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Post by fylimar on Dec 11, 2019 22:17:03 GMT
I agree about this thread going in circles (no pun intended ... I guess )
I do likeGreagoir in origins, but siding with him would mean to kill the whole circle, including the kids, so I always try to find Irving (and so far succeeded of course), so yeah, apart from DAI, it is really hard to side with the templars, so I guess, DAI is an improvement? I wish, DA2 would have given us the option to either stay neutral or side with the templars, that don't agree with Meredith - there seemed to be a lot of them, but sadly the choice was Meredith or Orsino.
I don't think so. Meredith or the mages. Orsino doesn't matter, never mattered, a senior slave no more, sadly. We can ignore him, hate him or understand him, and still protect the mages, no matter if we see the others, but we can't ignore Meredith's and her madness and tyranny and crimes. The others don't responsibile of Orsino's mistake/sin, they don't deserve to die for them, but at the moment Meredith's the Templars. And the ruler of the city. Sorry, but I'm disagree. The face of one side objectively is Meredith, the other is Orsino. What you or I interprete into it is entirely subjective.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 11, 2019 22:18:50 GMT
seriously? this thread is starting to make me think about some dialogue between Hawke and Varric during Sebastian's Act 3 quest Hawke: mage this, templar that...isn't there anywhere they aren't talking about this? Varric: no, and believe me, I've checked...even the rats in Darktown are following this mess
I mean, how hard is it for you people to stop making threads like these stop spiraling out of control? Because this tug-o-war has been going on and on and on, for at least the last 5 to 6 pages...if not more
can we please get back to being civil? That'd be great...thanks
--
As for the thread at hand (what it's actually about)
I've never sided with Meredith before, and I'm not sure if I ever plan on doing so, I don't even have the two associated achievements yet (and probably never will) I might get around to a pro-templar playthrough at some point...oh who am I kidding, I'll probably never get there
let's face it, in each game (aside from Inquisition) Templars are portrayed as the bad guys and the mages the ones you should help and feel sorry for. and the fact we only ever see a handful of good templars compared to the amount of mages that are "good" doesn't help either.
even the Bioware default in the Keep has the three protagonists side with the mages so far.
but the fact remains that a mage regardless of setting has more power in their pinky then a guy with a sword could ever achieve with years of training and experience
so yeah, I want to side with the Templars, but they need to give me a good reason to do so...I've sided with them twice in Inquisition, and I probably would do it more if the Envy demon didn't scare the piss out of me
I'm aware that Tevinter has no actual templars, but just once...just once I want one of my protagonists to go "let's side with the guys in the metal suits and screw the magic users"
I agree about this thread going in circles (no pun intended ... I guess )
I do likeGreagoir in origins, but siding with him would mean to kill the whole circle, including the kids, so I always try to find Irving (and so far succeeded of course), so yeah, apart from DAI, it is really hard to side with the templars, so I guess, DAI is an improvement? I wish, DA2 would have given us the option to either stay neutral or side with the templars, that don't agree with Meredith - there seemed to be a lot of them, but sadly the choice was Meredith or Orsino.
Yeah, having a third more neutral option for DA2 (and DAI) would have been great. With DA2, on one side you have mages that are innocent of the crime they are being accused of being targeted and on the other you have Templars who don't know the truth and only told the Circle did it so are acting under that false pretense to defend their comrades and avenge those that were killed. On both parties, the majority of them aren't at fault but only dragged into this by the actions of some. That's one of many reasons I'm glad Patrick Weekes replaced David Gaider. Gaider loved using binary choices, while Weekes likes to have more options in conflicts like we saw with the Geth-Quarian situation in ME3 or the Orlesian Civil War in DAI.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2019 22:23:01 GMT
I don't think so. Meredith or the mages. Orsino doesn't matter, never mattered, a senior slave no more, sadly. We can ignore him, hate him or understand him, and still protect the mages, no matter if we see the others, but we can't ignore Meredith's and her madness and tyranny and crimes. The others don't responsibile of Orsino's mistake/sin, they don't deserve to die for them, but at the moment Meredith's the Templars. And the ruler of the city. Sorry, but I'm disagree. The face of one side objectively is Meredith, the other is Orsino. What you or I interprete into it is entirely subjective. Yes, that was the intention. But that false. Nothing depends on Orsino, but everything on Meredith.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2019 22:26:20 GMT
I agree about this thread going in circles (no pun intended ... I guess )
I do likeGreagoir in origins, but siding with him would mean to kill the whole circle, including the kids, so I always try to find Irving (and so far succeeded of course), so yeah, apart from DAI, it is really hard to side with the templars, so I guess, DAI is an improvement? I wish, DA2 would have given us the option to either stay neutral or side with the templars, that don't agree with Meredith - there seemed to be a lot of them, but sadly the choice was Meredith or Orsino.
Yeah, having a third more neutral option for DA2 (and DAI) would have been great. With DA2, on one side you have mages that are innocent of the crime they are being accused of being targeted and on the other you have Templars who don't know the truth and only told the Circle did it so are acting under that false pretense to defend their comrades and avenge those that were killed. On both parties, the majority of them aren't at fault but only dragged into this by the actions of some. That's one of many reasons I'm glad Patrick Weekes replaced David Gaider. Gaider loved using binary choices, while Weekes likes to have more options in conflicts like we saw with the Geth-Quarian situation in ME3 or the Orlesian Civil War in DAI. In this case, the neutrality would cause the Annulment, and Meredith's regime. Noble rebellion. Civil war. Neutrality isn't mean peace, but can cause war.
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Post by fylimar on Dec 11, 2019 22:35:38 GMT
Sorry, but I'm disagree. The face of one side objectively is Meredith, the other is Orsino. What you or I interprete into it is entirely subjective. Yes, that was the intention. But that false. Nothing depends on Orsino, but everything on Meredith. Cati, step down. I have only listed the two options you objectively have at the end of DA 2, nothing more, OK? Nothing more, since I'm not interested in entering this discussion. I was only agreeing with Lady, that the arguments went in circles (still no pun) for a while now.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 11, 2019 22:36:20 GMT
sageoflife Two questions. 1. Where is it said that Elthina was Meredith’s direct superior. From everything I’ve read that isn’t the case since the Chantry and Templars are an alliance. Meredith’s direct superiors were the head Templars and Seekers. 2. Where is it said that what you are saying about stopping any coverup was a/the motivation Anders had to commit his mass murder? If that was part of it he got very lucky since Meredith could have succeeded and told any story she wanted. Not saying you are wrong with these, but it’s been a while since I played DA2 and I don’t recall those. 1: That's the Chantry hierarchy as repeatedly stated in the codex. Templars answer directly to the local Grand Cleric. In smaller Chantries like Lothering they answer to the Revered Mother. It would simply be too impractical for the Templars to need to take all of their orders directly from the Divine. Plus it was Elthina who instated Meredith as Knight-Commander in the first place. 2: I admit that I am reading between the lines when it comes to Anders's reasoning, but let's look at the available facts. Meredith was chomping at the bit to Annul the Gallows even before Anders went with his nuclear option. Karras outright says that Meredith had gone over Elthina's head and directly petitioned Justinia for the Right. We can debate what Justinia's answer would have been, but that's because we have information that Anders did not, and Meredith was so unhinged by that point that I'm not sure Justinia's answer would have mattered. Karras is talking pretty openly about it, so the Templars don't appear to be attempting to keep this a secret. From this we can infer that Anders heard about it during one of his trips to the Gallows with Hawke. Of course, Karras is barely a step below Alrik, so it's understandable that a lot of players wouldn't let him live that long. If Meredith had gotten permission, or lied about getting permission which I wouldn't put past her, then the world would only have the official story of an uncontrollable demon-infestation and no one would have known that it was because she was a crazy woman. If someone knows ahead of time about the Annulment it doesn't take knowing the truth about the Annulment of the Antiva City Circle to see where things are heading. After the bomb goes off, Anders says, "the world needs to see that the Circle is no solution." He also says immediately prior, "the Circle has failed us, Orsino. Even you should be able to see that." These two lines taken together indicate that Anders is referring to the argument that the Circle exists to protect mages. He no-doubt heard that argument a lot in his youth considering that the Loyalists are the second largest fraternity in Kinloch Hold and closely allied with the dominant Aequitarians. Blowing up a Chantry doesn't do anything to show mages that the Circle won't protect them. In illegal Annulment in response to a crime committed by an apostate, which the apostate in question openly takes responsibility for, is another matter. You and I have already agreed that things would have gone very differently if Meredith had just executed Anders and let the Gallows live. It's true that Anders's plan did have a luck component in that Meredith wouldn't just kill every last mage anyway. However, if Meredith had been able to initiate the Annulment the way that she wanted the mages would have been blindsided and it's pretty much guaranteed that there would be no survivors. By timing it when he did, Anders greatly increased the chance that at least one mage would be able to escape to spread word to the other Circles. From a purely logical standpoint, Anders's plan was a better alternative than letting everything happen on Meredith's terms. One last note, which I admit is pure Wild Mass Guessing on my part. I think Anders knew the truth about what happened to the Antiva City Circle. I find it very unlikely that Solas is the only mage in thousands of years to figure out that spirits can tell him about historical events. The flavor text for the Spirit Healer specialization states that they are watched more closely because their interactions with benign spirits greatly increases their risk of possession. This is the official reason, but how often is the official reason the only reason? I think it is very likely that an unofficial reason for this extra scrutiny is that Spirit Healers have a tendency to learn things that the Chantry would rather keep hidden. I think that Anders could have learned the truth about the Antiva City Circle either from one of the spirits he communed with as part of his training, or from Justice when they fused. Ah, I see. It's under the Templar Hierarchy entry. I was looking at the Chantry hierarchy one and all it says is: "Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. Each grand cleric presides over numerous chantries and represents the highest religious authority for their region. They travel to Val Royeaux when the College of Clerics convenes, but otherwise remain where they are assigned. All grand clerics are addressed as 'Your Grace.'" Thank you. As for Anders knowing about the illegal Right in Antiva, I think you are reading too much into that for a very simple reason : That wasn't a thing in the lore until DAI so how would that be a motive for Anders when that event didn't exist yet. But for the sake of discussiuon, let's ignore that meta and assume it was always there. Regarding Kallas talking openly about it, I don't really know how reliable that is as a source of how open the Templars were about it since he is the only one who mentions it. If he is dead, no other Templar talks about it including Meredith until Ander's attack iirc. I imagine it might have been just rumors to the Templars, hence why Karras is the only one to speak openly about it since his personality is one of trusting rumors as fact and not caring about discretion. Agreed about Meredith. She would have told a story about how she discovered that the Circle was ful of blood mages, and in her state it wouldn't even seem like a lie to her. (The irony is her paranoia wasn't even that wrong, since sure enough there were many blood mages including the First Enchanter) As for Anders's lines, eh I think that's too subjective to really say. When I heard those lines, while yes I agree that he is saying that about that argument to Orsino the rest sems to just go with his "I will not accept any form of compromise, so I will remove any chance of it" mindset. So he is making it so the world, mainly the other Circles, see that the only option is revolution thus the things currently aren't solutions. As you said, we agreed that things would have been different if Meredith just dealt with Anders. But as I've said before, that was why Anders attacked the Chantry. By committing mass murder, including Elthinia who was the only one keeping Meredith at bay, and knowing her paranoia his attack let her off the leash and able to lash out. The last bit you admit is just guesswork, so I can't really debate it.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2019 22:41:45 GMT
Yes, that was the intention. But that false. Nothing depends on Orsino, but everything on Meredith. Cati, step down. I have only listed the two options you objectively have at the end of DA 2, nothing more, OK? Nothing more, since I'm not interested in entering this discussion. I was only agreeing with Lady, that the arguments went in circles (still no pun) for a while now. Sorry, i'm terrible.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 11, 2019 22:43:17 GMT
Yeah, having a third more neutral option for DA2 (and DAI) would have been great. With DA2, on one side you have mages that are innocent of the crime they are being accused of being targeted and on the other you have Templars who don't know the truth and only told the Circle did it so are acting under that false pretense to defend their comrades and avenge those that were killed. On both parties, the majority of them aren't at fault but only dragged into this by the actions of some. That's one of many reasons I'm glad Patrick Weekes replaced David Gaider. Gaider loved using binary choices, while Weekes likes to have more options in conflicts like we saw with the Geth-Quarian situation in ME3 or the Orlesian Civil War in DAI. In this case, the neutrality would cause the Annulment, and Meredith's regime. Noble rebellion. Civil war. Neutrality isn't mean peace, but can cause war.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 11, 2019 22:57:19 GMT
1: That's the Chantry hierarchy as repeatedly stated in the codex. Templars answer directly to the local Grand Cleric. In smaller Chantries like Lothering they answer to the Revered Mother. It would simply be too impractical for the Templars to need to take all of their orders directly from the Divine. Plus it was Elthina who instated Meredith as Knight-Commander in the first place. 2: I admit that I am reading between the lines when it comes to Anders's reasoning, but let's look at the available facts. Meredith was chomping at the bit to Annul the Gallows even before Anders went with his nuclear option. Karras outright says that Meredith had gone over Elthina's head and directly petitioned Justinia for the Right. We can debate what Justinia's answer would have been, but that's because we have information that Anders did not, and Meredith was so unhinged by that point that I'm not sure Justinia's answer would have mattered. Karras is talking pretty openly about it, so the Templars don't appear to be attempting to keep this a secret. From this we can infer that Anders heard about it during one of his trips to the Gallows with Hawke. Of course, Karras is barely a step below Alrik, so it's understandable that a lot of players wouldn't let him live that long. If Meredith had gotten permission, or lied about getting permission which I wouldn't put past her, then the world would only have the official story of an uncontrollable demon-infestation and no one would have known that it was because she was a crazy woman. If someone knows ahead of time about the Annulment it doesn't take knowing the truth about the Annulment of the Antiva City Circle to see where things are heading. After the bomb goes off, Anders says, "the world needs to see that the Circle is no solution." He also says immediately prior, "the Circle has failed us, Orsino. Even you should be able to see that." These two lines taken together indicate that Anders is referring to the argument that the Circle exists to protect mages. He no-doubt heard that argument a lot in his youth considering that the Loyalists are the second largest fraternity in Kinloch Hold and closely allied with the dominant Aequitarians. Blowing up a Chantry doesn't do anything to show mages that the Circle won't protect them. In illegal Annulment in response to a crime committed by an apostate, which the apostate in question openly takes responsibility for, is another matter. You and I have already agreed that things would have gone very differently if Meredith had just executed Anders and let the Gallows live. It's true that Anders's plan did have a luck component in that Meredith wouldn't just kill every last mage anyway. However, if Meredith had been able to initiate the Annulment the way that she wanted the mages would have been blindsided and it's pretty much guaranteed that there would be no survivors. By timing it when he did, Anders greatly increased the chance that at least one mage would be able to escape to spread word to the other Circles. From a purely logical standpoint, Anders's plan was a better alternative than letting everything happen on Meredith's terms. One last note, which I admit is pure Wild Mass Guessing on my part. I think Anders knew the truth about what happened to the Antiva City Circle. I find it very unlikely that Solas is the only mage in thousands of years to figure out that spirits can tell him about historical events. The flavor text for the Spirit Healer specialization states that they are watched more closely because their interactions with benign spirits greatly increases their risk of possession. This is the official reason, but how often is the official reason the only reason? I think it is very likely that an unofficial reason for this extra scrutiny is that Spirit Healers have a tendency to learn things that the Chantry would rather keep hidden. I think that Anders could have learned the truth about the Antiva City Circle either from one of the spirits he communed with as part of his training, or from Justice when they fused. Ah, I see. It's under the Templar Hierarchy entry. I was looking at the Chantry hierarchy one and all it says is: "Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. Each grand cleric presides over numerous chantries and represents the highest religious authority for their region. They travel to Val Royeaux when the College of Clerics convenes, but otherwise remain where they are assigned. All grand clerics are addressed as 'Your Grace.'" Thank you. As for Anders knowing about the illegal Right in Antiva, I think you are reading too much into that for a very simple reason : That wasn't a thing in the lore until DAI so how would that be a motive for Anders when that event didn't exist yet. But for the sake of discussiuon, let's ignore that meta and assume it was always there. Regarding Kallas talking openly about it, I don't really know how reliable that is as a source of how open the Templars were about it since he is the only one who mentions it. If he is dead, no other Templar talks about it including Meredith until Ander's attack iirc. I imagine it might have been just rumors to the Templars, hence why Karras is the only one to speak openly about it since his personality is one of trusting rumors as fact and not caring about discretion. Agreed about Meredith. She would have told a story about how she discovered that the Circle was ful of blood mages, and in her state it wouldn't even seem like a lie to her. (The irony is her paranoia wasn't even that wrong, since sure enough there were many blood mages including the First Enchanter) As for Anders's lines, eh I think that's too subjective to really say. When I heard those lines, while yes I agree that he is saying that about that argument to Orsino the rest sems to just go with his "I will not accept any form of compromise, so I will remove any chance of it" mindset. So he is making it so the world, mainly the other Circles, see that the only option is revolution thus the things currently aren't solutions. As you said, we agreed that things would have been different if Meredith just dealt with Anders. But as I've said before, that was why Anders attacked the Chantry. By committing mass murder, including Elthinia who was the only one keeping Meredith at bay, and knowing her paranoia his attack let her off the leash and able to lash out. The last bit you admit is just guesswork, so I can't really debate it. The Annulment of the Antiva City Circle was obviously introduced as a History Repeats situation considering its similarities to the Annulment of the Gallows. And as I said Anders wouldn't need to know about it to see where Meredith's plans were going. While Elthina may have delayed the Annulment, she was also enabling Meredith's law-breaking. We are given no indication that she told Meredith to knock off the illegal Tranquilizations that have been occurring for the better part of a decade, nor is there any indication that she told Meredith to stop blocking attempts to elect a viscount. Those are only the most obvious of Meredith's crimes prior to the Annulment, and yet Elthina does nothing about them that the player is made aware off. She even wastes a perfect opportunity to send a message to the Divine that that someone needs to get Meredith under control. Even the supposedly pro-mage Justinia doesn't appear concerned that a Knight-Commander has usurped a secular office, and there's no way she didn't know about it. What I took from Anders's statement about removing the compromise because there is none, I interpreted it as him thinking that any "compromise" would just have been a return to the status quo with at best a new coat of paint, something that I have a hard time disagreeing with after what happened in Asunder. The last thread of Meredith's leash was going to break regardless of what Anders did. His mass murder created the opportunity for someone to escape hers.
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Post by fylimar on Dec 11, 2019 23:00:01 GMT
Cati, step down. I have only listed the two options you objectively have at the end of DA 2, nothing more, OK? Nothing more, since I'm not interested in entering this discussion. I was only agreeing with Lady, that the arguments went in circles (still no pun) for a while now. Sorry, i'm terrible. No, you're a sweetie, you just get carried away, when the term mage I. Any context pops up. Have fun fighting the fight
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 11, 2019 23:02:30 GMT
Hi all - a reminder that personal attacks are not permitted.
A post has been removed - thank you.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Dec 12, 2019 11:38:42 GMT
I agree about this thread going in circles (no pun intended ... I guess )
I do likeGreagoir in origins, but siding with him would mean to kill the whole circle, including the kids, so I always try to find Irving (and so far succeeded of course), so yeah, apart from DAI, it is really hard to side with the templars, so I guess, DAI is an improvement? I wish, DA2 would have given us the option to either stay neutral or side with the templars, that don't agree with Meredith - there seemed to be a lot of them, but sadly the choice was Meredith or Orsino.
True, that's why I don't side with the templars in DAO, to safe the kids
however there's a few more good ones (templars) in Origins, Ser Otto, Carroll (even though he's batty), Cullen (yes I still count him as a good one, despite his harsh words and views, and honestly...who could blame him?) in DA2 though...we have...Emeric (who gets killed), Thrask (who also gets killed) and Moira...I'm also putting Cullen on the neutral spectrum in this installment, yes he's extreme in several occasions but mellows down over the years.
so yeah, we only ever see a handful of reasonable and likeable templars in each installment
and I really wish there'd been a third option during DA2's climax. I mean you're given a "I want to stay neutral" option, only for Meredith to take it away a third option should (or could) have been to fight the extreme elements of both sides, and rally the ones that just want to be safe and protect whilst backed by Aveline's guardsmen because in that regard I agree with Elthina "if it comes to war, it's the people (civilians) who will loose"
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Post by fylimar on Dec 12, 2019 15:46:04 GMT
I agree about this thread going in circles (no pun intended ... I guess )
I do likeGreagoir in origins, but siding with him would mean to kill the whole circle, including the kids, so I always try to find Irving (and so far succeeded of course), so yeah, apart from DAI, it is really hard to side with the templars, so I guess, DAI is an improvement? I wish, DA2 would have given us the option to either stay neutral or side with the templars, that don't agree with Meredith - there seemed to be a lot of them, but sadly the choice was Meredith or Orsino.
True, that's why I don't side with the templars in DAO, to safe the kids
however there's a few more good ones (templars) in Origins, Ser Otto, Carroll (even though he's batty), Cullen (yes I still count him as a good one, despite his harsh words and views, and honestly...who could blame him?) in DA2 though...we have...Emeric (who gets killed), Thrask (who also gets killed) and Moira...I'm also putting Cullen on the neutral spectrum in this installment, yes he's extreme in several occasions but mellows down over the years.
so yeah, we only ever see a handful of reasonable and likeable templars in each installment
and I really wish there'd been a third option during DA2's climax. I mean you're given a "I want to stay neutral" option, only for Meredith to take it away a third option should (or could) have been to fight the extreme elements of both sides, and rally the ones that just want to be safe and protect whilst backed by Aveline's guardsmen because in that regard I agree with Elthina "if it comes to war, it's the people (civilians) who will loose"
I totally forgot about Ser Otto - and I just did his quest a few days ago (with a mage ). Yeah, he is alright. And the templar commander in Lothering is a really chilled dude. I wish, he would have survived. I don't agree about Cullen though, but I would put that templar recruit (Keran) in the ring.
On the mage side, I really liked Petra in DAO, despite her not having much screentime, and Sol in DA2. I don't think, we get the info, if SOl survived the fight in the Gallows, do we? I would love for him to be save. I like Alain too, but if I remember correctly, he survives at least, if you side with the mages?
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LadyofNemesis
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LadyofNemesis
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ladyofnemesis
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Dec 12, 2019 16:03:39 GMT
I totally forgot about Ser Otto - and I just did his quest a few days ago (with a mage ). Yeah, he is alright. And the templar commander in Lothering is a really chilled dude. I wish, he would have survived. I don't agree about Cullen though, but I would put that templar recruit (Keran) in the ring.
On the mage side, I really liked Petra in DAO, despite her not having much screentime, and Sol in DA2. I don't think, we get the info, if SOl survived the fight in the Gallows, do we? I would love for him to be save. I like Alain too, but if I remember correctly, he survives at least, if you side with the mages?
ah right, forgot about the Lothering Chantry templars, they seem like good ones as well...also forgot about Keran
Petra was alright, as was that guy with them...what was his name...Kinnon I believe? Sol...you mean Solivitus right? He's one of my favorite npc's in DA 2, and I like to believe he survived the ordeal and then went along with the Inquisition to help out making potions and stuff
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Post by fylimar on Dec 12, 2019 16:11:33 GMT
I totally forgot about Ser Otto - and I just did his quest a few days ago (with a mage ). Yeah, he is alright. And the templar commander in Lothering is a really chilled dude. I wish, he would have survived. I don't agree about Cullen though, but I would put that templar recruit (Keran) in the ring.
On the mage side, I really liked Petra in DAO, despite her not having much screentime, and Sol in DA2. I don't think, we get the info, if SOl survived the fight in the Gallows, do we? I would love for him to be save. I like Alain too, but if I remember correctly, he survives at least, if you side with the mages?
ah right, forgot about the Lothering Chantry templars, they seem like good ones as well...also forgot about Keran
Petra was alright, as was that guy with them...what was his name...Kinnon I believe? Sol...you mean Solivitus right? He's one of my favorite npc's in DA 2, and I like to believe he survived the ordeal and then went along with the Inquisition to help out making potions and stuff Yes, Solivitus - I mostly call him Sol, since he does call himself that. Yes, I like to think he survived too.
I also have a soft spot for the bookwormish mage in DAI (I think, you only have him in the library, if you sided with the mages and did some war table mission or so?), since I'm a bookworm myself
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Post by Sonya on Dec 14, 2019 11:58:25 GMT
OK, here are good templars and good mages in DA2 (as well as bad ones). There are templars who don't agree with lunatic Meredith, mages who don't summon Demons whom they can't control (what we see during the fight - mages jusr summon Shades, Rage demons, there are abominations), there are mages who just want leave in piece as well as templars in DA2. It's a fact!Mages And templars! BUT what we see - it a war. And the grim reality of ANY WAR - people die, no matter their intentions: bad, good, just random peope on the streets (we all see that in the end of the game). Again, it's a war where people always die. You can save someone of course, but not all. So siding with tepmars or mages - doesn't matter: good poeple will still die, as it's a war. You just can't do anything with it. It's sad, but it''s reality you must accept. Even in out real world with those stupid wars. And how many wars were there during Earth history? Because of what? Peopla always die and die. Srupid wars where innocent are caught in the crossfire. Grim and sad.
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Mithras
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Post by Mithras on Dec 18, 2019 17:27:54 GMT
The White Spire was the only Circle Cole had been to. It's the only one he could have been referring to when talking about the abuses he witnessed. Technically incorrect, but that's not even what I meant. It's incorrect because Cole can read the mind of people and the past of objects and he was in Therinfall Redoubt. He could have picked up stories from literally any circle in Thedas outside of the Imperium. But that was not even my point. What I meant was that just because there was a number of abuses in the White Spire, that doesn't mean it was an horrible place to live, any more than one corrupt guardsman or Chevalier make Denerim or Val Royeaux hellholes.
We don't know the number of incidents at the White Spire but since Rhys was sent to freaking Tevinter and allowed to contact spirits, I'd say that the Knight Commander that Lambert replaced was fairly liberal.
Considering Uldred and Anders, he was probably too permissive, yes.
Suffice it to say that, despite all his "hardasseness", the two times we were able to explore Kinloch Hold when it was not under siege by demons, I didn't see anyone scared or abused. I saw teenagers gossiping, children learning, adults discussing politics. The only mages who we saw suffering punishments were those who had done something to deserve it.
Just like a peasant's lot in life can change if his wise, just and peace-loving sovereign is replaced by a petulant, spoiled manchild with expansionist tendencies. Or, hell, if mages are freed, how it is entirely the luck of the draw whether his new neighbor will be a Wynne or an Uldred.
Uncertainty is a fact of life. Why is it that mages deserve special treatment?
That vote happened before Anders committed his act of terrorism. It has no bearing on this discussion.
No more than all Templars are Alrik or all Circles Kirkwall.
The arabic minority in the United States are not united by a politically distinct group whose leadership argues for secession from the Union and for the laws of the land to no longer apply to them. Furthermore, said minority is not in possession of weapons of mass destruction which they won't surrender and give as assurance only their word that they won't use them against Americans. The only "punishment" that we saw the Templars enact on mages in Asunder was a curfew. Oh no, the horror!
That is a vast oversimplification of a very complex issue.
While it is true that the Circle's uncompromising stance led to a number of parents hiding their children and this is a problem that might not exist if mages were granted more freedom, your statement completely ignores the fact that granting mages freedoms comes with its own set of problems that the Circle solves. Mages abusing their powers, mages falling to temptation and becoming Abominations. Considering that the number of parents who manage to hide their magical offspring until it becomes dangerous is vastly overshadowed by the number of people who dutifully deliver mages to the Templars, then we can say that the vast majority of mages in Southern Thedas are in the Circle where they can't hurt the public.
A minority of mages who were hid and became dangerous is preferable to 100% of mages being free and able to hurt others. Furthermore, that minority who remains hidden must thread carefully for fear of alerting the Templars. Ergo, the threat of the Templars serves as an incentive to not abuse magic and be discovered.
Furthermore, I will point out that if a child with, say, Ebola was discovered right now, it would be quarantined and the mother's pleas to please, send instead doctors to treat the kid at home wouldn't fly. As such, I don't see any reason to humor Isolde or any other parent who hides their mage child. If they can't realize the threat that their son or daughter now poses to itself and others, then the problem lies with them, not the system that is doing what it has to in order to protect people.
The Geneva Conventions never had to try and contain people who can open portals to Hell with a papercut. Not to mention that these are Medieval Times, not the 20th century. A noble in Orlais quartered an elf for throwing a rock that didn't even hit him. And your issue is that Anders, who escaped seven bloody times, was in Solitary for a year?
No, they can't. Meredith was being corrupted by Red Lyrium. It's not a common occurrence.
Only those who would have been unable to fight off demons anyway.
If we applied this standard to mages, we would have killed them all long ago. How many Abominations have there been? How many times has the world been brought to the brink because of mages? Five Blights, the Breach, Hakkon.
Not to mention that the supposed "illegal" Annulment of Antiva's Circle is very suspicious. How the hell did one Templar manage to kill one hundred mages in such a short amount of time that calling an Annulment was the only way to cover it up?
Ok, that's ridiculous and, quite frankly, insulting.
So, if I say, "The First Persian Invasion of Greece was, in large part, prompted by Athens inciting Greek cities in what was, nominally, Persian territory in Asia Minor to rebel against the Empire." does that mean I am supporting the persian invasions of Greece? No, I'm just stating an historical fact.
I'm not denying that the Templars played a role in this war but it is a fine line indeed between showing so much leniency that people will rebel because they do not fear its consequences and so little that people will rebel because they have no choice. With the benefit of hindsight, we can claim that Lord Seeker Lambert did indeed cross that line but if I agree with him on anything, it is that sedition and terrorism are not countered by doing nothing like you're suggesting.
First of all, that's a generalization. Off the top of my head, I can recall four mages in Inquisition who trusted Templars. Vivienne, Minaeve, Connor and that mage in the Hinterlands with a Templar lover.
Second, the system does not require the trust of the mages to work, just their compliance.
They are entirely free to mistrust or even hate the Templars, it's up to them. What they aren't free to do is endanger the world and the people just because they have trust issues.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 18, 2019 20:48:42 GMT
Mithras Vivienne is absolutely irrelevant, she just speaks nonsenses, while she wants to be a magister-Divine and to keep the Templars on short leash... Also: it's proves, she didn't trust the Templars for amoment. Minaeve is the worst example, she was a little child with a great trauma* – she was like Keili, in the Kinloch hold. I already said: people like Minaeve and Keili, who blame themselves for what they born, and who think, they need supervision to live, because they would be lost in their own "sins", exist in every dictatorship. Their existence doesn't justify such systems. Connor was probably blamed and terrified in the Circle. Vivienne at least blamed him. Probably in the Circle they planted in his head, he wouldn't able to live without the Templars' supervision. Depends on the situation, but such a "romantic" relationship, like between a mage and a Templar or a slave and a master is rarely lead to some good, or healthy – also: I just say to you: this is a law-breaking one: if they were together, it's totally excluded, they believed in the Circle. That lady only didn't like the war, and to use her magic for everything else than healing. ___ *Probably her companions died by those Templars who found her... or some beasts, and her mind filled – nothing else can explain her case, it's against every canon we ever saw in DA. Probably she filled the dark point of his memory with that fairy-tale about the good Templars... The Dalish three mage rule is a bullshit. Absolutely illogical retcon.) *** And again: Thedas isn't a medieval world. *** Everyone knows that poor people live poorly – but this fact doesn't justify the Circle. Also: peasant/poor riots always happened. I support those as well. *** About the that "ridiculous trust problems" – those can cause rebellions. *** Every Circle was terrible, except probably Dairsmuid – the Seekers Annulled it, because they were able to do it according the system (and according to you this can be justified probably). It's weird you heard those conversations in the Kinloch hold, and you considered it normal. *** And you're not right about that if Alrik, Karras and Meredith are the Templars, then Quentin is the "mages". Because Quentin is just a criminal, a serial killer, like Kelder, the Magistrate's son – and everyone consider them criminal. Quentin is not "the mages" – like Kelder isn't "kirkwall's citizens". But Alrik with his madness, and Meredith with her madness got green light from the Elthina, the Divine, so: from the Chantry. Their madness was legalized, so: they're the icon of the system. *** Nobody among the rebel mages wants that the mages should be treated differently. On the contrary. They should live like anyone else, according to the same law...
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 18, 2019 21:22:36 GMT
The White Spire was the only Circle Cole had been to. It's the only one he could have been referring to when talking about the abuses he witnessed. Technically incorrect, but that's not even what I meant. It's incorrect because Cole can read the mind of people and the past of objects and he was in Therinfall Redoubt. He could have picked up stories from literally any circle in Thedas outside of the Imperium. But that was not even my point. What I meant was that just because there was a number of abuses in the White Spire, that doesn't mean it was an horrible place to live, any more than one corrupt guardsman or Chevalier make Denerim or Val Royeaux hellholes.
We don't know the number of incidents at the White Spire but since Rhys was sent to freaking Tevinter and allowed to contact spirits, I'd say that the Knight Commander that Lambert replaced was fairly liberal.
Considering Uldred and Anders, he was probably too permissive, yes.
Suffice it to say that, despite all his "hardasseness", the two times we were able to explore Kinloch Hold when it was not under siege by demons, I didn't see anyone scared or abused. I saw teenagers gossiping, children learning, adults discussing politics. The only mages who we saw suffering punishments were those who had done something to deserve it.
Just like a peasant's lot in life can change if his wise, just and peace-loving sovereign is replaced by a petulant, spoiled manchild with expansionist tendencies. Or, hell, if mages are freed, how it is entirely the luck of the draw whether his new neighbor will be a Wynne or an Uldred.
Uncertainty is a fact of life. Why is it that mages deserve special treatment?
That vote happened before Anders committed his act of terrorism. It has no bearing on this discussion.
No more than all Templars are Alrik or all Circles Kirkwall.
The arabic minority in the United States are not united by a politically distinct group whose leadership argues for secession from the Union and for the laws of the land to no longer apply to them. Furthermore, said minority is not in possession of weapons of mass destruction which they won't surrender and give as assurance only their word that they won't use them against Americans. The only "punishment" that we saw the Templars enact on mages in Asunder was a curfew. Oh no, the horror!
That is a vast oversimplification of a very complex issue.
While it is true that the Circle's uncompromising stance led to a number of parents hiding their children and this is a problem that might not exist if mages were granted more freedom, your statement completely ignores the fact that granting mages freedoms comes with its own set of problems that the Circle solves. Mages abusing their powers, mages falling to temptation and becoming Abominations. Considering that the number of parents who manage to hide their magical offspring until it becomes dangerous is vastly overshadowed by the number of people who dutifully deliver mages to the Templars, then we can say that the vast majority of mages in Southern Thedas are in the Circle where they can't hurt the public.
A minority of mages who were hid and became dangerous is preferable to 100% of mages being free and able to hurt others. Furthermore, that minority who remains hidden must thread carefully for fear of alerting the Templars. Ergo, the threat of the Templars serves as an incentive to not abuse magic and be discovered.
Furthermore, I will point out that if a child with, say, Ebola was discovered right now, it would be quarantined and the mother's pleas to please, send instead doctors to treat the kid at home wouldn't fly. As such, I don't see any reason to humor Isolde or any other parent who hides their mage child. If they can't realize the threat that their son or daughter now poses to itself and others, then the problem lies with them, not the system that is doing what it has to in order to protect people.
The Geneva Conventions never had to try and contain people who can open portals to Hell with a papercut. Not to mention that these are Medieval Times, not the 20th century. A noble in Orlais quartered an elf for throwing a rock that didn't even hit him. And your issue is that Anders, who escaped seven bloody times, was in Solitary for a year?
No, they can't. Meredith was being corrupted by Red Lyrium. It's not a common occurrence.
Only those who would have been unable to fight off demons anyway.
If we applied this standard to mages, we would have killed them all long ago. How many Abominations have there been? How many times has the world been brought to the brink because of mages? Five Blights, the Breach, Hakkon.
Not to mention that the supposed "illegal" Annulment of Antiva's Circle is very suspicious. How the hell did one Templar manage to kill one hundred mages in such a short amount of time that calling an Annulment was the only way to cover it up?
Ok, that's ridiculous and, quite frankly, insulting.
So, if I say, "The First Persian Invasion of Greece was, in large part, prompted by Athens inciting Greek cities in what was, nominally, Persian territory in Asia Minor to rebel against the Empire." does that mean I am supporting the persian invasions of Greece? No, I'm just stating an historical fact.
I'm not denying that the Templars played a role in this war but it is a fine line indeed between showing so much leniency that people will rebel because they do not fear its consequences and so little that people will rebel because they have no choice. With the benefit of hindsight, we can claim that Lord Seeker Lambert did indeed cross that line but if I agree with him on anything, it is that sedition and terrorism are not countered by doing nothing like you're suggesting.
First of all, that's a generalization. Off the top of my head, I can recall four mages in Inquisition who trusted Templars. Vivienne, Minaeve, Connor and that mage in the Hinterlands with a Templar lover.
Second, the system does not require the trust of the mages to work, just their compliance.
They are entirely free to mistrust or even hate the Templars, it's up to them. What they aren't free to do is endanger the world and the people just because they have trust issues.
If Cole was referring to the thoughts of the Templars at Therinfal Redoubt, then the problem of the Templars abusing their powers was even more widespread than originally thought. I doubt many of the Templars there were from Kirkwall. Uldred's support didn't come out of thin air, and Anders's mental state was directly caused by the actions of the Templars, including, again, a year of solitary confinement, which is considered a form of torture. That's what Templars like Meredith consider "too permissive". No one is saying that mages deserve special treatment. That's literally the exact opposite of what everyone else is saying. Also, very few, if any, people claim that there should be no form of enforcement to prevent the abuse of magic. Just that the current system has failed in that mandate. There were three separate votes for independence during the Dragon Age. The first occurred before the Annulment of the Gallows. It failed and even Anders thought it was foolish to even try. That was before he spent six years in Kirkwall. The second vote was in direct response to Meredith's crimes. That too failed, and it showed that mages were capable of clamping down on their first instinct which was the cue for the Templars to meet them halfway. The third vote occurred after years of the Templars following Meredith's example and punishing all mages for Anders's actions. Supposedly the mages were acting completely within their rights by holding these votes. Your double standard is showing itself again. Why are the mages the only ones that are expected to take responsibility for the actions of all of their members? Why aren't the Templars, who actively allowed Alrik's actions for at least three years and Karras's actions for at least six, not supposed to be judged by the actions of all Templars? This double standard is part of the problem with the system. The governing body of the mages is acting in direct response to egregious crimes committed against their people, and only took that step after all other attempts at recourse failed. Also, unilaterally stripping every last mage of the rights supposedly guaranteed to them by the Chantry in response to a crime that they did not commit is much more than a "curfew". Rights that can be arbitrarily taken away are not rights at all. So I see you're just ignoring all the mages we've seen that have turned into abominations because the Templars showed them that they have nothing to lose by doing so. If their options are death or Tranquility regardless of what they do, then they have zero incentive to go quietly. That is the absolute worst state of mind for preventing conflict, yet it's one that's actively induced by the Templars. I child with ebola would be treated, not separated from his parents for the rest of his life. The situation you're describing is completely different from the one Isolde was facing. The Stannards were likewise facing the proposition of having no contact with their daughter for the rest of her life. Both cases directly resulted in the kind of situation that the Circle is supposed to prevent. I support Briala's rebellion as much as I support Fiona's. So your attempt at the "Whataboutism" fallacy that you love so much was completely pointless. Again, your parallels don't work. Lambert was "provoked" by the mages acting in accordance with the rights that the Chantry claims to promise them. Absolutely no one was showing so much leniency that the mages didn't fear the consequences. The Circle that engages in forms of torture like long-term solitary confinement was considered too permissive. That is a condemnation of the rest of the system, not an endorsement of Kinloch Hold. If you want to prevent further unrest, punishing all members of a group for the actions of a few is the absolute worst way to do it, and yet that's exactly what the Templars did in response to a crime committed by one apostate. If you want mages to comply you need to give them a reason to. Templars hold life-or-death power over them. If the mages cannot trust the Templars to use that power responsibly, they have no reason to comply and the system crumbles. The Circle of Magi was originally created as a compromise between the mages and the Chantry. For a compromise to work, both sides need to hold up their end of the bargain. That Chantry utterly failed to do so, so the mages responded according to the rights that the Chantry claims to grant them. The mages you list are clearly in a minority by the time we speak to them. Connor carries a great deal of guilt for what he did as an abomination, Minaeve is openly disrespectful of Trevelyan all but stating that s/he has personal reasons for distrusting the Templars, and Vivienne didn't even have to deal with them because she whored herself out to a noble. They're hardly a representative sample.
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『Sky-High Fly-Guy』
N1
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Post by 『Sky-High Fly-Guy』 on Dec 19, 2019 17:06:51 GMT
No; down with my oppressors and their literal crystal meth.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 22, 2019 15:21:57 GMT
There were three separate votes for independence during the Dragon Age. The first occurred before the Annulment of the Gallows. It failed and even Anders thought it was foolish to even try. That was before he spent six years in Kirkwall. The second vote was in direct response to Meredith's crimes. That too failed, and it showed that mages were capable of clamping down on their first instinct which was the cue for the Templars to meet them halfway. The third vote occurred after years of the Templars following Meredith's example and punishing all mages for Anders's actions. Supposedly the mages were acting completely within their rights by holding these votes. Your double standard is showing itself again. Why are the mages the only ones that are expected to take responsibility for the actions of all of their members? Why aren't the Templars, who actively allowed Alrik's actions for at least three years and Karras's actions for at least six, not supposed to be judged by the actions of all Templars? This double standard is part of the problem with the system. If you want mages to comply you need to give them a reason to. Templars hold life-or-death power over them. If the mages cannot trust the Templars to use that power responsibly, they have no reason to comply and the system crumbles. The Circle of Magi was originally created as a compromise between the mages and the Chantry. For a compromise to work, both sides need to hold up their end of the bargain. That Chantry utterly failed to do so, so the mages responded according to the rights that the Chantry claims to grant them. I don't see that the Templars specifically tried to hold the mages accountable for Anders' actions. As you say, there were suddenly two "Guys, should we have a rebellion?" votes in quick succession among the mages' own representatives, one forced by the mages' elected leader herself, and it only "failed" because the meeting was rightly shut down. It was pretty clear that things were heating up and that the mages were on the brink of starting a war. That moving to lock them down further and suspending their rights to make it easier to control them was the wrong way to go is obvious now, but it wouldn't have been then. Showing lenience or acting like business as usual could just as conceivably have emboldened them. And there's a difference between blaming someone for someone else's actions, and acting on the obvious effect a series of events are having on a bunch of people. And mages and templars aren't held to the same basic standards because mages and templars aren't the same. Even if all every Templar did all day was abuse children and turn unwilling mages into tranquil and abominations it still wouldn't come close to some of the suffering singular mages have proven themselves capable of causing by accident. So mages get to toe the line with no tolerance for messing around and their lives potentially being forfeit under the wrong circumstances, and Templars are forgiven for being human, punished individually, and treated as any other semi-corrupt prison warden body. Simple as that.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 22, 2019 18:37:35 GMT
There were three separate votes for independence during the Dragon Age. The first occurred before the Annulment of the Gallows. It failed and even Anders thought it was foolish to even try. That was before he spent six years in Kirkwall. The second vote was in direct response to Meredith's crimes. That too failed, and it showed that mages were capable of clamping down on their first instinct which was the cue for the Templars to meet them halfway. The third vote occurred after years of the Templars following Meredith's example and punishing all mages for Anders's actions. Supposedly the mages were acting completely within their rights by holding these votes. Your double standard is showing itself again. Why are the mages the only ones that are expected to take responsibility for the actions of all of their members? Why aren't the Templars, who actively allowed Alrik's actions for at least three years and Karras's actions for at least six, not supposed to be judged by the actions of all Templars? This double standard is part of the problem with the system. If you want mages to comply you need to give them a reason to. Templars hold life-or-death power over them. If the mages cannot trust the Templars to use that power responsibly, they have no reason to comply and the system crumbles. The Circle of Magi was originally created as a compromise between the mages and the Chantry. For a compromise to work, both sides need to hold up their end of the bargain. That Chantry utterly failed to do so, so the mages responded according to the rights that the Chantry claims to grant them. I don't see that the Templars specifically tried to hold the mages accountable for Anders' actions. As you say, there were suddenly two "Guys, should we have a rebellion?" votes in quick succession among the mages' own representatives, one forced by the mages' elected leader herself, and it only "failed" because the meeting was rightly shut down. It was pretty clear that things were heating up and that the mages were on the brink of starting a war. That moving to lock them down further and suspending their rights to make it easier to control them was the wrong way to go is obvious now, but it wouldn't have been then. Showing lenience or acting like business as usual could just as conceivably have emboldened them. And there's a difference between blaming someone for someone else's actions, and acting on the obvious effect a series of events are having on a bunch of people. And mages and templars aren't held to the same basic standards because mages and templars aren't the same. Even if all every Templar did all day was abuse children and turn unwilling mages into tranquil and abominations it still wouldn't come close to some of the suffering singular mages have proven themselves capable of causing by accident. So mages get to toe the line with no tolerance for messing around and their lives potentially being forfeit under the wrong circumstances, and Templars are forgiven for being human, punished individually, and treated as any other semi-corrupt prison warden body. Simple as that. The mages were unilaterally stripped of their rights in response to Anders's actions and the mages' entirely justified anger over Meredith's actions. The second vote failed because mages like Wynne convinced them that they should be patient instead of going through with their knee-jerk reaction. The Templars then demonstrated that they would not meet the mages halfway, and proceeded to punish them for engaging in the rights they are supposedly promised by the Chantry. It was the Templars who reacted with violence to actions by mages that are supposed to be within the bounds of Chantry law. If the Templars weren't total zealots, it would have been obvious that their response to the mages' justified outrage over the Annulment of the Gallows was the stupidest action possible. But that's exactly what happens when you take a group of people and then decide that they're not really people. Yes, mages and Templars are different. Mages are born, same as a race or a sexual orientation. The actions of one does not reflect on them all. Templars are a man-made organization that supposedly has rules and a mandate. The very structure of their organization has repeatedly shown to dispose its members toward abuse of power, which results in an abject failure of their mandate to protect both mages and non-mages from the risks that come with magic. And once again, I find it extremely disturbing that you continue to describe slavery in its most literal form and yet you see this as an acceptable way to treat anyone.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 22, 2019 23:21:14 GMT
The mages were unilaterally stripped of their rights in response to Anders's actions and the mages' entirely justified anger over Meredith's actions. The second vote failed because mages like Wynne convinced them that they should be patient instead of going through with their knee-jerk reaction. The Templars then demonstrated that they would not meet the mages halfway, and proceeded to punish them for engaging in the rights they are supposedly promised by the Chantry. It was the Templars who reacted with violence to actions by mages that are supposed to be within the bounds of Chantry law. If the Templars weren't total zealots, it would have been obvious that their response to the mages' justified outrage over the Annulment of the Gallows was the stupidest action possible. But that's exactly what happens when you take a group of people and then decide that they're not really people. Yes, mages and Templars are different. Mages are born, same as a race or a sexual orientation. The actions of one does not reflect on them all. Templars are a man-made organization that supposedly has rules and a mandate. The very structure of their organization has repeatedly shown to dispose its members toward abuse of power, which results in an abject failure of their mandate to protect both mages and non-mages from the risks that come with magic. And once again, I find it extremely disturbing that you continue to describe slavery in its most literal form and yet you see this as an acceptable way to treat anyone. Yup, but because the situation had become volatile and the Templars feared a bloodbath. Not specifically because anyone thought Anders' actions were anybody's fault but his own. Sure a lot of mages might have felt like they were being punished for his actions, in the same sense that you might resent not being allowed to speed on the highway even if you can handle it because others can't, but that doesn't mean it's the truth of what's going on. The second vote failed because it was never allowed to take place, because the mages demonstrated actual eagerness for war by insisting on voting on it. "Chantry law" didn't have a provision for mages to just decide that they didn't want to play ball anymore. The Chantry only allowed the Libertarians and the Resolutionsts their causes because expecting mages to actually be happy with the way of things would have been unrealistic, and not allowing them an outlet would have been counterproductive. That isn't the same as it being the mages' right to decide whether or not to stay under outside control. If you think it's easy to decide whether doubling down on being a hardass or showing leniency is the right way to calm people down and get them back in line then that's because you've never been responsible for anyone else's behavior but your own. It isn't. Both can easily backfire on you and escalate the problem, as they could here. And the more people you're dealing with the safer it is to default to being a hardass, because it's almost impossible to roll things back once the people who need to respect your authority have started exploiting your kindness. And I find it beyond moronic that people keep likening mages' treatment to historical slavery. Slaves have been oppressed throughout human history for entirely political and economic reasons, and it isn't until recently that we've come to respect compassion and selflessness enough as virtues to have a major problem with it. And that still isn't even the case everywhere. Mages are put in circles because they're a literal physical threat to everyone around them simply because they're mages. That's not slavery, that's quarantine. If anyone were to argue for you or my neighbors to be treated the way mages are without there being anything especially dangerous about you then I'd clock them. But this game is set in a hypothetical world where a significant amount of people are truly, exceptionally, inherently deadly to be around, and the rest have to figure out how to deal with that. And your or my understanding of human rights or how one person can or cannot treat another are useless to them, because our history and our experiences simply don't cover people who also happen to be born as live grenades.
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Quickpaw
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Post by Quickpaw on Dec 23, 2019 1:21:36 GMT
"Feared a bloodbath." Feared the loss of their power, you mean. I don't know how many times we have to rehash this point: THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN AND NEEDS A COMPLETE OVERHAUL EVEN IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT MAGE RIGHTS. Need I remind you who has power in this dynamic: drug addicts who are slowly going psychotic? Just like the Jedi Order, the Circles of Magi are set up to produce fall guys and scapegoats to justify the tactics of extremists and terrorists, putting EVERYONE in more danger from "out of control magic." And I do. Not. Give. A. Flying. FUCK. What abilities someone does or does not have. They are due the same personal rights as any other sentient being, lest the constant stress of imprisonment and threat of torture and death drive them to fulfill our fears to begin with. A mage needs a strong moral compass and stable emotional lives to resist demonic possession, right? They cannot have that in the Circle. By design. The Circles DO. NOT. WORK. The only reason they've persisted this long is because of the Chantry's brutality and stranglehold over the people's goodwill in Southern Thedas. What the Mages need right now is something noone in the history of Thedas has given them. Not the Evanuris, not the Imperium, not the Andrastians, not the Qunari. Being treated like normal people, judged solely on their actions.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 23, 2019 2:14:21 GMT
The mages were unilaterally stripped of their rights in response to Anders's actions and the mages' entirely justified anger over Meredith's actions. The second vote failed because mages like Wynne convinced them that they should be patient instead of going through with their knee-jerk reaction. The Templars then demonstrated that they would not meet the mages halfway, and proceeded to punish them for engaging in the rights they are supposedly promised by the Chantry. It was the Templars who reacted with violence to actions by mages that are supposed to be within the bounds of Chantry law. If the Templars weren't total zealots, it would have been obvious that their response to the mages' justified outrage over the Annulment of the Gallows was the stupidest action possible. But that's exactly what happens when you take a group of people and then decide that they're not really people. Yes, mages and Templars are different. Mages are born, same as a race or a sexual orientation. The actions of one does not reflect on them all. Templars are a man-made organization that supposedly has rules and a mandate. The very structure of their organization has repeatedly shown to dispose its members toward abuse of power, which results in an abject failure of their mandate to protect both mages and non-mages from the risks that come with magic. And once again, I find it extremely disturbing that you continue to describe slavery in its most literal form and yet you see this as an acceptable way to treat anyone. Yup, but because the situation had become volatile and the Templars feared a bloodbath. Not specifically because anyone thought Anders' actions were anybody's fault but his own. Sure a lot of mages might have felt like they were being punished for his actions, in the same sense that you might resent not being allowed to speed on the highway even if you can handle it because others can't, but that doesn't mean it's the truth of what's going on. The second vote failed because it was never allowed to take place, because the mages demonstrated actual eagerness for war by insisting on voting on it. "Chantry law" didn't have a provision for mages to just decide that they didn't want to play ball anymore. The Chantry only allowed the Libertarians and the Resolutionsts their causes because expecting mages to actually be happy with the way of things would have been unrealistic, and not allowing them an outlet would have been counterproductive. That isn't the same as it being the mages' right to decide whether or not to stay under outside control. If you think it's easy to decide whether doubling down on being a hardass or showing leniency is the right way to calm people down and get them back in line then that's because you've never been responsible for anyone else's behavior but your own. It isn't. Both can easily backfire on you and escalate the problem, as they could here. And the more people you're dealing with the safer it is to default to being a hardass, because it's almost impossible to roll things back once the people who need to respect your authority have started exploiting your kindness. And I find it beyond moronic that people keep likening mages' treatment to historical slavery. Slaves have been oppressed throughout human history for entirely political and economic reasons, and it isn't until recently that we've come to respect compassion and selflessness enough as virtues to have a major problem with it. And that still isn't even the case everywhere. Mages are put in circles because they're a literal physical threat to everyone around them simply because they're mages. That's not slavery, that's quarantine. If anyone were to argue for you or my neighbors to be treated the way mages are without there being anything especially dangerous about you then I'd clock them. But this game is set in a hypothetical world where a significant amount of people are truly, exceptionally, inherently deadly to be around, and the rest have to figure out how to deal with that. And your or my understanding of human rights or how one person can or cannot treat another are useless to them, because our history and our experiences simply don't cover people who also happen to be born as live grenades. The bloodbath would have been on the Templars' own heads due to their total inability to act with any modicum of intelligence. It's explicitly stated that Wynne was the one who convinced the mages not to vote for secession. Many mages resent her for this. The mages also weren't eager for war, they were eager to end a system that has failed them. The mages were supposedly given the right to have a voice in how the Circle was governed. The Chantry stripped them of that supposed "right" as punishment for the actions of one apostate. Abusing your authority by laying down unilateral punishments for crimes that were not committed by the people in your care is also a great way to lose any respect for your authority. Unless you think that fear and respect are synonyms. Many tyrants make that mistake. Meredith did. You keep describing the mages' situation using the exact definition of slavery, yet you keep insisting that it's actually not. You can't have it both ways. In fact, you've crossed the line into saying that it's fine to turn the Circles into concentration camps. A person's physical abilities are not a reflection of their heart. The Circle of Magi utterly forgets that the mages have the same heart as all other people, and any solution to the dangers of magic needs to take that into account. This leads to abuse, which leads to unrest and resentment, which leads to conflict and death, the very things the Circle is intended to prevent. The Circle has demonstrated itself to be a self-defeating system by design, and your idea of removing the ability to pretend that Circles, which were originally created with the full consent of the mages, are not actually a form of slavery or punishment will only make the problem worse.
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