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Post by amehzing on Sept 7, 2018 2:29:26 GMT
(Specifically, Ryder as I hope for MEA2 but I don’t at all expect that to ever happen)
I think main characters should be strong. As should their relationships with other characters, and they way they grow around the story and with how they influence the story
Problem is, characters who can be any race aren’t. They feel like there’s nothing to them. Everyone is vague in how they treat them (because other than some one liners, important things can’t change. So you don’t get Shepard-Garrus or Hawke-Varric types of friendships). The story hardly includes them because they can’t write a strong story that could have 10+ different leads. And the character themselves...ME races are so unique from one another. Writing a character who fits every single mold would make for among the weakest of heroes.
So sticking with a human story is their best bet by far.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 7, 2018 2:55:43 GMT
(Specifically, Ryder as I hope for MEA2 but I don’t at all expect that to ever happen) I think main characters should be strong. As should their relationships with other characters, and they way they grow around the story and with how they influence the story Problem is, characters who can be any race aren’t. They feel like there’s nothing to them. Everyone is vague in how they treat them (because other than some one liners, important things can’t change. So you don’t get Shepard-Garrus or Hawke-Varric types of friendships). The story hardly includes them because they can’t write a strong story that could have 10+ different leads. And the character themselves...ME races are so unique from one another. Writing a character who fits every single mold would make for among the weakest of heroes. So sticking with a human story is their best bet by far. Other than also wanting Ryder I disagree with the main point of your post. I think playing as any race has potential to great.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 7, 2018 3:07:49 GMT
(Specifically, Ryder as I hope for MEA2 but I don’t at all expect that to ever happen) I think main characters should be strong. As should their relationships with other characters, and they way they grow around the story and with how they influence the story Problem is, characters who can be any race aren’t. They feel like there’s nothing to them. Everyone is vague in how they treat them (because other than some one liners, important things can’t change. So you don’t get Shepard-Garrus or Hawke-Varric types of friendships). The story hardly includes them because they can’t write a strong story that could have 10+ different leads. And the character themselves...ME races are so unique from one another. Writing a character who fits every single mold would make for among the weakest of heroes. So sticking with a human story is their best bet by far. While I agree with wanting Ryder back in MEA2 since their story isn't finished yet, I disagree with the rest of the post. I see no reason why having the option to play as an alien race doesn't allow these kinds of things. After all we have seen them do it in the past with protagonists like the various ones in SWTOR or the Warden or the Inquisitor, the last being my favorite Bioware protagonist so far. We see that there are individuals of any race that can have any personality so would fit the mold of the protagonist. Also if they did add it as an option I doubt it would be 10+ characters. At most they would have the Council races and maybe the Quarians as options. As for the relationships being left more vague, I disagree with that but also quite frankly part of me welcomes that. I'd much rather have a relationship more open to interpretation or variable than having them force a certain kind on you. I didn't want Hawke to be best friends with Varric because I don't like Varric, and I don't want to always have to be "no Shepard without Vakarian" and all that stuff. It is a role-playing game that allows us to have choices on our relationships, so let us always have choices for those relationships.
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Post by amehzing on Sept 7, 2018 3:14:47 GMT
But the Warden, inquisitor, and (well any Star Wars protagonists honestly)
Don’t have any features that make for a strong character. There’s nothing really to them. Nothing defines any of those characters.
I like Thedas, and the companions I’m dragon age, but main characters are their biggest weakness consistently
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Post by cloud9 on Sept 7, 2018 3:54:46 GMT
(Specifically, Ryder as I hope for MEA2 but I don’t at all expect that to ever happen) I think main characters should be strong. As should their relationships with other characters, and they way they grow around the story and with how they influence the story Problem is, characters who can be any race aren’t. They feel like there’s nothing to them. Everyone is vague in how they treat them (because other than some one liners, important things can’t change. So you don’t get Shepard-Garrus or Hawke-Varric types of friendships). The story hardly includes them because they can’t write a strong story that could have 10+ different leads. And the character themselves...ME races are so unique from one another. Writing a character who fits every single mold would make for among the weakest of heroes. So sticking with a human story is their best bet by far.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 7, 2018 4:03:05 GMT
But the Warden, inquisitor, and (well any Star Wars protagonists honestly) Don’t have any features that make for a strong character. There’s nothing really to them. Nothing defines any of those characters. I like Thedas, and the companions I’m dragon age, but main characters are their biggest weakness consistently What do you consider features that makes one a strong character? I disagree entirely that there is nothing that defines them or nothing to them.
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 7, 2018 6:10:57 GMT
I agree, after playing Dragon Age: Inquisition I don't think I would play anything than a human even if I had the choice for other races. The story is almost identical and the world doesn't treat you and differently. Combine that with how I would expect it would impact other areas of the game such as the additional animations required to make sure that all the difference races and gender combinations add up to prevent another Andromeda I could see the story of the game taking a hit as well due to less animations for unique dialogue. A while back I think it was BioWare that stated and I could be wrong that there would be more animations required for difference races as well in general for the protagonist had more animations then the other characters and thinking back in cutscenes in Inquisition the protagonist just stood there during conversations.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 7, 2018 7:05:38 GMT
I agree, after playing Dragon Age: Inquisition I don't think I would play anything than a human even if I had the choice for other races. The story is almost identical and the world doesn't treat you and differently. Combine that with how I would expect it would impact other areas of the game such as the additional animations required to make sure that all the difference races and gender combinations add up to prevent another Andromeda I could see the story of the game taking a hit as well due to less animations for unique dialogue. A while back I think it was BioWare that stated and I could be wrong that there would be more animations required for difference races as well in general for the protagonist had more animations then the other characters and thinking back in cutscenes in Inquisition the protagonist just stood there during conversations. Yep. Are we really supposed to believe that an elf of a quinari could get a following of mostly humans? I doubt it. The dialogue is nearly identical. There are a few things tailored to an elf, like some conversations with Solas and Sera. Never played quinari but I can imagine clashes between he/she and Dorian. Don't know about the dwarf, either, but it would probably come into play when heading underground. Thing is, this is all minor stuff. It doesn't in any way affect the overall storyline. And I don't even want to think about how Trespasser should have worked out for the quinari Inquisitor but probably didn't - since the story would have to be generic to fit all races.
I prefer the human protagonist that can have minor background differences, like Shepard. (Less so with Ryder but I think the twin thing lessened how much they could diverge.)
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 7, 2018 7:48:59 GMT
Alternate races are best left to multiplayer, since that’s the only place they’ll ever get meaningful differences between each other. An alien protagonist in a Mass Effect game has as good a chance as a rabbit in a weasel pit.
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Post by isaidlunch on Sept 7, 2018 8:00:36 GMT
I'm conflicted because I find playing as non-humans interesting, but I agree that race choice isn't acknowledged enough to be really worth it. DAI made me feel like I was either playing a tall human, a normal human, a skinny human or a short human. The Solas romance was a nice exception, but doesn't make up for the rest of the game ("Who is Mythal?").
I wish Bioware would experiment with protagonists that are forced to be a non-human race. I'd love for DA4's protagonist to be an elf or to play a ME game as a turian.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 7, 2018 11:33:30 GMT
I have no problem playing as a human. Why would I want to play as another species? Humans are special. We're the best at everything. Its only right that a human plays the lead in an ME game. Humanity #1
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Post by TabithaTH on Sept 7, 2018 17:34:08 GMT
If I was playing DA I would be very disappointed if I didn’t get to pick my race. However, the setting of ME makes me prefer only humans as an option. Even if the races of Thedas aren’t 100% identical to every other fantasy setting, it’s still close enough that I feel i already know what the other races are like.
In ME, I like that It feels like I am discovering a new world alongside my character. Sure, my character would potentially already know many of these things, but it still makes it feel more like I am experiencing the same reactions my character would.
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Post by copper on Sept 7, 2018 18:19:28 GMT
I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure human only makes for a strong character necessarily. Shepard is a pretty blank slate, and only as interesting as you make them. In that regard they're the same as the warden or inquisitor. Hawke I'll give you, as the personality system in that game was pretty cool (imo). Would there be anything preventing writers from implementing such a system with a non human protagonist?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 7, 2018 18:54:46 GMT
If I was playing DA I would be very disappointed if I didn’t get to pick my race. However, the setting of ME makes me prefer only humans as an option. Even if the races of Thedas aren’t 100% identical to every other fantasy setting, it’s still close enough that I feel i already know what the other races are like. In ME, I like that It feels like I am discovering a new world alongside my character. Sure, my character would potentially already know many of these things, but it still makes it feel more like I am experiencing the same reactions my character would. With being in Andromeda though, the character would be discovering a new world regardless of what race they are since it is equally new for all the Milky Way races.
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 7, 2018 20:33:19 GMT
If I was playing DA I would be very disappointed if I didn’t get to pick my race. However, the setting of ME makes me prefer only humans as an option. Even if the races of Thedas aren’t 100% identical to every other fantasy setting, it’s still close enough that I feel i already know what the other races are like. In ME, I like that It feels like I am discovering a new world alongside my character. Sure, my character would potentially already know many of these things, but it still makes it feel more like I am experiencing the same reactions my character would. Pretty sure if they copied the DA:I model it would be "short squat human", "average skinny human", "average human", and "tall muscular human". Okay I kid, but there is one major difference between DA:I and Mass Effect when it comes to the different species is some of them are drastically different they cannot just alter the size of the skeletal animation and the body types to fit, for a Quarian or Krogan look a lot more different from a human then a Dwarf or Qunari.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 8, 2018 3:58:43 GMT
I'm conflicted because I find playing as non-humans interesting, but I agree that race choice isn't acknowledged enough to be really worth it. DAI made me feel like I was either playing a tall human, a normal human, a skinny human or a short human. The Solas romance was a nice exception, but doesn't make up for the rest of the game ("Who is Mythal?"). I wish Bioware would experiment with protagonists that are forced to be a non-human race. I'd love for DA4's protagonist to be an elf or to play a ME game as a turian. I can see a forced race thing backfiring badly, especially for Mass Effect. I can honestly say that my enthusiasm to go through an entire campaign as a turian would be especially hard won, especially since customization kind of goes out the window when it’s just armor on a bird.
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Post by emissaryoflies on Sept 8, 2018 4:03:10 GMT
It would certainly be safer for them to keep a human protagonist. I just hope it's not Ryder.
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Post by amehzing on Sept 8, 2018 5:46:17 GMT
But the Warden, inquisitor, and (well any Star Wars protagonists honestly) Don’t have any features that make for a strong character. There’s nothing really to them. Nothing defines any of those characters. I like Thedas, and the companions I’m dragon age, but main characters are their biggest weakness consistently What do you consider features that makes one a strong character? I disagree entirely that there is nothing that defines them or nothing to them. Specifics are when opinions get involved But to be a strong character they need A personality: Shepard has one. You have control of him, but he has a baseline thst can’t be betrayed or deviated from. Brilliant military soldier, natural leader, sarcastic at times because he can be because who can question/stop him. Those situations happen regardless of alignment. You can’t really have a strong character without those things (and a weak main character in almost every case will cause a story to suffer and be less structured.) Relationships:Shepard and Garrus have a define relationship. You can make them LI’s and change it but either way they aren’t very close and mean way more to each other than most people end up meaning to...Anyone (initially Garrus wasn’t an LI. Multiple times Bioware stated that was added for fan demand) If you can be any species, people treat you differently. It’s vague. It isn’t structured. Because they need to be treating let’s say 8 (M/F variant of the 5 major species, assuming Male only for Salarian soldiers in-lore) different characters in the same way And other things like the story and character growing around one another. A character that has 8 completely different...characters...can’t really have the structure to grow around them. And the character won’t have a chance to to grow around the stories because they have absolutely no room for growth
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 8, 2018 5:58:50 GMT
Ah, okay. In that case I want my characters to be as weak as possible since I do not want a super predefined character like that. I disagree completely that it means it will harm the story. This is why I'd prefer to return to an ME1 style talent tree (was a bit too extreme in MEA since you could create a god after one NG+). ME1 was set up so that you had to pick and choose your strengths and weaknesses. I found this far superior to what we had in ME2 and ME3.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 8, 2018 6:03:14 GMT
What do you consider features that makes one a strong character? I disagree entirely that there is nothing that defines them or nothing to them. Specifics are when opinions get involved But to be a strong character they need A personality: Shepard has one. You have control of him, but he has a baseline thst can’t be betrayed or deviated from. Brilliant military soldier, natural leader, sarcastic at times because he can be because who can question/stop him. Those situations happen regardless of alignment. You can’t really have a strong character without those things (and a weak main character in almost every case will cause a story to suffer and be less structured.) Relationships:Shepard and Garrus have a define relationship. You can make them LI’s and change it but either way they aren’t very close and mean way more to each other than most people end up meaning to...Anyone (initially Garrus wasn’t an LI. Multiple times Bioware stated that was added for fan demand) If you can be any species, people treat you differently. It’s vague. It isn’t structured. Because they need to be treating let’s say 8 (M/F variant of the 5 major species, assuming Male only for Salarian soldiers in-lore) different characters in the same way And other things like the story and character growing around one another. A character that has 8 completely different...characters...can’t really have the structure to grow around them. And the character won’t have a chance to to grow around the stories because they have absolutely no room for growth If having your character be super predefined is the traits needed for a strong character, then I hope they make the characters as weak as possible because I do not want to have my character be that set in stone. Our character should be exactly that, ours. Otherwise why even play a roleplaying game? I also disagree that having a fluid character harms the game. That is the purpose of a roleplaying game, to have the characters and world react and change depending on what choices you make. Besides, you argue that the Warden was weak and Hawke was strong and the majority of people will say they much preferred the Warden and the story and game of DAO than Hawke and DA2, thus going against your argument. Also, while there would be some differences sure, as there should be, I don't think there would be enough to harm the game due to one single reason: everyone who came to Andromeda is in the same boat, figuratively and literally, so it's not like the Milky Way where there is a racial hierarchy.
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Post by amehzing on Sept 8, 2018 7:43:38 GMT
I didn’t say super predefined. My example was Shepard. He has a set personality but you still have a lot of control of the application of that. But it’s also enough of a personality that a story works.
If Shepard could be any species, the story wouldn’t and couldn’t work. Neither could almost any of his relationships.
You’re arguing that it makes for a good rpg game. I didn’t say that having an undefined blank character makes an objectively bad rpg game. Just that it doesn’t make for the strongest of characters or stories
It’s literally a blank character and that’s the point. In no way is that a strong character. It’s intentionally the opposite. But with where Bioware is right now, with ME especially, they should focus on strong characters and strong relationships. Not blank slates which is their most likely direction
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Post by guanxi on Sept 8, 2018 11:22:00 GMT
Ryder was far from a strong, well defined protagonist the kind of hero I would hope for and his/her race had nothing to do with the quality of the character writing and relationship dialogue, etc. I appreciate that they were writen as a young naive hero thrust into a leadership role but the character development / arc you are expecting never materializes - they are the same supercilious jackass at the end of it leaning absolutely nothing except how to become even more obnoxious.
We’ve had playable alien species in multiplayer for years and that’s where they belong for the most part. It’s the unique gameplay beyond human abilities that has endless appeal to me. You can’t role play an alien because you aren’t one this is not like Tolkien/medieval fantasy where the different species are basically humans in costumes.
What DAI does well is letting you assume control of squadmates during combat which I would appreciate as a fan of multiplayer being able to switch classes and switch up combat drastically from say Krogan warlord to Asari Commando at the press of a button which would offer much more combat variety than even the current system - it would be like the current system on steroids.
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Post by natetrace on Sept 8, 2018 11:30:43 GMT
I hope they let us pick between human, Turian, asari or a new species that has four arms and let's us use four guns at once like Max in MDK2. Yeah!
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 8, 2018 13:52:01 GMT
Ryder was far from a strong, well defined protagonist the kind of hero I would hope for and his/her race had nothing to do with the quality of the character writing and relationship dialogue, etc. I appreciate that they were writen as a young naive hero thrust into a leadership role but the character development / arc you are expecting never materializes - they are the same supercilious jackass at the end of it leaning absolutely nothing except how to become even more obnoxious. We’ve had playable alien species in multiplayer for years and that’s where they belong for the most part. It’s the unique gameplay beyond human abilities that has endless appeal to me. You can’t role play an alien because you aren’t one this is not like Tolkien/medieval fantasy where the different species are basically humans in costumes. What DAI does well is letting you assume control of squadmates during combat which I would appreciate as a fan of multiplayer being able to switch classes and switch up combat drastically from say Krogan warlord to Asari Commando at the press of a button which would offer much more combat variety than even the current system - it would be like the current system on steroids. I disagree. Ryder grew as a character and became a strong leader in the end.
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Post by amehzing on Sept 8, 2018 20:30:42 GMT
Ryder was far from a strong, well defined protagonist the kind of hero I would hope for and his/her race had nothing to do with the quality of the character writing and relationship dialogue, etc. I appreciate that they were writen as a young naive hero thrust into a leadership role but the character development / arc you are expecting never materializes - they are the same supercilious jackass at the end of it leaning absolutely nothing except how to become even more obnoxious. We’ve had playable alien species in multiplayer for years and that’s where they belong for the most part. It’s the unique gameplay beyond human abilities that has endless appeal to me. You can’t role play an alien because you aren’t one this is not like Tolkien/medieval fantasy where the different species are basically humans in costumes. What DAI does well is letting you assume control of squadmates during combat which I would appreciate as a fan of multiplayer being able to switch classes and switch up combat drastically from say Krogan warlord to Asari Commando at the press of a button which would offer much more combat variety than even the current system - it would be like the current system on steroids. I disagree. Ryder grew as a character and became a strong leader in the end. Part of the problem with Andromeda is it feels like a prequel Ryder becomes a good leader at the end. We are introduced to the main villain in the end (Archon was a screw up by Kett standards, he wasn’t the one we should fear) We discover Jardaan at the end We discover our home It feels like a prequel to a game that has Kett doing (something scary), and Ryder finding Jardaan to save meridian And prequels don’t do well for that very reason (books tend to) but prequel games are almost never exciting and well received
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