions just not ones you take on missions with you. If you really think about it, it will not be significantly different from being limited to interactions with ME/DA companions in camps or hubs. Now Bio does have to deliver on that promise of a story...and I will not automatically assume they will, but you shouldn't entirely dismiss their ability to deliver one either. I can totally envision how it could be pulled off effectively, it just remains to be seen if they can.
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Post by duckley on Jun 10, 2018 18:46:29 GMT
I do have to add that criticism is fine- but many just go over the top with vitriolic hyperbole which is certainly not helpful or constructive. The is one of the challenges with the safety of the internet.
Won't mention that we have some very famous/powerful people modeling ungracious and disrespectful behavior - doing the same thing from their own bully pulpits
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jun 10, 2018 19:30:18 GMT
Criticism is fine. Hatred because it's not "my kind of game" seems silly. I don't go on Indy 500 game forums and complain that it's not a fantasy RPG and they aren't making a game I want.
It's a bit different because it's Bioware, a company known for single-player RPG's with great stories, companions, and romances. I understand that. But do people who play Dragon Age complain that in Mass Effect they cannot switch characters? Do Mass Effect fans complain of Dragon Age that it's not third person action RPG? Did KOTOR fans freak out because Mass Effect wasn't that weird semi-turn based combat KOTOR was? Bioware has always made different kinds of games for different people. It's fine that Dragon Age and Mass Effect are very different from each other. They don't need all the game things because they are both Bioware games.
Gorilla games, who made Horizon: Zero Dawn, were known for first-person shooters, correct? Were those fans full of hate for Horizon because it was so different from earlier games? I don't know, but I doubt it.
It's fine to question whether the game will be good (glitches, gameplay, story, etc.). It's fine to be disappointed that it's not a game for you. But to rip it apart BECAUSE it's not a game type you like seems silly. Go play a game you will enjoy, but let others who may like multiplayer cooperative games with single-player story enjoy the new game they get.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jun 10, 2018 19:34:26 GMT
I’m not going to harass the devs or insult other people who think Anthem looks good. But I’m not going to lie and say what I’m seeing isn’t very compelling.
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Post by OdanUrr on Jun 10, 2018 19:39:01 GMT
What constitutes a 'toxic fan community' I wonder? I often see the term used to dismiss any negative criticism of a product. "Oh, these are haters, they're toxic fans, they're manbabies, etc., etc." To be sure, this kind of derogatory remarks do nothing but aggravate the situation but I'm straying off the point.
So you put out a trailer and some people don't seem too excited about it (insert obligatory Captain American image here). Firstly, the sad reality is that people will more often complain about something than praise it. Negative word of mouth spreads faster and wider than positive word of mouth. Sad, but it is what it is.
Secondly, might there be a grain of truth to some of the criticism? I mean, sure, haters gonna hate, but I think most of us will acknowledge when a company does something right. Case in point, I was pleasantly surprised by Ubisoft's latest iteration in the Assassin's Creed franchise, and they had pretty much lost me after Assassin's Creed III. I can now honestly say I'm looking forward to Assassin's Creed: Odyssey. Back to BioWare, I'm just not that excited about Anthem. Why should I be? It's unlike any game BioWare has made in the past and closely resembles Destiny, a game that holds no interest for me whatsoever. I dutifully watched the trailer and gameplay, listened to Casey, Mark, and Cathleen, talk about the game... and got nothing. What's the story? Where's the drive to play this game? Survival? I'm not interested in surviving, surviving is boring, surviving is what I do to get to my next objective, it's not a goal in and of itself. Shoot stuff? Plenty of games out there where I can do the same from solid IPs. Play online with your friends? Same deal. Maybe the situation will change from here to February once the full marketing campaign gets going, but for now this looks like a generic Destiny clone that removes many of the things that make BioWare BioWare.
Thirdly, EA/BioWare are carrying some baggage and it would be naive of them to expect people not to remember or care. Only last year, EA killed Visceral's Star Wars game, cancelled any and all DLC projects for Andromeda -placing the franchise on ice-, and let's not forget Battlefront II's MTX debacle. And we're not even considering the quality of these games, which have disappointed at least part of the fanbase. Some people will remain lukewarm after all of this. Is it fair to judge a game from a completely new IP on these terms? No, it isn't, but that's the reality of the situation. Is it disheartening? You bet your ass it is. It's certainly not fun when people strongly criticize something you've poured hours of your life into. So long as we don't confuse the product with the real, flesh and blood, people making it, criticism is not only welcome, it's also necessary to make the product better. It's up to EA/BioWare to decide what criticism is worth listening to.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2018 19:41:37 GMT
The Demo is going to be really important. Assuming there is a demo....
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 10, 2018 19:45:56 GMT
Assuming there is a demo.... There is a demo. Part of the Pre-Order download is VIP access to it. Looking again: "VIP access to pre-launch demos"Demos (plural)
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jun 10, 2018 19:52:39 GMT
A fandom as assholes in it? Unheard of.🙄
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2018 19:54:47 GMT
Assuming there is a demo.... There is a demo. Part of the Pre-Order download is VIP access to it. Looking again: "VIP access to pre-launch demos"Demos (plural) If you have to pre order it's not a demo is it? You're paying for a preview.
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jun 10, 2018 20:01:23 GMT
I think there are a couple of factors at play that we don't see as well. We don't know how the developers are targeted personally are like so that can always shine a more negative shine on a lot of things. I cannot remember the female writer, but when people say they are going to kill your children because you are such a bad parent I don't think I could look at the community in a positive light ever. The other thing is how the individual takes the comments, some people have a tougher skin then others and some others just don't want to be bothered either.
As for how toxic I view this place, I think it depends on the thread. There are some threads I think are overly toxic, but they are left to gather all the like minded posts it seems to keep the rest of the forum clear. As mentioned places like YouTube are the worst, but then the way comments are show emphasize the negativity too.
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