Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,492
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Dec 23, 2019 3:40:58 GMT
It's explicitly stated that Wynne was the one who convinced the mages not to vote for secession. Many mages resent her for this. The mages also weren't eager for war, they were eager to end a system that has failed them. The mages were supposedly given the right to have a voice in how the Circle was governed. The Chantry stripped them of that supposed "right" as punishment for the actions of one apostate. Abusing your authority by laying down unilateral punishments for crimes that were not committed by the people in your care is also a great way to lose any respect for your authority. Unless you think that fear and respect are synonyms. Many tyrants make that mistake. Meredith did. You keep describing the mages' situation using the exact definition of slavery, yet you keep insisting that it's actually not. You can't have it both ways. In fact, you've crossed the line into saying that it's fine to turn the Circles into concentration camps. A person's physical abilities are not a reflection of their heart. The Circle of Magi utterly forgets that the mages have the same heart as all other people, and any solution to the dangers of magic needs to take that into account. This leads to abuse, which leads to unrest and resentment, which leads to conflict and death, the very things the Circle is intended to prevent. The Circle has demonstrated itself to be a self-defeatting system by design, and your idea of removing the ability to pretend that Circles, which were originally created with the full consent of the mages, are not actually a form of slavery or punishment will only make the problem worse. Wynne convinced the mages not to vote for secession during the first vote in 9:37. The second, at the White Spire, was broken up before it could actually take place. Trying to tear themselves away from the Chantry was always going to mean war, and everybody knew it. They had the right to a voice in how the Circles were governed, sure, not the right to leave them and plunge everything into chaos. That was kinda the point. I don't think that fear and respect are synonyms, but I do know that they overlap a little. It's not in humans to respect something they know they can screw around with without serious and certain consequences to themselves or people they care about. Which is why you think twice about showing uncertainty to people you've been charged to keep under control. Much as I love being told what I'm supposedly saying by someone else, you keep missing the point. Yammering about our definition of slavery doesn't change that Thedas' situation with mages is completely unlike any power struggle or systematic oppression in human history. We have had cases of people being culled or enslaved because it was believed that they had terrible power that couldn't be allowed to exist freely in the world. In Thedas, that assumption is factually correct, and has been demonstrated repeatedly. "Concentration camp" doesn't mean the same thing you're talking about if it's actually keeping dangerous monsters contained. Mages' hearts have also been thoroughly proven not to impede their physical capability for danger. Connor sure didn't want to invite a demon into his body and turn his father's land into a ravaged hellhole, but he did it anyway. Because he was a mage. The Circle of Magi doesn't forget that mages have hearts, it just deems that fact less important than the fact that they endanger everyone else in the world just by being alive. And mages being pretty damn few compared to the rest of the men, women and children in Thedas, I think that's fair. Again, the Circle of Magi has existed for a thousand years, longer than most countries, let alone governing bodies, have been around in RL, without major incident. And each of the world-ending threats dealt with in the games so far has been mages from before that time who weren't satisfied with having conquered the world, who ended up destroying it and has come back for more. System sounds more or less functional from where I'm sitting. Self-defeating certainly isn't the word that comes to mind. Sure you don't just have too high expectations for an organization that keeps mages in line? Isolated instances of abuse and crisis aren't unique to the Circles, not by a country mile, and they don't outweigh the horrors that the system has kept in check by preventing a majority of mages from doing whatever they want for so long.
|
|
inherit
1274
0
3,016
sageoflife
1,412
August 2016
sageoflife
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by sageoflife on Dec 23, 2019 4:26:36 GMT
It's explicitly stated that Wynne was the one who convinced the mages not to vote for secession. Many mages resent her for this. The mages also weren't eager for war, they were eager to end a system that has failed them. The mages were supposedly given the right to have a voice in how the Circle was governed. The Chantry stripped them of that supposed "right" as punishment for the actions of one apostate. Abusing your authority by laying down unilateral punishments for crimes that were not committed by the people in your care is also a great way to lose any respect for your authority. Unless you think that fear and respect are synonyms. Many tyrants make that mistake. Meredith did. You keep describing the mages' situation using the exact definition of slavery, yet you keep insisting that it's actually not. You can't have it both ways. In fact, you've crossed the line into saying that it's fine to turn the Circles into concentration camps. A person's physical abilities are not a reflection of their heart. The Circle of Magi utterly forgets that the mages have the same heart as all other people, and any solution to the dangers of magic needs to take that into account. This leads to abuse, which leads to unrest and resentment, which leads to conflict and death, the very things the Circle is intended to prevent. The Circle has demonstrated itself to be a self-defeatting system by design, and your idea of removing the ability to pretend that Circles, which were originally created with the full consent of the mages, are not actually a form of slavery or punishment will only make the problem worse. Wynne convinced the mages not to vote for secession during the first vote in 9:37. The second, at the White Spire, was broken up before it could actually take place. Trying to tear themselves away from the Chantry was always going to mean war, and everybody knew it. They had the right to a voice in how the Circles were governed, sure, not the right to leave them and plunge everything into chaos. That was kinda the point. I don't think that fear and respect are synonyms, but I do know that they overlap a little. It's not in humans to respect something they know they can screw around with without serious and certain consequences to themselves or people they care about. Which is why you think twice about showing uncertainty to people you've been charged to keep under control. Much as I love being told what I'm supposedly saying by someone else, you keep missing the point. Yammering about our definition of slavery doesn't change that Thedas' situation with mages is completely unlike any power struggle or systematic oppression in human history. We have had cases of people being culled or enslaved because it was believed that they had terrible power that couldn't be allowed to exist freely in the world. In Thedas, that assumption is factually correct, and has been demonstrated repeatedly. "Concentration camp" doesn't mean the same thing you're talking about if it's actually keeping dangerous monsters contained. Mages' hearts have also been thoroughly proven not to impede their physical capability for danger. Connor sure didn't want to invite a demon into his body and turn his father's land into a ravaged hellhole, but he did it anyway. Because he was a mage. The Circle of Magi doesn't forget that mages have hearts, it just deems that fact less important than the fact that they endanger everyone else in the world just by being alive. And mages being pretty damn few compared to the rest of the men, women and children in Thedas, I think that's fair. Again, the Circle of Magi has existed for a thousand years, longer than most countries, let alone governing bodies, have been around in RL, without major incident. And each of the world-ending threats dealt with in the games so far has been mages from before that time who weren't satisfied with having conquered the world, who ended up destroying it and has come back for more. System sounds more or less functional from where I'm sitting. Self-defeating certainly isn't the word that comes to mind. Sure you don't just have too high expectations for an organization that keeps mages in line? Isolated instances of abuse and crisis aren't unique to the Circles, not by a country mile, and they don't outweigh the horrors that the system has kept in check by preventing a majority of mages from doing whatever they want for so long. No, it was the second one that Wynne convinced them not to vote on. It's explicitly stated that many mages resent her for this, especially since all it did was open them up to more abuses from the Templars. It was the mages who agreed to join the Chantry in the first place under the agreement that the Chantry would fulfill certain obligations. The Chantry failed to do that in spectacular fashion, so the mages rightly considered the agreement null and void. The Chantry stripped them of that right for a crime they didn't commit. The first vote lost by majority, and even Anders thought the attempt was idiotic due to not having seen Kirkwall yet. So, you claim that you don't think fear and respect are synonyms, then you turn around and describe them as being the same thing. Which is it? You don't get to have it both ways. Just like you don't get to have it both ways when claiming that the Circles don't actually constitute slavery even though your own words meet the literal definition. A concentration camp is also an accurate descriptor of what you described as acceptable treatment. Connor ended up inviting a demon because the system as it existed left his mother terrified of being separated from her child for the rest of their lives. That's just one of many examples of the Circle creating the problem it's meant to prevent. If the Circle worked differently Isolde wouldn't have stood in the way of Connor getting the training he needed. Another is Meredith Stannard, whose parents hid her for the same reason Isolde did, and who only turned into an abomination when the Templars were literally on the family's doorstep. Deciding that it doesn't matter that mages have the same hearts as everyone else is exactly what caused the system to fail. Mages found themselves unilaterally punished for crimes they did not commit. If the Templars had remembered that mages are people, they would have realized that this would only breed resentment and further unrest, thus once again causing the problems the Circle is meant to prevent. The only reason the Circle lasted as long as it did is because of coverups by the Seekers. It only took the Templars twenty-five years to start abusing the Right of Annulment. The only reason the rebellion didn't start then is because the Seekers made sure no one knew about it. The only reason rebellion was triggered by the Annulment of the Gallows is because Anders's actions prevented the Seekers from covering it up as they did the Annulment of the Antiva City Circle. And you are once again advocating for punishment for crimes committed by others, which is the ultimate source of the resentment that finally led to open revolt. Just because other people have it bad doesn't mean that what happens to the mages is right. Oppression is not a zero-sum game. And the abuses aren't isolated. The very nature of the system allows and encourages them. Cole says that the White Spire was nearly as bad as the Gallows, Trevelyan has the option of stating that the supposedly quiet Ostwick Circle had serious problems, and a priest at Haven confirms that the Circle she served, which is none of the previous three, was pretty bad. Even the "overly permissive" Kinloch Hold engages in actions that are considered torture under the Geneva Conventions, actions which directly resulted in Anders's shaky mental state, once again causing the problem it was designed to prevent.
|
|
inherit
749
0
Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
3,653
Iddy
3,727
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on Dec 23, 2019 11:45:57 GMT
"Feared a bloodbath." Feared the loss of their power, you mean. I don't know how many times we have to rehash this point: THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN AND NEEDS A COMPLETE OVERHAUL EVEN IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT MAGE RIGHTS. Need I remind you who has power in this dynamic: drug addicts who are slowly going psychotic? Just like the Jedi Order, the Circles of Magi are set up to produce fall guys and scapegoats to justify the tactics of extremists and terrorists, putting EVERYONE in more danger from "out of control magic." And I do. Not. Give. A. Flying. FUCK. What abilities someone does or does not have. They are due the same personal rights as any other sentient being, lest the constant stress of imprisonment and threat of torture and death drive them to fulfill our fears to begin with. A mage needs a strong moral compass and stable emotional lives to resist demonic possession, right? They cannot have that in the Circle. By design. The Circles DO. NOT. WORK. The only reason they've persisted this long is because of the Chantry's brutality and stranglehold over the people's goodwill in Southern Thedas. What the Mages need right now is something noone in the history of Thedas has given them. Not the Evanuris, not the Imperium, not the Andrastians, not the Qunari. Being treated like normal people, judged solely on their actions. That's the moral aspect. What about the practical side? Someone's gotta deal with the angry mobs and the mages who turn bad. I'm not sure if regular city guards are prepared for the latter.
|
|
inherit
1274
0
3,016
sageoflife
1,412
August 2016
sageoflife
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by sageoflife on Dec 23, 2019 15:38:11 GMT
"Feared a bloodbath." Feared the loss of their power, you mean. I don't know how many times we have to rehash this point: THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN AND NEEDS A COMPLETE OVERHAUL EVEN IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT MAGE RIGHTS. Need I remind you who has power in this dynamic: drug addicts who are slowly going psychotic? Just like the Jedi Order, the Circles of Magi are set up to produce fall guys and scapegoats to justify the tactics of extremists and terrorists, putting EVERYONE in more danger from "out of control magic." And I do. Not. Give. A. Flying. FUCK. What abilities someone does or does not have. They are due the same personal rights as any other sentient being, lest the constant stress of imprisonment and threat of torture and death drive them to fulfill our fears to begin with. A mage needs a strong moral compass and stable emotional lives to resist demonic possession, right? They cannot have that in the Circle. By design. The Circles DO. NOT. WORK. The only reason they've persisted this long is because of the Chantry's brutality and stranglehold over the people's goodwill in Southern Thedas. What the Mages need right now is something noone in the history of Thedas has given them. Not the Evanuris, not the Imperium, not the Andrastians, not the Qunari. Being treated like normal people, judged solely on their actions. That's the moral aspect. What about the practical side? Someone's gotta deal with the angry mobs and the mages who turn bad. I'm not sure if regular city guards are prepared for the latter. That's an argument for the Templars continuing to exist even if they no longer have life-or-death power over mages as a whole. Maybe in conjunction with mages who are specially trained to fight their own kind; I imagine most would back down when threatened with a Mana Clash.
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 23, 2019 20:00:59 GMT
THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN AND NEEDS A COMPLETE OVERHAUL EVEN IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT MAGE RIGHTS. I support mage rights. I just don't believe that a mage's right of mobility should have precedence over a non-mage's right to life.
Need I remind you who has the most power: Walking nuclear bombs who can open portals to Hell with a papercut?
See, I can be biased as well. The Templars sacrifice their long term health in order to keep everyone safe from magic. They need lyrium because not everyone is a Player Character who can kill absolutely everything with zero problems.
You have that luxury because mages aren't real and you are never going to be hurt by one. The people of Thedas do not and thet absolutely give a flying fuck what abilities mages have. You don't get to make that choice for all of them.
That's objectively false. We have met lots of Circle mages who are stable people with strong moral compasses. Idealism is fine and all but a poor substitute for strong walls and sharp swords between the mages and the people. How do you hope to prevent mages from believing themselves superior to the rest of the world and maneuvering their abilities in order to place themselves in power? How do you save the people from an Abomination created in a town in the middle of nowhere? How do you prevent blood mages from controlling people's minds and then forcing them to forget?
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 23, 2019 20:05:08 GMT
That's an argument for the Templars continuing to exist even if they no longer have life-or-death power over mages as a whole. Maybe in conjunction with mages who are specially trained to fight their own kind; I imagine most would back down when threatened with a Mana Clash. An Abomination appears in a town where the closest Templar is three days of ride away. How does "Templars continuing to exist" helps then? A mage fancies a pretty woman but she refuses his attentions. He then uses blood magic to control her mind and forces her to forget the rape. How does "Templars continuing to exist" helps then?
Meanwhile, if an Abomination appears in the Circle, the Templars are five minutes away and can stop it without innocents dying in 99% of the cases. If someone like Jowan starts studying blood magic, words gets around and the Templars deal with him.
|
|
inherit
1274
0
3,016
sageoflife
1,412
August 2016
sageoflife
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by sageoflife on Dec 24, 2019 0:12:15 GMT
That's an argument for the Templars continuing to exist even if they no longer have life-or-death power over mages as a whole. Maybe in conjunction with mages who are specially trained to fight their own kind; I imagine most would back down when threatened with a Mana Clash. An Abomination appears in a town where the closest Templar is three days of ride away. How does "Templars continuing to exist" helps then? A mage fancies a pretty woman but she refuses his attentions. He then uses blood magic to control her mind and forces her to forget the rape. How does "Templars continuing to exist" helps then?
Meanwhile, if an Abomination appears in the Circle, the Templars are five minutes away and can stop it without innocents dying in 99% of the cases. If someone like Jowan starts studying blood magic, words gets around and the Templars deal with him.
Those things were all possible with the Circle in place. Kirkwall's Templars weren't inclined to do anything about Quentin; Meredith even disciplined the only Templar who was attempting to find him. At least in this case, with the Templars going through major restructuring to prevent the abuses they committed in the past, garrisons can be assigned to most major settlements to deal with problems you describe, more similar to a specialized police force than jailers. The foundation for such a system is already there as we see in Lothering, which had Templars but no Circle.
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 24, 2019 2:16:26 GMT
Those things were all possible with the Circle in place. Kirkwall's Templars weren't inclined to do anything about Quentin; Meredith even disciplined the only Templar who was attempting to find him. At least in this case, with the Templars going through major restructuring to prevent the abuses they committed in the past, garrisons can be assigned to most major settlements to deal with problems you describe, more similar to a specialized police force than jailers. The foundation for such a system is already there as we see in Lothering, which had Templars but no Circle. Your solution to problems created by mages outside of the Circle is to place yet more mages outside of the Circle?
Sure, some Quentins will always slip through the net but the solution to that is not to remove the net entirely. The issue here is not the absence of Templars in most major settlements since they're already there. The issue is the reduced reaction time of the Templars or whatever other anti-magic fighting force is tasked with dealing with these problems when free mages inevitably spread out over a wide area.
Look, even with the garrison that existed in Denerim, if an Abomination appears on the other side of the city, how many people will it kill before they even get there?
|
|
inherit
1274
0
3,016
sageoflife
1,412
August 2016
sageoflife
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by sageoflife on Dec 24, 2019 2:40:42 GMT
Those things were all possible with the Circle in place. Kirkwall's Templars weren't inclined to do anything about Quentin; Meredith even disciplined the only Templar who was attempting to find him. At least in this case, with the Templars going through major restructuring to prevent the abuses they committed in the past, garrisons can be assigned to most major settlements to deal with problems you describe, more similar to a specialized police force than jailers. The foundation for such a system is already there as we see in Lothering, which had Templars but no Circle. Your solution to problems created by mages outside of the Circle is to place yet more mages outside of the Circle?
Sure, some Quentins will always slip through the net but the solution to that is not to remove the net entirely. The issue here is not the absence of Templars in most major settlements since they're already there. The issue is the reduced reaction time of the Templars or whatever other anti-magic fighting force is tasked with dealing with these problems when free mages inevitably spread out over a wide area.
Look, even with the garrison that existed in Denerim, if an Abomination appears on the other side of the city, how many people will it kill before they even get there?
My solution is to not punish mages for crimes they have not committed, thus removing the resentment that causes many of the problems that the Circle is supposed to prevent. No one is talking about removing the net entirely. We're talking about restructuring the net so that it stops causing the problems it's meant to solve. There obviously need to be mechanisms to prevent the abuse of magic. Only the most die-hard Libertarians would dispute that. The problem is that the current mechanisms have failed to the point of being counter-productive. I assume that Denerim's Templars aren't all in one place at one time. And Lothering is not a major settlement.
|
|
Quickpaw
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Tuldabar
XBL Gamertag: Shadow Quickpaw
Posts: 452 Likes: 564
inherit
1429
0
564
Quickpaw
452
Sept 4, 2016 18:38:24 GMT
September 2016
quickpaw
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Tuldabar
Shadow Quickpaw
|
Post by Quickpaw on Dec 24, 2019 2:45:26 GMT
You assume Templars are the best defense against Abominations; best equipped and best trained. That is demonstrably false. Templars are trained and conditioned to control and kill non-hostile mages on behalf of the Andrastian power structure. Their zealotry and obedience are prioritised by their recruiters over a strong moral code. They are a political paramilitary hammer. Stop trying to pretend otherwise.
We cannot legally or ethically force parents to vaccinate their children, who have the potential to cause pandemics. There's your real world comparison. Anyone with the ability to communicate is possibly dangerous. Should we lock EVERYONE up?
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 24, 2024 14:59:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 24, 2019 2:47:59 GMT
Those things were all possible with the Circle in place. Kirkwall's Templars weren't inclined to do anything about Quentin; Meredith even disciplined the only Templar who was attempting to find him. At least in this case, with the Templars going through major restructuring to prevent the abuses they committed in the past, garrisons can be assigned to most major settlements to deal with problems you describe, more similar to a specialized police force than jailers. The foundation for such a system is already there as we see in Lothering, which had Templars but no Circle. Your solution to problems created by mages outside of the Circle is to place yet more mages outside of the Circle?
Sure, some Quentins will always slip through the net but the solution to that is not to remove the net entirely. The issue here is not the absence of Templars in most major settlements since they're already there. The issue is the reduced reaction time of the Templars or whatever other anti-magic fighting force is tasked with dealing with these problems when free mages inevitably spread out over a wide area.
Look, even with the garrison that existed in Denerim, if an Abomination appears on the other side of the city, how many people will it kill before they even get there? In the WHOLE Ferelden only one-two Circle(s) exists. (Nobody mentions more...) What if something happens sway from Redcliffe, and from the larger nodes where they can be lesser Templar garrisons? The Templars locked to the Circle to watch the imprisoned mages are absolutely useless to handle the problems. The Circle only able to cause problems, not to solve them – not even the problems caused by the system, for example Connor... And back to Quentin... just a question... he was in the Circle, when his wife died?
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 23, 2024 17:30:54 GMT
30,246
Hanako Ikezawa
22,353
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 24, 2019 3:08:41 GMT
You assume Templars are the best defense against Abominations; best equipped and best trained. That is demonstrably false. Templars are trained and conditioned to control and kill non-hostile mages on behalf of the Andrastian power structure. Their zealotry and obedience are prioritised by their recruiters over a strong moral code. They are a political paramilitary hammer. Stop trying to pretend otherwise. We cannot legally or ethically force parents to vaccinate their children, who have the potential to cause pandemics. There's your real world comparison. Anyone with the ability to communicate is possibly dangerous. Should we lock EVERYONE up? Sure you can’t force those parents to vaccinate their children, but their children shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near other kids and if they get them sick the parents should be held responsible.
|
|
Quickpaw
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Tuldabar
XBL Gamertag: Shadow Quickpaw
Posts: 452 Likes: 564
inherit
1429
0
564
Quickpaw
452
Sept 4, 2016 18:38:24 GMT
September 2016
quickpaw
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Tuldabar
Shadow Quickpaw
|
Post by Quickpaw on Dec 24, 2019 3:19:58 GMT
Sure you can’t force those parents to vaccinate their children, but their children shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near other kids and if they get them sick the parents should be held responsible. Quarenteening in this case is more or less left up to specific jurisdiction and discretion, but we cannot forcibly remove such cases from parental custody to another location was more my point. We have multiple studies on the sustained emotional trauma kids go through when forcibly separated from their parental unit (for any reason), so what do you think happens when a mage child is imprisoned in a Circle Tower? Stress upon stress upon stress, making possession MORE likely and putting MORE people in danger, not less. As for abominations specifically, this may simply be lore-gameplay segregation but I don't think I've ever seen an abomination type attacker use anything other than melee. No spells at all, just charging in and swiping with their claws. I do grant, however, that Revenants, Arcane Horrors, walking corpses etc. also count under the "abomination" banner. But even then, the actual best means of dealing with such creatures and blood mages too (in terms of lore) is ranged attacks, keeping your distance and catching them off guard. Only inexperienced circle-trained mages seem vulnerable to a Templar/Seeker's magic canceling abilities, which is telling.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 23, 2024 17:30:54 GMT
30,246
Hanako Ikezawa
22,353
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 24, 2019 3:55:22 GMT
Sure you can’t force those parents to vaccinate their children, but their children shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near other kids and if they get them sick the parents should be held responsible. Quarenteening in this case is more or less left up to specific jurisdiction and discretion, but we cannot forcibly remove such cases from parental custody to another location was more my point. We have multiple studies on the sustained emotional trauma kids go through when forcibly separated from their parental unit (for any reason), so what do you think happens when a mage child is imprisoned in a Circle Tower? Stress upon stress upon stress, making possession MORE likely and putting MORE people in danger, not less. As for abominations specifically, this may simply be lore-gameplay segregation but I don't think I've ever seen an abomination type attacker use anything other than melee. No spells at all, just charging in and swiping with their claws. I do grant, however, that Revenants, Arcane Horrors, walking corpses etc. also count under the "abomination" banner. But even then, the actual best means of dealing with such creatures and blood mages too (in terms of lore) is ranged attacks, keeping your distance and catching them off guard. Only inexperienced circle-trained mages seem vulnerable to a Templar/Seeker's magic canceling abilities, which is telling. Why can’t we? Those parents are recklessly endangering their own children, in a sense abusing them, and of course the countless others who could be affected by their decision. Depending on the reason, either save the kids from the parents or isolate the entire family. I agree with you about the stress, hence why in my suggestions there are always things like unlimited family visits and making it as comfortable as possible. As for the rest, it is a case of gameplay-lore segregation. In the lore abominations do a lot more, and take a lot more to put them down.
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 24, 2019 14:14:38 GMT
My solution is to not punish mages for crimes they have not committed, thus removing the resentment that causes many of the problems that the Circle is supposed to prevent. No one is talking about removing the net entirely. We're talking about restructuring the net so that it stops causing the problems it's meant to solve. There obviously need to be mechanisms to prevent the abuse of magic. Only the most die-hard Libertarians would dispute that. The problem is that the current mechanisms have failed to the point of being counter-productive. I assume that Denerim's Templars aren't all in one place at one time. And Lothering is not a major settlement. That's very vague. I don't think that anyone would disagree with the notion that collective punishments are wrong although I, for one, don't consider the Circle to be a punishment any more than Quarantining a population with an highly infectious disease would be.
But, regardless, this is just a statement on what we should not do, not a solution. So, what do you think should be done? How would you keep people safe?
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 24, 2019 14:25:09 GMT
You assume Templars are the best defense against Abominations; best equipped and best trained. That is demonstrably false. Templars are trained and conditioned to control and kill non-hostile mages on behalf of the Andrastian power structure.Only inexperienced circle-trained mages seem vulnerable to a Templar/Seeker's magic canceling abilities, which is telling Ok, now this is just letting your bias take you down the road of absurdity. Literally every single piece of Dragon Age lore tells us that Templars have the ability to deny magic; that they are the best fighting force against mages and Abominations. I can't hunt down every single last one, today of all days, but here are a few off the top of my mind:
1-Of the Grey Wardens that hunted down Abomination Anders, only the Templar survived the magic he sent against them. 2-Evangeline stopped the mage that tried to assassinate the Divine from using normal magic which is why he resorted to blood magic. She then killed him by herself and he was an Enchanter 3- Literally everything involving Ser Barris. 4-Meredith disrupted the Saarebas magic and then killed him in the finale of Act 2. 5-This piece of lore. 6-In the comics, when Magister Titus tries to use magic against Alistair, he uses his Templar abilities, at which point Titus says that "He is a Templar", sends his Soporati bodyguards against Alistair&Co and gets runs away as fast as his legs can carry him.
None of which means that they are not effective against magic.
This is an argument against how they are used, not why.
We can and should. What we cannot is put people's lives at danger just because the ignorant are afraid.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 24, 2024 14:59:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 24, 2019 14:40:30 GMT
You assume Templars are the best defense against Abominations; best equipped and best trained. That is demonstrably false. Templars are trained and conditioned to control and kill non-hostile mages on behalf of the Andrastian power structure.Only inexperienced circle-trained mages seem vulnerable to a Templar/Seeker's magic canceling abilities, which is telling Ok, now this is just letting your bias take you down the road of absurdity. Literally every single piece of Dragon Age lore tells us that Templars have the ability to deny magic; that they are the best fighting force against mages and Abominations. I can't hunt down every single last one, today of all days, but here are a few off the top of my mind:
1-Of the Grey Wardens that hunted down Abomination Anders, only the Templar survived the magic he sent against them. 2-Evangeline stopped the mage that tried to assassinate the Divine from using normal magic which is why he resorted to blood magic. She then killed him by herself and he was an Enchanter 3- Literally everything involving Ser Barris. 4-Meredith disrupted the Saarebas magic and then killed him in the finale of Act 2. 5-This piece of lore.
None of which means that they are not effective against magic.
This is an argument against how they are used, not why.
We can and should. What we cannot is put people's lives at danger just because the ignorant are afraid. The Templars have anti-magical abilities, but also the mages, and the mages are more flexible (without lyrium addiction) – and they're stronger than the Templars, obviously (only they're rare). In the Clanhad Tower, the Templars failed, but Wynne with a few mages was able to protect the children and apprentices. Nobody survived Anders/Justice's attack, when he escaped. I just say.
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 24, 2019 14:51:16 GMT
Ask the elves how happy they are with the human's ability to police themselves.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 24, 2024 14:59:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 24, 2019 14:52:52 GMT
Ask the elves how happy they are with the human's ability to police themselves. Yes. We should lock every human. Of course!
|
|
inherit
1274
0
3,016
sageoflife
1,412
August 2016
sageoflife
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by sageoflife on Dec 24, 2019 20:50:03 GMT
My solution is to not punish mages for crimes they have not committed, thus removing the resentment that causes many of the problems that the Circle is supposed to prevent. No one is talking about removing the net entirely. We're talking about restructuring the net so that it stops causing the problems it's meant to solve. There obviously need to be mechanisms to prevent the abuse of magic. Only the most die-hard Libertarians would dispute that. The problem is that the current mechanisms have failed to the point of being counter-productive. I assume that Denerim's Templars aren't all in one place at one time. And Lothering is not a major settlement. That's very vague. I don't think that anyone would disagree with the notion that collective punishments are wrong although I, for one, don't consider the Circle to be a punishment any more than Quarantining a population with an highly infectious disease would be.
But, regardless, this is just a statement on what we should not do, not a solution. So, what do you think should be done? How would you keep people safe? I already explained how we would keep people safe.
|
|
Quickpaw
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Tuldabar
XBL Gamertag: Shadow Quickpaw
Posts: 452 Likes: 564
inherit
1429
0
564
Quickpaw
452
Sept 4, 2016 18:38:24 GMT
September 2016
quickpaw
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Tuldabar
Shadow Quickpaw
|
Post by Quickpaw on Dec 26, 2019 4:20:34 GMT
Ok, now this is just letting your bias take you down the road of absurdity. Literally every single piece of Dragon Age lore tells us that Templars have the ability to deny magic; that they are the best fighting force against mages and Abominations. I can't hunt down every single last one, today of all days, but here are a few off the top of my mind:
1-Of the Grey Wardens that hunted down Abomination Anders, only the Templar survived the magic he sent against them. 2-Evangeline stopped the mage that tried to assassinate the Divine from using normal magic which is why he resorted to blood magic. She then killed him by herself and he was an Enchanter 3- Literally everything involving Ser Barris. 4-Meredith disrupted the Saarebas magic and then killed him in the finale of Act 2. 5-This piece of lore. 6-In the comics, when Magister Titus tries to use magic against Alistair, he uses his Templar abilities, at which point Titus says that "He is a Templar", sends his Soporati bodyguards against Alistair&Co and gets runs away as fast as his legs can carry him. None of which means that they are not effective against magic. This is an argument against how they are used, not why. We can and should. What we cannot is put people's lives at danger just because the ignorant are afraid. Okay look, I'm done fighting with you on this. Both our viewpoints are supported by the lore, and it's clear neither of us is convincing the other. As for the last part, no we can't. We cannot legally enter someone's house and vaccinate them/their kids without their consent. That's not a thing, nor should it be. In America we have this concept called "bodily autonomy." We can't force someone to donate tissue to a dying patient, not even a corpse (if they haven't filed for organ donorship).
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,492
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Dec 26, 2019 14:41:37 GMT
No, it was the second one that Wynne convinced them not to vote on. It's explicitly stated that many mages resent her for this, especially since all it did was open them up to more abuses from the Templars. It was the mages who agreed to join the Chantry in the first place under the agreement that the Chantry would fulfill certain obligations. The Chantry failed to do that in spectacular fashion, so the mages rightly considered the agreement null and void. The Chantry stripped them of that right for a crime they didn't commit. The first vote lost by majority, and even Anders thought the attempt was idiotic due to not having seen Kirkwall yet. So, you claim that you don't think fear and respect are synonyms, then you turn around and describe them as being the same thing. Which is it? You don't get to have it both ways. Just like you don't get to have it both ways when claiming that the Circles don't actually constitute slavery even though your own words meet the literal definition. A concentration camp is also an accurate descriptor of what you described as acceptable treatment. Connor ended up inviting a demon because the system as it existed left his mother terrified of being separated from her child for the rest of their lives. That's just one of many examples of the Circle creating the problem it's meant to prevent. If the Circle worked differently Isolde wouldn't have stood in the way of Connor getting the training he needed. Another is Meredith Stannard, whose parents hid her for the same reason Isolde did, and who only turned into an abomination when the Templars were literally on the family's doorstep. Deciding that it doesn't matter that mages have the same hearts as everyone else is exactly what caused the system to fail. Mages found themselves unilaterally punished for crimes they did not commit. If the Templars had remembered that mages are people, they would have realized that this would only breed resentment and further unrest, thus once again causing the problems the Circle is meant to prevent. The only reason the Circle lasted as long as it did is because of coverups by the Seekers. It only took the Templars twenty-five years to start abusing the Right of Annulment. The only reason the rebellion didn't start then is because the Seekers made sure no one knew about it. The only reason rebellion was triggered by the Annulment of the Gallows is because Anders's actions prevented the Seekers from covering it up as they did the Annulment of the Antiva City Circle. And you are once again advocating for punishment for crimes committed by others, which is the ultimate source of the resentment that finally led to open revolt. Just because other people have it bad doesn't mean that what happens to the mages is right. Oppression is not a zero-sum game. And the abuses aren't isolated. The very nature of the system allows and encourages them. Cole says that the White Spire was nearly as bad as the Gallows, Trevelyan has the option of stating that the supposedly quiet Ostwick Circle had serious problems, and a priest at Haven confirms that the Circle she served, which is none of the previous three, was pretty bad. Even the "overly permissive" Kinloch Hold engages in actions that are considered torture under the Geneva Conventions, actions which directly resulted in Anders's shaky mental state, once again causing the problem it was designed to prevent. Okay, now you're changing what you're saying from "Wynne convinced them to vote not to go to war", which she did during the first vote but not the second as you've been claiming, to "Wynne convinced them not to vote at all". I give up. Also In what world is two things overlapping the same thing as them being synonymous? In what world is arguing something being hypothetically ethical under very specific circumstances that have nothing to do with the world we actually live in the same as endorsing that in real life? In what world is judging one thing more important than another the same thing as deciding that the second thing doesn't matter at all? It's pretty obvious that you're more interested in moralizing at the empty air than you are in having any kind of conversation, because you've ceased to actually read what I'm writing. "Oppression isn't a zero-sum game" isn't an argument for expecting a perfectly enlightened and regulated prison/school system to suddenly manifest in Thedas' middle ages. It's never going to happen, we still haven't succeed in making it happen, and wanting to tear down the Circle of Magi for not living up to that expectation is a reflection on your unrealistic views, not the system failing irredeemably. And if we aren't in disagreement about the mages needing some oversight to keep the world safe from them then the problem isn't that you don't like the Templars, it's that you want to throw the Templars out before having a fully realized and developed alternative on hand rather than after. I'm all for mages looking after themselves as an idea, provided that the proposed system has been tested, developed and proven extensively on both a small and medium scale before betting Thedas' existence on it, and that there's a good and grounded plan for getting from here to there. And betting Thedas' existence on it without putting any real thought or precaution into the notion because the Templars are oh so evul that anything must be better is pretty much all I've been hearing. I don't know if you're a student of history, but "screw this shit, I bet we can improvise something better!" hasn't tended to work out too well for people, ever. And the stakes for this hypothetical conflict are much higher than they've ever been for anything on Earth.
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 26, 2019 17:26:54 GMT
Okay look, I'm done fighting with you on this. Both our viewpoints are supported by the lore, and it's clear neither of us is convincing the other. But your viewpoint is not supported by the lore. In fact, it specifically goes against it, as evidenced by the examples I presented. My inability to convince you that you're wrong, doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. Templars are, demonstrably, Thedas' best weapon against mages and demons.
If instead you want to argue that the Templars are used more as the Chantry's tool against peaceful mages, that's something else entirely. I wouldn't agree but I'd acknowledge that it's a valid viewpoint to take.
A quick google search tells me that bot the Federal Government and the States have the right to Quarantine people if they show signs of infectious diseases that are a threat to the public good. Like the mages are. Hence why they're quarantined.
|
|
melbella
N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 7,914 Likes: 24,205
inherit
214
0
Apr 24, 2024 12:03:36 GMT
24,205
melbella
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
7,914
August 2016
melbella
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
melbella
2186
5778
|
Post by melbella on Dec 26, 2019 18:18:01 GMT
A quick google search tells me that bot the Federal Government and the States have the right to Quarantine people if they show signs of infectious diseases that are a threat to the public good. Like the mages are. Hence why they're quarantined. If mages infected other people with a deadly disease just by being in close proximity to them, that might be a valid comparison.
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 26, 2019 18:40:19 GMT
A quick google search tells me that bot the Federal Government and the States have the right to Quarantine people if they show signs of infectious diseases that are a threat to the public good. Like the mages are. Hence why they're quarantined. If mages infected other people with a deadly disease just by being in close proximity to them, that might be a valid comparison.
They do. Consider the having magic itself as the disease's Incubation period. At this point, the infected person may or may not be infectious, just like a mage may or may not abuse her powers. But if the mage becomes an Abomination, then the disease has reached its Communicable period where they will kill everyone around them.
|
|