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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 20:41:29 GMT
Tranquility shouldn’t be used as a punishment, but it absolutely should be available as an option for those who want it like Orana in the Codex entry I posted earlier. Why should her life be an everlasting hell when there is a way for her to avoid that? Probably not to keep her in a Circle, especially not in Kirkwall, could help. But not the Tranquility. It must be banned – and not to use like if would be a "cure". No matter where she was, she'd be experiencing the same situation. So again I ask, why should she suffer a life of torment when there is a way for her to be at peace? Why do you condone torturing mages? Though to be honest I fear your answer, since you literally just excused murdering an innocent person and using their death to your benefit because "Well at least she didn't get raped then."
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Post by Catilina on Dec 3, 2019 20:48:48 GMT
Probably not to keep her in a Circle, especially not in Kirkwall, could help. But not the Tranquility. It must be banned – and not to use like if would be a "cure". No matter where she was, she'd be experiencing the same situation. So again I ask, why should she suffer a life of torment when there is a way for her to be at peace? Why do you condone torturing mages? Though to be honest I fear your answer, since you literally just excused murdering an innocent person and using their death to your benefit because "Well at least she didn't get raped then." Kirkwall Circle (and every Circle) is the torture. Tranquility is a torture. It's not a cure. Do you think, if someone suffers from nightmares, should be lobotomized, to "help" them to get rid of the nightmares? Oh, such a great "solution". To thinking about that this is some cure or "solution" leads to this: dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Journal_of_the_TranquilThis man should never be a Tranquil! This is a serious sin, that the Tranquility used on this way, with the chantry's agreement, support. And with the Chantry's recommendation. By the way... Ella wouldn't "just" (holy fcng shit!) raped... but lobotomized and used by them. And I dind't say that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 20:57:35 GMT
No matter where she was, she'd be experiencing the same situation. So again I ask, why should she suffer a life of torment when there is a way for her to be at peace? Why do you condone torturing mages? Though to be honest I fear your answer, since you literally just excused murdering an innocent person and using their death to your benefit because "Well at least she didn't get raped then." Kirkwall Circle (and every Circle) is the torture. Tranquility is a torture. It's not a cure. Do you think, if someone suffers from nightmares, should be lobotomized, to "help" them to get rid of the nightmares? Oh, such a great "solution". To thinking about that this is some cure or "solution" leads to this: dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Journal_of_the_TranquilThis man should never be a Tranquil! This is a serious sin, that the Tranquility used on this way, with the chantry's agreement, support. And with the Chantry's recommendation. Disagree entirely. For her it was a literal lifesaver and by definition a cure for her situation. If they were suffering from them so much that it was actually killing them, there was no other available solution, and they wanted it then yes absolutely. Meanwhile you’re sounding like those who when they see people suffering a medical condition deny them medicine they need and leave them to suffer. I believe I said it shouldn’t be used as a punishment but only if the mage themselves want it. Anyway, good to know that you don’t actually care about mages since you’ll let them suffer a terrible life for no good reason.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 3, 2019 21:00:27 GMT
Kirkwall Circle (and every Circle) is the torture. Tranquility is a torture. It's not a cure. Do you think, if someone suffers from nightmares, should be lobotomized, to "help" them to get rid of the nightmares? Oh, such a great "solution". To thinking about that this is some cure or "solution" leads to this: dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Journal_of_the_TranquilThis man should never be a Tranquil! This is a serious sin, that the Tranquility used on this way, with the chantry's agreement, support. And with the Chantry's recommendation. Disagree entirely. For her it was a literal lifesaver and by definition a cure for her situation. If they were suffering from them so much that it was actually killing them, there was no other available solution, and they wanted it then yes absolutely. Meanwhile you’re sounding like those who when they see people suffering a medical condition deny them medicine they need and leave them to suffer. I believe I said it shouldn’t be used as a punishment but only if the mage themselves want it. Anyway, good to know that you don’t actually care about mages since you’ll let them suffer a terrible life for no good reason. The Tranquility isn't some medicament! This is... holy shit! That erase their whole personality. It is the death – or rather worse. Did you read that guy's journal? That happen, if they think, this is some cure of their nightmare/"sin".
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 21:05:11 GMT
By the way... Ella wouldn't "just" (holy fcng shit!) raped... but lobotomized and used by them. And I dind't say that. Yes. You did. I know that conversation. He's not perfect. But not too far from the truth. If Hawke and he aren't here, Alrik would kill her mind, and would use her body for his joy, like he used other mages (also a conversation at the Gallows). Also, here I said: Anders was a good mage... and he was. He learned what he should in the Circle, and did, what he should do. "He was trying to change the world. He knew it couldn't happen peacefully. (Hawke in Inquisition, who supports Anders) Dark times, dark methods... my Hawkes can live with it, and with him. I can forgive an improper wording and bad idea – and to justify one act for igniting the spark of rebellion. Grey morality, isn't? In a world, where the annulment is a "right", of course I can justify Anders. This whole quote has you saying what he did was a service to her instead of the heinous crime it actually was, as well as constant idiotic defenses of his actions. As I said before, you should be ashamed of yourself.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 3, 2019 21:18:12 GMT
By the way... Ella wouldn't "just" (holy fcng shit!) raped... but lobotomized and used by them. And I dind't say that. Yes. You did. I know that conversation. He's not perfect. But not too far from the truth. If Hawke and he aren't here, Alrik would kill her mind, and would use her body for his joy, like he used other mages (also a conversation at the Gallows). Also, here I said: Anders was a good mage... and he was. He learned what he should in the Circle, and did, what he should do. "He was trying to change the world. He knew it couldn't happen peacefully. (Hawke in Inquisition, who supports Anders) Dark times, dark methods... my Hawkes can live with it, and with him. I can forgive an improper wording and bad idea – and to justify one act for igniting the spark of rebellion. Grey morality, isn't? In a world, where the annulment is a "right", of course I can justify Anders. This whole quote has you saying what he did was a service to her instead of the heinous crime it actually was, as well as constant idiotic defenses of his actions. As I said before, you should be ashamed of yourself. No. I didn't say "Well at least she didn't get raped then." I said, they would kill Ella – to kill her personality to use her body as they want – and she wouldn't do against anything. She wouldn't able to do against anything. They would torture Ella. And kill her. And also no. I didn't say, this is a service if he kills her – but yes, I believe, this is still a better fate. I agree, it's not some justification. But this is the truth. Compared with Meredith (even without her big, red sword) and her mob, or rather I go further: compared with everyone who defends that, Anders/Justice, in his worst moments still a knight in shining armour!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 21:48:54 GMT
Yes. You did.
This whole quote has you saying what he did was a service to her instead of the heinous crime it actually was, as well as constant idiotic defenses of his actions. As I said before, you should be ashamed of yourself. No. I didn't say "Well at least she didn't get raped then." I said, they would kill Ella – to kill her personality to use her body as they want – and she wouldn't do against anything. She wouldn't able to do against anything. They would torture Ella. And kill her. And also no. I didn't say, this is a service if he kills her – but yes, I believe, this is still a better fate. I agree, it's not some justification. But this is the truth. Compared with Meredith (even without her big, red sword) and her mob, or rather I go further: compared with everyone who defends that, Anders/Justice, in his worst moments still a knight in shining armour! Congratulations, you managed to completely contradict yourself and prove me right in this post of yours.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 3, 2019 21:57:10 GMT
No. I didn't say "Well at least she didn't get raped then." I said, they would kill Ella – to kill her personality to use her body as they want – and she wouldn't do against anything. She wouldn't able to do against anything. They would torture Ella. And kill her. And also no. I didn't say, this is a service if he kills her – but yes, I believe, this is still a better fate. I agree, it's not some justification. But this is the truth. Compared with Meredith (even without her big, red sword) and her mob, or rather I go further: compared with everyone who defends that, Anders/Justice, in his worst moments still a knight in shining armour! Congratulations, you managed to completely contradict yourself and prove me right in this post of yours. Where is that contradiction? Oh, that thing, I said, it's not some service, but still a better fate... Yes, seemingly it's a contradiction, but not really. Ella's death was not service, but a terrible accident. But that was exactly fortunate, that Hawke and Anders found them. A better fate to Ella (in every case), and a better to everyone in the Circle, that they killed those criminals. (Yes, every Templar here was criminal, because they supported Alrik. If they wouldn't, they would kill him. But they protected him.) That act, they killed the Templar was a service. For everyone. Those monsters will never hurt anyone anymore.
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Post by Quickpaw on Dec 3, 2019 22:50:29 GMT
There is not a single mage made tranquil that considered it merciful, or even good when asked about it once its effects had set in. The two instances we have in game of mages who gave their opinion, Karl considered death to be the mercy FROM the tranquility, and the one who speaks to Mother Giselle at Haven does not believe were she cured that she would be able to live with what had been done to her. (Though the later case is more to do with her treatment by others, which is ANOTHER inherent abomination with the practice)
The Rite of Tranquility when used on a mage (and on an unwilling/knowing Seeker) is an abuse. Full stop. You are killing their soul. The stresses of the Andrastian hate-machine are what put people in danger, not the fact of magic by itself.
Hell, the originators of the practice promised Inquisitor Ameriden that they wouldn't use it for punishment or convenience. A promise they promptly broke.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 22:58:57 GMT
Congratulations, you managed to completely contradict yourself and prove me right in this post of yours. Where is that contradiction? Oh, that thing, I said, it's not some service, but still a better fate... Yes, seemingly it's a contradiction, but not really. Ella's death was not service, but a terrible accident. But that was exactly fortunate, that Hawke and Anders found them. A better fate to Ella (in every case), and a better to everyone in the Circle, that they killed those criminals. (Yes, every Templar here was criminal, because they supported Alrik. If they wouldn't, they would kill him. But they protected him.) That act, they killed the Templar was a service. For everyone. Those monsters will never hurt anyone anymore. It is a contradiction. You say that you didn’t suggest Anders killing her was a good thing, then literally in the next sentence say exactly what you denied. Her death was not an accident. That warmongering terrorist abomination intentionally killed her. That’s a huge difference and if it was anybody but Anders you’d say so too. You just have your nose buried so far up his butt you are blind to things like facts and logic.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 23:05:07 GMT
There is not a single mage made tranquil that considered it merciful, or even good when asked about it once its effects had set in. The two instances we have in game of mages who gave their opinion, Karl considered death to be the mercy FROM the tranquility, and the one who speaks to Mother Giselle at Haven does not believe were she cured that she would be able to live with what had been done to her. (Though the later case is more to do with her treatment by others, which is ANOTHER inherent abomination with the practice) The Rite of Tranquility when used on a mage (and on an unwilling/knowing Seeker) is an abuse. Full stop. You are killing their soul. The stresses of the Andrastian hate-machine are what put people in danger, not the fact of magic by itself. Hell, the originators of the practice promised Inquisitor Ameriden that they wouldn't use it for punishment or convenience. A promise they promptly broke. You mean besides the Codex entry I and ever Catilina linked? Also I didn’t get that impression of that being what Avexis meant. She said her being turned back would be unwise due to all the demons. The part you’re mentioning she only said she’d experience discomfort which is a lot less severe than what you’re implying (besides we all know Cassandra would never let anything happen to her, hence her being with the Inquisition instead of the mages). Again, I agree using it as a punishment is wrong but for those who choose it they should have that option. To deny them that and sentence them to an agonizing existence is just as much an abuse as you claim Tranquility is.
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Post by Quickpaw on Dec 3, 2019 23:13:31 GMT
What stressed out mages need is COUNSELING AND SUPPORT, not lobotomization and indoctrination. And get andrastianism out of it, for that matter.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 23:17:36 GMT
What stressed out mages need is COUNSELING AND SUPPORT, not lobotomization and indoctrination. And get andrastianism out of it, for that matter. I don’t disagree about counseling and support, but again in cases where those aren’t enough like in the codex I linked a mage should have that option. Nothing else was working, so her only two choices were either becoming Tranquil or suffering an excruciating life until she died from it. Of those two options, it isn’t becoming Tranquil that’s the abuse.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 3, 2019 23:31:50 GMT
It is a contradiction. You say that you didn’t suggest Anders killing her was a good thing, then literally in the next sentence say exactly what you denied. Her death was not an accident. That warmongering terrorist abomination intentionally killed her. That’s a huge difference and if it was anybody but Anders you’d say so too. You just have your nose buried so far up his butt you are blind to things like facts and logic. It was not exactly "intentional". I can say, this was an accident. Anders' reaction after that happened (even if he didn't kill Ella), proved that. And it was easy to convince Justice to not do it. Also, I can pardon Fenris for killing the Fog Warriors, who protected him. It was the slave. Oh, and I also see Cullen's first reaction in the Circle, right after the Uldred incident – can be pardoned. He was not himself – he was his fear. (It does not mean I should listen to him, or think for a moment he's right, especially not in DA2 not even in DAI, when he tried to defend Meredith's methods and many things about the mages he said.) So: I can pardon many things in DA – this a dark world, flawed people. Momentary rage, they lost their mind. Meredith and her mob, Alrik, especially, Karras aren't that case. The Chantry's law about the Circle, the Tranquility, the "Right" of Annulment etc isn't something like someone's first reaction, fear, reaction of a slave (in Fenris' case). That law, is pure sin, and very intentional. And seems, some mad, criminal Templar is welcome. So: I can say, that when Hawke and Anders killed Alrik abomination and the others, who protected him, was a great service. What Alrik abomination did with his fiends, was intentional evil. That's undeniable.
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Post by Quickpaw on Dec 3, 2019 23:32:04 GMT
I don’t disagree about counseling and support, but again in cases where those aren’t enough like in the codex I linked a mage should have that option. Nothing else was working, so her only two choices were either becoming Tranquil or suffering an excruciating life until she died from it. Of those two options, it isn’t becoming Tranquil that’s the abuse. Nothing else was working because they were using the Andrastian model and forbidding everything else. In a circle you are told constantly how much of a monster you are for being born a mage, that no one can trust you, etc. That inherently increases the risk factors for possession and instability, not decreases it. A mage is more in danger of magical and moral corruption in a circle than anywhere else in Thedas. You cannot feel safe in a place you are not allowed to leave for no real crime you've committed. Let's drop the pretense and actually describe what 'Circles of Magi' are; prisons for slaves. Let out only when someone needs them for something, locked away for something they have no control over and no option to change. For all it's apparent naivitae and idealism, Leliana as Divine removes the magic stigma, lets mages be their own watchers and lo and behold IT. WORKS.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 3, 2019 23:38:59 GMT
What stressed out mages need is COUNSELING AND SUPPORT, not lobotomization and indoctrination. And get andrastianism out of it, for that matter. I don’t disagree about counseling and support, but again in cases where those aren’t enough like in the codex I linked a mage should have that option. Nothing else was working, so her only two choices were either becoming Tranquil or suffering an excruciating life until she died from it. Of those two options, it isn’t becoming Tranquil that’s the abuse. "Nothing else worked?" What they tried? Wiki:
Oh, they really tried EVERYTHING, and "nothing else was working"... ROFL, you're funny. And those thoughts about "mercy" are scary...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 23:55:34 GMT
It is a contradiction. You say that you didn’t suggest Anders killing her was a good thing, then literally in the next sentence say exactly what you denied. Her death was not an accident. That warmongering terrorist abomination intentionally killed her. That’s a huge difference and if it was anybody but Anders you’d say so too. You just have your nose buried so far up his butt you are blind to things like facts and logic. It was not exactly "intentional". I can say, this was an accident. Anders' reaction after that happened (even if he didn't kill Ella), proved that. And it was easy to convince Justice to not do it. Also, I can pardon Fenris for killing the Fog Warriors, who protected him. It was the slave. Oh, and I also see Cullen's first reaction in the Circle, right after the Uldred incident – can be pardoned. He was not himself – he was his fear. (It does not mean I should listen to him, or think for a moment he's right, especially not in DA2 not even in DAI, when he tried to defend Meredith's methods and many things about the mages he said.) So: I can pardon many things in DA – this a dark world, flawed people. Momentary rage, they lost their mind. Meredith and her mob, Alrik, especially, Karras aren't that case. The Chantry's law about the Circle, the Tranquility, the "Right" of Annulment etc isn't something like someone's first reaction, fear, reaction of a slave (in Fenris' case). That law, is pure sin, and very intentional. And seems, some mad, criminal Templar is welcome. So: I can say, that when Hawke and Anders killed Alrik abomination and the others, who protected him, was a great service. What Alrik abomination did with his fiends, was intentional evil. That's undeniable. It was intentional. Vengeance seeks out "justice" on Ella simply because she calls him a demon (which he is). If you kill someone because they called you something you didn't like, that's intentional homicide aka murder. And Ander's reaction is irrelevant. He willfully chose to let that thing wander about, meaning he is responsible for everything it does. At the very least, that's manslaughter and accessory to murder. Plus as pointed out earlier, if he was truly remorseful he would confess and turn himself in, but instead he planned on going to the funeral of Ella and telling her parents his enemies did it. But okay, even if I accept your explanation of temporary insanity (I don't because he was sane), then by your own argument Anders cannot be forgiven of his mass murder charge because that was intentional and planned instead of spontaneous. Funny how it just so happens that the characters you like can be pardoned, but those you don't who are in the same situation can't. At least try to hide your hypocrisy. I don’t disagree about counseling and support, but again in cases where those aren’t enough like in the codex I linked a mage should have that option. Nothing else was working, so her only two choices were either becoming Tranquil or suffering an excruciating life until she died from it. Of those two options, it isn’t becoming Tranquil that’s the abuse. "Nothing else worked?" What they tried? Wiki:
Oh, they really tried EVERYTHING, and "nothing else was working"... ROFL, you're funny. And those thoughts about "mercy" are scary... Prove to me they immediately did the Tranquility. You can't (you know, because she was the one who chose it). No, thinking murdering innocent people is a good thing is scary. I pray you are never in a position of authority over others.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2019 23:58:01 GMT
I don’t disagree about counseling and support, but again in cases where those aren’t enough like in the codex I linked a mage should have that option. Nothing else was working, so her only two choices were either becoming Tranquil or suffering an excruciating life until she died from it. Of those two options, it isn’t becoming Tranquil that’s the abuse. Nothing else was working because they were using the Andrastian model and forbidding everything else. In a circle you are told constantly how much of a monster you are for being born a mage, that no one can trust you, etc. That inherently increases the risk factors for possession and instability, not decreases it. A mage is more in danger of magical and moral corruption in a circle than anywhere else in Thedas. You cannot feel safe in a place you are not allowed to leave for no real crime you've committed. Let's drop the pretense and actually describe what 'Circles of Magi' are; prisons for slaves. Let out only when someone needs them for something, locked away for something they have no control over and no option to change. For all it's apparent naivitae and idealism, Leliana as Divine removes the magic stigma, lets mages be their own watchers and lo and behold IT. WORKS. That must be why there are no incidents that happen outside the Circles then. *looks at all the incidents throughout the franchise, being more than inside the Circles* Oops, looks like you are wrong. Still, at least you acknowledge the obvious fact they tried other things. But since you are here, do you agree with the other topics being argued by your fellow right now?
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Post by Catilina on Dec 4, 2019 0:05:14 GMT
It was not exactly "intentional". I can say, this was an accident. Anders' reaction after that happened (even if he didn't kill Ella), proved that. And it was easy to convince Justice to not do it. Also, I can pardon Fenris for killing the Fog Warriors, who protected him. It was the slave. Oh, and I also see Cullen's first reaction in the Circle, right after the Uldred incident – can be pardoned. He was not himself – he was his fear. (It does not mean I should listen to him, or think for a moment he's right, especially not in DA2 not even in DAI, when he tried to defend Meredith's methods and many things about the mages he said.) So: I can pardon many things in DA – this a dark world, flawed people. Momentary rage, they lost their mind. Meredith and her mob, Alrik, especially, Karras aren't that case. The Chantry's law about the Circle, the Tranquility, the "Right" of Annulment etc isn't something like someone's first reaction, fear, reaction of a slave (in Fenris' case). That law, is pure sin, and very intentional. And seems, some mad, criminal Templar is welcome. So: I can say, that when Hawke and Anders killed Alrik abomination and the others, who protected him, was a great service. What Alrik abomination did with his fiends, was intentional evil. That's undeniable. It was intentional. Vengeance seeks out "justice" on Ella simply because she calls him a demon (which he is). If you kill someone because they called you something you didn't like, that's intentional homicide aka murder. And Ander's reaction is irrelevant. He willfully chose to let that thing wander about, meaning he is responsible for everything it does. At the very least, that's manslaughter and accessory to murder. Plus as pointed out earlier, if he was truly remorseful he would confess and turn himself in, but instead he planned on going to the funeral of Ella and telling her parents his enemies did it. But okay, even if I accept your explanation of temporary insanity (I don't because he was sane), then by your own argument Anders cannot be forgiven of his mass murder charge because that was intentional and planned instead of spontaneous. Funny how it just so happens that the characters you like can be pardoned, but those you don't who are in the same situation can't. At least try to hide your hypocrisy. "Nothing else worked?" What they tried? Wiki:
Oh, they really tried EVERYTHING, and "nothing else was working"... ROFL, you're funny. And those thoughts about "mercy" are scary... Prove to me they immediately did the Tranquility. You can't (you know, because she was the one who chose it). No, thinking murdering innocent people is a good thing is scary. I pray you are never in a position of authority over others. Who was in the same situation, tell me? About that the Chantry explosion was intentional: Yes. It was intentional. I never denied that. Only that I said, I can accept that, because I can't accept the whole system. Also: it was ONE action, not a centuries old practice to torture people – legally. I never denied, that Anders is responsible. Neither that he chose that, nor that he murdered people. I just think, it was justifiable. Also: I never condemned people, who killed him. It's a valid decision. Just not mine. But I never said, murdering people is "good".
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Post by Catilina on Dec 4, 2019 0:10:48 GMT
Nothing else was working because they were using the Andrastian model and forbidding everything else. In a circle you are told constantly how much of a monster you are for being born a mage, that no one can trust you, etc. That inherently increases the risk factors for possession and instability, not decreases it. A mage is more in danger of magical and moral corruption in a circle than anywhere else in Thedas. You cannot feel safe in a place you are not allowed to leave for no real crime you've committed. Let's drop the pretense and actually describe what 'Circles of Magi' are; prisons for slaves. Let out only when someone needs them for something, locked away for something they have no control over and no option to change. For all it's apparent naivitae and idealism, Leliana as Divine removes the magic stigma, lets mages be their own watchers and lo and behold IT. WORKS. That must be why there are no incidents that happen outside the Circles then. *looks at all the incidents throughout the franchise, being more than inside the Circles* Oops, looks like you are wrong. Still, at least you acknowledge the obvious fact they tried other things. But since you are here, do you agree with the other topics being argued by your fellow right now? You know, Quickpaw doesn't support Anders, yes? Not everyone support his action, or even likes him, who thinks, the Tranquility and the prison-Circle is awful and nothing can justify the Chantry's those practices?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 4, 2019 0:30:25 GMT
It was intentional. Vengeance seeks out "justice" on Ella simply because she calls him a demon (which he is). If you kill someone because they called you something you didn't like, that's intentional homicide aka murder. And Ander's reaction is irrelevant. He willfully chose to let that thing wander about, meaning he is responsible for everything it does. At the very least, that's manslaughter and accessory to murder. Plus as pointed out earlier, if he was truly remorseful he would confess and turn himself in, but instead he planned on going to the funeral of Ella and telling her parents his enemies did it. But okay, even if I accept your explanation of temporary insanity (I don't because he was sane), then by your own argument Anders cannot be forgiven of his mass murder charge because that was intentional and planned instead of spontaneous. Funny how it just so happens that the characters you like can be pardoned, but those you don't who are in the same situation can't. At least try to hide your hypocrisy. Prove to me they immediately did the Tranquility. You can't (you know, because she was the one who chose it). No, thinking murdering innocent people is a good thing is scary. I pray you are never in a position of authority over others. Who was in the same situation, tell me? About that the Chantry explosion was intentional: Yes. It was intentional. I never denied that. Only that I said, I can accept that, because I can't accept the whole system. Also: it was ONE action, not a centuries old practice to torture people – legally. I never denied, that Anders is responsible. Neither that he chose that, nor that he murdered people. I just think, it was justifiable. Also: I never condemned people, who killed him. It's a valid decision. Just not mine. But I never said, murdering people is "good". Well, for example Meredith. One could easily argue her actions were the result of momentary rage or her not being mentally competent when she launched the Annulment. THat irrational behavior is what Anders planned on when he committed his crime. And again, thank you for proving me right and yourself a hypocrite. When Meredith kills hundreds of innocent people, that can't be justified. But when Anders kills hundreds of innocent people, you bend over backwards defending him. Also, one action or a centuries old pattern is irrelevant: it's just as wrong, no matter how long it goes or how many times it happened. And yes, you did say murdering people is good. You've sauid that many times over the years. Every time you defend people like Anders, you are saying that. That must be why there are no incidents that happen outside the Circles then.
*looks at all the incidents throughout the franchise, being more than inside the Circles*
Oops, looks like you are wrong. Still, at least you acknowledge the obvious fact they tried other things.
But since you are here, do you agree with the other topics being argued by your fellow right now? You know, Quickpaw doesn't support Anders, yes? Not everyone support his action, or even likes him, who thinks, the Tranquility and the prison-Circle is awful and nothing can justify the Chantry's those practices? Okay, and? I was just curious about their position on the other matters being discussed.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 4, 2019 0:39:01 GMT
Well, for example Meredith. One could easily argue her actions were the result of momentary rage or her not being mentally competent when she launched the Annulment. After all, her freaking out like that was part of Anders's plan. And again, thank you for proving me right and yourself a hypocrite. When Meredith kills hundreds of innocent people, that can't be justified. But when Anders kills hundreds of innocent people, you bend over backwards defending him. And yes, you did say murdering people is good. You've sauid that many times over the years. Every time you defend people like Anders, you are saying that. No. Meredith's not even similar to Anders. If you don't see, why, I can't help. Perhaps, the others... (pro and contra...) But I can say: Meredith was mentally competent when she tranquilized Maddox, and tranquilized mages for lesser "sins" like Maddox's was... When she let Alrik and the others run amok. When she executed randomly mages... She was mentally competent when she already was a mad criminal tyrant. Not the red lyrium make her criminal the red lyrium was a consequence, not a cause. I didn't spoke about the Annulment as Meredith's main sin (while she planned it, long ago, true, probably she was possessed by the red lyrium already). I spoke about that this is the Chantry's sin. The whole possibility. Also. I see Meredith as a victim of the system, just like she's an aggressor – a very cruel one. Also: the goal is matter. When Meredith serves an evil system, Anders want to eliminate that, to free people, not to lock them. This is why I can justify Anders, and never Meredith. But as i said, I'm not sure, you see the difference, and I can't help in it.
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Post by Quickpaw on Dec 4, 2019 1:26:49 GMT
For the record: No. I do not support Anders. I understand, but that doesn't mean I agree. Like the other mages locked in the Gallows, he suffered the stress of Kirkwall's previous Fade sundering (that started the blights as a periodic thing), the stress of Meredith's tactics (which did not make Kirkwall any safer by any stretch of the immagination) and in his case the stress of a Justice spirit constantly pressing him forward into more and more irrational acts.
In my personal opinion Anders could be considered clinically insane by the end of it. So too could Meredith, however, which is the discussion at hand and why none of my characters support her.
I will agree on this point Anders makes, however. The dam has to burst eventually. The situation with the Circles could not last forever, and certainly shouldn't have lasted as long as it did. to wit: "When's it gonna end?! When'a'we gonna live?! Somethin's gotta happen now or somethin's gotta give!"
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Post by Quickpaw on Dec 4, 2019 1:27:17 GMT
Pardon me double post
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 4, 2019 5:31:05 GMT
Tranquility shouldn’t be used as a punishment, but it absolutely should be available as an option for those who want it like Orana in the Codex entry I posted earlier. Why should her life be an everlasting hell when there is a way for her to avoid that? As I said, if you accept the premise that having ultimate power over other human beings is inherently and irresistibly corrupting, which I do, then leaving yourself in a position to be taken advantage of so easily and thoroughly is a decision that affects more than just yourself. You're either putting it on everyone around you to essentially parent you for the rest of your life, or engendering yourself as subhuman and a second-class citizen whom it's more okay to hurt and abuse than the average person because you "don't really feel it", which is a terrible and dangerous message to be sending to anyone. And as long as it's a thing, Templars will definitely be tempted to use it as punishment. It's just a terrifying and disgusting and messed-up thing to do that makes everyone uncomfortable, and Thedas isn't anywhere near ready to have something like a Tranquil population without it immediately descending into slave labor. And things would most likely be a lot more amicable between templars and mages if it wasn't on the table, which plays into keeping the world safe from escalating magical disasters.
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