Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Mithras on Dec 27, 2019 17:18:26 GMT
"Oppression isn't a zero-sum game" refers to your argument that the mages just shouldn't object to anything at all because other people have it bad to. The problems faced by elves and peasants have no bearing on the problems facing the mages. Pointing to those problems is a classic "what about-ism" fallacy. It's not "what about-ism" because what mages want will meaningfully and negatively impact the lives of the peasantry. Just to achieve the the freedom that they desire requires a war that would turn portions of Thedas into hellholes (Hinterlands)
And then, if they do win, the peasants suddenly have to deal with a class of super powered beings competing for resources and prestigious places in society. The mages who can't control themselves will abuse their powers and/or become Abominations. Those who can control themselves will leverage their abilities into competing with the nobility for the right to rule over the peasants.
So, from my point of view, the "great mage rebellion" is a group of people with super powers who live in palaces, the most extenuating physical work they ever did was waving their fingers, who have access to free education, food, clothing, who will never be attacked by bandits or Darkspawn, who are part of an wealthy institution and yet they are STILL not happy with all of this and want yet more at the expense of everyone else in the world despite the fact that their super powers have brought the world to the edge of doom multiple times.
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Post by Iddy on Dec 27, 2019 18:19:28 GMT
"Oppression isn't a zero-sum game" refers to your argument that the mages just shouldn't object to anything at all because other people have it bad to. The problems faced by elves and peasants have no bearing on the problems facing the mages. Pointing to those problems is a classic "what about-ism" fallacy. It's not "what about-ism" because what mages want will meaningfully and negatively impact the lives of the peasantry. Just to achieve the the freedom that they desire requires a war that would turn portions of Thedas into hellholes (Hinterlands)
And then, if they do win, the peasants suddenly have to deal with a class of super powered beings competing for resources and prestigious places in society. The mages who can't control themselves will abuse their powers and/or become Abominations. Those who can control themselves will leverage their abilities into competing with the nobility for the right to rule over the peasants.
So, from my point of view, the "great mage rebellion" is a group of people with super powers who live in palaces, the most extenuating physical work they ever did was waving their fingers, who have access to free education, food, clothing, who will never be attacked by bandits or Darkspawn, who are part of an wealthy institution and yet they are STILL not happy with all of this and want yet more at the expense of everyone else in the world despite the fact that their super powers have brought the world to the edge of doom multiple times.
Maybe the games fail to reproduce the lore, but mages in this franchise don't seem particularly powerful to me. They can... what, throw a fireball and raise a wall of ice? Anyway, I suppose the issue you're describing would be solved by dealing with the mage prejudice before actually releasing mages into the open world.
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 27, 2019 18:56:53 GMT
I was only informing you of how your actions come across and how they weaken your position. If you want to demonstrate that you have no argument by trolling just because things aren't going your way, that's your prerogative. I've been discussing them this entire time. You're just claiming otherwise because you aren't getting your way, which is an extremely common tactic when someone has realized that their argument has failed. By the way, you are not one to talk about false equivalencies with your repeated harping on the "infection" analogy that's already been refuted. Once again, if the Chantry can arbitrarily adjust the length of the mages' leash, then they are literally slaves. And as we saw, punishing all mages for the actions of one apostate only expedited the rebellion. If Connor had gotten the training he needed then the undead situation never would have happened. Why didn't he get that training? Because Isolde didn't want to be permanently separated from her child. The root cause of that disaster was the way the Circle is structured, which provides parents with incentive to prevent their children from receiving the necessary training. The exact same problem showed itself with Amelia Stannard, who by all accounts was managing fine until the Templars were literally on her doorstep. You are literally saying that it's fine to slaughter hundreds of people based on something that might happen. Even when that slaughter is blatantly illegal. I want you to think about that. Either you or one of your allies brought ebola into the conversation. Isolation may be necessary to prevent additional infections, but quarantine does not need to be inhumane. It never did. A mage's ability to leave the tower is at the discretion of the Knight-Commander, the majority of whom are more like Meredith than Greagoir, as explicitly stated in-game. Besides, one of the most vocal Loyalists only got out from under the Templars' thumb by whoring herself out to a particularly powerful noble. That's hardly a typical situation. And if people want to get ahold of biological weapons, they're going to find a way to. Pre-emptive punishments won't fix that. Dude. I really couldn't care less about how you think my posts do or do not reflect on me. And your intuition has proven so off that it wouldn't be worth taking seriously even if I did. Please stop trying to passive-aggressively guilt-trip me out of arguing. It's stupid and boring and completely missing the point. Also a tactic that indicates that you know you have no case. Which is a ball we can obviously throw back and forth forever if you feel like it. And nope. While I've at least been trying to vary my arguments to keep things interesting, you've stooped to simply repeating yours and refusing to address mine. That's just a waste of time and writing space to continue. As already pointed out, Isolde wouldn't necessarily have been permanently separated from her child. And she made the decision knowing the dangers it presented for everyone else, because she'd been told all her life. That makes the consequences of her actions her responsibility, because that's funnily enough how responsibility works. No half-decent mother in the world would ever want to be separated from her young child, regardless of the degree of separation, but mothers have for the past thousand years because it was necessary to keep people safe. And she just thought her own maternal feelings trumped that. And nope again, I'm saying that the slaughter of hundreds of people might be necessary to prevent something much worse that's almost certain to happen. I didn't say it was fine, individual Templars should still be punished for their transgressions, but it doesn't change the fact that they're holding back the apocalypse. Which is objectively worse than a few hundred deaths. And again, using disease is an analogy to demonstrate the circumstantial necessity of less-than-perfectly-humane treatment of people for the greater good. You haven't refuted that, you've just pointed out that magic doesn't physically work exactly like most diseases, which was never the point. "Allies" Somebody really is taking this a mite too seriously, "It never was", huh? That's an interesting take. I'm sure it'd bring lots of comfort to all the people who died miserably lying in crowded stables on disgusting straw full of of piss and vomit surrounded by other infected none of whom would ever be allowed to see their families again because there was literally nowhere better to put them and nobody could get close without risking the infection themselves, being treated by people who had no idea what they were doing. Guess people should just have kept them at home and died in droves instead. Would've been more humane. I'd really like to hear that quote you're referring to about more Knight-Commanders being like Meredith than Greagoir. I don't remember anything of the sort. And mages don't exactly need blood magic to be horrifically dangerous. I'm curious what your point is. That blood magic usually - but clearly not always - requires effort to be able to engage in isn't a revelation.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 27, 2019 21:53:14 GMT
"Oppression isn't a zero-sum game" refers to your argument that the mages just shouldn't object to anything at all because other people have it bad to. The problems faced by elves and peasants have no bearing on the problems facing the mages. Pointing to those problems is a classic "what about-ism" fallacy. It's not "what about-ism" because what mages want will meaningfully and negatively impact the lives of the peasantry. Just to achieve the the freedom that they desire requires a war that would turn portions of Thedas into hellholes (Hinterlands) And then, if they do win, the peasants suddenly have to deal with a class of super powered beings competing for resources and prestigious places in society. The mages who can't control themselves will abuse their powers and/or become Abominations. Those who can control themselves will leverage their abilities into competing with the nobility for the right to rule over the peasants. So, from my point of view, the "great mage rebellion" is a group of people with super powers who live in palaces, the most extenuating physical work they ever did was waving their fingers, who have access to free education, food, clothing, who will never be attacked by bandits or Darkspawn, who are part of an wealthy institution and yet they are STILL not happy with all of this and want yet more at the expense of everyone else in the world despite the fact that their super powers have brought the world to the edge of doom multiple times.
The mages wanted to change things peacefully. The Templars forced the war with their refusal to allow any form of peaceful change, instead ramping up their abuse of power. The conditions of the peasants and the elves has no bearing on this. I was only informing you of how your actions come across and how they weaken your position. If you want to demonstrate that you have no argument by trolling just because things aren't going your way, that's your prerogative. I've been discussing them this entire time. You're just claiming otherwise because you aren't getting your way, which is an extremely common tactic when someone has realized that their argument has failed. By the way, you are not one to talk about false equivalencies with your repeated harping on the "infection" analogy that's already been refuted. Once again, if the Chantry can arbitrarily adjust the length of the mages' leash, then they are literally slaves. And as we saw, punishing all mages for the actions of one apostate only expedited the rebellion. If Connor had gotten the training he needed then the undead situation never would have happened. Why didn't he get that training? Because Isolde didn't want to be permanently separated from her child. The root cause of that disaster was the way the Circle is structured, which provides parents with incentive to prevent their children from receiving the necessary training. The exact same problem showed itself with Amelia Stannard, who by all accounts was managing fine until the Templars were literally on her doorstep. You are literally saying that it's fine to slaughter hundreds of people based on something that might happen. Even when that slaughter is blatantly illegal. I want you to think about that. Either you or one of your allies brought ebola into the conversation. Isolation may be necessary to prevent additional infections, but quarantine does not need to be inhumane. It never did. A mage's ability to leave the tower is at the discretion of the Knight-Commander, the majority of whom are more like Meredith than Greagoir, as explicitly stated in-game. Besides, one of the most vocal Loyalists only got out from under the Templars' thumb by whoring herself out to a particularly powerful noble. That's hardly a typical situation. And if people want to get ahold of biological weapons, they're going to find a way to. Pre-emptive punishments won't fix that. Dude. I really couldn't care less about how you think my posts do or do not reflect on me. And your intuition has proven so off that it wouldn't be worth taking seriously even if I did. Please stop trying to passive-aggressively guilt-trip me out of arguing. It's stupid and boring and completely missing the point. Also a tactic that indicates that you know you have no case. Which is a ball we can obviously throw back and forth forever if you feel like it. And nope. While I've at least been trying to vary my arguments to keep things interesting, you've stooped to simply repeating yours and refusing to address mine. That's just a waste of time and writing space to continue. As already pointed out, Isolde wouldn't necessarily have been permanently separated from her child. And she made the decision knowing the dangers it presented for everyone else, because she'd been told all her life. That makes the consequences of her actions her responsibility, because that's funnily enough how responsibility works. No half-decent mother in the world would ever want to be separated from her young child, regardless of the degree of separation, but mothers have for the past thousand years because it was necessary to keep people safe. And she just thought her own maternal feelings trumped that. And nope again, I'm saying that the slaughter of hundreds of people might be necessary to prevent something much worse that's almost certain to happen. I didn't say it was fine, individual Templars should still be punished for their transgressions, but it doesn't change the fact that they're holding back the apocalypse. Which is objectively worse than a few hundred deaths. And again, using disease is an analogy to demonstrate the circumstantial necessity of less-than-perfectly-humane treatment of people for the greater good. You haven't refuted that, you've just pointed out that magic doesn't physically work exactly like most diseases, which was never the point. "Allies" Somebody really is taking this a mite too seriously, "It never was", huh? That's an interesting take. I'm sure it'd bring lots of comfort to all the people who died miserably lying in crowded stables on disgusting straw full of of piss and vomit surrounded by other infected none of whom would ever be allowed to see their families again because there was literally nowhere better to put them and nobody could get close without risking the infection themselves, being treated by people who had no idea what they were doing. Guess people should just have kept them at home and died in droves instead. Would've been more humane. I'd really like to hear that quote you're referring to about more Knight-Commanders being like Meredith than Greagoir. I don't remember anything of the sort. And mages don't exactly need blood magic to be horrifically dangerous. I'm curious what your point is. That blood magic usually - but clearly not always - requires effort to be able to engage in isn't a revelation. If you don't care that your own behavior is weakening your argument, that's your problem. The fact that you have resorted to trolling shows nothing except that you are aware that your argument has failed. I've been discussing your words this entire time. You're just claiming otherwise because you discovered that your argument isn't nearly as strong as you thought, so now you're trying to save face by accusing me of not listening. Isolde was a noble. She would have known whether she would have been able to leverage that to maintain contact, and she clearly thought that she wouldn't. Ten years later, Connor says nothing to indicate that he has been able to maintain ties with his family. He would have gotten the training he needed if the Circle was structured differently. The illegal slaughter of hundreds of mages is what led them to finally get fed up and rebel. That's not holding back the apocalypse by any metric. Gervosio wasn't "holding back the apocalypse" when he Annuled a Circle to hide the fact that his Knight-Captain was a serial killer. Meredith wasn't "holding back the apocalypse" when she Annuled a Circle for a crime committed by an apostate who was standing right there waiting for her to execute him for what he did. And you are once again displaying the double-standard that makes it impossible for the Circle to work. If one side is only going to be punished as individuals instead of as a collective, than both sides should be. And yes, I have refuted your "infection" analogy that leads to the dehumanization that caused the system to fall. You just don't like it. And you have once again resorted to trolling. Every time you do so you are admitting that your argument has failed. Just because people were treated inhumanely, doesn't mean that they should have been, or that it was right to do so. There were alternatives that wouldn't have resulted in further infection. It is explicitly stated in the codex that Graegoir is considered overly permissive for a Knight-Commander. This is the same Graegoir that engages in forms of torture like holding someone in solitary confinement for a year. You were the one who brought up blood magic as a reason to lock all mages up. Now you're moving the goalposts because I pointed out that learning blood magic is more difficult than you made it sound.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 27, 2019 22:08:54 GMT
It's not "what about-ism" because what mages want will meaningfully and negatively impact the lives of the peasantry. Just to achieve the the freedom that they desire requires a war that would turn portions of Thedas into hellholes (Hinterlands)
And then, if they do win, the peasants suddenly have to deal with a class of super powered beings competing for resources and prestigious places in society. The mages who can't control themselves will abuse their powers and/or become Abominations. Those who can control themselves will leverage their abilities into competing with the nobility for the right to rule over the peasants.
So, from my point of view, the "great mage rebellion" is a group of people with super powers who live in palaces, the most extenuating physical work they ever did was waving their fingers, who have access to free education, food, clothing, who will never be attacked by bandits or Darkspawn, who are part of an wealthy institution and yet they are STILL not happy with all of this and want yet more at the expense of everyone else in the world despite the fact that their super powers have brought the world to the edge of doom multiple times.
The mages wanted to change things peacefully. The Templars forced the war with their refusal to allow any form of peaceful change, instead ramping up their abuse of power. Let’s be fair, it was hardly just the Templars. The war happened because of radicals on both sides. On the Templar side, people like Meredith and Lambert. On the Mage side, people like Anders and Adrian.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 27, 2019 22:10:36 GMT
The mages wanted to change things peacefully. The Templars forced the war with their refusal to allow any form of peaceful change, instead ramping up their abuse of power. Let’s be fair, it was hardly just the Templars. The war happened because of radicals on both sides. On the Templar side, people like Meredith and Lambert. On the Mage side, people like Anders and Adrian. Well, to paraphrase Leliana, what Anders and Adrian did was wrong, but it was how the Templars chose to react which condemns them.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 27, 2019 22:25:58 GMT
Let’s be fair, it was hardly just the Templars. The war happened because of radicals on both sides. On the Templar side, people like Meredith and Lambert. On the Mage side, people like Anders and Adrian. Well, to paraphrase Leliana, what Anders and Adrian did was wrong, but it was how the Templars chose to react which condemns them. It was how Lambert and the Templars in the know react which condemns them. Most Templars like with Kirkwall didn’t know the truth but only what their superiors told them. And people like Anders and Adrian and condemned as well because they manipulated events to cause people like Meredith and Lambert to react the way they did.
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Mithras
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
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Post by Mithras on Dec 27, 2019 22:31:44 GMT
It's not "what about-ism" because what mages want will meaningfully and negatively impact the lives of the peasantry. Just to achieve the the freedom that they desire requires a war that would turn portions of Thedas into hellholes (Hinterlands) And then, if they do win, the peasants suddenly have to deal with a class of super powered beings competing for resources and prestigious places in society. The mages who can't control themselves will abuse their powers and/or become Abominations. Those who can control themselves will leverage their abilities into competing with the nobility for the right to rule over the peasants. So, from my point of view, the "great mage rebellion" is a group of people with super powers who live in palaces, the most extenuating physical work they ever did was waving their fingers, who have access to free education, food, clothing, who will never be attacked by bandits or Darkspawn, who are part of an wealthy institution and yet they are STILL not happy with all of this and want yet more at the expense of everyone else in the world despite the fact that their super powers have brought the world to the edge of doom multiple times.
The mages wanted to change things peacefully. The Templars forced the war with their refusal to allow any form of peaceful change, instead ramping up their abuse of power. The conditions of the peasants and the elves has no bearing on this. You're ignoring the fact that the changes proposed by the mages, even if achieved peacefully, will only make things worse for the peasants.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 27, 2019 22:36:49 GMT
Well, to paraphrase Leliana, what Anders and Adrian did was wrong, but it was how the Templars chose to react which condemns them. It was how Lambert and the Templars in the know react which condemns them. Most Templars like with Kirkwall didn’t know the truth but only what their superiors told them. And people like Anders and Adrian and condemned as well because they manipulated events to cause people like Meredith and Lambert to react the way they did. Even the supposed good Templars still followed orders, and the fact that fanatics like Meredith and Lambert were the ones in charge demonstrates a serious organizational problem. Meanwhile, Anders and Adrian are not members of the mage leadership, and in fact most mages hate Anders for what he did. The only reason the same isn't true of Adrian is because Rhys never told anyone.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 27, 2019 22:50:59 GMT
It was how Lambert and the Templars in the know react which condemns them. Most Templars like with Kirkwall didn’t know the truth but only what their superiors told them. And people like Anders and Adrian and condemned as well because they manipulated events to cause people like Meredith and Lambert to react the way they did. Even the supposed good Templars still followed orders, and the fact that fanatics like Meredith and Lambert were the ones in charge demonstrates a serious organizational problem. Meanwhile, Anders and Adrian are not members of the mage leadership, and in fact most mages hate Anders for what he did. The only reason the same isn't true of Adrian is because Rhys never told anyone. Why wouldn’t they, when all they are given is false information. For example with Kirkwall guarantee they weren’t told Anders blew up the Chantry but the Circle blew up the Chantry. And I agree about those two being individuals. That was the point. You and the others on your side keep excusing one group because it’s just the acts of a small few yet keep condemning the other side of being guilty of the crimes their small few do.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 27, 2019 23:16:10 GMT
Even the supposed good Templars still followed orders, and the fact that fanatics like Meredith and Lambert were the ones in charge demonstrates a serious organizational problem. Meanwhile, Anders and Adrian are not members of the mage leadership, and in fact most mages hate Anders for what he did. The only reason the same isn't true of Adrian is because Rhys never told anyone. Why wouldn’t they, when all they are given is false information. For example with Kirkwall guarantee they weren’t told Anders blew up the Chantry but the Circle blew up the Chantry. And I agree about those two being individuals. That was the point. You and the others on your side keep excusing one group because it’s just the acts of a small few yet keep condemning the other side of being guilty of the crimes their small few do. The rank-and-file had plenty of opportunity to realize that there was something seriously wrong with their orders. Meredith also wasn't the only Templar present who witnessed Anders's actions. Not one of the other Templars who saw it pointed out that her response was completely insane and disproportionate. Not one of them told the truth to those who hadn't been present. Not one of the Templars who had been at the Gallows thought to ask how the resident mages could have destroyed the Chantry from there. Then the Templars elsewhere in Thedas followed Meredith's example and punished all mages for daring to be angry over such an egregious abuse of power. All of these facts indicate serious problems with the system itself, not just a few rogues. Hespith's words apply quite nicely to the Templars. "The true abomination is not that it occurred, but that it was allowed." The crimes committed by Templars such as Meredith were allowed, even tacitly approved, by the structure of the system. Whereas crimes committed by mages such as Anders were done without the knowledge of the mages' leaders, and roundly condemned by them once they learned what he had done.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 27, 2019 23:35:59 GMT
Why wouldn’t they, when all they are given is false information. For example with Kirkwall guarantee they weren’t told Anders blew up the Chantry but the Circle blew up the Chantry. And I agree about those two being individuals. That was the point. You and the others on your side keep excusing one group because it’s just the acts of a small few yet keep condemning the other side of being guilty of the crimes their small few do. The rank-and-file had plenty of opportunity to realize that there was something seriously wrong with their orders. Meredith also wasn't the only Templar present who witnessed Anders's actions. Not one of the other Templars who saw it pointed out that her response was completely insane and disproportionate. Not one of them told the truth to those who hadn't been present. Not one of the Templars who had been at the Gallows thought to ask how the resident mages could have destroyed the Chantry from there. Then the Templars elsewhere in Thedas followed Meredith's example and punished all mages for daring to be angry over such an egregious abuse of power. All of these facts indicate serious problems with the system itself, not just a few rogues. Hespith's words apply quite nicely to the Templars. "The true abomination is not that it occurred, but that it was allowed." The crimes committed by Templars such as Meredith were allowed, even tacitly approved, by the structure of the system. Whereas crimes committed by mages such as Anders were done without the knowledge of the mages' leaders, and roundly condemned by them once they learned what he had done. Please, share this "plenty of opportunity to realize that there was something seriously wrong with their orders". The vast majority had no timr between getting the orders and the fight breaking out. Many were caught by surprise attacks from the mages Orsino alerted, solidifying the false read on the facts. As for those with Meredith, as I said those in the know have no excuse like the vast majority who weren't. They I fully agree are condemned by their actions. And with how paranoid Meredith had gotten, the ones with her are without a doubt handpicked because they are completely loyal to her so would just spread the story she wanted. As for the Templar across the rest of Thedas, the game established how muddy the facts were. That's literally the reason Cassandra is interrogating Varric: to find out what actually happened. And again, this argument you just used can easily be used against the mages. That's my frustration from both sides of this debate and why it never ends. No offense, but you're all hypocritical with your arguments. You force the other side to recognize certain things, yet ignore your side having the very same issues. Therefore, it goes against what the writers wanted since they wanted to present neither side as right or wrong but instead how complicated each is.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 28, 2019 0:12:55 GMT
The rank-and-file had plenty of opportunity to realize that there was something seriously wrong with their orders. Meredith also wasn't the only Templar present who witnessed Anders's actions. Not one of the other Templars who saw it pointed out that her response was completely insane and disproportionate. Not one of them told the truth to those who hadn't been present. Not one of the Templars who had been at the Gallows thought to ask how the resident mages could have destroyed the Chantry from there. Then the Templars elsewhere in Thedas followed Meredith's example and punished all mages for daring to be angry over such an egregious abuse of power. All of these facts indicate serious problems with the system itself, not just a few rogues. Hespith's words apply quite nicely to the Templars. "The true abomination is not that it occurred, but that it was allowed." The crimes committed by Templars such as Meredith were allowed, even tacitly approved, by the structure of the system. Whereas crimes committed by mages such as Anders were done without the knowledge of the mages' leaders, and roundly condemned by them once they learned what he had done. Please, share this "plenty of opportunity to realize that there was something seriously wrong with their orders". The vast majority had no timr between getting the orders and the fight breaking out. Many were caught by surprise attacks from the mages Orsino alerted, solidifying the false read on the facts. As for those with Meredith, as I said those in the know have no excuse like the vast majority who weren't. They I fully agree are condemned by their actions. And with how paranoid Meredith had gotten, the ones with her are without a doubt handpicked because they are completely loyal to her so would just spread the story she wanted. As for the Templar across the rest of Thedas, the game established how muddy the facts were. That's literally the reason Cassandra is interrogating Varric: to find out what actually happened. And again, this argument you just used can easily be used against the mages. That's my frustration from both sides of this debate and why it never ends. No offense, but you're all hypocritical with your arguments. You force the other side to recognize certain things, yet ignore your side having the very same issues. Therefore, it goes against what the writers wanted since they wanted to present neither side as right or wrong but instead how complicated each is. There was initial fighting in the streets, but because Meredith called the Right of Annulment so abruptly, she needed time to gather the Templars and prepare for the assault on the Gallows. That's time for the truth to be shared and the Templars who weren't present to ask the logical questions. The fact that a Knight-Commander illegally used the Right of Annulment wasn't muddy. The survivors of the Gallows made sure of that, which I've long held was Anders's true plan. There were a lot of details that those survivors didn't know because they weren't part of Hawke's inner circle, but they knew that one essential detail. There's a key difference between the mages and Templars that make it impossible to apply Hespith's words to the mages, and that is the fact that mages are born, while Templars are man-made. Judging all mages by Anders's example is as logically sound as judging all gay men by Jeffrey Dahmer's. The Templars on the other hand, are an organization that is meant to abide by rules and mandates that were themselves designed by people. There are only so many times we can say, "well that's just one bad apple," before there become so many that we have to ask how the system itself produces those bad apples and puts them in positions of power, especially after learning that the Gallows was not the only Circle to have these problems. Why was Meredith allowed to take over a secular government for three years? Why was Gervosio allowed to wipe out a Circle to cover up his Knight-Captain's crimes? Why was Alrik allowed to illegally Tranquilize mages and then sexually abuse them for three years, at least? Why were Templars in other Circles allowed to commit the same crimes as Alrik? These are serious problems in the system itself, not just individual Templars.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 28, 2019 0:27:09 GMT
Please, share this "plenty of opportunity to realize that there was something seriously wrong with their orders". The vast majority had no timr between getting the orders and the fight breaking out. Many were caught by surprise attacks from the mages Orsino alerted, solidifying the false read on the facts. As for those with Meredith, as I said those in the know have no excuse like the vast majority who weren't. They I fully agree are condemned by their actions. And with how paranoid Meredith had gotten, the ones with her are without a doubt handpicked because they are completely loyal to her so would just spread the story she wanted. As for the Templar across the rest of Thedas, the game established how muddy the facts were. That's literally the reason Cassandra is interrogating Varric: to find out what actually happened. And again, this argument you just used can easily be used against the mages. That's my frustration from both sides of this debate and why it never ends. No offense, but you're all hypocritical with your arguments. You force the other side to recognize certain things, yet ignore your side having the very same issues. Therefore, it goes against what the writers wanted since they wanted to present neither side as right or wrong but instead how complicated each is. There was initial fighting in the streets, but because Meredith called the Right of Annulment so abruptly, she needed time to gather the Templars and prepare for the assault on the Gallows. That's time for the truth to be shared and the Templars who weren't present to ask the logical questions. The fact that a Knight-Commander illegally used the Right of Annulment wasn't muddy. The survivors of the Gallows made sure of that, which I've long held was Anders's true plan. There were a lot of details that those survivors didn't know because they weren't part of Hawke's inner circle, but they knew that one essential detail. There's a key difference between the mages and Templars that make it impossible to apply Hespith's words to the mages, and that is the fact that mages are born, while Templars are man-made. Judging all mages by Anders's example is as logically sound as judging all gay men by Jeffrey Dahmer's. The Templars on the other hand, are an organization that is meant to abide by rules and mandates that were themselves designed by people. There are only so many times we can say, "well that's just one bad apple," before there become so many that we have to ask how the system itself produces those bad apples and puts them in positions of power, especially after learning that the Gallows was not the only Circle to have these problems. Why was Meredith allowed to take over a secular government for three years? Why was Gervosio allowed to wipe out a Circle to cover up his Knight-Captain's crimes? Why was Alrik allowed to illegally Tranquilize mages and then sexually abuse them for three years, at least? Why were Templars in other Circles allowed to commit the same crimes as Alrik? These are serious problems in the system itself, not just individual Templars. Thank you for proving my point.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 28, 2019 0:52:52 GMT
The rank-and-file had plenty of opportunity to realize that there was something seriously wrong with their orders. Meredith also wasn't the only Templar present who witnessed Anders's actions. Not one of the other Templars who saw it pointed out that her response was completely insane and disproportionate. Not one of them told the truth to those who hadn't been present. Not one of the Templars who had been at the Gallows thought to ask how the resident mages could have destroyed the Chantry from there. Then the Templars elsewhere in Thedas followed Meredith's example and punished all mages for daring to be angry over such an egregious abuse of power. All of these facts indicate serious problems with the system itself, not just a few rogues. Hespith's words apply quite nicely to the Templars. "The true abomination is not that it occurred, but that it was allowed." The crimes committed by Templars such as Meredith were allowed, even tacitly approved, by the structure of the system. Whereas crimes committed by mages such as Anders were done without the knowledge of the mages' leaders, and roundly condemned by them once they learned what he had done. Please, share this "plenty of opportunity to realize that there was something seriously wrong with their orders". The vast majority had no timr between getting the orders and the fight breaking out. Many were caught by surprise attacks from the mages Orsino alerted, solidifying the false read on the facts. As for those with Meredith, as I said those in the know have no excuse like the vast majority who weren't. They I fully agree are condemned by their actions. And with how paranoid Meredith had gotten, the ones with her are without a doubt handpicked because they are completely loyal to her so would just spread the story she wanted. As for the Templar across the rest of Thedas, the game established how muddy the facts were. That's literally the reason Cassandra is interrogating Varric: to find out what actually happened. And again, this argument you just used can easily be used against the mages. That's my frustration from both sides of this debate and why it never ends. No offense, but you're all hypocritical with your arguments. You force the other side to recognize certain things, yet ignore your side having the very same issues. Therefore, it goes against what the writers wanted since they wanted to present neither side as right or wrong but instead how complicated each is. If that was the writers' intention, then the writers were wrong about it. That happens.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 28, 2019 0:55:20 GMT
There was initial fighting in the streets, but because Meredith called the Right of Annulment so abruptly, she needed time to gather the Templars and prepare for the assault on the Gallows. That's time for the truth to be shared and the Templars who weren't present to ask the logical questions. The fact that a Knight-Commander illegally used the Right of Annulment wasn't muddy. The survivors of the Gallows made sure of that, which I've long held was Anders's true plan. There were a lot of details that those survivors didn't know because they weren't part of Hawke's inner circle, but they knew that one essential detail. There's a key difference between the mages and Templars that make it impossible to apply Hespith's words to the mages, and that is the fact that mages are born, while Templars are man-made. Judging all mages by Anders's example is as logically sound as judging all gay men by Jeffrey Dahmer's. The Templars on the other hand, are an organization that is meant to abide by rules and mandates that were themselves designed by people. There are only so many times we can say, "well that's just one bad apple," before there become so many that we have to ask how the system itself produces those bad apples and puts them in positions of power, especially after learning that the Gallows was not the only Circle to have these problems. Why was Meredith allowed to take over a secular government for three years? Why was Gervosio allowed to wipe out a Circle to cover up his Knight-Captain's crimes? Why was Alrik allowed to illegally Tranquilize mages and then sexually abuse them for three years, at least? Why were Templars in other Circles allowed to commit the same crimes as Alrik? These are serious problems in the system itself, not just individual Templars. Thank you for proving my point. Except I did the opposite. There's a big difference between a race and a man-made organization.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 28, 2019 1:38:25 GMT
Please, share this "plenty of opportunity to realize that there was something seriously wrong with their orders". The vast majority had no timr between getting the orders and the fight breaking out. Many were caught by surprise attacks from the mages Orsino alerted, solidifying the false read on the facts. As for those with Meredith, as I said those in the know have no excuse like the vast majority who weren't. They I fully agree are condemned by their actions. And with how paranoid Meredith had gotten, the ones with her are without a doubt handpicked because they are completely loyal to her so would just spread the story she wanted. As for the Templar across the rest of Thedas, the game established how muddy the facts were. That's literally the reason Cassandra is interrogating Varric: to find out what actually happened. And again, this argument you just used can easily be used against the mages. That's my frustration from both sides of this debate and why it never ends. No offense, but you're all hypocritical with your arguments. You force the other side to recognize certain things, yet ignore your side having the very same issues. Therefore, it goes against what the writers wanted since they wanted to present neither side as right or wrong but instead how complicated each is. If that was the writers' intention, then the writers were wrong about it. That happens. You think kidnapping and mass murdering innocent people are good things. Your voice has no weight.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Dec 28, 2019 1:40:15 GMT
How many accounts of Amelia Stannard's life do we have? And how much detail do they go into? Mainly just the World of Thedas, which clarifies things that Meredith conveniently left out when she used her sister's example to justify her own behavior. I don't have WoT, so what were those things? The only two things I can see on wikia that Meredith didn't mention are that Amelia turned to the demon because the templars were right at her doorstep, and that the templars found her because odd things kept happening around her. Is that about the extent of the detail WoT gives us that Meredith doesn't? One important question: did WoT outright contradict anything Meredith tells us? Specifically, did it contradict Meredith's claim that her parents had some idea how harsh the Circle's tests were, and feared that Amelia couldn't survive them?
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 28, 2019 1:42:40 GMT
Mainly just the World of Thedas, which clarifies things that Meredith conveniently left out when she used her sister's example to justify her own behavior. I don't have WoT, so what were those things? The only two things I can see on wikia that Meredith didn't mention are that Amelia turned to the demon because the templars were right at her doorstep, and that the templars found her because odd things kept happening around her. Is that about the extent of the detail WoT gives us that Meredith doesn't? One important question: did WoT outright contradict anything Meredith tells us? Specifically, did it contradict Meredith's claim that her parents had some idea how harsh the Circle's tests were, and feared that Amelia couldn't survive them? It doesn't contradict anything that I can tell. It just reveals that Meredith left out some details that make her self-justifications more difficult.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Dec 28, 2019 2:39:16 GMT
I don't have WoT, so what were those things? The only two things I can see on wikia that Meredith didn't mention are that Amelia turned to the demon because the templars were right at her doorstep, and that the templars found her because odd things kept happening around her. Is that about the extent of the detail WoT gives us that Meredith doesn't? One important question: did WoT outright contradict anything Meredith tells us? Specifically, did it contradict Meredith's claim that her parents had some idea how harsh the Circle's tests were, and feared that Amelia couldn't survive them? It doesn't contradict anything that I can tell. It just reveals that Meredith left out some details that make her self-justifications more difficult. But the details she does give make it rather easier, right? I agree with Meredith describing the Harrowing as "the Circle's harsh test," but they don't mandate that harsh test to keep bookies in business. They mandate it because the ability to resist a demon's attentions is a relevant skill if you happen to be a mage. You're right: it is relevant that the factor that pushed Amelia over the edge was imminent capture by the templars. But what was there to stop it from being something else? An attack by a footpad, a natural disaster, a parent suddenly taking ill, economic worry in a setting that doesn't have much of a safety net, or just a demon that didn't like hearing "no?"
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 28, 2019 2:58:50 GMT
It doesn't contradict anything that I can tell. It just reveals that Meredith left out some details that make her self-justifications more difficult. But the details she does give make it rather easier, right? I agree with Meredith describing the Harrowing as "the Circle's harsh test," but they don't mandate that harsh test to keep bookies in business. They mandate it because the ability to resist a demon's attentions is a relevant skill if you happen to be a mage. You're right: it is relevant that the factor that pushed Amelia over the edge was imminent capture by the templars. But what was there to stop it from being something else? An attack by a footpad, a natural disaster, a parent suddenly taking ill, economic worry in a setting that doesn't have much of a safety net, or just a demon that didn't like hearing "no?" I can see a place for the Harrowing in a heavily restructured system. However, it should not be the Harrowing vs Tranquiliy. A requirement to live outside the Circle/College maybe, but not mandatory for all mages on pain of something worse than death. It wouldn't have any impact on resources since nearly all Tranquil stay in the Circle anyway. What if Amelia had never become an abomination? What if she had spent her entire life remaining functional and demon-free if not for the Templars' involvement? Such speculations are ultimately meaningless. The fact is that it was the fear of the Templars that triggered Amelia's possession, and the codex mentions other such cases. If Templars exist to prevent the damage caused by abominations, yet the sight of the Templars has a high probability of triggering the creation of an abomination in the first place, then a system run by reasonable people would want to find out why and figure out a way to fix that issue.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Dec 28, 2019 3:15:10 GMT
But the details she does give make it rather easier, right? I agree with Meredith describing the Harrowing as "the Circle's harsh test," but they don't mandate that harsh test to keep bookies in business. They mandate it because the ability to resist a demon's attentions is a relevant skill if you happen to be a mage. You're right: it is relevant that the factor that pushed Amelia over the edge was imminent capture by the templars. But what was there to stop it from being something else? An attack by a footpad, a natural disaster, a parent suddenly taking ill, economic worry in a setting that doesn't have much of a safety net, or just a demon that didn't like hearing "no?" I can see a place for the Harrowing in a heavily restructured system. However, it should not be the Harrowing vs Tranquiliy. A requirement to live outside the Circle/College maybe, but not mandatory for all mages on pain of something worse than death. It wouldn't have any impact on resources since nearly all Tranquil stay in the Circle anyway. Your alternative to Tranquility is that mages should live outside the Circle? The whole point to the Circle is to create a hard target that's difficult to escape and where most of the people around can fight an abomination if they have to, so that people who are at elevated risk of being possessed are easier to handle if it comes to that. And your alternative to Tranquility is to create a second facility outside the first for people even more likely to lose that fight. Ignoring the fact that there's a reason the Chantry isn't taking that risk already, how will that not have an impact on resources? How do you figure that those speculations are meaningless? If the templars were turning people into abominations who wouldn't otherwise have turned, sure, that would mean it was worth thinking about whether the system was a net positive or not. That's why I'm not taking issue with you using Connor as an example: it's not impossible that a different system could have prevented that incident. But you were arguing earlier that Amelia could have been saved with a different system, so I think a discussion on whether or not she would have eventually turned anyway is rather meaningful.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
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Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 7,912 Likes: 24,200
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Post by melbella on Dec 28, 2019 4:24:39 GMT
Just wait till the veil comes down. Then there will no more police and everyone, even non-mages who are now mages, can be abominations. I guess they will have to lock themselves up before that happens, you know, to prevent the apocalypse that someone else is causing.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 28, 2019 5:19:25 GMT
I can see a place for the Harrowing in a heavily restructured system. However, it should not be the Harrowing vs Tranquiliy. A requirement to live outside the Circle/College maybe, but not mandatory for all mages on pain of something worse than death. It wouldn't have any impact on resources since nearly all Tranquil stay in the Circle anyway. Your alternative to Tranquility is that mages should live outside the Circle? The whole point to the Circle is to create a hard target that's difficult to escape and where most of the people around can fight an abomination if they have to, so that people who are at elevated risk of being possessed are easier to handle if it comes to that. And your alternative to Tranquility is to create a second facility outside the first for people even more likely to lose that fight. Ignoring the fact that there's a reason the Chantry isn't taking that risk already, how will that not have an impact on resources? How do you figure that those speculations are meaningless? If the templars were turning people into abominations who wouldn't otherwise have turned, sure, that would mean it was worth thinking about whether the system was a net positive or not. That's why I'm not taking issue with you using Connor as an example: it's not impossible that a different system could have prevented that incident. But you were arguing earlier that Amelia could have been saved with a different system, so I think a discussion on whether or not she would have eventually turned anyway is rather meaningful. You misunderstand. Tranquility should be taken off the table entirely. The Harrowing would be optional, but anyone who has not passed it would not be allowed outside the Circle/College without an escort. The Harrowing is supposed to be a test of a mage's ability to withstand possession, after all. My point about Amelia is that, like Connor, her possession was ultimately a result of her parents not wanting to lose her. Create a system where parents and children are not denied all contact for the rest of their lives, and the prospect of being taken by the Templars is no longer so terrifying, which will minimize instances where the mere sight of a Templar on a person's doorstep results in an abomination.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Dec 28, 2019 5:49:14 GMT
Your alternative to Tranquility is that mages should live outside the Circle? The whole point to the Circle is to create a hard target that's difficult to escape and where most of the people around can fight an abomination if they have to, so that people who are at elevated risk of being possessed are easier to handle if it comes to that. And your alternative to Tranquility is to create a second facility outside the first for people even more likely to lose that fight. Ignoring the fact that there's a reason the Chantry isn't taking that risk already, how will that not have an impact on resources? How do you figure that those speculations are meaningless? If the templars were turning people into abominations who wouldn't otherwise have turned, sure, that would mean it was worth thinking about whether the system was a net positive or not. That's why I'm not taking issue with you using Connor as an example: it's not impossible that a different system could have prevented that incident. But you were arguing earlier that Amelia could have been saved with a different system, so I think a discussion on whether or not she would have eventually turned anyway is rather meaningful. You misunderstand. Tranquility should be taken off the table entirely. The Harrowing would be optional, but anyone who has not passed it would not be allowed outside the Circle/College without an escort. The Harrowing is supposed to be a test of a mage's ability to withstand possession, after all. Oh. Yeah, that does make a lot more sense, but I'm not sure allowing non-Harrowed mages out of the Circle with an escort is entirely safe. After all, Amelia turned into an abomination with templars right there to stop her, and she killed them, her parents, and somewhere in the ballpark of sixty or sixtyfive other people. For that matter, I'm not sure having apprentices who simply can't pass the Harrowing in the Circle long after the current system would have forced them to either fail the Harrowing or turn Tranquil is safe either. Just because I see the logic in locking mages up with other mages, who at least have a chance of fighting off an abomination, doesn't mean I want to force the Harrowed mages to unduly risk their own lives by locking them up with mages who are at a high-risk of turning. I got that you think Tranquility should be off the table entirely, but I'm not sure that's an option. Even the rebel mage leaflet the Circle distributes in Inquisition doesn't say that Tranquility should be off the table entirely: merely that the use of it as a punishment is one of the things they're rebelling against. I get that it's a harsh thing to do, but the situation is harsh too.But that's not the real problem, according to Meredith. She specifically mentioned that their parents were afraid she'd fail the Harrowing. Or, she didn't say "Harrowing," but it's clear that's what she was talking about. So unless whatever solution Thedas comes up with removes the Harrowing, I don't think it would address this problem, and how many more problems do you open up by doing that? And ultimately, how sure are we that Amelia herself wouldn't have been one of those problems either way? What I'm getting at is that, unlike Connor, I don't think the system could have been altered to stop Amelia from becoming a monster. The big tragedy of the magic system in Thedas is that some people are just never going to be safe, and unless Meredith was misrepresenting the situation, Amelia was one of them.
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