inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,572
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Sept 25, 2018 23:34:48 GMT
That's... that's it. That's my whole opinion. 👀
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 20, 2024 10:24:31 GMT
30,241
Hanako Ikezawa
22,352
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 26, 2018 0:13:24 GMT
Walter Black Back at it with the ad hominems, eh? What kind of examples would you like. I’ve given some before but maybe you didn’t see them. I can only go by what I've read, so no I did not see them. Over the years you have displayed a pattern of opposing redemption for various villains and antiheroes, even characters who show the potential and desire to do so. It's one thing to hold said opinions on such characters yourself, but I do not recall you ever expressing the creativity or desire to roleplay the kind of PC who could help redeem dark characters. And no, I do not consider being fascinated with an anithero/villain's storyline (as you claimed with Solas) the same as thinking they deserve the chance to change.
So who specifically then, throughout your playthroughs have your characters worked to help redeem? Just what about them made worthy in your eyes, where other such characters were not? Just to be clear, people whose redemption arcs you actually enjoyed, as opposed to simply checking out content? Most importantly, people who weren't simply Jerks with Hearts of Gold, but genuinely dark, messed up, and/or evil?
Okay. Well, in Origins I guess the only companions who would fit that would be Sten and Loghain. Of those two, Loghain absolutely not. I would probably say I enjoyed Sten's redemption, which is interesting since his big crime is the same as Blackwall's whom I don't. My guess is the difference lies in two reasons. The first being their motive. Blackwall did it for greed so it was premeditated whereas Sten was more like a moment of momentary insanity so wasn't. The second and far more important difference is what they did after they committed the crime. Blackwall ran away and let his men take the fall for what he led them to do, hiding for years before finally fessing up to it. Meanwhile Sten never tried to run away, literally standing at the crime scene waiting for the guards to arrive and then willing to accept any punishment they gave him without resistance. I have to respect that, and it made him seem more genuinely sorry for what he did. For Awakening I guess the only character that this would fit is Veranna, whom I also while maybe not liking her much enjoyed how she was willing to atone for the people she killed and hurt, even though she thought it was justified. And she does it on both sides, both to the humans and the rest of her clan and accepts that they may not forgive her and will bear that. On to Dragon Age 2, I suppose the only characters that this would fit for is Anders and Isabela. With Anders it is a weird situation because one path of his redemption is he is willing to be killed for what he did right after he did it, so was more like Sten than Blackwall or Loghain. So with that in mind, I have to at least respect him for that and enjoyed helping him do it. As for Isabela, sort of like Veranna I do respect and support how she is willing to redeem herself, though with Isabela only is she is friendly enough towards you. She could get away, but she decides to risk everything to come back and do the right thing. I'm not going to count what we learn about her in the comics, like her being party in murdering a ship full of slaves in order to get away since my Hawke doesn't know that and I as a player aren't able to do anything about that one way or another. Finally for Inquisition, the only character that would fit is I guess Blackwall and I addressed him above. Well and Solas but that stuff hasn't happened yet however as of what we know now it will be no since well he is literally planning on committing genocide and is already responsible for everything that happened in Inquisition. Does that answer your questions at least a bit? Did I forget anybody? I was sticking to just companions this time so that's why I didn't talk about NPCs.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 20, 2024 10:24:31 GMT
30,241
Hanako Ikezawa
22,352
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 26, 2018 0:16:00 GMT
You just undid your entire premise; if anyone can be a radical revolutionary, then Calpernia herself is irrelevant.
The Difference is that we already know her. But my point is still valid. It doesn´t matter if Bioware had Calpernia designed as elven male in DAI. But she is a female human mage. Maevaris is also a female human mage but biological she is/was a male. It would not be same as Calpernia. She already exists in the Series. New Ones need their time to be established in the Game.
Calpernia also need that but why should Bioware waste all existing Material about Calpernia? Also don´t forget Bioware like Calpernia. "According to Patrick Weekes, Calpernia quickly became a favorite of the writers due to her intriguing story and personality." Every Character has the potential to be interessing or bland. I would argue that two dwarven Companions from the Amgarrak DLC are most dull Companions
in the Series. But they are Dwarves they have to be awesome. You miss one very important Detail that defines Calpernia.
She was a former Slave. Maevaris came from a rich family like Dorian. I would argue that Doran and Maevaris have a lot more in common than Mae and Calpernia.
We as a player know her perhaps, and even them really only a minority of players will. However unless we continue as the Inquisitor, the protagonist will not so she would be no different than any new character. And there have been many players who complained how the devs act like everyone knows returning characters so if they heed those complaints they'd have to treat Calpernia like she is a new character.
|
|
inherit
1587
0
Apr 17, 2024 22:13:56 GMT
1,671
Walter Black
1,253
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
|
Post by Walter Black on Sept 26, 2018 22:33:58 GMT
I can only go by what I've read, so no I did not see them. Over the years you have displayed a pattern of opposing redemption for various villains and antiheroes, even characters who show the potential and desire to do so. It's one thing to hold said opinions on such characters yourself, but I do not recall you ever expressing the creativity or desire to roleplay the kind of PC who could help redeem dark characters. And no, I do not consider being fascinated with an anithero/villain's storyline (as you claimed with Solas) the same as thinking they deserve the chance to change.
So who specifically then, throughout your playthroughs have your characters worked to help redeem? Just what about them made worthy in your eyes, where other such characters were not? Just to be clear, people whose redemption arcs you actually enjoyed, as opposed to simply checking out content? Most importantly, people who weren't simply Jerks with Hearts of Gold, but genuinely dark, messed up, and/or evil?
Okay. Well, in Origins I guess the only companions who would fit that would be Sten and Loghain. Of those two, Loghain absolutely not. I would probably say I enjoyed Sten's redemption, which is interesting since his big crime is the same as Blackwall's whom I don't. My guess is the difference lies in two reasons. The first being their motive. Blackwall did it for greed so it was premeditated whereas Sten was more like a moment of momentary insanity so wasn't. The second and far more important difference is what they did after they committed the crime. Blackwall ran away and let his men take the fall for what he led them to do, hiding for years before finally fessing up to it. Meanwhile Sten never tried to run away, literally standing at the crime scene waiting for the guards to arrive and then willing to accept any punishment they gave him without resistance. I have to respect that, and it made him seem more genuinely sorry for what he did. Fair enough. Thank you for your response.
Sten is an interesting case; aside from the stress of being on a highly important mission in a foreign land, not to mention the horror of encountering darkspawn for the first time, I see Sten's psychotic break as a logical side effect of the Qun's brainwashing. Through no fault of his own, Sten losing his sword and men means he also lost his honor, his purpose, his very soul. Since the Qunari enforce such rigid roles with nothing else to fall back on, he's helpless, and little better than tal-vashoth. Not to mention how the writers keep toying with idea that kossith are all latent Reavers on a genetic level, and that maybe they really do need extreme discipline to keep their greater aggression in check. Maybe Iron Bull was so laid back because he was more at peace with his inner Reaver?
On the other hand, since Sten chose to accept punishment for his crimes, we were not there to witness or help influence his decisions one way or the other. We can offer an alternative atonement, but he still already acknowledges his guilt. There was no change from villain to anti-hero or hero, no character growth.
Hate to be a Grammar Nazi, but Velana was Awakenings' possible Dalish Companion, while Varania was Fenris' estranged sister . Whether you view it as judgement or mercy killing, executing Anders does not allow him to atone or develop in any meaningful way. Quite the opposite, since he fully expected to be martyred. Isabella also comes back if you locked in Rivalry. Too many people forget that Friendship/Rivalry isn't just being nice or mean to them. Rivalling a Companion in Dragon Age 2 can challenge them to become better people, just as Friendship can enable their worst behaviors.
I chalk that one up to David Gaider being addicted to drama for the sake of drama. Like Isabella didn't have enough already ... I find it interesting that you accept Sten surrendering to Lothering's authorities was the start of his redemption, but deny the same possibility for Thom Rainier when he turned himself in. Almost as if you were just as offended at having to rethink everything you thought about him as much as his in game actions. Solas claims to be planning genocide, but his ultimate endgame could be a False Flag Operation and/or Zero Approval Gambit for all we know. At least, I hope so, as the Dread Wolf monologueing his true plans to one of the few people who can stop him would be really stupid writing. As for the Breach and everything after, Solas had no reason to expect Corypheus to survive his orb's initial unlocking. Not saying he doesn't bear some of the responsibility, just that there's things like context and the Law of Unintended Consequences to consider. Well off the top of my head, I'm curious why generally prefer Iron Bull not escaping the Qun, as despite him and the Chargers being mercenaries, they stuck up for the little guy. While I agree that when you first meet her Jack is a psychopath, you dismiss the fact that she had been used and abused her whole life, with no one until Shepard to even try teaching her basic empathy and morality. Sure, by then Jack is an adult and responsible for own actions, but I dislike the notion that some people are too broken to even try to save. There are probably others, but that's all for now.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 20, 2024 10:24:31 GMT
30,241
Hanako Ikezawa
22,352
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 26, 2018 22:47:39 GMT
Okay. Well, in Origins I guess the only companions who would fit that would be Sten and Loghain. Of those two, Loghain absolutely not. I would probably say I enjoyed Sten's redemption, which is interesting since his big crime is the same as Blackwall's whom I don't. My guess is the difference lies in two reasons. The first being their motive. Blackwall did it for greed so it was premeditated whereas Sten was more like a moment of momentary insanity so wasn't. The second and far more important difference is what they did after they committed the crime. Blackwall ran away and let his men take the fall for what he led them to do, hiding for years before finally fessing up to it. Meanwhile Sten never tried to run away, literally standing at the crime scene waiting for the guards to arrive and then willing to accept any punishment they gave him without resistance. I have to respect that, and it made him seem more genuinely sorry for what he did. Fair enough. Thank you for your response.
Sten is an interesting case; aside from the stress of being on a highly important mission in a foreign land, not to mention the horror of encountering darkspawn for the first time, I see Sten's psychotic break as a logical side effect of the Qun's brainwashing. Through no fault of his own, Sten losing his sword and men means he also lost his honor, his purpose, his very soul. Since the Qunari enforce such rigid roles with nothing else to fall back on, he's helpless, and little better than tal-vashoth. Not to mention how the writers keep toying with idea that kossith are all latent Reavers on a genetic level, and that maybe they really do need extreme discipline to keep their greater aggression in check. Maybe Iron Bull was so laid back because he was more at peace with his inner Reaver?
On the other hand, since Sten chose to accept punishment for his crimes, we were not there to witness or help influence his decisions one way or the other. We can offer an alternative atonement, but he still already acknowledges his guilt. There was no change from villain to anti-hero or hero, no character growth.
Hate to be a Grammar Nazi, but Velana was Awakenings' possible Dalish Companion, while Varania was Fenris' estranged sister . Whether you view it as judgement or mercy killing, executing Anders does not allow him to atone or develop in any meaningful way. Quite the opposite, since he fully expected to be martyred. Isabella also comes back if you locked in Rivalry. Too many people forget that Friendship/Rivalry isn't just being nice or mean to them. Rivalling a Companion in Dragon Age 2 can challenge them to become better people, just as Friendship can enable their worst behaviors.
I chalk that one up to David Gaider being addicted to drama for the sake of drama. Like Isabella didn't have enough already ... I find it interesting that you accept Sten surrendering to Lothering's authorities was the start of his redemption, but deny the same possibility for Thom Rainier when he turned himself in. Almost as if you were just as offended at having to rethink everything you thought about him as much as his in game actions. Solas claims to be planning genocide, but his ultimate endgame could be a False Flag Operation and/or Zero Approval Gambit for all we know. At least, I hope so, as the Dread Wolf monologueing his true plans to one of the few people who can stop him would be really stupid writing. As for the Breach and everything after, Solas had no reason to expect Corypheus to survive his orb's initial unlocking. Not saying he doesn't bear some of the responsibility, just that there's things like context and the Law of Unintended Consequences to consider. Well off the top of my head, I'm curious why generally prefer Iron Bull not escaping the Qun, as despite him and the Chargers being mercenaries, they stuck up for the little guy. While I agree that when you first meet her Jack is a psychopath, you dismiss the fact that she had been used and abused her whole life, with no one until Shepard to even try teaching her basic empathy and morality. Sure, by then Jack is an adult and responsible for own actions, but I dislike the notion that some people are to broken to even try to save. There are probably others, but that's all for now.
Fair enough with what you said about Sten already redeeming himself before we get there and us just offering a different path for that end. lol oops my bad. Like I said, Anders was a complicated case of that. Not counting that then, no I didn't enjoy his redemption route. By friendly enough, I meant you had enough Friendship or Rivalry with Isabela. I accept Blackwall redeeming himself by eventually turning himself in and accepting his fate in prison. As for the start of his redemption, I don't always leave him in there. However I don't like his redemption paths in the game so can't add that to the list. Yeah, with Solas we'll have to see. I prefer The Iron Bull not escaping the Qun not so much because of any feeling towards him but because the path of him staying loyal saves the most lives. Even without metagaming there is the few Chargers compared to the hundred or so people on the ship. As for Jack, I don't like her but I don't think I've ever said I was against her redeeming herself. In fact I actually really like her path in the games.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Sept 26, 2018 23:06:11 GMT
Walter Black The rivalry with Anders enable his worst behaviour: he becomes unsure again, loses his faith, his inner fire, and (almost) himself and Justice – and can't take the responsibility. Anders didn't expect to be a martyr, doesn't even wants to be a martyr. He just doesn't think, Hawke let him alive, and wants to believe, his act was not vain. He's surprised and happy if Hawke spares his life if Hawke supports the mages. If not, he rather dies. But if Hawke fully rivaled him (and was that dumb, that despite s/he thought, Anders' a monster or/and Anders' goal is wrong, distracted Elthina –willingly!– and helped him to feed the orphaned kitties in the Chantry's basement...), he's able to join but his soul die. He already lost himself. This is the saddest thing I ever saw. (This version came with a patch, the original game did not contain if I remember correctly – and I hate it. Hawke totally ruins him. But I'm glad, that this version requires, that Hawke become an idiot and involved deeply the Chantry explosion...)
|
|
Slyvalyth
N3
Games: Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 623 Likes: 2,169
inherit
10419
0
2,169
Slyvalyth
623
Aug 13, 2018 21:49:10 GMT
August 2018
bellatryx
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Slyvalyth on Sept 27, 2018 0:12:42 GMT
Walter Black The rivalry with Anders enable his worst behaviour: he becomes unsure again, loses his faith, his inner fire, and (almost) himself and Justice – and can't take the responsibility. Anders didn't expect to be a martyr, doesn't even wants to be a martyr. He just doesn't think, Hawke let him alive, and wants to believe, his act was not vain. He's surprised and happy if Hawke spares his life if Hawke supports the mages. If not, he rather dies. But if Hawke fully rivaled him (and was that dumb, that despite s/he thought, Anders' a monster or/and Anders' goal is wrong, distracted Elthina –willingly!– and helped him to feed the orphaned kitties in the Chantry's basement...), he's able to join but his soul die. He already lost himself. This is the saddest thing I ever saw. (This version came with a patch, the original game did not contain if I remember correctly – and I hate it. Hawke totally ruins him. But I'm glad, that this version requires, that Hawke become an idiot and involved deeply the Chantry explosion...) In real life, Hawke would be considered an enabler, lol.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Sept 27, 2018 0:54:44 GMT
The rivalry with Anders enable his worst behaviour: he becomes unsure again, loses his faith, his inner fire, and (almost) himself and Justice – and can't take the responsibility. Anders didn't expect to be a martyr, doesn't even wants to be a martyr. He just doesn't think, Hawke let him alive, and wants to believe, his act was not vain. He's surprised and happy if Hawke spares his life if Hawke supports the mages. If not, he rather dies. But if Hawke fully rivaled him (and was that dumb, that despite s/he thought, Anders' a monster or/and Anders' goal is wrong, distracted Elthina –willingly!– and helped him to feed the orphaned kitties in the Chantry's basement...), he's able to join but his soul die. He already lost himself. This is the saddest thing I ever saw. (This version came with a patch, the original game did not contain if I remember correctly – and I hate it. Hawke totally ruins him. But I'm glad, that this version requires, that Hawke become an idiot and involved deeply the Chantry explosion...) In real life, Hawke would be considered an enabler, lol. I heard that Hepler (who wrote Anders/Justice in DA2) said it in an interview, that the friendship with him "maniac", but to be a "maniac" – if we can someone, who doesn't demonize him "maniac" – to keep him stable and determined – is a fair deal, (my) Hawke can take it. Especially because agrees with him. Still better than crush him, and to extinguish his inner fire. I saw the rivalry on YouTube. It's so sad.
|
|
Slyvalyth
N3
Games: Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 623 Likes: 2,169
inherit
10419
0
2,169
Slyvalyth
623
Aug 13, 2018 21:49:10 GMT
August 2018
bellatryx
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Slyvalyth on Sept 27, 2018 3:10:34 GMT
In real life, Hawke would be considered an enabler, lol. I heard that Hepler (who wrote Anders/Justice in DA2) said it in an interview, that the friendship with him "maniac", but to be a "maniac" – if we can someone, who doesn't demonize him "maniac" – to keep him stable and determined – is a fair deal, (my) Hawke can take it. Especially because agrees with him. Still better than crush him, and to extinguish his inner fire. I saw the rivalry on YouTube. It's so sad. I've never played DA2 so I only know the summary of what happened between Hawke and Anders. Could you post the Youtube link you referred to?
|
|
inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
|
Post by arvaarad on Sept 27, 2018 3:27:59 GMT
This version came with a patch, the original game did not contain if I remember correctly – and I hate it. Hawke totally ruins him. But I'm glad, that this version requires, that Hawke become an idiot and involved deeply the Chantry explosion... Errrr... it doesn’t actually require it. If Hawke really disapproves of Anders, they can easily kick him out of Kirkwall in Act II. And he leaves. If that happens, Anders doesn’t return to Kirkwall until the very end. The entire explosives quest is skipped. The dissonance happens not because of idiocy, but because of hypocritical Hawkes. Hawkes who claim to distrust Anders... but not enough to lose their only healer. Hawkes who, by their own standards, are also striking a deal with a demon. There’s the dissonance. Hawke is saying “I think that Justice is a demon, AND I’ll accept that demon’s offer of a healer.” This is why these Hawkes feel compelled to get involved in the explosives plot, even though they disagree. It’s Hawke’s payment for their bargain with Justice. There’s no such bargain in the “kick Anders out of Kirkwall” route. Anders does his work alone.
|
|
TabithaTH
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 496 Likes: 888
inherit
10360
0
Apr 19, 2024 22:33:59 GMT
888
TabithaTH
496
Jul 22, 2018 12:32:26 GMT
July 2018
teatabitha
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by TabithaTH on Sept 27, 2018 10:53:16 GMT
I'm pretty sure that Ander's personal quest is just as optional as every other non main-quest. Nobody is forced to help him no matter your relationship to him. If you already know the truth, then it's up to your RP why your Hawke does as they do, there isn't one universal true reason. Also, I feel like most people are taking Friendship/Rivalry too literal, but that's just my opinion.
|
|
Cyberstrike
N4
is wanting to have some fun!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
PSN: cyberstrike-nTo
Prime Posts: 1,732
Prime Likes: 467
Posts: 1,872 Likes: 3,041
inherit
634
0
May 14, 2017 17:50:43 GMT
3,041
Cyberstrike
is wanting to have some fun!
1,872
August 2016
cyberstrike
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
cyberstrike nTo
cyberstrike-nTo
1,732
467
|
Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 27, 2018 11:25:23 GMT
Why do people care about Calpernia at all? We talk to her... once? I don't recall her being particularly interesting and see no reason why I would want her in my party.
Pretty much this.
|
|
inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
|
Post by arvaarad on Sept 27, 2018 12:38:14 GMT
I'm pretty sure that Ander's personal quest is just as optional as every other non main-quest. According to the wiki, your memory is correct. My canon Hawke kicked him out, so I’d forgotten whether it was mandatory or not — I was going by the other poster’s memory of it.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Sept 27, 2018 13:56:27 GMT
I'm pretty sure that Ander's personal quest is just as optional as every other non main-quest. Nobody is forced to help him no matter your relationship to him. If you already know the truth, then it's up to your RP why your Hawke does as they do, there isn't one universal true reason. Also, I feel like most people are taking Friendship/Rivalry too literal, but that's just my opinion. Yes. Hawke can refuse his personal quest. (I did it, in friendship once, because he refused to tell his plan.) Hawke also can kick him. My point was, that if Hawke do it, Anders will not help if Hawke supports the Annulment. For achieve it, Hawke should become incredible stupid.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Sept 27, 2018 14:09:42 GMT
This version came with a patch, the original game did not contain if I remember correctly – and I hate it. Hawke totally ruins him. But I'm glad, that this version requires, that Hawke become an idiot and involved deeply the Chantry explosion... Errrr... it doesn’t actually require it. If Hawke really disapproves of Anders, they can easily kick him out of Kirkwall in Act II. And he leaves. If that happens, Anders doesn’t return to Kirkwall until the very end. The entire explosives quest is skipped. The dissonance happens not because of idiocy, but because of hypocritical Hawkes. Hawkes who claim to distrust Anders... but not enough to lose their only healer. Hawkes who, by their own standards, are also striking a deal with a demon. There’s the dissonance. Hawke is saying “I think that Justice is a demon, AND I’ll accept that demon’s offer of a healer.” This is why these Hawkes feel compelled to get involved in the explosives plot, even though they disagree. It’s Hawke’s payment for their bargain with Justice. There’s no such bargain in the “kick Anders out of Kirkwall” route. Anders does his work alone. If Hawke wants him to turn against the mages, Hawke must be an idiot. And I love this. Hawke doesn't know, what will happen, only the player knows. This quest hard to accept even in friendship, Hawke must trust Anders blindly, or believe his cause – whatever the cost. Rival Hawke no one of these.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Sept 27, 2018 15:10:56 GMT
I heard that Hepler (who wrote Anders/Justice in DA2) said it in an interview, that the friendship with him "maniac", but to be a "maniac" – if we can someone, who doesn't demonize him "maniac" – to keep him stable and determined – is a fair deal, (my) Hawke can take it. Especially because agrees with him. Still better than crush him, and to extinguish his inner fire. I saw the rivalry on YouTube. It's so sad. I've never played DA2 so I only know the summary of what happened between Hawke and Anders. Could you post the Youtube link you referred to? Many things can happen between them, it depends on Hawke's beliefs, personality, friendship/rivalry, romance/non-romance... Hawke helps to him, or not... etc. Even in the Inquisition Hawke reacts differently, it depends on their relationship and Anders' fate.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,661
gervaise21
10,778
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Sept 27, 2018 16:21:14 GMT
Yes. Hawke can refuse his personal quest. (I did it, in friendship once, because he refused to tell his plan.) Hawke also can kick him. My point was, that if Hawke do it, Anders will not help if Hawke supports the Annulment. For achieve it, Hawke should become incredible stupid I agree with you about this, not necessarily that Hawke is necessarily stupid for helping Anders but certainly hypocritical. I found it incredibly difficult to rival Anders because I couldn't bring myself to support the current system of control that was so corrupt but I found a reason it his voluntary possession by Justice. That was something that my pro-mage Hawke did feel comfortable with criticising. However, that Hawke kicked him out at the end of Act 2 after the incident with Ella, even though I succeeded in talking him down. I had a friend Hawke who refused to do his personal quest because he was being so secretive about it and being a mage they also sincerely doubted that a simple potion would do the trick with Justice. However, it just seemed odd that someone would be in a rivalry relationship with him and yet still assist him, then take him along on the Annulment. It did seem like that Hawke simply wanted to have some sort of sadistic revenge on him for all the trouble he had caused. However, would having such an unstable person along really be worth the risk? Hawke had no way of knowing that Anders would tamely accept his fate rather than turn on him later. From that point of view I suppose you are right that Hawke has to be stupid.
|
|
Slyvalyth
N3
Games: Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 623 Likes: 2,169
inherit
10419
0
2,169
Slyvalyth
623
Aug 13, 2018 21:49:10 GMT
August 2018
bellatryx
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Slyvalyth on Sept 29, 2018 2:36:07 GMT
I've never played DA2 so I only know the summary of what happened between Hawke and Anders. Could you post the Youtube link you referred to? Many things can happen between them, it depends on Hawke's beliefs, personality, friendship/rivalry, romance/non-romance... Hawke helps to him, or not... etc. Even in the Inquisition Hawke reacts differently, it depends on their relationship and Anders' fate.
I'm watching one of the Anders/Hawke video you suggest. At some point, I would've made very similar choices if I am to romance Anders except to the point where he say he needs access to the chantry without being seen and that Hawke needs to distract the grand cleric. Anders did mention early on about him allowing Justice possess him that Justice change due to Anders' anger. The moment they merged, I think Justice became Vengeance. I would've tried to see if Justice can be separated but big hesitation on my part if Anders won't tell me about his plan. Hard choice to make.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Sept 29, 2018 2:49:24 GMT
Many things can happen between them, it depends on Hawke's beliefs, personality, friendship/rivalry, romance/non-romance... Hawke helps to him, or not... etc. Even in the Inquisition Hawke reacts differently, it depends on their relationship and Anders' fate.
I'm watching one of the Anders/Hawke video you suggest. At some point, I would've made very similar choices if I am to romance Anders except to the point where he say he needs access to the chantry without being seen and that Hawke needs to distract the grand cleric. Is this where Anders' fate can change? After the conversation, after Hawke helps him at the Grand Cleric, he can be unsure. He still blows up the Chantry, but Hawke can force him to fight against the Mages, on the side of the Templars. He's already broken. In friendship, or in rivalry too, if Hawke doesn't help him to distract Elthina, he will fight against Hawke, if Hawke supports the Templars. I prefer this fate – this is Anders, and this is a great scene. The another Anders is just Anders' faded shade. On the mage side, he has a chance to regain his faith – but still broken, I suppose. He already fears Justice – himself(!) and blames Justice... And of course, Hawke can kill him, right after the explosion, and can send him away – but in this case, he will back to offer his help at the mage side, or to fight against Hawke, if Hawke supports the Templars.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,661
gervaise21
10,778
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Sept 29, 2018 7:52:23 GMT
He's already broken. In friendship, or in rivalry too, if Hawke doesn't help him to distract Elthina, he will fight against Hawke, if Hawke supports the Templars. I prefer this fate – this is Anders, and this is a great scene. I prefer this too if you are going to refuse to kill Anders and yet support the Templars (which I still think would be an odd choice). I've never got it myself because my only Templar supporting Hawke executed Anders. The majority of my Hawkes refuse to support an illegal Annulment when, as Sebastian points out, the mage responsible for the bombing both admits to it and is standing there right in front off Meredith when she makes the declaration. So I either execute him, which is what he seems to expect, or get him to help in saving the mages that he knowingly condemned by his actions (because we already knew Meredith was out of control before this). I do find it a bit annoying that in a friendship relationship with him, Anders thinks letting him live and then protecting the mages is an indication that you support what he did. But then it also annoys me that Varric thinks that defending the mages is "letting dangerous people run amoke" (the majority of whom are still locked in the Gallows) whilst supporting the Templars is "defending our way of life" (in carrying out an illegal annulment against the mages in the Circle). Some of the dialogue that comes out of our companions' mouths leaves a bit to be desired at this point.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 19, 2024 19:17:54 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Sept 29, 2018 11:44:18 GMT
He's already broken. In friendship, or in rivalry too, if Hawke doesn't help him to distract Elthina, he will fight against Hawke, if Hawke supports the Templars. I prefer this fate – this is Anders, and this is a great scene. I prefer this too if you are going to refuse to kill Anders and yet support the Templars (which I still think would be an odd choice). I've never got it myself because my only Templar supporting Hawke executed Anders. The majority of my Hawkes refuse to support an illegal Annulment when, as Sebastian points out, the mage responsible for the bombing both admits to it and is standing there right in front off Meredith when she makes the declaration. So I either execute him, which is what he seems to expect, or get him to help in saving the mages that he knowingly condemned by his actions (because we already knew Meredith was out of control before this). I do find it a bit annoying that in a friendship relationship with him, Anders thinks letting him live and then protecting the mages is an indication that you support what he did. But then it also annoys me that Varric thinks that defending the mages is "letting dangerous people run amoke" (the majority of whom are still locked in the Gallows) whilst supporting the Templars is "defending our way of life" (in carrying out an illegal annulment against the mages in the Circle). Some of the dialogue that comes out of our companions' mouths leaves a bit to be desired at this point. I see your point, but I never felt that. He just seems happy, Hawke didn't kill him. He said, he never thought, Hawke will spare his life, true, he excited and plans the future. But you're right, that it would better if Hawke would be able to express his/her feeling clearer, even if reject what he did, even if accepts. It should be an option to say, that his life is his punishment – even if Hawke supports the mages, and a proper reaction of this – dreams. (By the way, I'm sure, if this would be an option, people wouldn't hate Anders so much...) I just wondered, that in the rivalry, at mage side his speech is same. I always thought it's just a bug, and he has rivalry specific speech (like Zevran, if ended with the Warden and still offers himself to Hawke...). In the rivalry, this is quite weird – perhaps a lazy solution to a non-planned act (Hawke spares him in the rivalry and sides with the mages...). Yes, Varric's not that neutral. But what Varric says, probably mirrored the game's perspective: revolution's bad, everything that defends the (false) order, including the crimes, massacres much more acceptable. This is a wrong perspective – but even the Inquisition's presentation strengthens that – for example, Cullen's presentation as a knightly-knight. But it's just my usual rant...
|
|
inherit
Champion of Kirkwall
1212
0
8,023
Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by Sifr on Sept 29, 2018 15:08:11 GMT
Sten is an interesting case; aside from the stress of being on a highly important mission in a foreign land, not to mention the horror of encountering darkspawn for the first time, I see Sten's psychotic break as a logical side effect of the Qun's brainwashing. Through no fault of his own, Sten losing his sword and men means he also lost his honor, his purpose, his very soul. Since the Qunari enforce such rigid roles with nothing else to fall back on, he's helpless, and little better than tal-vashoth. Not to mention how the writers keep toying with idea that kossith are all latent Reavers on a genetic level, and that maybe they really do need extreme discipline to keep their greater aggression in check. Maybe Iron Bull was so laid back because he was more at peace with his inner Reaver?
On the other hand, since Sten chose to accept punishment for his crimes, we were not there to witness or help influence his decisions one way or the other. We can offer an alternative atonement, but he still already acknowledges his guilt. There was no change from villain to anti-hero or hero, no character growth.
There definitely evidence across all three games that the Qunari have indoctrinated their people to believe that they'd be mindless savages without the Qun and this belief can run so strong that some Tal-Vashoth turn into mindless savages, because that's what they believe they are. As Petrice (surprisingly accurately) noted in DA2, "even their rebels conform".
Members of the Antaam have also consistently been characterised (thus far) as being far more strict in how they follow the Qun, whereas members of the Ben-Hassrath have been shown to occasionally employ the spirit of the Qun, rather than adhere completely to the letter.
Indoctrination and his strict adherence to the Qun, would make Sten's breakdown far more understandable, when viewed in that light.
What is most interesting is that even though the Qun dictates that the loss of his sword would leave him Tal-Vashoth, as well as engaging in violent actions he believes are performed by Tal-Vashoth, he's nonetheless reciting the Qun to himself when we first walk up to his cage. That might suggest that despite potentially causing his mental breakdown, the Qun might also have been responsible for snapping him back to his senses.
Rather than having chose to remain at the scene of his murder spree and accept punishment for his crimes (even execution), Sten may have done so because that's what the Qun would have demanded for his crime? That might be why Sten continues to recite the Qun in his cage, as well as introduce himself as a member of the Beresaad.
If Sten was going to die for his crimes, it would be as a Qunari, not as a Tal-Vashoth.
|
|
Andraste_Reborn
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,460 Likes: 6,309
inherit
469
0
Apr 20, 2024 15:20:26 GMT
6,309
Andraste_Reborn
1,460
August 2016
andrastereborn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Andraste_Reborn on Sept 30, 2018 1:53:03 GMT
Is there a sufficient reason to assume that there isn't a kernel of truth in this idea? Well, there's no evidence that Vashoth who have never been indoctrinated by the Qunari are more savage, on average, than any other group of people in Thedas. Of course, our sample size may not be large enough to know for sure.
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Sept 30, 2018 9:01:02 GMT
Capernia was one of the most interesting characters in DAI IMO (I made a fan thread about her on the old BSN, just so you know where I stand), and yes, I would rather like to have her as a companion in a DA game.
About redemption or not, plainly I don't care and I do not necessarily limit myself to characters who have done no wrongs in their lives, or to such who have done so and have a desire for redemption. Calpernia had a goal I could agree with to some extent, and how she chose to pursue it would be, at the point where we encounter her again, in the past. In fact, I have some acquired dislike for redemption stories due to overexposure and would find it far more interesting for a character like Calpernia NOT to pursue redemption, but comment on her own past with statements like "Yes, I made a mistake when working with Corypheus, and yes, it did cost many lives. Now can we put the past behind us and continue? The future is more important than the past."
In general, I do not think characters have to be "morally balanced" in some way to appeal, and I dislike the tendency to hypermoralize everything these days. Some characters are expedient and it can be ok for them to be, some characters do bad stuff for the right reasons and that can be ok as well in my view. The only characters I would reject with no further ado are the malicious ones, or those who do bad stuff for self-gratification.
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Sept 30, 2018 11:02:36 GMT
In fact, I have some acquired dislike for redemption stories due to overexposure and would find it far more interesting for a character like Calpernia NOT to pursue redemption, but comment on her own past with statements like "Yes, I made a mistake when working with Corypheus, and yes, it did cost many lives. Now can we put the past behind us and continue? The future is more important than the past." That's fair in theory, but I would say works more for someone like Loghain. And not necessarily from a moral perspective either: How do we know that someone who made a "mistake" of these proportions won't make the same "mistake" again given half a chance? Assuming that you can't trust someone like that is entirely pragmatic. At best someone like that could be an ally of circumstance, or an "enemy of my enemy", but likely no more than that. After all, it's the visionaries who are the most dangerous, those convinced there's utopia just around the corner, just after the next pile of broken and bleeding corpses. And yet, without visionaries there would never be any progress. There are degrees to everything, there is no hard line between dedication and fanaticism, and someone who made a mistake they regret in pursuing their goals can still learn from experience without going full redemption arc.
The trust issue could also make for some interesting conversations: "I'll assure you I'll be more careful about who I work with in future. Also, you ask if I can be trusted, but what about you? You know my goals, how can I trust you not to betray me?" While I'm at it, I also prefer characters, now and then, who have their own goals and won't sacrifice them to follow you no matter what. I also don't agree that there can't be friendship in such cases, it's just dependent on not working against each others' goals. I find that entirely plausible. Your relationship might come to a tragic end depending on the non-personal choices you make, of course, and that, too, I find entirely plausible, and.... desirable.
|
|