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Post by Sonya on Dec 26, 2019 21:11:50 GMT
And back to Quentin... just a question... he was in the Circle, when his wife died? after he escaped the circle and very soon after their meeting she died, so he turned into a mad butcher (who happened to be a mage). They do. Consider the having magic itself as the disease's Incubation period. At this point, the infected person may or may not be infectious, just like a mage may or may not abuse her powers. But if the mage becomes an Abomination, then the disease has reached its Communicable period where they will kill everyone around them. Add BMs like Grace with her BM buddies covering up their corruption (disease - BM lying to you). After what they have done instead of being executed they just freely were walking around the gallows corrupting/seducing (or like an analogy - infecting) others (in Grace case Templars were not doing their job, just turned into some thugs and forgot they have to protect people).
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 26, 2019 21:52:55 GMT
They do. Consider the having magic itself as the disease's Incubation period. At this point, the infected person may or may not be infectious, just like a mage may or may not abuse her powers. But if the mage becomes an Abomination, then the disease has reached its Communicable period where they will kill everyone around them. An elegant analogy. With magic, like bacteria, operating by so weird and unpredictable rules that there's no reliable way to contain them short of complete isolation. And it works on the larger scale too, when the disease combined with the wrong practical or socioeconomic circumstances causes a chain reaction and lays waste to entire regions, and potentially everyone everywhere. We've always been more vulnerable to that than we like to imagine, and so few understand the actual dangers that it's barely even in the mainstream consciousness until all buffers are gone and disaster is already striking.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 26, 2019 22:13:05 GMT
And back to Quentin... just a question... he was in the Circle, when his wife died? after he escaped the circle and very soon after their meeting she died, so he turned into a mad butcher (who happened to be a mage). They do. Consider the having magic itself as the disease's Incubation period. At this point, the infected person may or may not be infectious, just like a mage may or may not abuse her powers. But if the mage becomes an Abomination, then the disease has reached its Communicable period where they will kill everyone around them. Add BMs like Grace with her BM buddies covering up their corruption (disease - BM lying to you). After what they have done instead of being executed they just freely were walking around the gallows corrupting/seducing (or like an analogy - infecting) others (in Grace case Templars were not doing their job, just turned into some thugs and forgot they have to protect people). Ty. I found that part in World of Thedas. ___ Grace didn't have to seduce Thrask – he and the others just weren't corrupted like the others. Thrask just was a good Templar. Grace was a vengeful person. But if she didn't want to revenge on Hawke for Decimus, she and the others just wanted to escape from that horror place. Why it's so impossible, that Thrask just wanted to do what he thought his duty? Cullen said, Thrask warned him. But he did nothing against Meredith. Grace and the Starkhaven mages not just "walking freely" at the prison yard (freely, at the prison yard, oh yes...), but Meredith randomly executed Starkhaven mages to keep the others in fear. Meredith's Templars mob raped them (oh, of course she didn't know about anything – like she didn't know about Karl, and the other Tranquils, Cullen probably lies in the Inqusition!) But if it that possible (to keep in charm the Templars for days, weeks, months perhaps...) then why the Circles exist? More dangerous than without it... the blood mages can have an obedient and very skilled, trained army... everything what they need, in one place, gathered... they just have to open the door, and to conquer the world... why they just escaped? Because it's not that easy? And because most of the mages don't want to rule the world just live?
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Post by Catilina on Dec 26, 2019 22:14:34 GMT
They do. Consider the having magic itself as the disease's Incubation period. At this point, the infected person may or may not be infectious, just like a mage may or may not abuse her powers. But if the mage becomes an Abomination, then the disease has reached its Communicable period where they will kill everyone around them. An elegant analogy. With magic, like bacteria, operating by so weird and unpredictable rules that there's no reliable way to contain them short of complete isolation. And it works on the larger scale too, when the disease combined with the wrong practical or socioeconomic circumstances causes a chain reaction and lays waste to entire regions, and potentially everyone everywhere. We've always been more vulnerable to that than we like to imagine, and so few understand the actual dangers that it's barely even in the mainstream consciousness until all buffers are gone and disaster is already striking. Tevinter doesn't exist already then. Good to know, it just Qunari lie...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 26, 2019 22:16:52 GMT
after he escaped the circle and very soon after their meeting she died, so he turned into a mad butcher (who happened to be a mage).
Add BMs like Grace with her BM buddies covering up their corruption (disease - BM lying to you). After what they have done instead of being executed they just freely were walking around the gallows corrupting/seducing (or like an analogy - infecting) others (in Grace case Templars were not doing their job, just turned into some thugs and forgot they have to protect people). Ty. I found that part in World of Thedas. ___ Grace didn't have to seduce Thrask – he and the others just weren't corrupted like the others. Thrask just was a good Templar. Grace was a vengeful person. But if she didn't want to revenge on Hawke for Decimus Being a good Templar involves kidnapping innocent people? I thought that’s what you hated about the bad Templars. And yes Grace wanted revenge on Hawke, hence kidnapping the person closest to them.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 26, 2019 22:27:27 GMT
No, it was the second one that Wynne convinced them not to vote on. It's explicitly stated that many mages resent her for this, especially since all it did was open them up to more abuses from the Templars. It was the mages who agreed to join the Chantry in the first place under the agreement that the Chantry would fulfill certain obligations. The Chantry failed to do that in spectacular fashion, so the mages rightly considered the agreement null and void. The Chantry stripped them of that right for a crime they didn't commit. The first vote lost by majority, and even Anders thought the attempt was idiotic due to not having seen Kirkwall yet. So, you claim that you don't think fear and respect are synonyms, then you turn around and describe them as being the same thing. Which is it? You don't get to have it both ways. Just like you don't get to have it both ways when claiming that the Circles don't actually constitute slavery even though your own words meet the literal definition. A concentration camp is also an accurate descriptor of what you described as acceptable treatment. Connor ended up inviting a demon because the system as it existed left his mother terrified of being separated from her child for the rest of their lives. That's just one of many examples of the Circle creating the problem it's meant to prevent. If the Circle worked differently Isolde wouldn't have stood in the way of Connor getting the training he needed. Another is Meredith Stannard, whose parents hid her for the same reason Isolde did, and who only turned into an abomination when the Templars were literally on the family's doorstep. Deciding that it doesn't matter that mages have the same hearts as everyone else is exactly what caused the system to fail. Mages found themselves unilaterally punished for crimes they did not commit. If the Templars had remembered that mages are people, they would have realized that this would only breed resentment and further unrest, thus once again causing the problems the Circle is meant to prevent. The only reason the Circle lasted as long as it did is because of coverups by the Seekers. It only took the Templars twenty-five years to start abusing the Right of Annulment. The only reason the rebellion didn't start then is because the Seekers made sure no one knew about it. The only reason rebellion was triggered by the Annulment of the Gallows is because Anders's actions prevented the Seekers from covering it up as they did the Annulment of the Antiva City Circle. And you are once again advocating for punishment for crimes committed by others, which is the ultimate source of the resentment that finally led to open revolt. Just because other people have it bad doesn't mean that what happens to the mages is right. Oppression is not a zero-sum game. And the abuses aren't isolated. The very nature of the system allows and encourages them. Cole says that the White Spire was nearly as bad as the Gallows, Trevelyan has the option of stating that the supposedly quiet Ostwick Circle had serious problems, and a priest at Haven confirms that the Circle she served, which is none of the previous three, was pretty bad. Even the "overly permissive" Kinloch Hold engages in actions that are considered torture under the Geneva Conventions, actions which directly resulted in Anders's shaky mental state, once again causing the problem it was designed to prevent. Okay, now you're changing what you're saying from "Wynne convinced them to vote not to go to war", which she did during the first vote but not the second as you've been claiming, to "Wynne convinced them not to vote at all". I give up. Also In what world is two things overlapping the same thing as them being synonymous? In what world is arguing something being hypothetically ethical under very specific circumstances that have nothing to do with the world we actually live in the same as endorsing that in real life? In what world is judging one thing more important than another the same thing as deciding that the second thing doesn't matter at all? It's pretty obvious that you're more interested in moralizing at the empty air than you are in having any kind of conversation, because you've ceased to actually read what I'm writing. "Oppression isn't a zero-sum game" isn't an argument for expecting a perfectly enlightened and regulated prison/school system to suddenly manifest in Thedas' middle ages. It's never going to happen, we still haven't succeed in making it happen, and wanting to tear down the Circle of Magi for not living up to that expectation is a reflection on your unrealistic views, not the system failing irredeemably. And if we aren't in disagreement about the mages needing some oversight to keep the world safe from them then the problem isn't that you don't like the Templars, it's that you want to throw the Templars out before having a fully realized and developed alternative on hand rather than after. I'm all for mages looking after themselves as an idea, provided that the proposed system has been tested, developed and proven extensively on both a small and medium scale before betting Thedas' existence on it, and that there's a good and grounded plan for getting from here to there. And betting Thedas' existence on it without putting any real thought or precaution into the notion because the Templars are oh so evul that anything must be better is pretty much all I've been hearing. I don't know if you're a student of history, but "screw this shit, I bet we can improvise something better!" hasn't tended to work out too well for people, ever. And the stakes for this hypothetical conflict are much higher than they've ever been for anything on Earth. I didn't change what I said at all. Accusing the other of not listening to what you're saying is a common tactic when someone realizes that their arguments have no merit. "Oppression isn't a zero-sum game" refers to your argument that the mages just shouldn't object to anything at all because other people have it bad to. The problems faced by elves and peasants have no bearing on the problems facing the mages. Pointing to those problems is a classic "what about-ism" fallacy. Getting rid of the Templars needs to be the first step because the Templars themselves won't allow any change, even as they keep causing the problems they're supposed to prevent. That's why there was a war in the first place. Now who hasn't been listening to what others are saying? It's because I've studied history that I know that unilaterally declaring that a group of people should not actually be treated as people only ends in tragedy and abuse. It protects no one at all.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 26, 2019 22:29:23 GMT
Ty. I found that part in World of Thedas. ___ Grace didn't have to seduce Thrask – he and the others just weren't corrupted like the others. Thrask just was a good Templar. Grace was a vengeful person. But if she didn't want to revenge on Hawke for Decimus Being a good Templar involves kidnapping innocent people? I thought that’s what you hated about the bad Templars. And yes Grace wanted revenge on Hawke, hence kidnapping the person closest to them. Yes, Thrask was one of the best Templars. Despite the outcome.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 26, 2019 22:32:58 GMT
Being a good Templar involves kidnapping innocent people? I thought that’s what you hated about the bad Templars. And yes Grace wanted revenge on Hawke, hence kidnapping the person closest to them. Yes, Thrask was one of the best Templars. Despite the outcome. Wow, good to know that you think kidnapping innocent people and threatening to kill them is a good thing. Then again you think that about mass murder so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 26, 2019 22:35:20 GMT
Yes, Thrask was one of the best Templars. Despite the outcome. Wow, good to know that you think kidnapping innocent people and threatening to kill them is a good thing. Then again you think that about mass murder so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. You understand the Tranquility, Justinia (about Pharamond), Elthina, I don't have to explain you anything.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Dec 26, 2019 23:08:39 GMT
Ty. I found that part in World of Thedas. ___ Grace didn't have to seduce Thrask – he and the others just weren't corrupted like the others. Thrask just was a good Templar. Grace was a vengeful person. But if she didn't want to revenge on Hawke for Decimus Being a good Templar involves kidnapping innocent people? I thought that’s what you hated about the bad Templars. And yes Grace wanted revenge on Hawke, hence kidnapping the person closest to them. If Thrask isn't one of the better templars to consider, which one will qualify then... Thrask and Emeric (and with him, Moira perhaps) are pretty much the only named fully-trained DA2 templars that are neither abusive elitists (Karras, Alrik, Meredith, that woman harrassing the Dalish) nor behaving like assholes (Cullen). Yes, the kidnapping plan was pretty idiotic, even if just as a case of too dumb too live, as Hawke wold have just slain them anyway. On the other hand, the conspiracy apparently did not knew which side Hawke was on and assumed Hawke was on Meredith's payroll - the writers could have tied the Act3 intro stance to it though. Thrask and his conspiracy attempted to oust Meredith, not start Tevinter 2.0 or whatever some are inclined to believe, and the fact that both circle mages and templars worked together serves to show how awkward the situation had become. I see no indication that Grace mind-controlled anyone. Thrask pretty much opposes her raging idiocy at the WC, and she honestly lacks the patience to come up with some long-term plan. As far as I'm considered, that conspiracy could have led to some sort of compromise (at least getting rid of Meredith perhaps) if it weren't for idiots like Grace, or Hawke being shoehorned into playing inquisition on behalf of Meredith or Orsino. ... That vaccination analogy failed when someone (mithras?) pulled it pages ago, and this mutually assuring disease talk is what I consider "moronic" (since that term is apparently allowed now). That whole nine yards about being a diseased monster afflicted with the curse-gift of some unholy corruption-ultimate-evil-whatever is the reason, besides claimed divine entitlement, for me opposing any chantry-affiliated group policing magic.
Shall I finally invoke Goodwin's law or will someone else do it? To be fair, we had a bin Laden comparison a while ago. That might already qualify. ...
Ask the elves how happy they are with the human's ability to police themselves. Spoken by someone who appeared to defend most instances of BS the Chantry ever did, at least to me. Sorry, but I can't help but laugh about this. On the other hand... I'm all in for raising a force of elves which mercilessly hunts down everyone who appears to speak badly about them, which would cover all chantry priests, most templars and nobles and countless peasants.
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Post by Sonya on Dec 26, 2019 23:24:57 GMT
Grace and the Starkhaven mages not just "walking freely" at the prison yard (freely, at the prison yard, oh yes...), but Meredith randomly executed Starkhaven mages to keep the others in fear. Meredith's Templars mob raped them (oh, of course she didn't know about anything – like she didn't know about Karl, and the other Tranquils, Cullen probably lies in the Inqusition!) Every time I end up in the gallows I see Grace. So yes, she is freely walking in the gallows. As you truely mentioned, she is a vengeful person, a lier, a murderer + abomination = dangerous combination. Grace was an example of how such people as she could influence others, in other words she is infection, bacteria - and you won't see that bacteria coming unless it is too late as Noxluxe and mythras wrote. She ia an example. One of many (TO BE CLEAR AGAIN: examples of bad people who happened to be mages, like that butcher who killed Hawke's mother - he is a murderder who happened to be a mage; he could be a templar as well or just some random shy person). And btw, when you return to Thrask you have several fights with undead. How do you think who raised them and why, considering Grace with others were BMs indeed and ASKED to kill Thrask, but Hawke told "no, I will convince him", even after that Grace expressed her doubts and then "OK, I trust you". She is a fucking lying vengeful bitch, an example how things can go really wrong (as mentioned already). Thrask was good and bad templar at the same time. As a person and a templar he tried to make the world better according to his own vision of that world, but at the same time he was an idiot who had already lost his own daughter to BM (and she practiced BM and turned out to be a weak person to handle it, Thrask even told that he was weak and should have made her return to the circle - even if it was the worst circle). Thrask agreed to kidnap an innocent person no matter who you side with. Again, a person, a templar with exp-ce, can't be THAT stupide. Even if he opposed the idea of kipnapping, who knows, maybe Grace influenced his mind as we know BMs can do that and Grace was capable of anything. But if Thrask indeed agreed for kidnapping - he is a moron indeed IMO. But if it that possible (to keep in charm the Templars for days, weeks, months perhaps...) then why the Circles exist? More dangerous than without it... the blood mages can have an obedient and very skilled, trained army... everything what they need, in one place, gathered... they just have to open the door, and to conquer the world... why they just escaped? They just escaped because the game plot needed them escape, nothing else. If not for the plot, Grace would have tried to kill Hawke and his/her friends a long time ago as she is a vengeful abomination. But the plot demanded. Period. About Cullen. Why Cullen did nothing we can hear in DAI his dialogues what/why/where etc. If I am not mistaken, Cullen was made LI on request from his fans? And thus we can hear why he did or did not this or that as his redemption and that his fans could be happy about that(but the fact of DAO events I can't deny - not many people could even forget such torture). But in general when I play DA2 every time I talk to Cullen I want to punch him becuse of some of his dialogue there. And because most of the mages don't want to rule the world just live? Pretty sure some mages as well as some peasants want to rule the world. People want to live in peace, that peace should be accomplished somehow. Thus we need reforms. Still waiting the results of DAI reforms in DA4. Again these circles (this remark is not about mage circles just to be clear).
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N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Dec 27, 2019 0:04:24 GMT
Grace wanted revenge on Hawke, hence kidnapping the person closest to them.
Technical question: if the sibling dies in the Deep Roads and Hawke doesn't romance anyone, who gets kidnapped?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 27, 2019 0:10:43 GMT
Grace wanted revenge on Hawke, hence kidnapping the person closest to them.
Technical question: if the sibling dies in the Deep Roads and Hawke doesn't romance anyone, who gets kidnapped?
The person with the highest Friendship points.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 27, 2019 0:30:13 GMT
Grace and the Starkhaven mages not just "walking freely" at the prison yard (freely, at the prison yard, oh yes...), but Meredith randomly executed Starkhaven mages to keep the others in fear. Meredith's Templars mob raped them (oh, of course she didn't know about anything – like she didn't know about Karl, and the other Tranquils, Cullen probably lies in the Inqusition!) Every time I end up in the gallows I see Grace. So yes, she is freely walking in the gallows. As you truely mentioned, she is a vengeful person, a lier, a murderer + abomination = dangerous combination. Grace was an example of how such people as she could influence others, in other words she is infection, bacteria - and you won't see that bacteria coming unless it is too late as Noxluxe and mythras wrote. She ia an example. One of many (TO BE CLEAR AGAIN: examples of bad people who happened to be mages, like that butcher who killed Hawke's mother - he is a murderder who happened to be a mage; he could be a templar as well or just some random shy person). And btw, when you return to Thrask you have several fights with undead. How do you think who raised them and why, considering Grace with others were BMs indeed and ASKED to kill Thrask, but Hawke told "no, I will convince him", even after that Grace expressed her doubts and then "OK, I trust you". She is a fucking lying vengeful bitch, an example how things can go really wrong (as mentioned already). Thrask was good and bad templar at the same time. As a person and a templar he tried to make the world better according to his own vision of that world, but at the same time he was an idiot who had already lost his own daughter to BM (and she practiced BM and turned out to be a weak person to handle it, Thrask even told that he was weak and should have made her return to the circle - even if it was the worst circle). Thrask agreed to kidnap an innocent person no matter who you side with. Again, a person, a templar with exp-ce, can't be THAT stupide. Even if he opposed the idea of kipnapping, who knows, maybe Grace influenced his mind as we know BMs can do that and Grace was capable of anything. But if Thrask indeed agreed for kidnapping - he is a moron indeed IMO. But if it that possible (to keep in charm the Templars for days, weeks, months perhaps...) then why the Circles exist? More dangerous than without it... the blood mages can have an obedient and very skilled, trained army... everything what they need, in one place, gathered... they just have to open the door, and to conquer the world... why they just escaped? They just escaped because the game plot needed them escape, nothing else. If not for the plot, Grace would have tried to kill Hawke and his/her friends a long time ago as she is a vengeful abomination. But the plot demanded. Period. About Cullen. Why Cullen did nothing we can hear in DAI his dialogues what/why/where etc. If I am not mistaken, Cullen was made LI on request from his fans? And thus we can hear why he did or did not this or that as his redemption and that his fans could be happy about that(but the fact of DAO events I can't deny - not many people could even forget such torture). But in general when I play DA2 every time I talk to Cullen I want to punch him becuse of some of his dialogue there. And because most of the mages don't want to rule the world just live? Pretty sure some mages as well as some peasants want to rule the world. People want to live in peace, that peace should be accomplished somehow. Thus we need reforms. Still waiting the results of DAI reforms in DA4. Again these circles (this remark is not about mage circles just to be clear). But the gallows is a prison. I can't say, that walking in a prison is "walking freely"... I don't see any healthy in the Circles. And if you right about the blood magic – and of course you're right, many things possible, and it a big part of the reason, that most of my Circle mages studied blood magic, and also some of my Hawkes... yes, direct against the Templars, against the Circle. If the Circles weren't prison, and the Templars weren't enemies, they wouldn't that idiot to cut themselves, but at the moment... Cause and effect.
So: the Circle not a solution, it's rather a danger, especially in the light of the case of the Starkhaven mages, Connor, Amelia etc. I'm sure many mages want more power... especially one of them a shameless Circle apologetic – who can be the Divine with the support of the Chantry... and she didn't even used blood magic... probably... --- That's a stupid thing about Thrask, but he's still one of the best. Bad things always happen with the best ones, because of they have faith in people. But we saw as well, the others, who didn't trust anyone, weren't able to prevent the bad things, in fact: they caused that.
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Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 27, 2019 0:58:23 GMT
I didn't change what I said at all. Accusing the other of not listening to what you're saying is a common tactic when someone realizes that their arguments have no merit. "Oppression isn't a zero-sum game" refers to your argument that the mages just shouldn't object to anything at all because other people have it bad to. The problems faced by elves and peasants have no bearing on the problems facing the mages. Pointing to those problems is a classic "what about-ism" fallacy. Getting rid of the Templars needs to be the first step because the Templars themselves won't allow any change, even as they keep causing the problems they're supposed to prevent. That's why there was a war in the first place. Now who hasn't been listening to what others are saying? It's because I've studied history that I know that unilaterally declaring that a group of people should not actually be treated as people only ends in tragedy and abuse. It protects no one at all. Yes, you did. And pointing out that someone isn't listening to what you're saying also happens to be a common tactic when they clearly aren't listening to what you're saying. That isn't the argument I've been making, though. I've pointed out that this world is essentially made from shit and that the ethical standards you're trying to exact - thorough oversight with no significant abuse - isn't a realistic expectation no matter where in the setting you look, because none of the societies are anywhere near socially or technologically advanced enough to even conceive of it, let alone figure out how to make it happen. For the Circle of Magi to be an even near-perfectly safe and comfortable and free place for everyone would be a major anachronism, because that level of attention to other people's comfort and safety and freedom on general principle doesn't exist in the setting and won't realistically for a very, very long time. That isn't a "what about-ism" fallacy, it's you applying ethical expectations that are frankly idealistic even in modern times to medieval-ish societies that have been in constant crisis for quite a while, which is just weird. Getting rid of the Templars would need to be the last step because without them it'd be impossible to get the mages to go anywhere they don't feel like ever again. And when the world hasn't been under attack from mages and their disastrous experiments they've also reliably accepted the Chantry's authority over them. If a more efficient system was devised, tested, proved and accepted by the Chantry as the new status quo, the Templars would follow along. If you hadn't noticed, very few of them actually like abusing mages. And complaining that the Templars are somehow causing all the troubles they don't successfully prevent is a pretty shaky theory. You're looking at the dozens of mages who for whatever reason weren't incarcerated and ended up causing disaster, while ignoring the thousands who were and never troubled anyone, and the havoc they could all potentially have produced for the past thousand years of Thedas' history. Instead, the greatest disasters that haunt Thedas have all been the remnants of mage influence from before the Templars put them under the boot. The Blights, Corypheus and the Elvhen gods, all traced back to times when the mages supposedly ruled and policed themselves. And treating populations unilaterally this way or that hasn't protected anyone in history because in history people have more or less been the same, with no population being inherently more dangerous than any other even when it has been, or is, believed so. That isn't the case in Thedas as a matter of objective fact. There are, however, diseases that have mandated that people be isolated and forced to live in inhuman conditions for other people's safety. And which would absolutely have cost many more lives, and conceivably infected whole populations, if such measures hadn't been taken. Was that wrong too, to your mind? People should just die en masse rather than mistreat any group for any reason?
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 27, 2019 1:36:58 GMT
I didn't change what I said at all. Accusing the other of not listening to what you're saying is a common tactic when someone realizes that their arguments have no merit. "Oppression isn't a zero-sum game" refers to your argument that the mages just shouldn't object to anything at all because other people have it bad to. The problems faced by elves and peasants have no bearing on the problems facing the mages. Pointing to those problems is a classic "what about-ism" fallacy. Getting rid of the Templars needs to be the first step because the Templars themselves won't allow any change, even as they keep causing the problems they're supposed to prevent. That's why there was a war in the first place. Now who hasn't been listening to what others are saying? It's because I've studied history that I know that unilaterally declaring that a group of people should not actually be treated as people only ends in tragedy and abuse. It protects no one at all. Yes, you did. And pointing out that someone isn't listening to what you're saying also happens to be a common tactic when they clearly aren't listening to what you're saying. That isn't the argument I've been making, though. I've pointed out that this world is essentially made from shit and that the ethical standards you're trying to exact - thorough oversight with no significant abuse - isn't a realistic expectation no matter where in the setting you look, because none of the societies are anywhere near socially or technologically advanced enough to even conceive of it, let alone figure out how to make it happen. For the Circle of Magi to be an even near-perfectly safe and comfortable and free place for everyone would be a major anachronism, because that level of attention to other people's comfort and safety and freedom on general principle doesn't exist in the setting and won't realistically for a very, very long time. That isn't a "what about-ism" fallacy, it's you applying ethical expectations that are frankly idealistic even in modern times to medieval-ish societies that have been in constant crisis for quite a while, which is just weird. Getting rid of the Templars would need to be the last step because without them it'd be impossible to get the mages to go anywhere they don't feel like ever again. And when the world hasn't been under attack from mages and their disastrous experiments they've also reliably accepted the Chantry's authority over them. If a more efficient system was devised, tested, proved and accepted by the Chantry as the new status quo, the Templars would follow along. If you hadn't noticed, very few of them actually like abusing mages. And complaining that the Templars are somehow causing all the troubles they don't successfully prevent is a pretty shaky theory. You're looking at the dozens of mages who for whatever reason weren't incarcerated and ended up causing disaster, while ignoring the thousands who were and never troubled anyone, and the havoc they could all potentially have produced for the past thousand years of Thedas' history. Instead, the greatest disasters that haunt Thedas have all been the remnants of mage influence from before the Templars put them under the boot. The Blights, Corypheus and the Elvhen gods, all traced back to times when the mages supposedly ruled and policed themselves. And treating populations unilaterally this way or that hasn't protected anyone in history because in history people have more or less been the same, with no population being inherently more dangerous than any other even when it has been, or is, believed so. That isn't the case in Thedas as a matter of objective fact. There are, however, diseases that have mandated that people be isolated and forced to live in inhuman conditions for other people's safety. And which would absolutely have cost many more lives, and conceivably infected whole populations, if such measures hadn't been taken. Was that wrong too, to your mind? People should just die en masse rather than mistreat any group for any reason? And now you've resorted to trolling. Another refuge of someone who knows that they have no argument. You've repeatedly cited the situations of the elves and peasants as if that has anything to do with the wrongs committed against the mages. That is textbook "what about-ism". The cruelties committed against the elves and peasants does not mean that the cruelties committed against the mages are right. The Templars need to be removed first because they won't allow any changes. They rebelled when Justinia tried. The Templars who don't like abusing mages aren't in any position to change things. The system seems designed to prevent them from doing so, while giving power to the zealots like Meredith and Lambert. You are once again displaying the double-standard that lies at the root of the problem. When one or a few mages do something wrong, you describe it as people being under attack by mages, as if all mages are doing those things. Yet when the Templars do something wrong you never describe mages being under attack by all Templars, even though the Templars who don't like abusing mages are still following their orders to do so. And there's nothing shaky about saying that the Templars are causing the problems they're supposed to prevent. The game shows us plenty of examples, which I have cited. Treating people unilaterally as not being people has not protected anyone because that treatment in and of itself leads to abuse, which fuels resentment, which leads to conflict. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy no matter whom it is perpetrated against. It is simply not necessary to permanently isolate someone with an infectious disease in inhumane conditions. A person with ebola will still be allowed contact with their family even if it is managed in such a way that evidence shows that it will prevent further spread of the disease. Besides that the comparison simply doesn't work. Simple contact with a mage won't cause anyone to turn into an abomination. They cannot "infect" anyone else with their magic. Prohibitions against blood magic are more similar to prohibitions against owning biological weapons. And before you make the argument I know you will, blood magic is not easy to learn.
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 27, 2019 4:55:19 GMT
And now you've resorted to trolling. Another refuge of someone who knows that they have no argument. You've repeatedly cited the situations of the elves and peasants as if that has anything to do with the wrongs committed against the mages. That is textbook "what about-ism". The cruelties committed against the elves and peasants does not mean that the cruelties committed against the mages are right. The Templars need to be removed first because they won't allow any changes. They rebelled when Justinia tried. The Templars who don't like abusing mages aren't in any position to change things. The system seems designed to prevent them from doing so, while giving power to the zealots like Meredith and Lambert. You are once again displaying the double-standard that lies at the root of the problem. When one or a few mages do something wrong, you describe it as people being under attack by mages, as if all mages are doing those things. Yet when the Templars do something wrong you never describe mages being under attack by all Templars, even though the Templars who don't like abusing mages are still following their orders to do so. And there's nothing shaky about saying that the Templars are causing the problems they're supposed to prevent. The game shows us plenty of examples, which I have cited. Treating people unilaterally as not being people has not protected anyone because that treatment in and of itself leads to abuse, which fuels resentment, which leads to conflict. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy no matter whom it is perpetrated against. It is simply not necessary to permanently isolate someone with an infectious disease in inhumane conditions. A person with ebola will still be allowed contact with their family even if it is managed in such a way that evidence shows that it will prevent further spread of the disease. Besides that the comparison simply doesn't work. Simple contact with a mage won't cause anyone to turn into an abomination. They cannot "infect" anyone else with their magic. Prohibitions against blood magic are more similar to prohibitions against owning biological weapons. And before you make the argument I know you will, blood magic is not easy to learn. As is arbitrarily accusing people of trolling, funnily enough. I'm curious, was it the emoticon? Are emoticons really trolling now? And here I thought they were there to make dour-sounding posts about video game lore seem more lively. Shows what I know. For what it's worth, I haven't tried to troll you. It truly seems like you're just being too stubborn to give a damn about what I'm actually saying. The situations of elves and peasants are relevant to what the mages can realistically expect because in a world where everybody is treated like crap it's insane to demand that the general population be able to make enormous leaps of ethical reasoning in order to give particular groups rights that you and I would consider adequate. That's not how anything works, least of all collective moral sensibility. I'm not pointing at the elves and saying "they're suffering so why would you deserve better?", I'm pointing at everyone else in the setting suffering and asking why you'd ever expect them to place mages' comforts so far above their own. They have no reason to believe that anyone has unimpeachable rights that should be accommodated no matter what. Most would laugh in your face if you tried to explain the concept to them. The theory is definitely shaky if there'd be a kilometers-long list of similar disasters that the Templars have successfully prevented versus the merely meters-long list of ones they "caused" by people being too stupid and selfish to get with their program. And none of the disasters they "caused" in that sense have so far threatened the world. Your argument about the double-standard doesn't hold water either. When talking about mages being in the process of destroying the world or at least wrecking entire townships, those mages are destroying the world or at least wrecking townships. Templars' potential crimes by comparison are limited to handfuls of individuals at their very worst. There's a huge difference in magnitude between what a Templar going rogue and a mage going rogue represents, so obviously the risk of those two are treated with different levels of severity. Sounds more and more like you're just abjectly refusing to recognize that difference. I entirely agree with mistreating people on principle being a recipe for disaster no matter what. The problem crops up if the people being mistreated would hypothetically cause much greater harm if they weren't than the conflict caused indirectly by their mistreatment could possibly be, as is the case with mages. It's not necessary for us to permanently isolate people with infectious disease in inhumane conditions, you mean. We have an abundance of resources, highly refined and incredibly efficient infrastructures and advanced technology, and a relatively thorough understanding of exactly what we're dealing with when it comes to disease. We didn't have any of those things in the 13th century, when the Black Death took out swaths of Europe's population, or in the 18th when smallpox decimated the Native Americans, or even during any of the cholera pandemics in the 19th. And the inhumane isolation of people saved plenty of lives then even though others suffered that much more for the remainder of theirs. And while physically touching a mage might not cause you harm, standing anywhere near one certainly can. Connor "infected" everyone at Castle Redcliffe pretty efficiently if I remember, and anyone in the region who couldn't be said to be "infected" were either fighting for their lives or already dead. To say nothing of the Blight, the Tears in the Veil or the Blighted Lyrium, all created by magic. So the analogy of people unwillingly carrying a malign influence that can unpredictably spread outwards in chaotic and merciless ways is definitely consistent. And I call BS. Jowan of all people learned blood magic through self-study, as does both Hawke and Merril, and the Warden PC learns the trick over the course of a single magical ritual. Not to mention almost every apostate character of note, and plenty of circle-trained mages with unethical tendencies. I'll grant that no, it probably isn't easy to learn, but it's pretty obvious that anyone who really wants to can.
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Post by Sonya on Dec 27, 2019 7:57:20 GMT
But the gallows is a prison. I can't say, that walking in a prison is "walking freely"... you are right in part. walking in prison is not free if allowered at all (depends on the prison). But it it a matter of prisons, irrelevant to this discussion. and of course you're right no, I may be wrong. Depends on the situation. In this one I am right as BM doesn't come out of thin air. Meredith was right at least in one thing saying that to Orsino before the fight with the Harvester. Try to pay attention to the contex, not the name "Meredith", or even others wouldn't be able to stop you. it is a solution, but needs reforms, as well as the Chantry (this "thing" needs lots of reforms), templars, the systeme in the whole. Society needs new brainwashing as well. I wrote it many times, but seems you are immune to anything at all as soon as you see the word "circle". That's a stupid thing about Thrask, but he's still one of the best. Bad things always happen with the best ones, because of they have faith in people. I did not say Thrask was a bad templar, I liked his idea as he tried at least to make things better (like some other templars). But still he ended up to be a moron (I explain already why). Bad things always happen with the best ones, because of they have faith in people. But we saw as well, the others, who didn't trust anyone, weren't able to prevent the bad things, in fact: they caused that. Maybe one day future generations will use it as an epigraph at schools and universities writing about burnt houses by accident by mages and raped women and children by templar-thugs. Always nice exchanging civilized opinions with you, Catilina.
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Post by Sonya on Dec 27, 2019 8:00:13 GMT
Technical question: if the sibling dies in the Deep Roads and Hawke doesn't romance anyone, who gets kidnapped? oh, one of the bugs. TBH I was tired of that nonsense (kipnapping GWs?! Templars or Mages?! That's just stupide). Anyway ended up installing a fix mod for that. But the question has already been answered.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 27, 2019 8:07:51 GMT
And now you've resorted to trolling. Another refuge of someone who knows that they have no argument. You've repeatedly cited the situations of the elves and peasants as if that has anything to do with the wrongs committed against the mages. That is textbook "what about-ism". The cruelties committed against the elves and peasants does not mean that the cruelties committed against the mages are right. The Templars need to be removed first because they won't allow any changes. They rebelled when Justinia tried. The Templars who don't like abusing mages aren't in any position to change things. The system seems designed to prevent them from doing so, while giving power to the zealots like Meredith and Lambert. You are once again displaying the double-standard that lies at the root of the problem. When one or a few mages do something wrong, you describe it as people being under attack by mages, as if all mages are doing those things. Yet when the Templars do something wrong you never describe mages being under attack by all Templars, even though the Templars who don't like abusing mages are still following their orders to do so. And there's nothing shaky about saying that the Templars are causing the problems they're supposed to prevent. The game shows us plenty of examples, which I have cited. Treating people unilaterally as not being people has not protected anyone because that treatment in and of itself leads to abuse, which fuels resentment, which leads to conflict. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy no matter whom it is perpetrated against. It is simply not necessary to permanently isolate someone with an infectious disease in inhumane conditions. A person with ebola will still be allowed contact with their family even if it is managed in such a way that evidence shows that it will prevent further spread of the disease. Besides that the comparison simply doesn't work. Simple contact with a mage won't cause anyone to turn into an abomination. They cannot "infect" anyone else with their magic. Prohibitions against blood magic are more similar to prohibitions against owning biological weapons. And before you make the argument I know you will, blood magic is not easy to learn. As is arbitrarily accusing people of trolling, funnily enough. I'm curious, was it the emoticon? Are emoticons really trolling now? And here I thought they were there to make dour-sounding posts about video game lore seem more lively. Shows what I know. For what it's worth, I haven't tried to troll you. It truly seems like you're just being too stubborn to give a damn about what I'm actually saying. The situations of elves and peasants are relevant to what the mages can realistically expect because in a world where everybody is treated like crap it's insane to demand that the general population be able to make enormous leaps of ethical reasoning in order to give particular groups rights that you and I would consider adequate. That's not how anything works, least of all collective moral sensibility. I'm not pointing at the elves and saying "they're suffering so why would you deserve better?", I'm pointing at everyone else in the setting suffering and asking why you'd ever expect them to place mages' comforts so far above their own. They have no reason to believe that anyone has unimpeachable rights that should be accommodated no matter what. Most would laugh in your face if you tried to explain the concept to them. The theory is definitely shaky if there'd be a kilometers-long list of similar disasters that the Templars have successfully prevented versus the merely meters-long list of ones they "caused" by people being too stupid and selfish to get with their program. And none of the disasters they "caused" in that sense have so far threatened the world. Your argument about the double-standard doesn't hold water either. When talking about mages being in the process of destroying the world or at least wrecking entire townships, those mages are destroying the world or at least wrecking townships. Templars' potential crimes by comparison are limited to handfuls of individuals at their very worst. There's a huge difference in magnitude between what a Templar going rogue and a mage going rogue represents, so obviously the risk of those two are treated with different levels of severity. Sounds more and more like you're just abjectly refusing to recognize that difference. I entirely agree with mistreating people on principle being a recipe for disaster no matter what. The problem crops up if the people being mistreated would hypothetically cause much greater harm if they weren't than the conflict caused indirectly by their mistreatment could possibly be, as is the case with mages. It's not necessary for us to permanently isolate people with infectious disease in inhumane conditions, you mean. We have an abundance of resources, highly refined and incredibly efficient infrastructures and advanced technology, and a relatively thorough understanding of exactly what we're dealing with when it comes to disease. We didn't have any of those things in the 13th century, when the Black Death took out swaths of Europe's population, or in the 18th when smallpox decimated the Native Americans, or even during any of the cholera pandemics in the 19th. And the inhumane isolation of people saved plenty of lives then even though others suffered that much more for the remainder of theirs. And while physically touching a mage might not cause you harm, standing anywhere near one certainly can. Connor "infected" everyone at Castle Redcliffe pretty efficiently if I remember, and anyone in the region who couldn't be said to be "infected" were either fighting for their lives or already dead. To say nothing of the Blight, the Tears in the Veil or the Blighted Lyrium, all created by magic. So the analogy of people unwillingly carrying a malign influence that can unpredictably spread outwards in chaotic and merciless ways is definitely consistent. And I call BS. Jowan of all people learned blood magic through self-study, as does both Hawke and Merril, and the Warden PC learns the trick over the course of a single magical ritual. Not to mention almost every apostate character of note, and plenty of circle-trained mages with unethical tendencies. I'll grant that no, it probably isn't easy to learn, but it's pretty obvious that anyone who really wants to can. I've already warned you before that emojis make it look like you're trolling. And once again, accusing people of not listening to what you're saying is a common tactic when someone has realized that their argument is failing. The conditions of the elves and peasants is pure "what about-ism" fallacy. The wrongs committed against one group do not make it okay to wrong a second group. What disasters have the Templars prevented? Since those alleged disasters didn't happen in the first place, we can't actually say whether they truly would have happened if the Templars had not been there. It's not possible to prove a negative. But other mages are not in the process of destroying the world or at least a township, so you are pointing at the actions of a few and saying that they all need to be punished for that, even though the vast majority have committed no crimes at all. When Meredith went rogue, hundreds of mages died. Even more mages died when the Knight-Captain of the Antiva City Circle went rogue. More still died when Lambert went rogue. Note that in all three cases, the vast majority of the supposed good Templars followed their orders and slaughtered mages who had committed no crime. Yet you are claiming that not all Templars should be judged by those examples. This double standard is the central reason why the Circle ultimately can't work by design. And when that treatment causes the problems it claims to prevent, as has been demonstrated multiple times in this case, then it comes off as simply an ex post facto justification for sadism. I believe you were the one who earlier used the comparison of someone coming down with ebola, even though the situations are in no way the same. Now you're moving the goalposts. And besides, isolating the sick to prevent further infection does not require inhumane treatment. It worries me that you think it does. Once again, Connor didn't get the training he needed because his mother didn't want to lose him forever. That lies squarely at the feet of a Circle system that permanently separates children from their parents. If Isolde didn't have to worry about losing all contact with her son, Connor would have gotten the training he needed, and the Redcliff disaster never would have happened. So once again, your dehumanizing "infection" analogy fails. Jowan learned Blood Magic from books that were available in the Circle, while Merril and Amell/Surana both learned it directly from a demon. Hawke is pure gameplay/story segregation. What happened with Merril and Amell/Surana is not something the average mage can be expected to encounter.
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 27, 2019 9:25:55 GMT
I've already warned you before that emojis make it look like you're trolling. What disasters have the Templars prevented? Since those alleged disasters didn't happen in the first place, we can't actually say whether they truly would have happened if the Templars had not been there. It's not possible to prove a negative. But other mages are not in the process of destroying the world or at least a township, so you are pointing at the actions of a few and saying that they all need to be punished for that, even though the vast majority have committed no crimes at all. When Meredith went rogue, hundreds of mages died. Even more mages died when the Knight-Captain of the Antiva City Circle went rogue. More still died when Lambert went rogue. Note that in all three cases, the vast majority of the supposed good Templars followed their orders and slaughtered mages who had committed no crime. Yet you are claiming that not all Templars should be judged by those examples. This double standard is the central reason why the Circle ultimately can't work by design. And when that treatment causes the problems it claims to prevent, as has been demonstrated multiple times in this case, then it comes off as simply an ex post facto justification for sadism. I believe you were the one who earlier used the comparison of someone coming down with ebola, even though the situations are in no way the same. Now you're moving the goalposts. And besides, isolating the sick to prevent further infection does not require inhumane treatment. It worries me that you think it does. Once again, Connor didn't get the training he needed because his mother didn't want to lose him forever. That lies squarely at the feet of a Circle system that permanently separates children from their parents. If Isolde didn't have to worry about losing all contact with her son, Connor would have gotten the training he needed, and the Redcliff disaster never would have happened. So once again, your dehumanizing "infection" analogy fails. Jowan learned Blood Magic from books that were available in the Circle, while Merril and Amell/Surana both learned it directly from a demon. Hawke is pure gameplay/story segregation. What happened with Merril and Amell/Surana is not something the average mage can be expected to encounter. Mhm. To you, for reasons you didn't explain, yes, and I thought it was stupid and ridiculous but decided to be polite and take it at face value. But you don't get to actually dictate when people on these forums use emoticons, and you clearly don't have a sense for when someone is or isn't trolling, so... I'm going to stop a few lines of the conversation because you obviously aren't interested in actually discussing them. We're just going in circles. Obviously we don't know exactly how many or what level of disasters have been averted by mages being locked up, but just because we don't have those numbers doesn't mean they aren't a relevant factor in your judgement of Templars as an order allegedly designed to fail. Going by Connor's example alone, mages are prone enough to catastrophe just from the ordinary ills of life - a dying parent - that gathering them up as quickly as possible alone must realistically have saved countless lives. You're tallying the Templars' failures, but have no idea how many successes may or may not outweigh them. We know enough about mages' statistical tendencies to cause trouble to say that they're at least significant. Sure, a few hundred mages have died to rogue Templars working together. Compare that to the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, that have died at the hands of singular rogue mages. Keeping mages from crossing that line is clearly much more important than doing the same for Templars. Setting up false equivalencies and trying to take things out of perspective doesn't change that. And I maintain that holding the mages collectively on a shorter leash in times of upheaval is a cautionary measure, misguided or not, and not a punishment for individual mages' actions. And you believe wrong, then. So far as I know you're the one who brought ebola into the conversation, I haven't touched on it until now. No idea what you mean about moving goalposts, I've only used disease as an analogy in the sense of an uncontrollable danger to massive amounts of people attached to a person that justifies keeping them isolated and under supervision by any means necessary, or at least as far away from the general population as humanly possible. If pressed I could easily apply it in all sorts of other ways, but... why? And again, isolating the sick doesn't require inhumane treatment for us now, but that hasn't always been the case. That you'd rather moralize at me than recognize that fact just makes me tired. Another way to look at the Redcliffe mess is to say that Isolde kept Connor even though she knew perfectly well that it endangered not just the castle but the entire region, because she thought her feelings for her son were more important than the lives of literally everyone else and because she thought she was smarter than the people whose jobs are to prevent mages from hurting people. From that point of view, the blame lies squarely on her shoulders for being insanely selfish, reckless, stupid and irresponsible, and no system in the world can predict and compensate for that, modern or medieval-ish. If the Chantry's edicts had been followed then there wouldn't have been the slightest problem. And it's been well-established that mages have opportunities to leave the towers provided they earn the administration's trust, especially nobility. And Hawke uses blood magic in the game's cinematic trailer. In my mind, a blood mage Hawke is a blood mage, that game has enough "gameplay and story segregation" that everybody knows you're supposed to headcanon it in if something is missing. And I really don't care which of the multitude of ways to learn about blood magic the average mage is likely to take. If they want to learn it then they clearly can, just going by how many blood mages each game features.
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sageoflife
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 27, 2019 10:22:30 GMT
I've already warned you before that emojis make it look like you're trolling. What disasters have the Templars prevented? Since those alleged disasters didn't happen in the first place, we can't actually say whether they truly would have happened if the Templars had not been there. It's not possible to prove a negative. But other mages are not in the process of destroying the world or at least a township, so you are pointing at the actions of a few and saying that they all need to be punished for that, even though the vast majority have committed no crimes at all. When Meredith went rogue, hundreds of mages died. Even more mages died when the Knight-Captain of the Antiva City Circle went rogue. More still died when Lambert went rogue. Note that in all three cases, the vast majority of the supposed good Templars followed their orders and slaughtered mages who had committed no crime. Yet you are claiming that not all Templars should be judged by those examples. This double standard is the central reason why the Circle ultimately can't work by design. And when that treatment causes the problems it claims to prevent, as has been demonstrated multiple times in this case, then it comes off as simply an ex post facto justification for sadism. I believe you were the one who earlier used the comparison of someone coming down with ebola, even though the situations are in no way the same. Now you're moving the goalposts. And besides, isolating the sick to prevent further infection does not require inhumane treatment. It worries me that you think it does. Once again, Connor didn't get the training he needed because his mother didn't want to lose him forever. That lies squarely at the feet of a Circle system that permanently separates children from their parents. If Isolde didn't have to worry about losing all contact with her son, Connor would have gotten the training he needed, and the Redcliff disaster never would have happened. So once again, your dehumanizing "infection" analogy fails. Jowan learned Blood Magic from books that were available in the Circle, while Merril and Amell/Surana both learned it directly from a demon. Hawke is pure gameplay/story segregation. What happened with Merril and Amell/Surana is not something the average mage can be expected to encounter. Mhm. To you, for reasons you didn't explain, yes, and I thought it was stupid and ridiculous but decided to be polite and take it at face value. But you don't get to actually dictate when people on these forums use emoticons, and you clearly don't have a sense for when someone is or isn't trolling, so... I'm going to stop a few lines of the conversation because you obviously aren't interested in actually discussing them. We're just going in circles. Obviously we don't know exactly how many or what level of disasters have been averted by mages being locked up, but just because we don't have those numbers doesn't mean they aren't a relevant factor in your judgement of Templars as an order allegedly designed to fail. Going by Connor's example alone, mages are prone enough to catastrophe just from the ordinary ills of life - a dying parent - that gathering them up as quickly as possible alone must realistically have saved countless lives. You're tallying the Templars' failures, but have no idea how many successes may or may not outweigh them. We know enough about mages' statistical tendencies to cause trouble to say that they're at least significant. Sure, a few hundred mages have died to rogue Templars working together. Compare that to the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, that have died at the hands of singular rogue mages. Keeping mages from crossing that line is clearly much more important than doing the same for Templars. Setting up false equivalencies and trying to take things out of perspective doesn't change that. And I maintain that holding the mages collectively on a shorter leash in times of upheaval is a cautionary measure, misguided or not, and not a punishment for individual mages' actions. And you believe wrong, then. So far as I know you're the one who brought ebola into the conversation, I haven't touched on it until now. No idea what you mean about moving goalposts, I've only used disease as an analogy in the sense of an uncontrollable danger to massive amounts of people attached to a person that justifies keeping them isolated and under supervision by any means necessary, or at least as far away from the general population as humanly possible. If pressed I could easily apply it in all sorts of other ways, but... why? And again, isolating the sick doesn't require inhumane treatment for us now, but that hasn't always been the case. That you'd rather moralize at me than recognize that fact just makes me tired. Another way to look at the Redcliffe mess is to say that Isolde kept Connor even though she knew perfectly well that it endangered not just the castle but the entire region, because she thought her feelings for her son were more important than the lives of literally everyone else and because she thought she was smarter than the people whose jobs are to prevent mages from hurting people. From that point of view, the blame lies squarely on her shoulders for being insanely selfish, reckless, stupid and irresponsible, and no system in the world can predict and compensate for that, modern or medieval-ish. If the Chantry's edicts had been followed then there wouldn't have been the slightest problem. And it's been well-established that mages have opportunities to leave the towers provided they earn the administration's trust, especially nobility. And Hawke uses blood magic in the game's cinematic trailer. In my mind, a blood mage Hawke is a blood mage, that game has enough "gameplay and story segregation" that everybody knows you're supposed to headcanon it in if something is missing. And I really don't care which of the multitude of ways to learn about blood magic the average mage is likely to take. If they want to learn it then they clearly can, just going by how many blood mages each game features. I was only informing you of how your actions come across and how they weaken your position. If you want to demonstrate that you have no argument by trolling just because things aren't going your way, that's your prerogative. I've been discussing them this entire time. You're just claiming otherwise because you aren't getting your way, which is an extremely common tactic when someone has realized that their argument has failed. By the way, you are not one to talk about false equivalencies with your repeated harping on the "infection" analogy that's already been refuted. Once again, if the Chantry can arbitrarily adjust the length of the mages' leash, then they are literally slaves. And as we saw, punishing all mages for the actions of one apostate only expedited the rebellion. If Connor had gotten the training he needed then the undead situation never would have happened. Why didn't he get that training? Because Isolde didn't want to be permanently separated from her child. The root cause of that disaster was the way the Circle is structured, which provides parents with incentive to prevent their children from receiving the necessary training. The exact same problem showed itself with Amelia Stannard, who by all accounts was managing fine until the Templars were literally on her doorstep. You are literally saying that it's fine to slaughter hundreds of people based on something that might happen. Even when that slaughter is blatantly illegal. I want you to think about that. Either you or one of your allies brought ebola into the conversation. Isolation may be necessary to prevent additional infections, but quarantine does not need to be inhumane. It never did. A mage's ability to leave the tower is at the discretion of the Knight-Commander, the majority of whom are more like Meredith than Greagoir, as explicitly stated in-game. Besides, one of the most vocal Loyalists only got out from under the Templars' thumb by whoring herself out to a particularly powerful noble. That's hardly a typical situation. And if people want to get ahold of biological weapons, they're going to find a way to. Pre-emptive punishments won't fix that.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Dec 27, 2019 10:51:34 GMT
The exact same problem showed itself with Amelia Stannard, who by all accounts was managing fine until the Templars were literally on her doorstep. How many accounts of Amelia Stannard's life do we have? And how much detail do they go into?
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 27, 2019 11:08:30 GMT
The exact same problem showed itself with Amelia Stannard, who by all accounts was managing fine until the Templars were literally on her doorstep. How many accounts of Amelia Stannard's life do we have? And how much detail do they go into? Mainly just the World of Thedas, which clarifies things that Meredith conveniently left out when she used her sister's example to justify her own behavior.
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Post by Iddy on Dec 27, 2019 11:30:22 GMT
You assume Templars are the best defense against Abominations; best equipped and best trained. That is demonstrably false. Templars are trained and conditioned to control and kill non-hostile mages on behalf of the Andrastian power structure. Their zealotry and obedience are prioritised by their recruiters over a strong moral code. They are a political paramilitary hammer. Stop trying to pretend otherwise. We cannot legally or ethically force parents to vaccinate their children, who have the potential to cause pandemics. There's your real world comparison. Anyone with the ability to communicate is possibly dangerous. Should we lock EVERYONE up? Moral arguments don't deny the fact that they technically have the most suitable abilities for the task.
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