Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 1, 2019 18:33:52 GMT
Mithras Okay, just a question... You or your sister would be happy in such a place? You would feel, your sister safe in such a place under a madwoman whim? I would feel concerned at first because I have heard unsavory rumors but if she then tells me that things aren't as bad you might think and that she has found happiness in there, I would believe her rather than believe I know better than her or that she is lying.
Well, yeah, that's the whole point.
When people say that Bethany likes the Circle, they don't mean that she wouldn't rather be living in an estate on Hightown and taking her two kids to visit uncle Hawke on weekends. It means that she has found things to be happy about in the Circle such as being with her own kind, not having to hide, teaching the children, etc. Joy found in less ideal situations is no less real or meaningful. And people who understand the limitations imposed upon them by life aren't broken or suffering from Stockholm's Syndrome.
No, you think the Circle is evil. Bethany likes it.
I'm not going to address every single point because it all boils down to "If you don't think like me, you must be mentally broken." but since you don't seem to be aware that if you send Ella to the Circle, she sends you a letter where she details how every other Templar is glad Alrik is gone, I am going to point it out.
Oh, shut up. Being in a Circle doesn't give you PTSD or make you unstable.
"Not Anders", for starters.
A noble wouldn't be able to use blood magic unless he hired an Apostate. In which case, the solution is to put the apostate in the Circle, not getting rid of it.
Lack of adherence to the system caused that problem. If Connor had been in the Circle, nothing would have happened. I find it remarkable how you keep pointing out situations where if the mages had been the Circle, there wouldn't have been an issue as if they reinforce your point rather than mine.
You haven't presented a system that I have seen. All you've said so far was "Let them go and we'll form some anti-magic force, kind of, I guess, I dunno know."
Were mages used by either side? No.
Then does the Chantry keep the mages from using their powers to influence everyday political conflicts, which was my point? Yes.
|
|
inherit
11247
0
1,639
Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
1,200
July 2019
buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Buckeldemon on Dec 1, 2019 19:33:39 GMT
Joy found in less ideal situations is no less real or meaningful. And people who understand the limitations imposed upon them by life aren't broken or suffering from Stockholm's Syndrome. Pretty much everyone living under andrastian teachings could be said to suffer from Stockholm to some extent. It is apparently more prevalent in the out-groups (elves and mages) and lower social classes, but heck, one might say that even nobles are suffering from it. Because chantry dogma demands it. "I know it's hard to imagine, but they don't want to fight. They want things to be normal: no Harrowings, no Tranquil, and no one dying. But none of us are getting that wish now." That's interesting and somewhat contradictory as even for other circles, Harrowings, and either Tranquil or the occasional death (as a result of a "failed" Harrowing perhaps) is the norm.
"Not Anders", for starters. Agreed. But what else? Who judges which mage is "good" or "evil"? Oh, shut up. Being in a Circle doesn't give you PTSD or make you unstable. It might or might not. But claiming that it never happens is either riddiculous or even disingenous, how would such a person as Anders exist otherwise. Besides, dwelling on "The Evils of Magic" 24/7 is something that I would not wonder drive people mad over time, both templars and mages. About if the anti-magical force far forms the accident: where was the heroic templar army from the Circle when Connor's accident happened? And again: the system caused that problem, not only was not able to solve.
Lack of adherence to the system caused that problem. If Connor had been in the Circle, nothing would have happened. I find it remarkable how you keep pointing out situations where if the mages had been the Circle, there wouldn't have been an issue as if they reinforce your point rather than mine. The precious or infamous "system" creating a conflict of interest is the problem in here. A parent does not want to loose their child. The circle pushes. The parents get defensive. The circle pushes more. That's called a vicious circle in my view, pun not intended. And please don't quote your previous example. Comparing permament loss of a child, without ever hearing from them again (unless one is some special noble offspring snowflake like the DeLauncets or Hawke - a.k.a. double standard) to opposing vaccination because a child "does not like needles" is a false equivalency to me.
In ganeral, the Connor/Amalia situation can easily be turned to suit both sides of the argument. You haven't presented a system that I have seen. All you've said so far was "Let them go and we'll form some anti-magic force, kind of, I guess, I dunno know." What I find interesting is that for all the arguing about Checks and Balances for mages, neither you (nor Noxluxe for that matter) ever touched the subject of Checks and Balances for the templars or the Chantry in general. Their rampant abuse of power (on more than just the circles) is okay, then? Then does the Chantry keep the mages from using their powers to influence everyday political conflicts, which was my point? Yes. As far as I remember, you initially just flatout stated that the Chantry is neutral. You are right about nobles not being allowed to bicker with magic, but this does not prevent the Chantry from having infidels fireballed. I would not call that very neutral, to be honest. Also, redirecting the special forces for mundane tasks is a waste of templars.
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 1, 2019 20:11:41 GMT
Pretty much everyone living under andrastian teachings could be said to suffer from Stockholm to some extent. It is apparently more prevalent in the out-groups (elves and mages) and lower social classes, but heck, one might say that even nobles are suffering from it. Because chantry dogma demands it. Are you referring to the belief that humanity has sinned and needs to repent for it? Because the same applies to the entire Western World for the past 2000 years.
Presumably Meredith was making woefully unprepared mages undergo the Harrowing.
Depends if you believe that morality is objective or subjective, I suppose.
Very well, I'll rephrase that. The Circle does not traumatize people by default.
Also, Anders has a lot of mental issues; not the least of which the demon living in his head; but I wouldn't say he is traumatized.
There is no real equivalency because people in our world aren't born with hellgates on their hands. The closest we have is, indeed, if a person had a latent disease that would require him or her to be quarantined for life and the parents refused this, choosing instead to try healing crystals or something despite the fact that the disease could become active at any moment (demonic possession) and cost hundreds of lives or more.
It wasn't the subject. But sure, obviously there needs to be greater oversight on Templar activities.
World of Thedas Volume 1 page 47
"The old ways are disappearing, but the Chantry does not demand their removal or promote hatred against the old deities. The Maker simply stands above them."
The Chantry isn't known for barbecuing unbelievers. The few times we can unequivocally say that they allowed mages to use their powers en masse was either against the Blights or the Qunari.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,492
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Dec 1, 2019 22:10:50 GMT
What I find interesting is that for all the arguing about Checks and Balances for mages, neither you (nor Noxluxe for that matter) ever touched the subject of Checks and Balances for the templars or the Chantry in general. Their rampant abuse of power (on more than just the circles) is okay, then? The reason you don't hear us going on about that is because it's a comparatively trivial issue. Keeping Templars from abusing their power is basically no different from keeping anyone else from doing it. Setting up effective checks and balances for mages is much harder and more complicated, and the consequences for failing to do so are much greater, which is why it's more important to discuss and take seriously. And considering how we've both repeatedly mentioned that the Templars are fallible and in fact do need better oversight, whining about us apparently thinking their abuses are okay is pretty disingenuous. Personally, I'd start by increasing the Chantry staff at the towers. It would relieve a lot of stress for both the mages and the Templars, seeing a few extra faces who aren't either frightening or frightened on a day-to-day basis. Responsible adults, obviously, not teenagers like Lily. People who could help keep tensions in a given tower from escalating, and connect the tower to the rest of society in a more direct way than just cycling Templars in and out. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard of a sell, plenty of sisters and clerics have kind hearts and would abhor the mages suffering, and Templars needlessly bullying and provoking them obviously isn't in anybody's interest given where it can lead. Station a Seeker there too, who would report directly to the Grand Cleric and if necessary to the Divine. Again, nobody is interested in the situation at any of the Circles becoming volatile. The ground-level gates and Annulment are effective last resorts for stopping a disaster from escalating, but more could and should be done to prevent it from ever getting to that point in the first place. Oh, and the scary face-concealing helmets have to go, outside emergencies. They're making the mages too uncomfortable, give the Templars a sense of anonymity that they shouldn't have and are no doubt a nightmare to wear indoors all day anyway, contributing to the Templars' general hostility and resentment. That's just off the top of my head.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 18, 2024 19:20:39 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 1, 2019 22:47:47 GMT
Mithras Absolutely this is the way how people reassure themselves usually. This is a lot easier than face the rude truth. Living in a prison, where the random-Tranquility, the rapes are "daily routine" isn't "less ideal" situation. This is terrible... but of course, people can find some happiness everywhere. This ensures survival in fierce circumstances. But doesn't mean they live happily. This actually a very sad letter. But has hope, of course. Oh yes, and "everyone's happy" if Alrik gone, but Karras is still here, another rapist (if Hawke didn't kill him in Act1...) and who knows, how many yet (Alsik also had many followers, only Hawke's happy gang killed dozens in the tunnel who supported his crimes...) There many things in the Circle (can) gives PTSD or any other mental or physical damage – for example the Harrowing (that also not only cruel and unnecessary, but a danger...), the confinement, violence, abuses... Anders especially a very good mage. One of the best mages. Still able to use blood magic... kidnapping children etc... it matters that s/he hired a mage for it, or used his/her own power? I don't think so. You can feel, that Connor's case proves your standpoint, but it proves the opposite. As you said: if Connor had been in the Circle... IF... that's fucking if... if it doesn't exist, everything is perfect, isn't. But that IF exists. And always will. Your "solution" only a false sense of security. I didn't say, "I dunno know" – such a terrible wording! So... just because I didn't draw a Thedas' map with the exact number and place of those anti-magical police stations, doesn't mean I don't know, how it should work. And of course they can't be here in every case in a minute – but the templars are able now? Not. That police wouldn't work worse, than the Templars. Also, mandatory education/training is very important. The difference is great: they aren't closed for life, so the parents let their child to the school proudly/easily... The dangerous Harrowing and the Tranquility banned. Instead of the Harrowing, they can go to the Fade as exercise. Also, very important to teach non-mage people as well. Again: she's not that idiot. She hates it. I linked the video, you ignored. Let's try again! It was your point, but not mine. My point was that the chantry isn't neutral. They perhaps didn't send mages (perhaps they do – the Circle is their...), but they send templars to solve non-religious problems. For example Celene burned the Alienage for the Divine's request. In return, she supported her in the throne. And that Kirkwall problem, I already mentioned... and many regular problem. The Chantry isn't neutral. But the Chantry should be. And yet, also the Chantry is the greatest political power in Southern-Thedas. But shouldn't be. Because of the Chantry exists to serve man never to rule over him.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 18, 2024 19:20:39 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 1, 2019 23:07:52 GMT
What I find interesting is that for all the arguing about Checks and Balances for mages, neither you (nor Noxluxe for that matter) ever touched the subject of Checks and Balances for the templars or the Chantry in general. Their rampant abuse of power (on more than just the circles) is okay, then? The reason you don't hear us going on about that is because it's a comparatively trivial issue. Keeping Templars from abusing their power is basically no different from keeping anyone else from doing it. Setting up effective checks and balances for mages is much harder and more complicated, and the consequences for failing to do so are much greater, which is why it's more important to discuss and take seriously. And considering how we've both repeatedly mentioned that the Templars are fallible and in fact do need better oversight, whining about us apparently thinking their abuses are okay is pretty disingenuous. Personally, I'd start by increasing the Chantry staff at the towers. It would relieve a lot of stress for both the mages and the Templars, seeing a few extra faces who aren't either frightening or frightened on a day-to-day basis. Responsible adults, obviously, not teenagers like Lily. People who could help keep tensions in a given tower from escalating, and connect the tower to the rest of society in a more direct way than just cycling Templars in and out. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard of a sell, plenty of sisters and clerics have kind hearts and would abhor the mages suffering, and Templars needlessly bullying and provoking them obviously isn't in anybody's interest given where it can lead. Station a Seeker there too, who would report directly to the Grand Cleric and if necessary to the Divine. Again, nobody is interested in the situation at any of the Circles becoming volatile. The ground-level gates and Annulment are effective last resorts for stopping a disaster from escalating, but more could and should be done to prevent it from ever getting to that point in the first place. Oh, and the scary face-concealing helmets have to go, outside emergencies. They're making the mages too uncomfortable, give the Templars a sense of anonymity that they shouldn't have and are no doubt a nightmare to wear indoors all day anyway, contributing to the Templars' general hostility and resentment. That's just off the top of my head. Oh my, such terrible idea! More Keili... she was good enough to see to me. This scene burned into my mind since my first PT.
|
|
inherit
11247
0
1,639
Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
1,200
July 2019
buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Buckeldemon on Dec 2, 2019 0:52:24 GMT
What I find interesting is that for all the arguing about Checks and Balances for mages, neither you (nor Noxluxe for that matter) ever touched the subject of Checks and Balances for the templars or the Chantry in general. Their rampant abuse of power (on more than just the circles) is okay, then? The reason you don't hear us going on about that is because it's a comparatively trivial issue. Keeping Templars from abusing their power is basically no different from keeping anyone else from doing it. Setting up effective checks and balances for mages is much harder and more complicated, and the consequences for failing to do so are much greater, which is why it's more important to discuss and take seriously. And considering how we've both repeatedly mentioned that the Templars are fallible and in fact do need better oversight, whining about us apparently thinking their abuses are okay is pretty disingenuous. Now I'm whining, eh? What got stuck in my head from your posts is basically the impression that you went on and on to aggressively lecture people on what do you think is "right". This is what probably buried the your references to templar failings, at least at first. Also, the apparent inane like battles and team-ups going on in this trench warfare here is what appears disingenous to me. Perhaps the difference are our initial assumtions. You apparently assume bad faith in case of -any- mages, I do that for the Chantry and its forces, simply because of its track record and teachings. Claiming "Divine Rights to do [whatever]" can literally justify anything. Personally, I'd start by increasing the Chantry staff at the towers. It would relieve a lot of stress for both the mages and the Templars, seeing a few extra faces who aren't either frightening or frightened on a day-to-day basis. Responsible adults, obviously, not teenagers like Lily. People who could help keep tensions in a given tower from escalating, and connect the tower to the rest of society in a more direct way than just cycling Templars in and out. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard of a sell, plenty of sisters and clerics have kind hearts and would abhor the mages suffering, and Templars needlessly bullying and provoking them obviously isn't in anybody's interest given where it can lead. Do you know what? Adding what one could call psycho-social support personnel nowadays is something I would advocate as well. I don't see Chantry priests to be the right people for that though, due to the whole nine yards of (insane) chantry rhetoric about guilt, obedience, original sin, corruption and so on. In that vein, any of the people involved (mages, templars and support personnel) should be totally detached from the Chantry and andrastian bias in general. Also, there is one last minor thing, apart from the whole faith issues that mostly irk me: Templars are basically drug addicts. I usually don't think about this too much, but I've seen arguments that put alot of emphasis on that. Just sayin'. I would generally prefer spirit-assited non-mages (Seekers are essentially this), but it would obviously need a different hook for the spirit, as fanatical faith is out for me. Oh, and the scary face-concealing helmets have to go, outside emergencies. They're making the mages too uncomfortable, give the Templars a sense of anonymity that they shouldn't have and are no doubt a nightmare to wear indoors all day anyway, contributing to the Templars' general hostility and resentment. Agreed. At least where I live, the debate about rendering police personnel completely anonymous vs. giving them some sort ID number is still cropping up commonly. Anyway, fuck the buckets. Because of the Chantry exists to serve man never to rule over him.But it was created to rule over anyone, and this my issue. The templar advocates in here apparently don't get that, or deem it a non-issue. That is the point I'm so... irritated about.
Are you referring to the belief that humanity has sinned and needs to repent for it? Because the same applies to the entire Western World for the past 2000 years. Of course. Does not make it any better in either case.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,492
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Dec 2, 2019 16:56:11 GMT
What got stuck in my head from your posts is basically the impression that you went on and on to aggressively lecture people on what do you think is "right". This is what probably buried the your references to templar failings, at least at first. Also, the apparent inane like battles and team-ups going on in this trench warfare here is what appears disingenous to me. Perhaps the difference are our initial assumtions. You apparently assume bad faith in case of -any- mages, I do that for the Chantry and its forces, simply because of its track record and teachings. Claiming "Divine Rights to do [whatever]" can literally justify anything. Do you know what? Adding what one could call psycho-social support personnel nowadays is something I would advocate as well. I don't see Chantry priests to be the right people for that though, due to the whole nine yards of (insane) chantry rhetoric about guilt, obedience, original sin, corruption and so on. In that vein, any of the people involved (mages, templars and support personnel) should be totally detached from the Chantry and andrastian bias in general. Also, there is one last minor thing, apart from the whole faith issues that mostly irk me: Templars are basically drug addicts. I usually don't think about this too much, but I've seen arguments that put alot of emphasis on that. Just sayin'. I would generally prefer spirit-assited non-mages (Seekers are essentially this), but it would obviously need a different hook for the spirit, as fanatical faith is out for me. Agreed. At least where I live, the debate about rendering police personnel completely anonymous vs. giving them some sort ID number is still cropping up commonly. Anyway, fuck the buckets. Then you're not actually reading them, which makes you accusing everyone else of arguing from entrenched positions in bad faith pretty hypocritical. If you can't parse or process what people are actually saying because you're just so angry and frustrated that they disagree with you then that's on you, not them. For you to then misrepresent their positions because it feels more convenient that way is disingenuous as a matter of objective fact. For example, no, I don't assume "bad faith in case of any mages". At no point in any thread have I said anything like that. On the contrary I like a lot, maybe even most, of the mage characters in the setting and find them pleasant and rational people. It's just that statistically, enough of them aren't that letting mages in general do whatever they want is certain to lead to disaster in the long run given how much power any individual one can hold. And of course, even the kind and honorable mages are capable of causing horrific harm upon turning into abominations under the worst circumstances. And normal people don't deserve to be subjected to those things just to make mages feel more welcome in the world. And that's just based on the mages' track record too - which is far more destructive and terrifying than the Chantry's is, but for whatever reason you don't think that's worth taking into consideration. And completely independently from the question of mages and Templars, the two of us have fundamentally different ideas about what faith is and means. To me, your thoughts about religion being some version of Stockholm Syndrome that a war-torn pseudo-medieval world would be better off without just suggest that you've never studied the concept and what it has represented throughout history in any real detail. I don't share your paranoia about Chantry priestesses being insane or fanatical by nature at all. The vast majority of revered mothers and sworn sisters of the Chantry shown throughout the series have been unambigiously good and kind-hearted and sensible women just like many priests and men and women of the cloth are in real life. Head and shoulders above the average Thedasian in terms of both moral clarity and mental stability. I don't see any problem whatsoever with stationing a handful more in each Circle just for the purpose of making the climates there healthier.
|
|
inherit
11247
0
1,639
Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
1,200
July 2019
buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Buckeldemon on Dec 2, 2019 23:04:27 GMT
Then you're not actually reading them, which makes you accusing everyone else of arguing from entrenched positions in bad faith pretty hypocritical. If you can't parse or process what people are actually saying because you're just so angry and frustrated that they disagree with you then that's on you, not them. For you to then misrepresent their positions because it feels more convenient that way is disingenuous as a matter of objective fact. You frequently act as if your stances are the "objective" and "obvious" and "right" in a form and 'tone' that come across as pretty passive-agressive to me. Then I go out of your way to lecture people about it and bring up the same points in almost every single thread even vaguely touching the subject. Are you annoyed by lack of agreement as well? I have no idea what it is. I know that I'm frequenly sliding into passive-aggressive behaviour myself and sometimes cross the line into direct agressiveness in reaction to what comes across as belittling to me. I also see no point in debating more philosophical questions with someone who apparently likes to point out how people disagreeing with what you deem right by merely expressing a line of thought as deserving a firing squad or something along that line.
To me, all this circular arguing in here appears to be just creating bad blood with every single exchange as of now. Dunno, but the creeping assimilation and hostile displacement of any differing views by chantry influence is actually more frightening to me than the brute-force approach of the Qun. Everyone freaks out about the Qun and completely ignores similar notions in case of Andrastianism. Both can qualify as cultural apocalypse to me. One might argue that others tried it as well, but their influence is either almost an non-issue as of now (Evanuris) or they have been already brought into the fold in some way (Tevinter). Are you able to agree to disagree on the degree of focus we both like to put on those issues without putting up another belittling lecture about the blight and blight magisters?
I grew up without any religious background. Therefore all I see from an outside perspective are people getting all giddy about their personal concept of escapism, deeming it the best and trying to beat it into everyone else eventually. Besides coming up with nice plans to abuse people and then cook up a few loopholes to get away without causing another peasant revolt. And that's just from school content. Get rid of the "ours is better and you will join us or suffer a bad fate after death" concept and there might have been a few wars less, I suppose.
Stockholm Syndrome is not entirely correct and gets misused reguarly in public, but you are not above that either, in case of that part about using an already pretty divisive and often deliberately misused political real-world term as an equal to armed robbers (on ships). Learned helplessness or learned pseudo-slave mindset probably describes it better. Constantly telling people that they are [whatever] negative thing unless they follow an extremely narrow and specific set of behaviour and thoughts counts as some sort of mental abuse to me. Especially if it is done by a self-appointed elite.
Many thanks for misconstruing the point I was trying to make. To me, holding people hostage with the assumed sins of mythical forbears appears to be pretty illogical. Why should I care about repenting for something I never did/could not have done and can never make up for anyway? One can be a good person without doing such stuff. Also, "Divine Rights" or "Deus vult" is not a justifacation for anything. I honestly don't know why moving an ethically sensitve issue like the handling of magic away from religious bias of any kind is such a controversial opinion.
... Hanako Ikezawa do you mind joining in and tell us what you are thinking?
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 3, 2019 0:00:03 GMT
Of course. Does not make it any better in either case.
Personally, I disagree. I do not see the harm in teaching people that our hubris can lead to great suffering. Even if you don't believe, if God (or the Maker) are real, then mankind's relationship with Him can't be judged using the same methods or by applying the same standards that we use to judge relationships between humans. For one, He would not be our captor but rather our creator.
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 3, 2019 0:12:30 GMT
I honestly don't know why moving an ethically sensitve issue like the handling of magic away from religious bias of any kind is such a controversial opinion. Well, for one, there aren't any other politically neutral and yet universally accepted international organizations in Thedas. If you delegate the policing of mages to every individual nation in Thedas, you're liable to end up with Orlesian mage battalions using peasants as blood batteries to invade Nevarra who counteract with hordes of undead.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 18, 2024 19:55:26 GMT
30,241
Hanako Ikezawa
22,352
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 0:56:51 GMT
Hanako Ikezawa do you mind joining in and tell us what you are thinking? About which part?
|
|
Quickpaw
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Tuldabar
XBL Gamertag: Shadow Quickpaw
Posts: 452 Likes: 564
inherit
1429
0
Apr 18, 2024 21:01:27 GMT
564
Quickpaw
452
Sept 4, 2016 18:38:24 GMT
September 2016
quickpaw
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Tuldabar
Shadow Quickpaw
|
Post by Quickpaw on Dec 3, 2019 1:07:22 GMT
Personally, I disagree. I do not see the harm in teaching people that our hubris can lead to great suffering. Even if you don't believe, if God (or the Maker) are real, then mankind's relationship with Him can't be judged using the same methods or by applying the same standards that we use to judge relationships between humans. For one, He would not be our captor but rather our creator.
In this case I don't see the difference. Being our "creator" should not give any such being dominion over us. Especially since in both cases, Maker and Yaweh are both capricious narcissistic assholes personally responsible-by their own doctrines-for all mortal suffering.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 18, 2024 19:55:26 GMT
30,241
Hanako Ikezawa
22,352
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 1:08:36 GMT
This topic should probably be dropped since real religions are being brought into it.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,492
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Dec 3, 2019 1:59:16 GMT
I know that I'm frequenly sliding into passive-aggressive behaviour myself and sometimes cross the line into direct agressiveness in reaction to what comes across as belittling to me. I also see no point in debating more philosophical questions with someone who apparently likes to point out how people disagreeing with what you deem right by merely expressing a line of thought as deserving a firing squad or something along that line. To me, all this circular arguing in here appears to be just creating bad blood with every single exchange as of now. Dunno, but the creeping assimilation and hostile displacement of any differing views by chantry influence is actually more frightening to me than the brute-force approach of the Qun. Everyone freaks out about the Qun and completely ignores similar notions in case of Andrastianism. Both can qualify as cultural apocalypse to me. One might argue that others tried it as well, but their influence is either almost an non-issue as of now (Evanuris) or they have been already brought into the fold in some way (Tevinter). Are you able to agree to disagree on the degree of focus we both like to put on those issues without putting up another belittling lecture about the blight and blight magisters?
I grew up without any religious background. Therefore all I see from an outside perspective are people getting all giddy about their personal concept of escapism, deeming it the best and trying to beat it into everyone else eventually. Besides coming up with nice plans to abuse people and then cook up a few loopholes to get away without causing another peasant revolt. And that's just from school content. Get rid of the "ours is better and you will join us or suffer a bad fate after death" concept and there might have been a few wars less, I suppose. Stockholm Syndrome is not entirely correct and gets misused reguarly in public, but you are not above that either, in case of that part about using an already pretty divisive and often deliberately misused political real-world term as an equal to armed robbers (on ships). Learned helplessness or learned pseudo-slave mindset probably describes it better. Constantly telling people that they are [whatever] negative thing unless they follow an extremely narrow and specific set of behaviour and thoughts counts as some sort of mental abuse to me. Especially if it is done by a self-appointed elite.
To me, holding people hostage with the assumed sins of mythical forbears appears to be pretty illogical. Why should I care about repenting for something I never did/could not have done and can never make up for anyway? One can be a good person without doing such stuff. Also, "Divine Rights" or "Deus vult" is not a justifacation for anything. I honestly don't know why moving an ethically sensitve issue like the handling of magic away from religious bias of any kind is such a controversial opinion. Yours and Catilina's position on this topic seems completely wrongheaded to me, and the fact that you abjectly refuse to talk about the world repeatedly ending and entire continents repeatedly being enslaved by mages as in any way relevant to the discussion is a major red flag to me that you just don't want to see it from any perspective except your own. But it's still just a video game discussion, and you shouldn't imagine that I have any ill will towards you, or that I somehow imagine that I know anything about you based on the discussion. That's not the case. That said, yup, the mood turned sour a while ago and neither of us are dealing with it properly. Points to you for being the first to admit it. The way I see it, agreeing to disagree has always been the default every time our discussions have ended or tapered off, even if it wasn't on a particularly pleasant note. I don't resent you for having opinions I disagree with just because I really really disagree with them. Creeping assimilation doesn't scare me, and I'm not sure what "forced displacement" you're talking about in regards to the Chantry. Culture isn't something pure and self-contained, they're always constantly affecting and conflicting with each other, and the strongest tend to dominate as with everything else. And people have benefited immensely from that process throughout history even though there have obviously been atrocities too. What scares me most is people suffering for whatever reason, not their cultures. I didn't grow up with a religious background either, and am in fact still an Atheist, but I enjoy reading and analyzing stories. And every major religious text you could name if you actually read them is jam-packed with great stories full of rock solid values and messages about how to live wise and healthy lives that were revolutionary for their times, and helped elevate their respective civilizations as they used storytelling and metaphors to develop more refined moral values, which ours are specifically based on. That's nothing to sneeze at. The idea that religions have caused a lot of wars doesn't really hold any water for me. People have killed each other for an infinite number of different reasons, from resource scarcity to cultural resentment to nihilism to simple greed. Theology has occasionally been used as an excuse, sure, but it's not like people have ever needed much of one. No priest has certainly ever harmed or tried to cause trouble for me. Being encouraged to act like a decent and compassionate person because it's good for you and everyone else is depending on you to be a good neighbor never struck me as "learned helplessness" or "pseudo-slave mindset". Victimization and puritanism aren't specifically religious phenomenon. You'll notice that they're still abound in heavily secular societies, in some cases even moreso. They're just shitty things people do when they're confused and frustrated and feel like taking it out on each other. Since we're going way into it then, the way I understand the different original sin narratives and how they're meant to come across is this. The "sins of your forebearers" as you put it are a metaphor for the inevitable occasional lapses in judgement and morality that all people share on some level because of course we do, always have and always will. You and I take responsibility for "the sins of our forebearers" by being mindful of our own natural moral weaknesses and being ready to willingly compensate and make up for them when they cause problems. Because it makes us better people and keeps the community healthier. Simple as that. All the guilt and blaming and mistreatment associated with the idea today is just people being people. The core idea is about personal responsibility, and it was one of the very first and probably one of the most helpful for getting stable societies going in the first place. Once you stop reading religious teaching as an attempt to get you to believe the untrue and exploit you, and instead view it as a collection of codified moral stories and metaphors that people choose to live as if are true because it clarifies right and wrong for them and leads to healthier lives, the whole thing starts making a lot more sense. And no, one can't just "be a good person without doing such stuff". If it was that easy then everyone would be doing it, wouldn't they?
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 18, 2024 19:20:39 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 3, 2019 2:33:16 GMT
Noxluxe Oh, your sacred responsibility... The main problem (Anders also points to that), the mages can't take any responsibility. They're treated as children, separated from every reality in a tower.
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 3, 2019 14:44:36 GMT
Absolutely this is the way how people reassure themselves usually. This is a lot easier than face the rude truth. You know, if Bethany was a real person, she'd be really offended with you for thinking that you know her own feeling so much better than her.
First of all, there weren't random Tranquilities and rapes were not a daily routine. No one ever said anything even approximating what you are stating as fact. Second, "Well, I don't think I could ever be happy in the Circle, so obviously no one else could either." That's what you are saying.
Yes, but you are treating it as if anyone who has been in a Circle is automatically going to be suffering from mental damage, particularly if they support it, which is nonsensical.
Also, the Harrowing is just, fair and necessary. This is what mages are going to be facing for the rest of their lives. If they can't overcome it, then it's better than this is proven early and under controlled conditions rather than when innocent lives may be placed in jeopardy.
Are you aware that if Anders kills Ella, he wants to go to her funeral and tell her parents that it was the Templars who did it?
Anders is willing to walk into the funeral of the girl he murdered, stare into the faces of her grieving parents and lie in order to support his political beliefs. This is not even extremism at this point, it's just being unashamedly evil.
Yes, it does because the percentage of normal people who are wealthy enough to find and hire and apostate willing to use blood magic for them is very small whereas the percentage of mages who have the potential to use blood magic is 100%
I feel like I am repeating myself. It's not about the Circle system being perfect. No system will ever be perfect and able to account for every eventuality. You're the one applying these impossible standards, not me. It's about reducing the danger as much as possible. If you have a policy where you actively pursue all mages and lock them away in a tower with one of the best fighting forces in the world guarding them, thus reducing their response time to minutes then logic dictates that the majority of magical incidents will take place inside the tower where it will be promptly dealt with with a minimum of casualties. If you disperse this population through a much wider area AKA the whole freaking world and the Templars are hours if not days away then, logically, the number of deaths will be much greater when accidents do happen. This is basic logic.
Well, considering how you have repeatedly claimed that your system is so much fairer and safer then, by all means, elucidate us. Is there going to be a mage fighting force in every single town dotting the map? Who is paying their salaries, buying their rations, maintaining their armor and weapons? Who exactly is in charge of them? Who is going to train them? Who is paying for these "mage colleges"? Again, is there going to be one in every single little town, even those who don't appear on the maps? If not, what happens when a kid has to be sent away to be trained? Is the whole family carted along? If not, how is this any different from the Circle? Remember that with Thedas' current technological level, it takes weeks to travel across a small country such as Ferelden. This isn't as simple as "Well, they can go back home at night" because home may very well be two weeks travel away. And who exactly is in charge of these colleges? The Chantry? Each nation? Who polices them?
Yes, yes it would!
In the current Circle system, maybe 5% or so of mages are living amidst the public and thus endangering them. In your system, a whole 100% of them would be. The number of possible accidents are smaller, ergo the number of deaths is also smaller.
What exactly is so hard to understand about this?
I didn't ignore it, I discounted it. If you side with the Templars, Sebastian says "They will all pay for what Anders did." whereas if you side with the mages, he'll say "But not every mage is Anders." Those end game dialogues are not about what the characters think, they change in order to reflect the side that Hawke supports ergo, unless the character is specifically disagreeing with Hawke, they can be safely discounted as nonsense.
If we're not even talking about the same thing, then what's the point?
My concerns regarding the neutrality of the Chantry begins and ends with their ability and willingness to keep mages from playing a role in the lives of normal people.
Which I don't agree with.
You know, for all that people talk about Tranquility being worse than death, I would gladly undergo it. And I'm not even a mage.
I hate to say this because it seems as if in the Internet everyone has mental issues, but as a sufferer of anxiety and depression for years, Tranquility sounds like Heaven to me. Keeping all my mental faculties while being rid of self doubt, self disgust, fear? Where do I sign up?
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 18, 2024 19:20:39 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 3, 2019 18:17:26 GMT
Mithras About Bethany: You're right about that seems the game try to serve every viewpoint: so, if Hawke supports the madwoman against Bethany, but doesn't let that abomination to kill Bethany, she will hug Hawke. I also said: this is one of the saddest moment in the game, because she thinks she's unworthy ("Thank you. I don't know if I deserved your help. [...] "Can we go? I... don't want to be here any longer" Seems Bethany's very happy. Such a confident, satisfied woman! So: I can say the same: if Bethany was a real person, she'd be really offended with you for thinking that you know her own feeling so much better than her. The difference, That the truth's with me, her words verify me. Just watch that video at templar side and mine, at mage side... The difference is clear. She obviously was in love with that Circle, doesn't she? Of course, the "daily routine" was an exaggeration, it was in quotation mark, but the random and even unlawful tranquility (while the law was awful enough as well...), murders and rapes happened. Not just Anders said, but the others as well. You mentioned Alain as a good mage... so: Karras visited her in his cell, and blackmailed him not to tell about those visits. So: not only Alrik was rapist. Many of them. Those Templars who fought against Hawke and Anders obviously supported him in his crime. And Karras... and his supporters (if Hawke kills him in Act1, some Templars attack Hawke in Act2. And he was openly a dirty pig). Also Thrask (Templar) says, that Meredith randomly kills the Starkhaven mages – that's evil method, no doubt. Not even lawful. But you think, Bethany was so idiot (or didn't care what happens with the others, until she can avoid the troubles, but Bethany, I think, not that kind of person – of course, perhaps, I misunderstand her personality again...) that she LOVES to live in this place... *** About Anders: I know that conversation. He's not perfect. But not too far from the truth. If Hawke and he aren't here, Alrik would kill her mind, and would use her body for his joy, like he used other mages (also a conversation at the Gallows). Also, here I said: Anders was a good mage... and he was. He learned what he should in the Circle, and did, what he should do. "He was trying to change the world. He knew it couldn't happen peacefully. (Hawke in Inquisition, who supports Anders) Dark times, dark methods... my Hawkes can live with it, and with him. You justify a whole evil and dangerous system –that imprison innocent people– with the Tranquility, the "Right" of Annulment, Harrowing (not, the Harrowing isn't safe, and not even help to minimize the accidents – it's rather dangerous... but I wrote it why, in another topic; if I find it, I'll link it). I can forgive an improper wording and bad idea – and to justify one act for igniting the spark of rebellion. Grey morality, isn't? In a world, where the annulment is a "right", of course I can justify Anders. *** About that who will financing and maintain the training of the mages and the anti-magical force The mages will train the mage chidren and the non-mages, who interest (like Dagna), who else... Who is paying them? Who paying now? Oh, I see... the Tranquil's work maintains the Circle... so, they should make mages tranquil for the free, obedient workers... slaves, yes. But. The college of Enchanters would be able to finance the educations, and the anti-magical force/police with –as you said– the nations. It's so weird? Who finance the city guards? The nations and the cities. To keep people safe... The Circles are much more expensive. Also: the mages have an interest in it, because they may strong, but still a very little minority, and they know what happened. Some of them perhaps, would try to abuse their power, but I'm sure the majority not. Just as the non-mage people: some of them are criminals, but the majority of them is against the crimes. *** About the Tranquility: It's not like the tranquil can get rid of their fears and nightmares, but means EVERYTHING that matters. The emotions aren't just fear, not even just love and hatred and anger. Without emotions where is the motivation? The satisfaction if you're done with work? To recognize and enjoy the beauty... It's not more than they prefer the life over the death. Also, this isn't a cure for nightmares and fears. This ruins the brain and the personality – it's like the evilest method of blood magic. I just say. And this is legal, in fact the Chantry says, it's a mercy...
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 18, 2024 19:55:26 GMT
30,241
Hanako Ikezawa
22,352
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 18:33:57 GMT
Are you aware that if Anders kills Ella, he wants to go to her funeral and tell her parents that it was the Templars who did it?Anders is willing to walk into the funeral of the girl he murdered, stare into the faces of her grieving parents and lie in order to support his political beliefs. This is not even extremism at this point, it's just being unashamedly evil. Wow, I was unaware of that conversation with Anders because I always save her from him. I did not think my opinion of Anders could get any lower, but there it is. Aldo Catilina I saw your defense of that (what a surprise) and all I can say is you should be ashamed of yourself. You reminded me of this Codex entry: Orana was brought to the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall at the age of five. Her mentors had high hopes for the child, seeing her talent for magic. Unfortunately, the poor child was plagued by nightmares that only worsened after her move to the Gallows.Orana became afraid of falling asleep. She would lie stiffly in bed, her eyes wide open. Without sleep, she grew thin and wan, and her studies began to suffer.Orana began to experience waking dreams. Shadows flitted in corners, and she swore she heard voices calling her name. She knew demons could take advantage of her vulnerable state, and at the tender age of eleven, she requested to be made Tranquil. The first enchanter complied.With her connection to the Fade severed, Orana was again able to sleep. Her health returned, and she was at peace with her decision. She continued her education at the Circle and excelled in enchanting and runecrafting.Orana saw the Rite of Tranquility as a gift, although many mocked her for this view. Later in life, she created an amulet to remind her of the Rite. She named it Tranquility. The Tranquility Amulet soothes the mind and imparts a general sense of well-being to its wearer.dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Tranquility
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 18, 2024 19:20:39 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 3, 2019 18:42:22 GMT
|
|
Mithras
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 119 Likes: 141
inherit
11355
0
141
Mithras
119
Nov 19, 2019 14:29:21 GMT
November 2019
mithras
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Mithras on Dec 3, 2019 19:23:47 GMT
Are you aware that if Anders kills Ella, he wants to go to her funeral and tell her parents that it was the Templars who did it?Anders is willing to walk into the funeral of the girl he murdered, stare into the faces of her grieving parents and lie in order to support his political beliefs. This is not even extremism at this point, it's just being unashamedly evil. Wow, I was unaware of that conversation with Anders because I always save her from him. I did not think my opinion of Anders could get any lower, but there it is. Aldo Catilina I saw your defense of that (what a surprise) and all I can say is you should be ashamed of yourself. Yeah, this is a rare dialogue because it only appears if you let him kill Ella and then click on him specifically at his clinic, it doesn't happen anywhere else.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 18, 2024 19:55:26 GMT
30,241
Hanako Ikezawa
22,352
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 19:29:17 GMT
Wow, I was unaware of that conversation with Anders because I always save her from him. I did not think my opinion of Anders could get any lower, but there it is. Aldo Catilina I saw your defense of that (what a surprise) and all I can say is you should be ashamed of yourself. Yeah, this is a rare dialogue because it only appears if you let him kill Ella and then click on him specifically at his clinic, it doesn't happen anywhere else.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,492
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Dec 3, 2019 20:20:06 GMT
I disagree about the Rite of Tranquility, even having struggled with my fair share of anxiety and depression too.
While the idea of Tranquil mages removes the issue of suffering slaves from the slavery part of the problem, it still encourages people to more readily dehumanize and act callously towards other humans and elves, and inevitably helps or at least threatens to corrupt whoever is around the Tranquil by tempting them to take advantage with impunity. Exactly like good old-fashioned slavery does.
Basically, even accepting that state of being by your own choice would ultimately help increase the likelihood of others suffering, and would at the very least put undue and unnatural pressure on those around you to resist exploiting your vulnerable state every day for the rest of your life.
That's not an okay compromise to make just to personally feel better, in my opinion.
The only situation where I might find it defensible would be if a clearly disturbing mage was carrying vital information necessary to save lives, and making them Tranquil was the only way to get them to cooperate. And even then, I think killing them immediately afterwards would be by far the best solution.
Tranqualization as a practice would have to go for the Templars to be able to do their jobs more ethically, and given the chance it would be one of my top priorities.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 18, 2024 19:55:26 GMT
30,241
Hanako Ikezawa
22,352
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 20:24:25 GMT
Tranquility shouldn’t be used as a punishment, but it absolutely should be available as an option for those who want it like Orana in the Codex entry I posted earlier. Why should her life be an everlasting hell when there is a way for her to avoid that?
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 18, 2024 19:20:39 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Dec 3, 2019 20:37:35 GMT
Tranquility shouldn’t be used as a punishment, but it absolutely should be available as an option for those who want it like Orana in the Codex entry I posted earlier. Why should her life be an everlasting hell when there is a way for her to avoid that? Probably not to keep her in a Circle, especially not in Kirkwall, could help. But not the Tranquility. It must be banned – and not to use like if would be a "cure".
|
|