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Post by river82 on Jun 11, 2018 22:16:02 GMT
On the other side of things is what goes on at the BSN. This is what conversation looks like, you may not like it but this is what it looks like. We avoid an echo chamber effect like what tends to happen on platforms like Twitter and Reddit and demonstrably don't live to just bash Bioware like some other places. I can sorta understand a simple disinclination to engage with any space that isn't positive about years of work but if the alternative is some fawning, smiling-is-mandatory type space (and I have a hard time seeing an alternative if the current iteration of BSN is deemed too toxic) then I'm fine being considered toxic. In a perfect world it isn't the dynamic I'd pick for the relationship between devs and fans but if the options fall on a scale between Twitter/Reddit | BSN | YouTube/Codex and anything beyond the curated, self-policing echo chambers of Twitter and Reddit are considered toxic then meh. Completely agree, and if the Bioware devs choose to seclude themselves in their own echo chambers that really says a lot about them. It'll also lead to them being caught completely be surprise by, oh let's say the negative reaction to Andromeda and some dev friend of our hippophilic mod being surprised at the reaction to Anthem ...
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Post by samhain444 on Jun 11, 2018 22:26:07 GMT
LOL they keep making their games against their fans wishes, I mean, they ask for feedback and they get it but yet they don’t use it and make their games the EXACT opposite of what their fans want and then when their fans complains, they can’t seem to understand? They call us toxic? LOL again. They should start to actually LISTEN to us instead, maybe just maybe making a game based on the feedback received for once ( or since the “old days”) would turn things around for both them and us their loyal fans through many years who BUY their games which in the end results to them making money... No offense but I think MEA failed because they listened entirely too much to their fans...who I think are the issue, because what you want is not necessarily what I want, which is not what another wants. And in the attempt to placate everyone they end up satisfying no one (or very few anyways). If you asked ten people how Bio should prioritize their development resources you may very well get ten different answers. It must be a frustrating place to be. Glad I don't have their job. Yeah, I agree. I think BioWare devs/producers/writers just need to put their head's down and try to create what they consider the best, most entertaining content they can and not try to check all the fan-service check boxes anymore. It's honestly, what I think "Anthem" is - an idea that Casey Hudson had around 2012 that he wanted to bring into being. As much as I love the "Dragon Age" and "Mass Effect" series, they are essentially the same type of game as each other and there is only so far you can take the story. "Anthem" is their attempt at exploring new game design and concepts for themselves while producing the next "Dragon Age" in the mean time.
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Post by bshep on Jun 11, 2018 22:49:08 GMT
So we should forgive all the hatred, bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, death threats and etcetera just because some people are unable to understand that nothing can stays the same forever? Sorry no can do.
Those kinds of behaviour shouldn't be allowed neither in the real world or here in the virtual one.
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Post by simit on Jun 11, 2018 23:12:13 GMT
Majority, if not all, gaming forums i lurk in have got there toxic elements tbh
Been back playing abit of ESO an was reading there forum while E3 was on next thing i noticed was abit of a winded post by a current ESO player blaming ESO for no TES6 lol, basically ranting, then well TES6 got announced, needless to say i loled.
I mind the "old" BioWare i also mind playing pacman on a old black n white telly an having hours of fun on paperboy lol an i mind getting the PS1 then the pc an now the xBx, it been a amazing journey tbh in terms of overall gaming an BioWares games themselves, sigh i used to spend days in that nwn toolset, anyhow seeing there games grow been pretty nice an i for one am enjoying it, easily pleased an auld i guess
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Post by phoray on Jun 11, 2018 23:14:03 GMT
Fair point. Hrungr is a social media platform unto himself The way that man collates data is better than any social media platform.
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Post by phoray on Jun 11, 2018 23:35:12 GMT
This remark was caused by their disappointment in what they perceived was a strongly negative reaction to Anthem on this forum.
Ooops. I thought this was the Mass Effect and Dragon Age Fan Forum. I didn't know this was the "anything Bioware ever puts out" fan forum. Sarcasm aside, if I told my husband that I would like some oranges from the grocery store and he came back with a grapefruit, I'm going to be a bit "what the fuck."* Although I'm definitely in the "Maybe Anthem will have something to offer me" camp, I don't think it's unreasonable for people to have more vehement "what the fuck"s than I have within me at the moment for being offered a grapefruit when we've been adamant about how much we like oranges. People who like Grapefruit AND Oranges are going to react better. They were in the mood for Oranges, true, but grapefruits are good too. What relationship does and should a 'fan' gaming community have with its respective game studio? We have no relationship with the game studio? Wasn't it Gaider who's implied a couple times that his characters are his and shows disdains for any interpretation of the characters anyone else has? That sort of mentality mostly thinks we're just here to "Be Thankful", Arishok style What duty does a fan forum have to screen out any negative opinion (if any)? Considering we're the unofficial forum created from a merciless disbandment, I feel about as much loyalty to pleasing Bioware with my interactions here as the Templars were with the Chantry leading up to their choice to dissolve the Nevarran Accord. Which implies some animosity which I don't currently feel I have. I suppose it's a knee jerk reaction to someone implying my online interactions should follow any more stipulations than the Social Contract already does.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 23:35:39 GMT
BW do listen sometimes. One example is the heavily criticized Kai Leng fight. They listened to the constructive criticism and created the clone fight on the Citadel DLC.
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Post by natetrace on Jun 12, 2018 0:35:02 GMT
I see plenty of negativity, especially outside BioWare channels. I see a lot of fuck BioWare or SJW trash statements. Makes me wonder if it's EA killing them...or the anti BioWare crowd themselves. I don't think it's EA.
BioWare omits romance in Anthem and the anti BioWare folk complain they aren't the same they're trash. Of course Anthem isn't the type of game that needs romance, and that's ok. Mass Effect and Dragon Age can have that.
I think there is a difference between having a criticism and being a jackass. Lots of jackasses out there.
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Post by Steelcan on Jun 12, 2018 1:50:19 GMT
BW do listen sometimes. One example is the heavily criticized Kai Leng fight. They listened to the constructive criticism and created the clone fight on the Citadel DLC. And now they're endlessly trying to recapture those "Citadel moments" without putting in the leg work to make them memorable
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Post by abedsbrother on Jun 12, 2018 3:38:26 GMT
So we should forgive all the hatred, bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, death threats and etcetera just because some people are unable to understand that nothing can stays the same forever? Sorry no can do.
Those kinds of behaviour shouldn't be allowed neither in the real world or here in the virtual one. <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="6.399999999999977" style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 6.399999999999977px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_36810712" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="6.399999999999977" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 6.4px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_12964266" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="6.399999999999977" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 6.4px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 257px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_77762150" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="6.399999999999977" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 6.4px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 257px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_27731631" scrolling="no"></iframe> I didn't say that those sorts of behaviors should be allowed in the real or virtual world, did I? Not interested in a flame-war, but try actually considering the context the ENTIRE post provides, and not just the part you excerpt for straw-man purposes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 3:53:02 GMT
Echo chambers are bad and so is constant flaming. Gotta keep a balance and try not to shut yourself off completely from your fans. Forums in general will have a wide spectrum of people with different backgrounds, opinions and methods of deduction. The phrase "toxic community" being uttered for such a thing as a forum or any community to be honest is grounded in prejudice based on the worst of offenses. Gotta know where to separate the criticism and vitriol. My number one advice would be to not let people who offend you deeply be the one's you judge an entire community on. On the internet there's always a block button.
As far as Anthem, nearly all of that vitriol was based on Andromeda and the ME3 ending shitstorms with a little DA2 disappointment thrown in there. Most people I've played ME3 MP have given up on Bioware and see it on its last legs much like many other studios that were disintegrated under EA's umbrella. Others are hopeful (like me) but the truth is, that vitriol was earned. MEA was supported for only 6 months before having a dlc revoked and turned into a novel with a game that had a very shaky launch with a lot of aesthetics from the ME trilogy gone. People are entitled to their opinions regardless and you have to think about why they (the core fanbase and demographic for the games) feel that way.
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Jun 12, 2018 5:26:00 GMT
well, a negative opinion tends to stick more to someone's head than a positive opinion, And on the internet you will have plenty of more Negatives than positives, cuz' it IS the internet, ppl will say thing they usually don't say in a face to face fashion.
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Post by vhiran on Jun 12, 2018 7:20:39 GMT
People can rant and race all day. I'm an OG bioware fan since Baldurs Gate, and this game looks fun. Will preorder closer to the release date as long as it keeps looking fun.
Forums sometimes have good discourse, sometimes a cesspit. This one has gone off the deep end lately, but theres still hope.
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Post by Mir Aven on Jun 12, 2018 13:27:06 GMT
Sorry but for me that is not a demo, if i can not play a demo without pre ordering then there is no demo. It is my understanding that you can play the demo without preordering. Only selected few from those that subscribed to their newsletter will get the chance to play the game early. It sounds more like a temporary pre-launch access, probably to test their servers, than a demo so people can see if they like the game.
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Post by bshep on Jun 12, 2018 13:32:29 GMT
So we should forgive all the hatred, bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, death threats and etcetera just because some people are unable to understand that nothing can stays the same forever? Sorry no can do.
Those kinds of behaviour shouldn't be allowed neither in the real world or here in the virtual one. I didn't say that those sorts of behaviors should be allowed in the real or virtual world, did I? Not interested in a flame-war, but try actually considering the context the ENTIRE post provides, and not just the part you excerpt for straw-man purposes. Your whole post was a defense of how people are justified in being salty because they didn't ask Bioware to change (like Bioware ever needed their permission for starters), because of a sense of nostalgia they had with past BW games.
But you seem to forget that the same people who were/are salty were/are the same ones doing all the trolling and doing hatred speech both on the Old BSN and here. I remember the ammount of misogyny that happened at the Old BSN when bioware posted a ME3 trailer using FemShep, from the way some reacted you would think Bioware killed their loved ones. And the same people were also the ones spreading hatred about DA2 before and later doing death threats against devs because they were salty with ME3 even after the EC.
My point still stands, they shouldn't be allowed to post shit left and right just because they can't or won't move on from their idea that Bioware should only make games as they want it.
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Post by abedsbrother on Jun 12, 2018 14:13:14 GMT
I didn't say that those sorts of behaviors should be allowed in the real or virtual world, did I? Not interested in a flame-war, but try actually considering the context the ENTIRE post provides, and not just the part you excerpt for straw-man purposes. Your whole post was a defense of how people are justified in being salty because they didn't ask Bioware to change (like Bioware ever needed their permission for starters), because of a sense of nostalgia they had with past BW games.
But you seem to forget that the same people who were/are salty were/are the same ones doing all the trolling and doing hatred speech both on the Old BSN and here. I remember the ammount of misogyny that happened at the Old BSN when bioware posted a ME3 trailer using FemShep, from the way some reacted you would think Bioware killed their loved ones. And the same people were also the ones spreading hatred about DA2 before and later doing death threats against devs because they were salty with ME3 even after the EC.
My point still stands, they shouldn't be allowed to post shit left and right just because they can't or won't move on from their idea that Bioware should only make games as they want it. So... anyone who defends the collective members of the new BSN is defending misogyny, racism etc.? lol "you seem to forget that the same people who were/are salty were/are the same ones doing all the trolling and doing hatred speech both on the Old BSN and here." Every forum has its blowhards. To assume that the new BSN is somehow unique in having members who post phobic & misogynistic (both descriptors subject to a variety of definitions in today's socio-political climate) messages & threads, and that these people equate to EVERYONE who bemoans BioWare's "decline," is beknighted at best. (Yes, I was a member of the old BSN as well.) "My point still stands, they shouldn't be allowed to post shit left and right just because they can't or won't move on from their idea that Bioware should only make games as they want." Your point would have stood without selectively quoting my post and removing the identifiers so users could not see who you were quoting, and so that I would not receive notification that I was quoted. Luckily for me, I am periodically checking this thread. I and everyone here was asked what we thought of a nameless dev categorizing these forums as filled with "trolls and zealots." If you have a response to that post that doesn't involve attacking other forum members, I'd love to hear it.
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Post by bshep on Jun 12, 2018 14:46:41 GMT
So... anyone who defends the collective members of the new BSN is defending misogyny, racism etc.? lol Every forum has its blowhards. To assume that the new BSN is somehow unique in having members who post phobic & misogynistic (both descriptors subject to a variety of definitions in today's socio-political climate) messages & threads, and that these people equate to EVERYONE who bemoans BioWare's "decline," is beknighted at best. (Yes, I was a member of the old BSN as well.) I didn't assume that. I am talking about the ones who can't act in a civilized manner, which you seem to be defending from your previous post. There is a big difference between being a critic and saying you disliked a game and trolling by calling for someone's death because of said game or being so salty about a trailer that you lash out at all women. While i don't remember you, if you were indeed there then you also know quite a few of those users are here too. So what is wrong with calling them out for what they are? Your point would have stood without selectively quoting my post and removing the identifiers so users could not see who you were quoting, and so that I would not receive notification that I was quoted. Luckily for me, I am periodically checking this thread. I did because it is easier to just copy text with the pen when posting from my tablet.
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Post by xassantex on Jun 12, 2018 15:26:48 GMT
devs,... full of toxic comments about fans who spend up to $100 for their games ?
well, who cares what devs think ( toxicity from fans won't make them quit their jobs,though lousy bosses might) .
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Post by abedsbrother on Jun 12, 2018 15:35:45 GMT
So... anyone who defends the collective members of the new BSN is defending misogyny, racism etc.? lol Every forum has its blowhards. To assume that the new BSN is somehow unique in having members who post phobic & misogynistic (both descriptors subject to a variety of definitions in today's socio-political climate) messages & threads, and that these people equate to EVERYONE who bemoans BioWare's "decline," is beknighted at best. (Yes, I was a member of the old BSN as well.) I didn't assume that. I am talking about the ones who can't act in a civilized manner, which you seem to be defending from your previous post. There is a big difference between being a critic and saying you disliked a game and trolling by calling for someone's death because of said game or being so salty about a trailer that you lash out at all women. While i don't remember you, if you were indeed there then you also know quite a few of those users are here too. So what is wrong with calling them out for what they are? "I didn't assume that." Look back at your post. Your post does. "I am talking about the ones who can't act in a civilized manner," Uncivilized meaning rude, or simply posting an opinion you disagree with? "which you seem to be defending from your previous post." It was my assumption that everyone is familiar with forums and the concept of resident trolls (my mistake), which left "zealots" as the remaining pejorative. "There is a big difference between being a critic and saying you disliked a game and trolling by calling for someone's death because of said game or being so salty about a trailer that you lash out at all women." No one is arguing this. "While i don't remember you," I generally kept a low profile. I was one of the early members of this forum, but I prefer likes to posts most of the time. "if you were indeed there then you also know quite a few of those users are here too." Like you and me - and plenty of others. "So what is wrong with calling them out for what they are?" See, your previous sentence is about "users from the old BSN are here on the new BSN." Then you say, "So what is wrong with calling them out for what they are?", implying that ALL the users from the old BSN who migrated to the new BSN are somehow contemptible. I'm certain that's not what you mean at all, but that's what it looks like. I know of few truly horrible people who migrated here. Very different opinions, yes. Some that are offensive to me but not to others, sure. If their opinions were as collectively offensive as you imply, they would have been banned by now (and some have been). We're fortunate to have good mods. There are a lot of good people here who love BioWare and their games. A lot of the angst that I see on these forums comes from that - whether it's someone clinging to nonsensical head-canon, or complaining about what they think is progressive political propaganda in their games - and the people on the other side who don't hesitate to post pages and pages of forum replies explaining how wrong those users are. It's points of view. It's what I love about forums in general. As for threatening harm to others because of disappointment, that is something immature people do. I think it's often lost on the resident forum warriors that games are frequently a gateway to life for young people; maybe sometimes it's not the wisest thing to overly belabor the writing quality of a character, because that character is helping someone find their own truth. This is sometimes lost on good people who are too busy quantifying their own game experience to bother understanding others. Does that make them trolls and zealots? Of course not. Narcissistic, sure, but a discussion of that could lead into the nebulous concept of what is a "gamer," which would be off-topic for this thread. (Or perhaps not.) Call out the bad behavior; but don't denigrate an entire group as "trolls and zealots" for the actions of a few freaks.
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Jun 12, 2018 16:04:05 GMT
Well, in my opinion there are many reasons - one of them is that Anthem is not the game they been waiting for. Simple as that. When you think BioWare - you think about amazing single player RPG. It was like that for years. Personally i don't play much MMO or MP games - and i really don't like all those Mech's - way too many movies like transformers/pacific rim or games like titanfall/destiny. Feeling bored with that kind of stuff completely. Playing SWTOR is enough for me. Other thing is, many people are still very disappointed how they been treated after Mass Effect Andromeda failure - no DLC, no sequel, no explanation to so many open plots - they feel cheated and let's be fair - except a small group of people NO ONE CARE about some book which will be released at some point - we are talking about gamers, so c'mon.
I watched Anthem trailer and some other things from E3, and to be completely honest with you guys - i am not critisising Anthem, i just do not have any interest on this game at all. Not my cup of tea. Sorry BioWare, sorry devs, but i will pass on this one. I will be very happy to see another BioWare Single Player Story Game like Dragon Age 4.
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Post by fchopin on Jun 12, 2018 16:31:39 GMT
I will be very happy to see another BioWare Single Player Story Game like Dragon Age 4. You are assuming that Dragon Age 4 will be single player!.......
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 12, 2018 16:51:55 GMT
When you think BioWare - you think about amazing single player RPG. It was like that for years. Personally i don't play much MMO or MP games - and i really don't like all those Mech's BioWare returns to its roots (Shattered Steel, 1996) Though I can certainly respect that not every player likes every game a studio makes, if the game format alters. Roll on Dragon Age 4, and judging by Casey's comments, more Mass Effect in the long term.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Jun 12, 2018 17:23:22 GMT
I will be very happy to see another BioWare Single Player Story Game like Dragon Age 4. You are assuming that Dragon Age 4 will be single player!....... Well, if it will be another SP/MP/MMO mix, i will pass too... there are other games .
Happy to wait for Cyberpunk 100% SP experience, not such much about Fallout 76 Online - and still got Divinity 2 and Pillars 2 to finish !
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Jun 12, 2018 17:38:37 GMT
Personally, I have never been interested in Anthem. I liked ME 3 MP, and still play it, but BioWare is not a multiplayer developer, in my mind. I have seen three efforts - ME 3, DAI, and ME:A. ME 3 was the only one I really considered good, so I haven't been paying attention, and have no awareness of what the response has been in this forum, specifically.
That having been said, describing a forum as "Trolls and zealots," is definitely indicative of some the broader problems with where the video game industry is right now. There is a growing disconnect between some creators and their communities wherein one side or the other is treated as the "enemy," and focus is made almost exclusively on surface negative aspects that can be easily used to dismiss.
I would imagine that in forums, there is a lot of nitpicking over existing information that is of little consequence, which is what I would expect to be happening at this point in the marketing cycle. The reaction that I'm seeing from the internet, in general, seems to be mixed to positive. As a developer, especially one whose relationship with their customers has been in a rocky place for a few years, I would see that as an overall positive sign at this stage.
Given their history as a story-focused single player developer, it would be a surprise if Anthem was receiving mostly positive response from the community itself. I have to assume that BioWare expected and planned for marketing the game outside the community channels. As far as I can tell, that is going well.
If it were me, in this situation, I'd largely ignore the forum, since there is no intent to return to it as a form of communication. Expecting the community create some perfect and compassionate world of forum communication that was specifically eschewed in an antagonistic way by BioWare itself is unrealistic.
The few don't speak for the many, obviously, whether it's David Gaider or frequent forum posters. I'm sure there will always be those developers who will see and describe the community as toxic, as there will be no shortage of internet denizens who will post hostile messages and take video games personally. I'm confident that reasonable people can see past that, in the long run.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 12, 2018 17:49:59 GMT
I'm reminded of where we were in the summer of 2014.
Early Dragon Age Inquisition trailers were dropping to broadly positive reactions against a backdrop of comments along the line of 'what color ending will this game have?'
As the year progressed and more news emerged, the complaints lessened and the game launched to a popular response.
Today I'm still seeing a lot of negativity fuelled by MEA and BFII. I think that will fade somewhat if information releases continue to be solid and interesting.
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