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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 12, 2018 19:07:55 GMT
Well, I'll give them that the idea to turn the usual approach to MMOs around is not a bad one. I mean, usually, you'd meet everyone in the hub areas and than go into instances to do story related content. The idea to make the hub the instance where you experience story and have the coop part on the missions is interesting and I don't think it's been tried in this way yet (at least not in a big game).
However, I do wonder if it'll work out in the end. The main problem I see is that the story (especially if - as they said - there will be concequences to decisions and such) will by definition be very confined to the hub. This is bound to restrict the flow and the pacing of the story. I'm afraid it is very likely to make it feel very artificial and less dynamic. The player will always know where and when things can happen and when and where they can't (because it's a coop area). That was the advantage of pure SP games. Anywhere and everywhere story could happen. Thake something like the Grissom Academy mission on ME3, where you fight your way through Cerberus troop and suddenly, you happen to meet Jack there and that starts some dialogue, etc. Those situation would basically be prohibited in Anthem. On the other hand, I am not entirely sure why BioWare is trying to push this hard to bring the MP and SP experience together. On the one hand, they say that everyone should feel like the hero with a personal story, on the other hand, they want people to experience the shared world. The problem I see is that everyone in that shared world will still experience the same story and in effect be the same hero as everyone else. To me, that would never quite feel like it fits together.
On top of that, I don't really see the two target audiences wanting to be in the same game. As a story-driven player, I have absolutely no use for the coop element and I am sure it would just reduce my enjoyment as I try to go through the content of the game as an SP experience because the mechanics I want out of it are bound to be different (no grind, decent enemy strength, etc.) Unless they do an exceptional job of balancing and scaling things depending on player numbers, I don't see this working out and from the videos we've seen so far, it doesn't even look like they necessarily want to do that (at least that's my interpretation of sentences like "yes, you could do it alone if you absolutely want to but it's better with your friends). On the other hand, what use is an elaborate story line to players that are mainly there for the coop? It just introduces problems for them (wait until people went through their content in the hub, players that may want to team up but are in different parts of the story (how to prevent spoilers, etc.), who and how many players can come on certain missions and so on and so on). Who knows, maybe BioWare will find unexpected, innovative and truly brilliant solutions to these problems but from the material we saw so far, I don't get the impression and I have the fear that this game will not entirely satisfy either clientele. IMO, maybe it would have been better if they really just went for the coop experience in this game (in which case one could ask the question "why did BW have to do this?" bu ok) and then went back for story driven experiences in the next SP game. I for one am not convinced this hybred approach will work that well.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jun 12, 2018 19:24:50 GMT
Trying to fit story into a game medium that is not...story friendly is something they already did in The Old Republic, for what it's worth...to mixed effect. The multiplayer content in that has "story" in the sense that players were provided a context for the beginning and the end of the various missions, and sometimes there's a "choice" that changed whether a character is killed in a cutscene or just conveniently doesn't show up again because they were maybe dead in some people's "story".
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 12, 2018 20:14:22 GMT
TOR is not a bad approach to the problem but even there, I felt that in the story heavy beginning, people were much more just doing stuff on their own, while the MMO part was more happening in the endgame. So even there, content was somewhat devided. Here now, I get the impression BW wants to "encourage" more mixup and that's where I am skeptical. BTW, I think even the E3 gameplay demo already illustrates this. Because I was wondering: Who is this dude Owen in the demo? He must be a player because that girl is just talking to him but he sounds almost like some A.I./NPC giving lot's of story context and hints. So who/what was that? If BW developed voice comprehension on that level for NPCs than I'll tip my hat in respect. But if it was another player who very conveniently "role played" for this demo - something that'll basically never happen in real life - than this already showcases the missing component in the open world. How to pace a story properly without a guiding hand and some exposition? How to unobtrusively introduce those things without diminishing the freedom needed for a good MP experience? 'Cause there won't be an Owen around for everyone...
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Post by Lazarillo on Jun 12, 2018 20:30:31 GMT
TOR is not a bad approach to the problem but even there, I felt that in the story heavy beginning, people were much more just doing stuff on their own, while the MMO part was more happening in the endgame. So even there, content was somewhat devided. That's why I tried to specifically talk about the story of the multiplayer content in TOR. I guess the point I'm trying to make is "if you're looking into how Anthem is going to handle a ME/DA sort of story, you've probably misconceived the kind of story Anthem is going to have".
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 12, 2018 20:34:15 GMT
I’m not 100% convinced they aren’t trying to snap at a juicy piece that may be more illusion than reality. Bioware may tell story beats but is that what the destiny crowd is craving & is their combat what they’ll be craving. Meanwhile doesn’t feel likewhat they are creating is necessarily going to bring as much of their sp player demographic to the party.
Owen is an npc, something called a cipher I believe. Thought he was incredibly annoying if he’s who I remember.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 12, 2018 20:48:50 GMT
Owen is an npc, something called a cipher I believe. Thought he was incredibly annoying if he’s who I remember. Really? So Owen is kinda Anthem's SAM? Then why does it sound like that girl who is really a player is speaking to him? Maybe I have to watch the footage again and pay closer attention but I got the impression they were talking and he was answering her questions. But maybe I got it wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 20:53:17 GMT
Owen is an npc, something called a cipher I believe. Thought he was incredibly annoying if he’s who I remember. Really? So Owen is kinda Anthem's SAM? Then why does it sound like that girl who is really a player is speaking to him? Maybe I have to watch the footage again and pay closer attention but I got the impression they were talking and he was answering her questions. But maybe I got it wrong. The girl was the main protag of the demo as your Freelancer is voiced and does speak to NPC's. It's really not explained well in what we saw.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 12, 2018 21:00:34 GMT
Really? So Owen is kinda Anthem's SAM? Then why does it sound like that girl who is really a player is speaking to him? Maybe I have to watch the footage again and pay closer attention but I got the impression they were talking and he was answering her questions. But maybe I got it wrong. The girl was the main protag of the demo as your Freelancer is voiced and does speak to NPC's. It's really not explained well in what we saw. Oh dam, now I definitely have to watch the footage again. Thanks for clearing that up. That's gonna be weird though, if you play in coop and may talk to your compatriots but also listen to your suit and that SAM dude? Hm, but again, it's a pretty unique and interesting approach, that's for sure.
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Post by Wulfram on Jun 12, 2018 22:23:22 GMT
The game seems like it'd make more sense if they'd just gone for a straightforward linear but well written story and didn't bother trying to do the Bioware thing
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 12, 2018 22:54:20 GMT
The game seems like it'd make more sense if they'd just gone for a straightforward linear but well written story and didn't bother trying to do the Bioware thing BioWare things, is kinda what BioWare does...
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 13, 2018 2:42:45 GMT
This is bound to restrict the flow and the pacing of the story. I'm afraid it is very likely to make it feel very artificial and less dynamic. The player will always know where and when things can happen and when and where they can't (because it's a coop area). That was the advantage of pure SP games. While I agree that the Fort/Strider "story zones" might be restrictive with respect to interleaving combat and story cutscenes, what you state in theory hasn't really been true in practice for Bioware games for a while now. Consider DAI. The free roam maps and the story maps were separate. It wasn't so much that story was confined, but rather excluded, from the free roam maps. Same could be said for MEA. We also don't know how big Fort Tarsis is. If they're smart, they'll make it really big, and section off parts of it for future expansions. Plus, they might add new Forts in the future, which they hinted at with comments like "places like Fort Tarsis" or words to that effect. If the Fort space is equal or greater than the sum total story space of DAI or MEA, exclusive of interleaved combat, it shouldn't be a problem. It's a good point. That sort of scripted encounter is probably off the table. But that type of encounter could be replaced with something that's similar. For example, if entering/exiting the Strider is seamless, or if it can show up at a spot you're at to deliver an NPC to talk to, that's pretty close. Plus, there's nothing technically to stop them from having "story zone" combat. It wouldn't necessarily be Javelin combat -- heck, a bar brawl is more fun with chairs and broken glass anyway -- but it could be scripted and you could get control of your character (albeit in first person!) and do some brawling. That would be a nice surprise, actually. But, probably costs too much to implement. Because they think there's more money in an MP-first game? Whatever they may say about the origin of the concept, that's got to be the bottom line, literally.
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Post by isaidlunch on Jun 13, 2018 4:57:34 GMT
SWTOR is what happens when you prioritize story over gameplay in an online game. I doubt they'll make the same mistake again.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 13:15:29 GMT
SWTOR is what happens when you prioritize story over gameplay in an online game. I doubt they'll make the same mistake again. For all it's faults the story is the only reason I still play SWTOR. And I'm not the only one. Keep your negativity to yourself thank you very much
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Post by rras1994 on Jun 13, 2018 13:21:43 GMT
SWTOR is what happens when you prioritize story over gameplay in an online game. I doubt they'll make the same mistake again. That "mistake" has went past the $1 billion revenue mark. It's a financially sucessful game. I doubt BioWare or EA have a problem with that.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 13, 2018 14:56:06 GMT
It's gonna be hard to immerse yourself in a story while listening to a 13 year old insult your mother through the headphones...
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 13, 2018 14:59:26 GMT
It's gonna be hard to immerse yourself in a story while listening to a 13 year old insult your mother through the headphones... And that would happen how? No story in the shared world. Well, no scripted story anyway. Kind of like saying it's going to be hard to immerse yourself in the story while wandering around The Fallow Mire in DAI, with a 13 year old insulting your mother in your headphones.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 13, 2018 15:02:46 GMT
It's gonna be hard to immerse yourself in a story while listening to a 13 year old insult your mother through the headphones... And that would happen how? No story in the shared world. Well, no scripted story anyway. Kind of like saying it's going to be hard to immerse yourself in the story while wandering around The Fallow Mire in DAI, with a 13 year old insulting your mother in your headphones. Are you trying to say that you can play the entire storyline without entering the shared world?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 13, 2018 15:12:02 GMT
And that would happen how? No story in the shared world. Well, no scripted story anyway. Kind of like saying it's going to be hard to immerse yourself in the story while wandering around The Fallow Mire in DAI, with a 13 year old insulting your mother in your headphones. Are you trying to say that you can play the entire storyline without entering the shared world? No, but I'm saying the story bits, cutscenes and dialogue and such, are not in the shared world. Presumably it will be like doing some story bits in Skyhold, then you dick around in the Fallow Mire for a bit (except without scripted companion banter -- such as it was in DAI when you could get it, and in any case barely icing on the cake storywise) and kill monsters/get treasure, maybe fight a boss battle or two, then go back to Skyhold for more story. And, it appears you can control who can join your server when you are in the shared world. If you want to close off the Fallow Mire to everyone except yourself, you can do so. No 13 year olds.
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∯ Interjector in Chief
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 13, 2018 15:13:56 GMT
And that would happen how? No story in the shared world. Well, no scripted story anyway. Kind of like saying it's going to be hard to immerse yourself in the story while wandering around The Fallow Mire in DAI, with a 13 year old insulting your mother in your headphones. Are you trying to say that you can play the entire storyline without entering the shared world? Not in the hub, where the story is mostly based, no. You will also likely be able to turn off chat, so such a thing wouldn’t be a problem even when matchmaking with randoms.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 13, 2018 15:19:52 GMT
Are you trying to say that you can play the entire storyline without entering the shared world? Not in the hub, where the story is mostly based, no. You will also likely be able to turn off chat, so such a thing wouldn’t be a problem even when matchmaking with randoms. The hub may be where most of the dialogue is based, but story is everywhere. If taking me out of the hub takes me out of the story, then the game is a complete waste of time. And I imagine turning off chat pretty much screws the point of cooperative play as well.
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 13, 2018 15:22:17 GMT
Not in the hub, where the story is mostly based, no. You will also likely be able to turn off chat, so such a thing wouldn’t be a problem even when matchmaking with randoms. The hub may be where most of the dialogue is based, but story is everywhere. If taking me out of the hub takes me out of the story, then the game is a complete waste of time. And I imagine turning off chat pretty much screws the point of cooperative play as well. Not at all, I never have chat on when I play Destiny. I only turn it on every few months to try out the raid, otherwise it’s completely unnecessary for Co-Op. How would leaving he hub take you out of the story?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 13, 2018 15:26:36 GMT
Not in the hub, where the story is mostly based, no. You will also likely be able to turn off chat, so such a thing wouldn’t be a problem even when matchmaking with randoms. The hub may be where most of the dialogue is based, but story is everywhere. If taking me out of the hub takes me out of the story, then the game is a complete waste of time. So, again, you're saying DAI was a complete waste of time? Because there was no story in the Fallow Mire, The Hissing Wastes, The Exalted Plains, etc. Those maps "took you out of the story".
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Post by Iakus on Jun 13, 2018 15:29:11 GMT
The hub may be where most of the dialogue is based, but story is everywhere. If taking me out of the hub takes me out of the story, then the game is a complete waste of time. And I imagine turning off chat pretty much screws the point of cooperative play as well. Not at all, I never have chat on when I play Destiny. I only turn it on every few months to try out the raid, otherwise it’s completely unnecessary for Co-Op. How would leaving he hub take you out of the story? By seeing some idiot in hot pink armor teabagging whatever alien they just downed? People camping spawn points? People standing around in the jungle dancing, emoting, or otherwise screwing around? And that's assuming various forms of griefing are made too difficult to bother with.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 13, 2018 15:34:01 GMT
Not at all, I never have chat on when I play Destiny. I only turn it on every few months to try out the raid, otherwise it’s completely unnecessary for Co-Op. How would leaving he hub take you out of the story? By seeing some idiot in hot pink armor teabagging whatever alien they just downed? People camping spawn points? People standing around in the jungle dancing, emoting, or otherwise screwing around? And that's assuming various forms of griefing are made too difficult to bother with. You didn't read my previous reply. You control who joins your shared world. You don't want randoms? Disable public joins. Make it invitation only.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 13, 2018 15:37:33 GMT
The hub may be where most of the dialogue is based, but story is everywhere. If taking me out of the hub takes me out of the story, then the game is a complete waste of time. So, again, you're saying DAI was a complete waste of time? Because there was no story in the Fallow Mire, The Hissing Wastes, The Exalted Plains, etc. Those maps "took you out of the story". Yes, there was story in those places. They weren't part of the MAIN storyline, but you were in those places for a reason.
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