Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 30, 2019 3:27:32 GMT
Yes, that is the definition of trolling. Don't try to change the meanings of words. I've addressed your points many times. The only reason you are claiming otherwise is because you don't want to acknowledge that your argument didn't get the results you wanted. You are claiming facts not in evidence. There is no indication that the Circles have tried different policies over the years. In fact, one of the main grievances of the mages is that the Circle refuses to consider alternate ideas or any form of internal change. Solitary confinement, especially for periods as long as a year, is considered a form of torture in the real world. That it is still legal presents a moral failing on the part of institutions that still use it. The effect that it had on Anders is an obvious contributor to why his possession by Justice ended so differently from Wynne's possession by Faith. And again, the Circle that engages in that form of torture is considered overly-permissive by the others. Yes, I have refuted the analogy. You just don't want to admit that it doesn't work. Just because things have been done in the past doesn't mean they were necessary. It is possible to quarantine people without being inhumane about it. It happened to my grandmother and her siblings multiple times in the days before modern vaccines. My grandfather lost two younger brothers because someone with whooping cough wasn't quarantined, but that does not mean that it would have been necessary to treat that epidemic's patient zero inhumanely. Your arguments are predicted on a failure to understand how people think, which is why all of your solutions will inevitably lead to further conflict due to the resentment of people who are being treated inhumanely for crimes they have not committed. Mhm-mhm, then I'll be happy to hear where you got that definition and see it in full, since it's such a reliable basis for you to dismiss people's arguments. Clearly, you live in a fantasy world where inhumane acts can never be necessary even in the most extreme circumstances, where an organization that has existed for a thousand years and according to the records changed a lot in that time must never have wavered at all with those of their policies you disagree with, and where morality and ethics are things that spring up out of nowhere because they just make sense to people, and certainly don't take thousands upon thousands of years to gradually develop and refine. That's just lovely. I'd really like to see that definition on trolling, and then I'm not going to continue this discussion with you. It's too weird, and we're both too stubborn.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 30, 2019 3:50:56 GMT
Yes, that is the definition of trolling. Don't try to change the meanings of words. I've addressed your points many times. The only reason you are claiming otherwise is because you don't want to acknowledge that your argument didn't get the results you wanted. You are claiming facts not in evidence. There is no indication that the Circles have tried different policies over the years. In fact, one of the main grievances of the mages is that the Circle refuses to consider alternate ideas or any form of internal change. Solitary confinement, especially for periods as long as a year, is considered a form of torture in the real world. That it is still legal presents a moral failing on the part of institutions that still use it. The effect that it had on Anders is an obvious contributor to why his possession by Justice ended so differently from Wynne's possession by Faith. And again, the Circle that engages in that form of torture is considered overly-permissive by the others. Yes, I have refuted the analogy. You just don't want to admit that it doesn't work. Just because things have been done in the past doesn't mean they were necessary. It is possible to quarantine people without being inhumane about it. It happened to my grandmother and her siblings multiple times in the days before modern vaccines. My grandfather lost two younger brothers because someone with whooping cough wasn't quarantined, but that does not mean that it would have been necessary to treat that epidemic's patient zero inhumanely. Your arguments are predicted on a failure to understand how people think, which is why all of your solutions will inevitably lead to further conflict due to the resentment of people who are being treated inhumanely for crimes they have not committed. Mhm-mhm, then I'll be happy to hear where you got that definition and see it in full, since it's such a reliable basis for you to dismiss people's arguments. Clearly, you live in a fantasy world where inhumane acts can never be necessary even in the most extreme circumstances, where an organization that has existed for a thousand years and according to the records changed a lot in that time must never have wavered at all with those of their policies you disagree with, and where morality and ethics are things that spring up out of nowhere because they just make sense to people, and certainly don't take thousands upon thousands of years to gradually develop and refine. That's just lovely. I'd really like to see that definition on trolling, and then I'm not going to continue this discussion with you. It's too weird, and we're both too stubborn. Try the TOS of pretty much any forum out there. I live in a world where we have a basic idea of how people think, and why that way of thinking leads to conflict when people are mistreated for crimes they did not commit. I also live in a world where just because something did happen historically doesn't mean it had to happen. Last but not least, I live in a world where people possess deductive reasoning. If you think that the Circle has modified its policy on keeping mages from their families over the years, then please provide examples of them doing so. Otherwise you are assuming facts not in evidence.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 30, 2019 4:36:37 GMT
Try the TOS of pretty much any forum out there. I live in a world where we have a basic idea of how people think, and why that way of thinking leads to conflict when people are mistreated for crimes they did not commit. I also live in a world where just because something did happen historically doesn't mean it had to happen. Last but not least, I live in a world where people possess deductive reasoning. If you think that the Circle has modified its policy on keeping mages from their families over the years, then please provide examples of them doing so. Otherwise you are assuming facts not in evidence. I just did, even though providing a quote would be your responsibility as the one positing a definition, and neither the Proboards TOS or the BSN forum rules back you up. The closest is this: Insults / Provocation and Harassment
Don't insult, provoke or harass other posters. Since all I've done, and all you've actually based your dismissal on, is using pretty damn inoffensive emoticons, that can't realistically be considered any of the three. And the word "trolling" isn't mentioned anywhere that I've seen. So I guess I'm still waiting for that "definition" you're talking about. If it isn't included in your next post then I'll just have to assume that you've been making it up. And if you lived in a world where people actually possessed deductive reasoning on any real scale, always had had some "basic idea of how people thought", and where it was widely accepted that extreme measures weren't warranted even under extreme circumstances, then how the hell do you imagine it ended up looking like it does? It truly confounds me. You yourself recognize that things you consider torture are legal, and that trusted institutions are morally fallible enough to allow that even in the most ethically sensitive modern countries. But a medieval-ish institution that doesn't live up to ideals that even those modern institutions don't is corrupt and self-defeating by default. Just look at Connor himself. It wasn't lackluster training that caused him to terrorize the entire region, nothing we see indicates that Jowan did anything less than a perfectly adequate job tutoring him. The thing that makes him turn is his father being about to die and him not being able to do anything about it. We see both in the mage Origin and in the Circle Tower quest that fully-trained adult mages still fall prey to demons in the exact same way. Meaning that it isn't a lack of qualified training, it's emotionally vulnerable mages being in proximity to events that affect them in ways they can't deal with, and then they turn to demons. Meaning that any mage child surrounded by loved ones in a world where tragedy is around every corner is a disaster waiting to happen. Simple as that. I said I'd end the discussion, so I'm not going to reply to your next post on this topic. I promise I'll read it because it'd be shitty of me not to, but that's it.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 30, 2019 5:14:15 GMT
Try the TOS of pretty much any forum out there. I live in a world where we have a basic idea of how people think, and why that way of thinking leads to conflict when people are mistreated for crimes they did not commit. I also live in a world where just because something did happen historically doesn't mean it had to happen. Last but not least, I live in a world where people possess deductive reasoning. If you think that the Circle has modified its policy on keeping mages from their families over the years, then please provide examples of them doing so. Otherwise you are assuming facts not in evidence. I just did, even though providing a quote would be your responsibility as the one positing a definition, and neither the Proboards TOS or the BSN forum rules back you up. The closest is this: Insults / Provocation and Harassment
Don't insult, provoke or harass other posters. Since all I've done, and all you've actually based your dismissal on, is using pretty damn inoffensive emoticons, that can't realistically be considered any of the three. And the word "trolling" isn't mentioned anywhere that I've seen. So I guess I'm still waiting for that "definition" you're talking about. If it isn't included in your next post then I'll just have to assume that you've been making it up. And if you lived in a world where people actually possessed deductive reasoning on any real scale, always had had some "basic idea of how people thought", and where it was widely accepted that extreme measures weren't warranted even under extreme circumstances, then how the hell do you imagine it ended up looking like it does? It truly confounds me. You yourself recognize that things you consider torture are legal, and that trusted institutions are morally fallible enough to allow that even in the most ethically sensitive modern countries. But a medieval-ish institution that doesn't live up to ideals that even those modern institutions don't is corrupt and self-defeating by default. Just look at Connor himself. It wasn't lackluster training that caused him to terrorize the entire region, nothing we see indicates that Jowan did anything less than a perfectly adequate job tutoring him. The thing that makes him turn is his father being about to die and him not being able to do anything about it. We see both in the mage Origin and in the Circle Tower quest that fully-trained adult mages still fall prey to demons in the exact same way. Meaning that it isn't a lack of qualified training, it's emotionally vulnerable mages being in proximity to events that affect them in ways they can't deal with, and then they turn to demons. Meaning that any mage child surrounded by loved ones in a world where tragedy is around every corner is a disaster waiting to happen. Simple as that. I said I'd end the discussion, so I'm not going to reply to your next post on this topic. I promise I'll read it because it'd be shitty of me not to, but that's it. Provocation is exactly what you've done at points with your use of emojis. Thank you for admitting that you were trolling. It is simple. People and institutions are fallible, yes, but are they willing to change for the better when flaws are found? The Circle has clearly shown that it is not. In fact, the Circle actively resists any sort of improvement even as atrocities continue to pile up, to the point that it is actively doing the opposite of what it was originally created for, which is to protect the mages both from the dangers of magic and from the fear non-mages exhibit. Instead of examining why it is causing the problems it is supposed to prevent, it doubles down on the actions that are causing those problems in the first place, further pushing away the people it claims to protect. No, there is no indication that Jowan was properly training Connor. Considering Jowan himself was a blood mage, and a rather inept one, I find it unlikely that he knows how to train anyone. He also states that he was brought in to teach Connor how to hide his magic from others, not how to control his magic or to resist the allure of demons. The failure to teach him the latter directly led to the undead catastrophe. Also, my solution has never involved mage children being surrounded by loved ones during the most vulnerable stage of their training. Maintaining contact yes, provided the family itself hasn't rejected their mage child, but with the Circle/College as more of a boarding school where certain tests, possibly including the Harrowing, need to be passed in order to go out into the world. As I've stated before, only the most die-hard Libertarians think that there should be no enforcement to prevent the abuse of magic at all. This is the second time that you've claimed that you won't respond anymore. You'll have to excuse me if I don't hold my breath.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Dec 30, 2019 7:15:15 GMT
Given Amelia's condition, where can she learn anything but fear?That doesn't actually answer the weird question, does it? Here's the thing: your position, as I understand it, is that something like the Circle but a whole lot gentler is necessary until the mage learns to stand on their own two feet. The problem is that I don't think Amelia would ever have been able to do that. And even if your system is as much gentler as is practical, I think Amelia's condition would have made it as unacceptable to her as the Circle. I don't think your system, or any other system that doesn't have a way of rewiring Amelia's brain, is going to solve this problem. What makes you so sure? You've read the screen-cap, right? What can the system do with a student who's unstable in addition to having magic? I'm not sure what we can conclude about Amelia based on that. Unless you're trying to argue that their shared bloodline had a propensity towards insanity? But I think that would help my case more than yours. I said, the system was absolutely NOT suitable to solve such a problem, but was able to cause more (in fact did it). We saw the consequences, so it's not a question. The question is, Amelia would have more chance to survive in a humane system? I'm sure, yes. Also, Meredith would have more chance to not go mad. But we never ever can be sure about something what not happened. We just can think about the chances. My point is, the MORE chance. That more chance is, they faced with a great problem, they sure can't handle, but... if the magic doesn't count as a "sin", they probably would ask someone who can help. I don't see what's your point... My point is that I don't think the systems you guys are proposing would have given Amelia an appreciably better chance. Sage was arguing that the Circles are the reason Amelia turned. Now, it's true that she wasn't trained because her parents didn't think she could survive in the Circle, and that the actual spark for her turning was templars showing up at her doorstep, but it sounds like she was a good candidate to turn anyway. Both of the accounts we have of Amelia's personality specifically mention that she probably couldn't have passed the test that shows she's capable of resisting a demon's attentions. If you're going to blame the Templar Order for Amelia turning, don't you need to show that there was something they could have done to stop it? I'm inclined to think that you and the Stannards are right about her chances under the system as it existed, but be honest: how much of a chance did she have under any system?
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Post by Catilina on Dec 30, 2019 12:23:08 GMT
I said, the system was absolutely NOT suitable to solve such a problem, but was able to cause more (in fact did it). We saw the consequences, so it's not a question. The question is, Amelia would have more chance to survive in a humane system? I'm sure, yes. Also, Meredith would have more chance to not go mad. But we never ever can be sure about something what not happened. We just can think about the chances. My point is, the MORE chance. That more chance is, they faced with a great problem, they sure can't handle, but... if the magic doesn't count as a "sin", they probably would ask someone who can help. I don't see what's your point... My point is that I don't think the systems you guys are proposing would have given Amelia an appreciably better chance. Sage was arguing that the Circles are the reason Amelia turned. Now, it's true that she wasn't trained because her parents didn't think she could survive in the Circle, and that the actual spark for her turning was templars showing up at her doorstep, but it sounds like she was a good candidate to turn anyway. Both of the accounts we have of Amelia's personality specifically mention that she probably couldn't have passed the test that shows she's capable of resisting a demon's attentions. If you're going to blame the Templar Order for Amelia turning, don't you need to show that there was something they could have done to stop it? I'm inclined to think that you and the Stannards are right about her chances under the system as it existed, but be honest: how much of a chance did she have under any system? I don't blame the Templar Order, but the whole system. The Templars behave like the system wants them to behave. Also: I believe, that a humane system, where the magic isn't a "sin" can handle the problem with a better chance... we saw what happened in the current system. The current system's "problem-solving" was a failure: it was disastrous, undoubtedly: she destroyed the whole neighbourhood. It can not be worse but can be better... The system failed, and yes, despite that the girl was weak, I see the better chance to her in a humane system. I already said why: because the parents would call a mage earlier if they are not afraid of the consequences as well, not just their daughter's feeling. We can't be sure about anything that not happened, of course, but we can calculate the chances and the outcomes. The fact: we saw the worst scenario: the massacre already happened, and the system was not able to handle. And in the outcome, the inhumane system played a big role. Not just in that case. In Connor's case as well, and probably were more cases as well. Disasters can happen in a humane system as well, Of course, can. Disasters always happen. let's see: the Dalish clans don't have Circles, but seems they're fine with magic/mages, just like the Avvars. We heard accidents, disasters caused by a mage, Of course. But more than in the Southern-system? Not. And this is my point. Humane system, with less disastrous event. An absolutely win-win situation.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Dec 30, 2019 13:38:04 GMT
My point is that I don't think the systems you guys are proposing would have given Amelia an appreciably better chance.
Sage was arguing that the Circles are the reason Amelia turned. Now, it's true that she wasn't trained because her parents didn't think she could survive in the Circle, and that the actual spark for her turning was templars showing up at her doorstep, but it sounds like she was a good candidate to turn anyway. Both of the accounts we have of Amelia's personality specifically mention that she probably couldn't have passed the test that shows she's capable of resisting a demon's attentions.
If you're going to blame the Templar Order for Amelia turning, don't you need to show that there was something they could have done to stop it? I'm inclined to think that you and the Stannards are right about her chances under the system as it existed, but be honest: how much of a chance did she have under any system? I don't blame the Templar Order, but the whole system. The Templars behave like the system wants them to behave. Also: I believe, that a humane system, where the magic isn't a "sin" can handle the problem with a better chance... we saw what happened in the current system. The current system's "problem-solving" was a failure: it was disastrous, undoubtedly: she destroyed the whole neighbourhood. It can not be worse but can be better... The system failed, and yes, despite that the girl was weak, I see the better chance to her in a humane system. I already said why: because the parents would call a mage earlier if they are not afraid of the consequences as well, not just their daughter's feeling. We can't be sure about anything that not happened, of course, but we can calculate the chances and the outcomes. The fact: we saw the worst scenario: the massacre already happened, and the system was not able to handle. And in the outcome, the inhumane system played a big role. Not just in that case. In Connor's case as well, and probably were more cases as well. Disasters can happen in a humane system as well, Of course, can. Disasters always happen. let's see: the Dalish clans don't have Circles, but seems they're fine with magic/mages, just like the Avvars. We heard accidents, disasters caused by a mage, Of course. But more than in the Southern-system? Not. And this is my point. Humane system, with less disastrous event. An absolutely win-win situation. I'm not defending the system as a whole, though. I don't want to get back into that argument, partially because it's occurred to me that we really don't have enough evidence to say whether or not the various human rights violations involved actually decrease the actual number of abominations rampaging in urban areas. Not without a statistical study that I'm not sure Thedas has the infrastructure to do, and that Bioware certainly isn't interested in making for us. The only massacre I'm talking about right now is the one Amelia caused. You're arguing that the inhumane system is to blame for that? I'm not so sure. You're right: a disaster can still happen under a humane system. And I think Amelia is part of the reason why. Unless the system is willing to train her in her own home, it's not going to be able to prevent this disaster, since Amelia went into a wild-eyed panic at the thought of unfamiliar surroundings. And I thought you weren't willing to take that risk? I thought you were in favor of sequestering mages until they had a hold on things?
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Post by Catilina on Dec 30, 2019 14:35:27 GMT
I don't blame the Templar Order, but the whole system. The Templars behave like the system wants them to behave. Also: I believe, that a humane system, where the magic isn't a "sin" can handle the problem with a better chance... we saw what happened in the current system. The current system's "problem-solving" was a failure: it was disastrous, undoubtedly: she destroyed the whole neighbourhood. It can not be worse but can be better... The system failed, and yes, despite that the girl was weak, I see the better chance to her in a humane system. I already said why: because the parents would call a mage earlier if they are not afraid of the consequences as well, not just their daughter's feeling. We can't be sure about anything that not happened, of course, but we can calculate the chances and the outcomes. The fact: we saw the worst scenario: the massacre already happened, and the system was not able to handle. And in the outcome, the inhumane system played a big role. Not just in that case. In Connor's case as well, and probably were more cases as well. Disasters can happen in a humane system as well, Of course, can. Disasters always happen. let's see: the Dalish clans don't have Circles, but seems they're fine with magic/mages, just like the Avvars. We heard accidents, disasters caused by a mage, Of course. But more than in the Southern-system? Not. And this is my point. Humane system, with less disastrous event. An absolutely win-win situation. I'm not defending the system as a whole, though. I don't want to get back into that argument, partially because it's occurred to me that we really don't have enough evidence to say whether or not the various human rights violations involved actually decrease the actual number of abominations rampaging in urban areas. Not without a statistical study that I'm not sure Thedas has the infrastructure to do, and that Bioware certainly isn't interested in making for us. The only massacre I'm talking about right now is the one Amelia caused. You're arguing that the inhumane system is to blame for that? I'm not so sure. You're right: a disaster can still happen under a humane system. And I think Amelia is part of the reason why. Unless the system is willing to train her in her own home, it's not going to be able to prevent this disaster, since Amelia went into a wild-eyed panic at the thought of unfamiliar surroundings. And I thought you weren't willing to take that risk? I thought you were in favor of sequestering mages until they had a hold on things? I think the system is the big part of that disaster what Amelia caused. But even if this would be inevitable (what I don't think), can't justify the system – but strongly against it. The raging abominations are canonically very rare. And I don't see, the system was more effective to prevent the disasters what they can cause, than the other, more humane alternatives – but with the persecution, the system can cause disasters. That was my point. I don't prefer to separate mages totally during their studies, on the contrary, but a boarding school is a good idea.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 14, 2020 5:05:05 GMT
On the PT I just finished I think I understood at least some of what was going on in Meredith's head. Unfortunately, I still think she was the cause of it all. She kept squeezing the mages, turning them tranquil and then leaving them with no choice but to rebel. If she hadn't called for the deaths of all mages I might have been willing to work with her. Given that rogue Hawke's sister is a mage it makes zero sense to allow all mages to be killed.
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Post by yarus on Nov 7, 2020 20:22:43 GMT
Canonically? Absolutely
My Hawke saw what life was like as an apostate and wants none of it.
Plus siding with the mages as a Mage would mean turning against Carver and Aveline and forcing both to choose between their loyalty to Hawke vs their loyalty to law and order and he couldn’t do it.
Plus in the Templar ending Hawke actually had the option to spare/save a few mages, unlike the Mage ending
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Post by Catilina on Nov 7, 2020 21:41:55 GMT
Canonically? Absolutely My Hawke saw what life was like as an apostate and wants none of it. Plus siding with the mages as a Mage would mean turning against Carver and Aveline and forcing both to choose between their loyalty to Hawke vs their loyalty to law and order and he couldn’t do it. Plus in the Templar ending Hawke actually had the option to spare/save a few mages, unlike the Mage ending If Hawke joins to the mages Hawke saves more mages, who are able to spread the hope (epilogue), and leave Kirkwall, what was always a real gallows to mages, an unstable place, where the mages had more nightmares and went suicidal than the other Circles – not only because of Meredith, but Kirkwall's past – the weakened Veil. Hawke who decided to protect the mages HAD option to save them. Hawke DECIDED to save them. Not asked from a criminal mad tyrant to "spare" their life, but fought for them – with them. Hawke at the moment when decides, doesn't know that will be able to save ANY mage: the Annulment means EVERY mage will be massacred. Hawke here agrees a madwoman, to massacre innocents, not the law: lawfully a Templar can't rule over a city – and Meredith prevented the LAWFUL viscount election. Aveline will stay with Hawke (needs a very special set up, to Aveline supports the Templars against Hawke: but will NEVER fight against Hawke – she will drop her sword and says, she paid her debt). Also: on the mage sides, Aveline says, this right thing worthy. (Also: Carver tainted/became Templar because of Aveline: she prevented him to join the City Guards... I don't really care about her conscience – she's able to decide.) About Carver: I see, he can be the ONLY real reason to a mage Hawke to siding with a madwoman, who is the greatest enemy of the whole city, BUT: Carver chose to become a Templar by his own, not his born chose instead him, as in the case of Hawke and Bethany, and their father (meta: if Carver is a Warden, and Hawke supports that madwomen against his/her own people, Carver will be angry – while still helps Hawke, but just because of family).It's NOT betrayal if Hawke decides to protect the mages, Carver can join or not. At the end, Carver and Cullen will turn against Meredith for Hawke, even if Hawke protected the mages.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 8, 2020 8:40:34 GMT
My Hawke saw what life was like as an apostate and wants none of it. Most of the mages that Meredith condemns do not want to be apostates. That is the whole point. Meredith uses the actions of an apostate, Anders, to condemn all the law abiding mages inside the Circle. Even if you support the Circle system, siding with Meredith is not doing this. It is why I always argue that even if Hawke is wholly loyal to the Chantry and the Circle system, even if they supported Meredith at the beginning of Act 3, this should be the point at which they say enough is enough. Even Sebastian agrees with this. As he says, the culprit is standing right there in front of you, Meredith, admitting to the crime so why talk of Annulments? So execute Anders but protect the Circle mages. That is justice and that is abiding by the law. Aveline has never turned against me for doing this even when she was mid range on the friendship/rivalry scale. Also, if you are a mage, then Meredith has just condemned every mage in the city to death, so it should hardly be a surprise when she turns on you at the end. As for Carver, he made his choice when he joined the Templars. That is when he turned against his sibling. He might say that he won't turn you in but he should have realised that at some point he would have to make the choice between the Order and his apostate sibling. That point is reached when Meredith declares the Annulment. As I say above, that applies to every mage in the city, since apostates are automatically outside the law anyway and all the mages in the Circle are effectively condemned as well. That is what Annulment means. Unlike Sebastian, Carver doesn't even question it. That is the extent of his loyalty to his sibling. So why feel loyalty to him? Of course, I realise that the writers make it seem purely a choice between whether you support mage freedom or not, which ignores all the other issues involved and limits role playing. Varric's comments on your decision reflect this. So from that perspective, it does seem as though if you support the Circle system you have to opt for Meredith and her illegal annulment. It is rather disappointing that after all the careful political build up and nuanced approach to the issue, in the end they made it a straight forward choice in this way.
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Post by fylimar on Nov 8, 2020 14:57:52 GMT
Meredith is totally out of her line. SHe never even bother to take Anders into custody - instead she acts, as if it was a plot by the circle mages, without proof and despite Anders already admitting, he did it on his own. I know, that Meredith by this time was already batshit crazy by the lyrium idol. I don't like her at all, but I do think, a non-red lyrium - Meredith might at least have acted a bit bit differently - she might still try to blame Orsino on the long run for everything, mind you.
I personally never saw it as a decision between mage freedom and circle/chantry law. It was more about decency for me and saving people. There was the most powerful woman in the city, with the biggest military force trying to kill a lot of people because of parannoia - it's a no brainer for me to stop her. But I do agree with gerva, that the decision was made very onesided in the game - mage freedom versus chantry law. Most of my Hawkes are all for mage freedom, but I can see a Hawke, that totally supports circles and the chantry coming to the rescue of the mages. Just because you don't agree with Meredith doesn't mean, you can't agree with the chantry in general.
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Post by talyn82 on Nov 12, 2020 3:46:41 GMT
No I've never sided with Meredith like I never sided with the Templars in the first Dragon Age. I have always sided with the mages. I think the Chantry has extreme beliefs when it comes to magic. I know in Kirkwall there are many blood mages and in the first game there was Jowan and the blood mage who took over the tower. But I think that is a byproduct of the Templars strict adherence to the Chantry's laws and preventing the mages freedoms.
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Post by ergates on Nov 15, 2021 11:49:30 GMT
I've never been inclined to side with Meredith, but there are no good choices in that conflict. Hawke loses irrespective of what she does, that's just how the game is set up, all roads lead to the same tragedy.
I'd totally side with the Arishok if the game let me, he's one of the few people in the entire game with clear, relatable motives.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Nov 15, 2021 15:20:44 GMT
I mean...I'm still upset they didn't give us a neutral option where we fight both sides  the game initially gives you that choice only for them to say "you need to pick a side" |
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Post by Catilina on Nov 16, 2021 0:28:53 GMT
I mean...I'm still upset they didn't give us a neutral option where we fight both sides the game initially gives you that choice only for them to say "you need to pick a side" Grand Cleric Elthina was "neutral" – I just say. And Elthina's "neutrality" supported Meredith.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Nov 16, 2021 7:40:17 GMT
I mean...I'm still upset they didn't give us a neutral option where we fight both sides the game initially gives you that choice only for them to say "you need to pick a side" Grand Cleric Elthina was "neutral" – I just say. And Elthina's "neutrality" supported Meredith. Well sure...but Hawke could've just said "I'm on the side of the people" and gotten support from other sources...say, the nobles we get help from against Meredith's "rule" provided we actively sided against her in the Act3 intro. Or the city guard...yes yes, the city guard is somewhat corrupt as well...but at least if we've secured Aveline's friendship/rivalry they'll be somewhat on our side
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Post by Catilina on Nov 16, 2021 12:29:36 GMT
Grand Cleric Elthina was "neutral" – I just say. And Elthina's "neutrality" supported Meredith. Well sure...but Hawke could've just said "I'm on the side of the people" and gotten support from other sources...say, the nobles we get help from against Meredith's "rule" provided we actively sided against her in the Act3 intro. Or the city guard...yes yes, the city guard is somewhat corrupt as well...but at least if we've secured Aveline's friendship/rivalry they'll be somewhat on our side
I see your point about "both sides" forgetting the common people of Kirkwall. But this isn't really true: Orsino said to Meredith, she should stop it before she destroys Kirkwall what she wanted to protect, and Meredith also mentions "people" – like: "people will demand blood". But now imagine that three-front war: everyone against everyone – and later, the Chantry can stigmatize Kirkwall as heretic, because of attacked the Templars, the Chantry's arm (like Threnhold, again?). It wouldn't cause lesser bloodshed –I think, even more!– but also: I see at least seems Hawke would be more active part of that conflict – with involve Kirkwalls civilian too. Interesting, and a missed opportunity. By the way: Hawke already started it with ally the nobles – if Hawke chose the mage side during the game (Act3, Orsino's speech). This part of the story dropped. Intentionally? For the more drama? Or just because they were in lack of time? Anyway, an interesting nuance: but I suppose it was intentional: to show the desperate situation – and that something is bigger than our hero: who can't solve every problem. This is a part of Hawke's Greek drama. (Just a tip.)
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Post by garrusfan1 on Nov 28, 2021 21:15:27 GMT
I have but I don't always. I feel like the templars in DA2 are evil by choice, not all obviously but alot, where as the mages are pushed to the brink and are like "F*** it lets go nuts" I personally in general kill anders and support the mages. The thing with Orsino made absolutely no sense at the end and I am glad they made a joke of it in DAI. Personally I think meredith is a zealot who takes things to the extreme even when there is no reason to do so.
Actually I never side with them if I'm not a mage since I think bethany prefers the circle to being a grey warden so I always have her join the circle instead of dying or being a warden. Bethany was awesome and sweet so I can never side against her. As mage hawk I usually have carver being a warden so that is not an issue. Alas anders always deserves to die which is one of many problems I have with meredith. If your gonna kill all the mages why not kill the one who did the crime. I feel like she should have immediatly slaughtered anders or died trying. If you do side with her she should outright kill them.
Now I never sided with the templars in DAO even though a circle of annulment there makes sense from their standpoint mainly because I know it isn't needed. I used to think I should side with meredith because the people would try to kill the mages anyway but now I don't think so and would probably always side with the mages.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 13, 2021 18:55:04 GMT
By the way: Hawke already started it with ally the nobles – if Hawke chose the mage side during the game (Act3, Orsino's speech). This part of the story dropped. Intentionally? For the more drama? Or just because they were in lack of time? I think it was probably the lack of time. It may also have been something they intended to bring back in during the Exalted March DLC and when that was cancelled the outcome of this interesting aspect of the politics in Act 3 was lost as well. Alas anders always deserves to die which is one of many problems I have with meredith. If your gonna kill all the mages why not kill the one who did the crime. I feel like she should have immediatly slaughtered anders or died trying. This was always a major problem I had with the choice, as I outline above. Even if you are entirely pro-Chantry and pro-Circles what Meredith was doing was both illegal and illogical. We are told at the beginning of Act 3 by Orsino that the majority of the mages had their liberty curtailed and although the Templars under Thrask had been overriding that command, by the end of the Act we had dealt with that problem and to all intents and purposes the majority of the Circle mages were locked in their rooms/cells. So Meredith knows that they cannot possibly be responsible for the bombing of the Chantry, even without Anders' confession. However, he does confess to the crime and then after stating his case he even sits down quietly and waits to die. Yet Meredith prefers to condemn all the mages for his actions but doesn't execute him. Which brings me to another major problem I have and that is whilst Justice probably feels that it is justice for Anders to die, the moment Meredith ignores that solution and instead perpetrates a monstrous injustice in condemning all the other mages, why does Justice not rise up and take over again, like he did with Ser Alric? If you are on the rival path it is pretty much implied that Justice is the dominating force in the relationship but to some extent that only becomes apparent because you are causing Anders to doubt himself. On the friendship path he has not such doubts so he and Justice are working in tandem. If you spare Anders and yet side with the Templars (which seems somewhat odd to me), then he will turn up again later to confront you, so he clearly wants to defend the mages from the injustice then, so why not at the beginning? To be honest, Anders/Justice should have turned on Meredith immediately she declared the Annulment and then perhaps she fled in order to regroup with her full force of Templars, whilst Anders either joins you to defend the mages or has some sort of confrontation with Hawke straight away which can lead to his death but he ought to have attacked Meredith first.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Dec 13, 2021 19:14:13 GMT
By the way: Hawke already started it with ally the nobles – if Hawke chose the mage side during the game (Act3, Orsino's speech). This part of the story dropped. Intentionally? For the more drama? Or just because they were in lack of time? I think it was probably the lack of time. It may also have been something they intended to bring back in during the Exalted March DLC and when that was cancelled the outcome of this interesting aspect of the politics in Act 3 was lost as well. Alas anders always deserves to die which is one of many problems I have with meredith. If your gonna kill all the mages why not kill the one who did the crime. I feel like she should have immediatly slaughtered anders or died trying. This was always a major problem I had with the choice, as I outline above. Even if you are entirely pro-Chantry and pro-Circles what Meredith was doing was both illegal and illogical. We are told at the beginning of Act 3 by Orsino that the majority of the mages had their liberty curtailed and although the Templars under Thrask had been overriding that command, by the end of the Act we had dealt with that problem and to all intents and purposes the majority of the Circle mages were locked in their rooms/cells. So Meredith knows that they cannot possibly be responsible for the bombing of the Chantry, even without Anders' confession. However, he does confess to the crime and then after stating his case he even sits down quietly and waits to die. Yet Meredith prefers to condemn all the mages for his actions but doesn't execute him. Which brings me to another major problem I have and that is whilst Justice probably feels that it is justice for Anders to die, the moment Meredith ignores that solution and instead perpetrates a monstrous injustice in condemning all the other mages, why does Justice not rise up and take over again, like he did with Ser Alric? If you are on the rival path it is pretty much implied that Justice is the dominating force in the relationship but to some extent that only becomes apparent because you are causing Anders to doubt himself. On the friendship path he has not such doubts so he and Justice are working in tandem. If you spare Anders and yet side with the Templars (which seems somewhat odd to me), then he will turn up again later to confront you, so he clearly wants to defend the mages from the injustice then, so why not at the beginning? To be honest, Anders/Justice should have turned on Meredith immediately she declared the Annulment and then perhaps she fled in order to regroup with her full force of Templars, whilst Anders either joins you to defend the mages or has some sort of confrontation with Hawke straight away which can lead to his death but he ought to have attacked Meredith first. I think by that point anders and justice are just insane and he is exhausted and wants it to end. Yes what your saying makes absolute sense and would probably have been the best way to do it. but I think Anders was just like "I did what I had to and now I just want the insanity to stop". The insanity being his mind melding with justice and how he has to fight the impulses and so on. To me Anders actions at the end of DA2 were just him finally losing the fight with justice and giving into it and thus warping justice farther. How else can he justify killing all the innocent people in the chantry. Even if he thinks the grand cleric is responsible through inaction what about all the other people inside? Thus justice has completely switched over to vengence and anders is tired of fighting and just goes along with it.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 13, 2021 20:06:42 GMT
I think it was probably the lack of time. It may also have been something they intended to bring back in during the Exalted March DLC and when that was cancelled the outcome of this interesting aspect of the politics in Act 3 was lost as well. This was always a major problem I had with the choice, as I outline above. Even if you are entirely pro-Chantry and pro-Circles what Meredith was doing was both illegal and illogical. We are told at the beginning of Act 3 by Orsino that the majority of the mages had their liberty curtailed and although the Templars under Thrask had been overriding that command, by the end of the Act we had dealt with that problem and to all intents and purposes the majority of the Circle mages were locked in their rooms/cells. So Meredith knows that they cannot possibly be responsible for the bombing of the Chantry, even without Anders' confession. However, he does confess to the crime and then after stating his case he even sits down quietly and waits to die. Yet Meredith prefers to condemn all the mages for his actions but doesn't execute him. Which brings me to another major problem I have and that is whilst Justice probably feels that it is justice for Anders to die, the moment Meredith ignores that solution and instead perpetrates a monstrous injustice in condemning all the other mages, why does Justice not rise up and take over again, like he did with Ser Alric? If you are on the rival path it is pretty much implied that Justice is the dominating force in the relationship but to some extent that only becomes apparent because you are causing Anders to doubt himself. On the friendship path he has not such doubts so he and Justice are working in tandem. If you spare Anders and yet side with the Templars (which seems somewhat odd to me), then he will turn up again later to confront you, so he clearly wants to defend the mages from the injustice then, so why not at the beginning? To be honest, Anders/Justice should have turned on Meredith immediately she declared the Annulment and then perhaps she fled in order to regroup with her full force of Templars, whilst Anders either joins you to defend the mages or has some sort of confrontation with Hawke straight away which can lead to his death but he ought to have attacked Meredith first. I think by that point anders and justice are just insane and he is exhausted and wants it to end. Yes what your saying makes absolute sense and would probably have been the best way to do it. but I think Anders was just like "I did what I had to and now I just want the insanity to stop". The insanity being his mind melding with justice and how he has to fight the impulses and so on. To me Anders actions at the end of DA2 were just him finally losing the fight with justice and giving into it and thus warping justice farther. How else can he justify killing all the innocent people in the chantry. Even if he thinks the grand cleric is responsible through inaction what about all the other people inside? Thus justice has completely switched over to vengence and anders is tired of fighting and just goes along with it. "Just insane" – an easy explanation... And neither Anders, nor Justice, nor their whole story deserve this. To be honest, I didn't even see, Anders is "losing the fight against Justice" – because he's just as Anders as Justice at the end as well. Sometimes more Anders – sometimes more Justice. If they wanted to show: he lost in Justice/Vengeance – they should do it better.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 14, 2021 9:50:26 GMT
Thus justice has completely switched over to vengence and anders is tired of fighting and just goes along with it. That still doesn't explain why he doesn't immediately turn on Meredith after she declares the Annulment. Also, if Anders is tired of fighting, why does he then return to the fight if you spare his life? He doesn't do it out of gratitude to Hawke because he will do this whether you side with the mages or the Templars, in the latter case turning up to oppose you. Although I suppose you could argue he knows such a confrontation would be fatal and he wants to die. Nevertheless, if Justice has completely turned to Vengeance that is all the more reason why he would immediately turn on Meredith. Not only has she declared the Annulment but she has been responsible for all the atrocities committed against mages. As overall leader you can delegate tasks but not responsibility for what your subordinates do under your command. She also made conditions worse for ordinary citizens by taking over secular rule of the city as well. So the fact he didn't turn on Meredith would suggest that Anders still is in control of the partnership. |
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 14, 2021 10:20:12 GMT
"Just insane" – an easy explanation... And neither Anders, nor Justice, nor their whole story deserve this. This is true and I also felt unhappy when I discovered that the writer had deliberately referenced mental illness and the bipolar condition in particular when writing Anders, which doesn't do justice to anyone suffering from mental illness either. Anders is not insane, although Hawke has those words (or similar) put into their mouth in DAI to explain it, which is actually a cop out. In earlier times people who were mentally ill were thought to be "possessed" because their condition wasn't properly understood. When you are having a psychotic episode it can actually feel like someone else is controlling you but that doesn't necessarily make you incapable of mortal judgments. (I speak from personal experience). This is why the defense "innocent by reason of insanity" is not automatically assumed just because you have a mental health condition. Anders is literally possessed and relationship with Justice is a complex one but Anders seemed rational enough and in control of his own mind to be held accountable for his actions. However, Anders' resentment against the Chantry and the Circle system predated their union. He just lacked the determination to do anything other than rebel against it personally. What Justice did was make him broaden the scope of his rebellion to challenge the system head on, first by participating in the Mage Underground to help mages escape and then, as Meredith's stranglehold on the city became untenable, to take drastic action to highlight the injustices perpetrated by the Chantry. He targeted Elthina because she could have done something to resolve the situation and chose not to, plus the Chantry was responsible for the system that allowed Meredith to operate as she does in the first place. I think we should also not forget that DA2 was not resolved in the end as was originally intended. Had the Exalted March DLC gone ahead, the malign influence on the city of Corypheus and the Idol would have been brought into sharper focus. Someone on You Tube has already suggested that if anyone was adversely affecting Anders and Justice it was the fact that Anders was a Grey Warden and Corypheus wanted to undermine the Chantry, plus the Idol was actually present in the city so it would not just have been Meredith who was affected by it. Funnily enough it would have been a better explanation for Orsion's actions at the end than the one they actually gave as to my mind he was the one who went truly insane. |
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