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Post by phoray on Jan 3, 2019 23:43:17 GMT
Well, their platform is Tevinter supremacy..... which seems pretty bad to me. Undoubtedly there are some Venatori (like Calpernia) who just want Tevinter to be better, not rule the whole world, but I think since the Venatori were Cory's thing and he explicitly wanted to rule the world as its magical god-king, I think the Venatori name is toooo tainted to make a resurgence as a less radical political party. I'm sure there are other political parties in Tevinter, though. I see what you're saying, I guess I just found the idea of the bad guy becoming normalized. Not so much like they did with Cerberus where you HAVE to work for them or with them, just a subversion of our expectation that they'll continue to be the default bad guy henchmen
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 3, 2019 23:45:25 GMT
Well, their platform is Tevinter supremacy..... which seems pretty bad to me. Undoubtedly there are some Venatori (like Calpernia) who just want Tevinter to be better, not rule the whole world, but I think since the Venatori were Cory's thing and he explicitly wanted to rule the world as its magical god-king, I think the Venatori name is toooo tainted to make a resurgence as a less radical political party. I'm sure there are other political parties in Tevinter, though. I see what you're saying, I guess I just found the idea of the bad guy becoming normalized. Not so much like they did with Cerberus where you HAVE to work for them or with them, just a subversion of our expectation that they'll continue to be the default bad guy henchmen That could be cool - a revamped Venatori. I just don't know if their reputation would be able to recover after Corypheus, even if they did have different goals/ideals.
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Post by phoray on Jan 3, 2019 23:47:57 GMT
I see what you're saying, I guess I just found the idea of the bad guy becoming normalized. Not so much like they did with Cerberus where you HAVE to work for them or with them, just a subversion of our expectation that they'll continue to be the default bad guy henchmen That could be cool - a revamped Venatori. I just don't know if their reputation would be able to recover after Corypheus, even if they did have different goals/ideals. Calpernia would have incentive to revitalize the name possibly? or do you think they gotta burn the name and pick a new one?
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 3, 2019 23:50:15 GMT
Yeah, I think the whole “we tried to raise a darkspawn to godhood” thing kind of poisoned the Venatori brand. Anyway, I happened to catch a banter video this morning that gave me a laugh. Yeah, “a tendency to burn things” certainly characterizes the Antaam.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 3, 2019 23:51:14 GMT
That could be cool - a revamped Venatori. I just don't know if their reputation would be able to recover after Corypheus, even if they did have different goals/ideals. Calpernia would have incentive to revitalize the name possibly? or do you think they gotta burn the name and pick a new one? I mean, I personally think it's too far gone, but Calpernia might not think so if she ever shows up again and wants to start a movement. She did say, "The slaves of Tevinter will walk free in the light. I will see it done!" after all. 👀
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Post by nunziodefilippis on Jan 3, 2019 23:52:08 GMT
I certainly can't speak to Bioware's future plans for the Venatori. But to me, they're pretty evil, and it'd be hard to redeem the name into something better. Not saying Calpernia's evil - she's that perfect Dragon Age shade of grey. But the Venatori? I think of them as pretty bad.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 3, 2019 23:59:09 GMT
All joking aside, the Venatori are fairly unambiguously evil. Their goal of restoring Tevinter’s glory is somewhat understandable, but their methods are monstrous. Even Calpernia, who desired freedom for her fellow slaves, wasn’t above mass murder.
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Post by phoray on Jan 4, 2019 0:02:03 GMT
I guess where I'm sitting at is the Venatori existed before Cory. Troublemakers/Old God Cult that they are, they aren't presented as, say, "The Cult of Kosmos" in AC Odyssey. They are not at every level of society, controlling things for evil purposes, throughout Thedas. They have no presense in the south at all.
Until Cory takes their reins and points them into the direction of his version of evil. So that's one face of the Venatori. The other faces of the Venatori are Alexus and Calpernia, both very gray antagonists. And Alexus isn't so much into the "make Tevinter great again" as the "save your son from the Blight" thing. Otherwise, the Venatori are presented merely as the Henchmen of Coryphaeus, and are not in and of themselves evil. Most faceless mooks.
Promisers have a way worse presentation to me.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 4, 2019 0:03:36 GMT
You’re assuming the Venatori existed before Corypheus. They didn’t. The Venatori formed around their would-be darkspawn god. And they make an effort to incite chaos throughout Thedas.
They’re not as bad as darkspawn - nothing’s as bad as darkspawn - but they’re still evil.
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Post by phoray on Jan 4, 2019 0:07:41 GMT
You’re assuming the Venatori existed before Corypheus. They didn’t. The Venatori formed around their would-be darkspawn god. And they make an effort to incite chaos throughout Thedas. They’re not as bad as darkspawn - nothing’s as bad as darkspawn - but they’re still evil. I guess I got the feeling from the comic with Marius that they'd been around a while. They had people places very quickly if they'd just had their birth. I don't read codex, is there some codex that literally names Cory as the creator of the Venatori?
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 4, 2019 0:09:27 GMT
You’re assuming the Venatori existed before Corypheus. They didn’t. The Venatori formed around their would-be darkspawn god. And they make an effort to incite chaos throughout Thedas. They’re not as bad as darkspawn - nothing’s as bad as darkspawn - but they’re still evil. I think supremacist movements existed long before Cory - it's just that they coalesced into one group under his leadership.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 4, 2019 0:15:25 GMT
The Codex on the Venatori says, "The Venatori are hunters, recruited in secret over several years." That suggests their formation was fairly recent.
Also, I forced myself to look through Issue 2 of Magekiller, and after vomiting up the contents of my lunch, I can report back that I find no reference in the comic to the Venatori being an old faction in Tevinter. The fact that Radonis has to explain who they are to Blandman Marius suggests they're relatively new.
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Post by phoray on Jan 4, 2019 0:21:40 GMT
Fine, fine. Have your irredeemable faceless mooks. Life is now more boring.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jan 4, 2019 0:22:36 GMT
And Alexus isn't so much into the "make Tevinter great again" as the "save your son from the Blight" thing. It is basically outright stated at one point that Alexius was against the Venatori, isn't it? He only works for them when Felix gets blighted. (Still think Corypheus had something personally to do with that. Too coincidental.)
Disappointed by the MAGA=supremacy jibe there, I must say. Though, Dorian's for making Tevinter great again in a way I agree with, so I might use that phrase for him from now on. Just gotta work on his views on slavery and making ending it more of a priority.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 4, 2019 0:27:54 GMT
Easy with that political stuff. Given that DAI came out in 2014 and MAGA only really became a thing in 2015, I would say any comparisons you're drawing are purely coincidental.
(That said, when you look at the deluded fanatics in the #QAnon following, it becomes a lot more understandable how Corypheus, a friggin' darkspawn, could attract such a devoted following.)
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 4, 2019 0:35:07 GMT
I certainly can't speak to Bioware's future plans for the Venatori. But to me, they're pretty evil, and it'd be hard to redeem the name into something better. Not saying Calpernia's evil - she's that perfect Dragon Age shade of grey. But the Venatori? I think of them as pretty bad. Aw, thanks for chiming in! Always good to hear a writer's opinion, even if we did sort of veer off the topic of the thread. You’re assuming the Venatori existed before Corypheus. They didn’t. The Venatori formed around their would-be darkspawn god. And they make an effort to incite chaos throughout Thedas. This was my impression as well. Corypheus created the Venatori, but there were and are certainly Tevinter supremacists, Old God cultists, etc. all over the world, just under different names. Alexius was notable because he didn't join the Venatori out of an inflated sense of patriotism or w/e, he just wanted to save his kid and didn't care (or didn't notice....) that he might doom the world in the process.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jan 4, 2019 0:52:32 GMT
Easy with that political stuff. Given that DAI came out in 2014 and MAGA only really became a thing in 2015, I would say any comparisons you're drawing are purely coincidental.
(That said, when you look at the deluded fanatics in the #QAnon following, it becomes a lot more understandable how Corypheus, a friggin' darkspawn, could attract such a devoted following.) I just don't think MAGA is supremacy of any kind. Phoray was linking the two, so I stated my opinion as a counterpoint in a way I hoped would not also make a big thing out of it. Mission failed? lol
If this was in response to me saying I'd like to use the phrase for Dorian now, the lucerni do literally want to make Tevinter great again. Cus, to them, it sucks right now, but it has noble roots that they do want to bring back to the center of things. Their basic goal is remove corruption among the governing body (aka drain the Minrathous swamp), push reforms that will make Tevinter remember its best self and act accordingly(aka remember its greatness), and (I think?) get the magisterium's collective head out of its butt to properly defend the Imperium from the Qunari instead of infighting over the available funds and using them for meaningless pet projects. I think this last was pointed out as a problem happening in the Imperium in one of the comics? Though I might have gotten it from just talking to Dorian. Or codices? I don't entirely recall.
I don't intend the idea of MTGA being Dorian's slogan as an insult. Its a good thing. Culturally Tevinter has fallen a long way since before the blights, and its retained mostly the bad aspects of their height more than the good ones. Tevinter needs renewal.
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Post by ellehaym on Jan 4, 2019 1:32:28 GMT
I remember i Calpernia's short story the family that's responsible for the upkeep of Minrathous Juggernauts are using that money for themselves and that it's slowly falling into disrepair. So I can imagine other many things of Tevinter are in a state of disrepair. Assuming we go to Tevinter in the next game, I can see Minrathous falling or close to it.
I can also see Calpernia joining the Lucerni, but only anti-slavery is on the list on what they want to reform.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jan 4, 2019 1:46:24 GMT
I remember i Calpernia's short story the family that's responsible for the upkeep of Minrathous Juggernauts are using that money for themselves and that it's slowly falling into disrepair. So I can imagine other many things of Tevinter are in a state of disrepair. Assuming we go to Tevinter in the next game, I can see Minrathous falling or close to it. I can also see Calpernia joining the Lucerni, but only anti-slavery is on the list on what they want to reform. THAT''s what I was remembering. Thank you.
Calpernia and slavery is complicated, if I remember right. In her short story, I think she's not so much anti-slavery as anti-"slavery holding back people of merit". Like, if you aren't suited to much more than cleaning some altus' house, and that is what you are doing as a slave, she's fine with you staying that way. Like, for example, I don't think she'd have fought to free Orana. Its this interesting, but skewed perspective. Fenris is more the traditional "slavery bad" than Calpernia is. At least, in her short story. Whether she's still got that particular nuance to her stance by the time of DA4, assuming we even see her, I dunno. I hope she does. A slave who isn't entirely against all slavery is something we don't typically see in a story. I'd enjoy getting into fights with her. lol
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 4, 2019 1:53:49 GMT
I remember i Calpernia's short story the family that's responsible for the upkeep of Minrathous Juggernauts are using that money for themselves and that it's slowly falling into disrepair. So I can imagine other many things of Tevinter are in a state of disrepair. Assuming we go to Tevinter in the next game, I can see Minrathous falling or close to it. I can also see Calpernia joining the Lucerni, but only anti-slavery is on the list on what they want to reform. THAT''s what I was remembering. Thank you.
Calpernia and slavery is complicated, if I remember right. In her short story, I think she's not so much anti-slavery as anti-"slavery holding back people of merit". Like, if you aren't suited to much more than cleaning some altus' house, and that is what you are doing as a slave, she's fine with you staying that way. Like, for example, I don't think she'd have fought to free Orana. Its this interesting, but skewed perspective. Fenris is more the traditional "slavery bad" than Calpernia is. At least, in her short story. Whether she's still got that particular nuance to her stance by the time of DA4, assuming we even see her, I dunno. I hope she does. A slave who isn't entirely against all slavery is something we don't typically see in a story. I'd enjoy getting into fights with her. lol
She certainly wasn’t against slavery in the Hissing Wastes. Plus Corypheus pretty much enslaved all his forces like the Wardens, Templars, and Mages via various ways.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 4, 2019 2:18:22 GMT
I remember i Calpernia's short story the family that's responsible for the upkeep of Minrathous Juggernauts are using that money for themselves and that it's slowly falling into disrepair. So I can imagine other many things of Tevinter are in a state of disrepair. Assuming we go to Tevinter in the next game, I can see Minrathous falling or close to it. I can also see Calpernia joining the Lucerni, but only anti-slavery is on the list on what they want to reform. THAT''s what I was remembering. Thank you. Calpernia and slavery is complicated, if I remember right. In her short story, I think she's not so much anti-slavery as anti-"slavery holding back people of merit". Like, if you aren't suited to much more than cleaning some altus' house, and that is what you are doing as a slave, she's fine with you staying that way. Like, for example, I don't think she'd have fought to free Orana. Its this interesting, but skewed perspective. Fenris is more the traditional "slavery bad" than Calpernia is. At least, in her short story. Whether she's still got that particular nuance to her stance by the time of DA4, assuming we even see her, I dunno. I hope she does. A slave who isn't entirely against all slavery is something we don't typically see in a story. I'd enjoy getting into fights with her. lol
I remember she had a line, "When a person's life was spent, it meant something - it bought something. If slaves had a voice the Archon could hear..." And part of her anger at Anodatus was that he was so condescending and dismissive towards her (because of her background), despite her accomplishments and magical prowess far exceeding his own, so I think there's an element of merit in there for sure. Like, "I proved that I belong here, I earned this, and other slaves deserve the opportunity to earn it too." 😎👌
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 4, 2019 12:18:56 GMT
That could be cool - a revamped Venatori. I just don't know if their reputation would be able to recover after Corypheus, even if they did have different goals/ideals. Calpernia would have incentive to revitalize the name possibly? or do you think they gotta burn the name and pick a new one? One of the things I found odd about the continued importance of the Venatori as bad guys after DAI was that I thought their whole reason for existing was Corypheus, the Elder One. They were his organisation and he was their leader. They were essentially supporting a living god who would restore Tevinter to supremacy. So when that god is proven both fallible and killable, it does rather destroy your reason for existing. Now I can see surviving members of the organisation reforming under a different name, still having the goal of restoring Tevinter to glory, but to my mind the name Venatori is now associated with failure and why would anyone want to buy into that? To be honest I also found the size and spread of the organisation both within and outside Tevinter somewhat hard to accept considering they had only come into existence so recently. They had agents and influence everywhere, which is actually hard to imagine when the majority of their original members would have come from inside Tevinter, so were people that the rest of Thedas would naturally be suspicious of; just listen to the initial reaction to Dorian. But then I suppose you could say the same about Inquisition, except at least there you had the excuse that the rise to power was because they were the only people doing something about the chaos and so naturally people would want to support them. However, look at the Inquisition's fall from grace and they had been a success. This is why I feel that even if there were more tacit supporters of the Venatori among the elite of Tevinter than were readily apparent, once the organisation failed on every front, those supporters would naturally look elsewhere. Let's have a nice Old God cult that is faithful to one of the two that still hasn't risen as an arch-demon. Now Razikale is the original patron of Minrathous and whilst she has been a bit on the quiet side for the last thousand years, the city still hasn't fallen to any enemy army during that time, so it would be easy enough to argue that she had been successfully protecting them throughout. That would be the basis for an enduring Old God cult, who could then argue what they might achieve if people only turned back to her worship. As Dragon of Mystery may be she did just want them to solve the mystery of to make contact again to prove worthy of her renewed assistance. That seems a much easier sell to me than "join us, we followed an ancient Magister who brought the Blights, thought he could conquer the world, and failed."
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 4, 2019 14:46:28 GMT
That could be cool - a revamped Venatori. I just don't know if their reputation would be able to recover after Corypheus, even if they did have different goals/ideals. Calpernia would have incentive to revitalize the name possibly? or do you think they gotta burn the name and pick a new one? One of the things I found odd about the continued importance of the Venatori as bad guys after DAI was that I thought their whole reason for existing was Corypheus, the Elder One. They were his organisation and he was their leader. They were essentially supporting a living god who would restore Tevinter to supremacy. So when that god is proven both fallible and killable, it does rather destroy your reason for existing. Now I can see surviving members of the organisation reforming under a different name, still having the goal of restoring Tevinter to glory, but to my mind the name Venatori is now associated with failure and why would anyone want to buy into that? Well, we do know that Venatori still exist years after Corypheus' defeat, because they can capture Dorian and Iron Bull with his Chargers come to his rescue. Also - maybe they were a failure, but what a spectacular failure that was. They were very close to conquering the South basically on their own and access to Corypheus has also resulted in access to powerful magic and artifacts, deadly as they can be (red lyrium). Corypheus didn't just pop into Tevinter and began whispering about making it great again to find those few willing to listen - he was so successful because many among Vints (especially the upper class) were ripe for the picking. Even Dorian claims that to those who aren't Venatori the idea of re-invigorated Tevinter Imperium is attractive and they'll silently be happy about the South falling to Cory, even if they officially don't support him. Many powerful and influential Vint noble houses have opened their coffers to him, just like Southern nobles have opened it for Inquisition, so the fact that they have power and agents everywhere is the least surprising thing ever. Money and influence tend to do that - it's depressing how easily some people can be bought, but it happens. Plus, find a few who can effectively lie about their cause (Livius Erimond) or are desperate (Alexius, Southern Mages, Templars, Wardens) and you got yourself a large army of goons.
Venatori can easily re-align their devotion to Old Gods, given that Corypheus was a priest of one. And most of the stuff with Corypheus has happened in the South, while Tevinter was getting busier with increased Qunari attacks - it'd not be hard to obscure or twist details about his actual intentions.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 4, 2019 20:07:04 GMT
Corypheus didn't just pop into Tevinter and began whispering about making it great again to find those few willing to listen - he was so successful because many among Vints (especially the upper class) were ripe for the picking. Even Dorian claims that to those who aren't Venatori the idea of re-invigorated Tevinter Imperium is attractive and they'll silently be happy about the South falling to Cory, even if they officially don't support him. Many powerful and influential Vint noble houses have opened their coffers to him, Most of those people still inside Tevinter were targeted by the Archon. That was the whole point of the initial part of Magekiller. He employed them to quietly kill off people on his list and he knew who they were. Actually, whilst there were some powerful people in favour of it, probably a lot were like the Archon. They might be happy to see the south fall but they wanted to be at the top of the pecking order. Having a living god who favoured other people, lesser than yourself, as his trusted lieutenants would not fit with that. The Venatori were officially denounced. Alexius was made a public example of. Erimond, who had always been recognised as having a rather inflated view of himself was also disgraced. Calpernia was a former slave. Then one by one the various schemes of Corypheus failed. Finally his army was destroyed in the Arbor Wilds. Why would anyone of importance in Tevinter still want to associate themselves with this? This is why I say that the ideal might still be there but the name itself would be poison. Venatori can easily re-align their devotion to Old Gods, given that Corypheus was a priest of one. His main thrust was that there were no other gods. Venerate the Elder One. Corypheus was priest of Dumat, a god generally having been acknowledge to be responsible for the 1st Blight and had clearly lost faith in him. You don't claim the mantel of godhood yourself if your god is still knocking around. Anyone who still had faith in the Old Gods would regard him as a heretic upstart and those who put their faith in him fools, which turned out to be true. So again, trying to win over people by saying you now believe in the Old Gods, having previously rejected them, is not going to be very convincing.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 4, 2019 20:28:18 GMT
Corypheus didn't just pop into Tevinter and began whispering about making it great again to find those few willing to listen - he was so successful because many among Vints (especially the upper class) were ripe for the picking. Even Dorian claims that to those who aren't Venatori the idea of re-invigorated Tevinter Imperium is attractive and they'll silently be happy about the South falling to Cory, even if they officially don't support him. Many powerful and influential Vint noble houses have opened their coffers to him, Most of those people still inside Tevinter were targeted by the Archon. That was the whole point of the initial part of Magekiller. He employed them to quietly kill off people on his list and he knew who they were. Actually, whilst there were some powerful people in favour of it, probably a lot were like the Archon. They might be happy to see the south fall but they wanted to be at the top of the pecking order. Having a living god who favoured other people, lesser than yourself, as his trusted lieutenants would not fit with that. We don't know how many people the Archon has managed to target aside from those he has evidence or suspects to be Venatori. That in itself should be worrisome. If enough nobles would support a supremacist agenda than those he managed to off (and we have evidence that there were way more than those few targeted) it means that Archon is in big trouble because he wouldn't even have to be killed in order to be removed. Well, unless it turns out that Tevinter having their eyes on both South and impending Qunarti invasion has managed the supremacists to hollow out the Magisterium from their enemies and ultimately gain power. History is written by the victors and it wouldn't be the first time when a group that was technically denounced or was served major whopping came roaring back. Not saying that it will happen, but it is possible. Yet look how many followers in Tevinter he's found while being both a heretic, an upstart and a darn ugly monstrosity, way before he's shown everyone the true extent of his power. Nevermind that if the Venatori have found the details inconvenient they'd just twist the truth or obscure truth. Just look at Inquisition - how many things and tales people have spun that weren't true? And that happened around Inquisition; in a region it was active. Tevinter, on the other hand, was far away and looked at Corypheus' deeds from the distance. The Venatori might as well claim that those saying that the Elder One wanted to replace gods is just cheap Southern propaganda.
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