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Post by Iddy on Oct 17, 2018 14:29:13 GMT
As in, a mage will always defeat a non-mage in a 1v1 fight (unless the mage is really weak).
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Post by Reznore on Oct 17, 2018 15:55:21 GMT
There's templars who can counter magic. Surprise attack are also a thing, an arrow to the face a mage don't see coming is lethal. The Iron Bull says there are shield technique to counter spells, as in the shield takes the brunt of the magic. Also depends on the mage specialisation and endurance.
But I imagine a good mage who's trained in fighting magic would wipe the floor with non mage on 1 vs 1, face to face.
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Post by davesin on Oct 17, 2018 16:16:33 GMT
Vivenne is supposed to have more combat experience then most Circle mages and Blackwall (one of the most experienced soldiers we ever had as companion) says he would die in single combat with her. Combat-oriented mage would probably be a winner in most fights.
I would say Rhys from Asunder is pretty much your average mage who can control his power, but combat isn't his specialization (I don't think he uses more then one combat spell in the book). He can defend himself against most people, but I imagine him using spells for their fear effects (he fooled a templar novice with a Wisp) just to avoid confrontation. Fighting a Templar or warrior who knows how to fight a mage would be something different.
An untrained mage (who just discovered their power) is probably going to die, unless they manage to scare potential opponent off or accidently use some powerful spell.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 17, 2018 16:31:17 GMT
I remember that Maric was completely overwhelmed by Severan and only won by cheating with poison.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 17, 2018 16:38:43 GMT
A mage able to defeat many non-mages – if they're similar in their experience. (Of course, if the attack is unexpected, very quick and string, the mage is dead – just s the most experienced fighter, if someone assassinates him/her when sleep or with poison...) For example I can't imagine my warrior Hawke would stronger than Bethany or Merrill in battle, and especially not stronger than Anders. davesin Why would Vivienne more combat-experienced like the other Circle Mages? I can't imagine she's a veteran of the Orlesian civil war or the Blight (if not the third/fourth... but perhaps, not that old – who knows?) Nothing justify her battle experience.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 17, 2018 16:41:33 GMT
Vivenne is supposed to have more combat experience then most Circle mages and Blackwall (one of the most experienced soldiers we ever had as companion) says he would die in single combat with her The Knight Enchanter specialisation was greatly overpowered so Blackwall was right about this. My Knight Enchanter Lavellan was able to take down even the most powerful dragon in the main game single handed by virtue of the various attributes he got from it. So he would have to have been really caught off his guard to be in serious danger against a regular warrior. Back in DA2 my mage Hawke finished off the Arishok fairly quickly with the right spell combinations but not as swiftly as my Shadow Assassin did, and initially I was struggling before I realised the best spells to use against him, so I feel that better reflected the relative merits of mage and non-mage in a conflict situation. The main danger with any mage is that they normally stand back from the front line of any battle, buffing their own troops and hitting the opposition with area effect spells. Which is why in the first two games I always made sure I pinpointed the mage on a battlefield and took them out first, particularly if they were a blood mage. DAI rather reduced the level threat I felt from any mage we encountered. This is probably because they removed blood mages from the game even as enemies. A blood mage such as we encountered in DAO and DA2 could be a truly frightening and challenging foe. In a one on one situation between a highly trained Templar and a similarly trained mage, I think they would be fairly evenly matched. This is probably why on the whole they hunt down apostates in pairs, to be sure the mage is at a disadvantage. However, a Templar would probably be hard pressed against a high level blood mage, which is why they have Seekers to deal with them. Of course in boiling the lyrium in the mages blood they are themselves using a form of blood magic but they conveniently forget about that.
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Post by davesin on Oct 17, 2018 16:52:07 GMT
davesinWhy would Vivienne more combat-experienced like the other Circle Mages? I can't imagine she's a veteran of the Orlesian civil war or the Blight (if not the third/fourth... but perhaps, not that old – who knows?) Nothing justify her battle experience. Iron Bull: I thought mages in Orlais didn't fight. You're more than capable with combat magic. Vivienne: Mages in Orlais do not fight without permission, my dear. Some are better at gaining permission than others. Also, she's a Knight Enchanter, which is primarily combat specialization and requires certain mind-set according to Helaine.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 17, 2018 16:53:19 GMT
davesinWhy would Vivienne more combat-experienced like the other Circle Mages? I can't imagine she's a veteran of the Orlesian civil war or the Blight (if not the third/fourth... but perhaps, not that old – who knows?) Nothing justify her battle experience. Iron Bull: I thought mages in Orlais didn't fight. You're more than capable with combat magic. Vivienne: Mages in Orlais do not fight without permission, my dear. Some are better at gaining permission than others. Also, she's a Knight Enchanter, which is primarily combat specialization and requires certain mind-set according to Helaine. And where she fought? In the balls?
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Post by davesin on Oct 17, 2018 17:11:53 GMT
Catilina I don't know. I also don't know where majority of companions fought, yet most of them can be called top-tier combatants based on what we can see and how they carry on. In Vivienne's case, no one in party ever doubt her power. Lore-wise, she has a specialization associated with mages who seek a heat of battle. Gameplay-wise, she can seriously kick ass. If you want to dismiss character's combat capability just because you don't agree with them, well it's pointless to argue. I remember you dismissed Templar's combat usefulness against mages, which makes me wonder how exactly were mages locked up for centuries if no one could stop them.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 17, 2018 17:33:50 GMT
Catilina I don't know. I also don't know where majority of companions fought, yet most of them can be called top-tier combatants based on what we can see and how they carry on. In Vivienne's case, no one in party ever doubt her power. Lore-wise, she has a specialization associated with mages who seek a heat of battle. Gameplay-wise, she can seriously kick ass. If you want to dismiss character's combat capability just because you don't agree with them, well it's pointless to argue. I remember you dismissed Templar's combat usefulness against mages, which makes me wonder how exactly were mages locked up for centuries if no one could stop them. The Templars are good against the mages, nobody denied it – only not against the blood magic, and the mages are more flexibile even against the mages/abominations.
The templars are good against the mages, but the mages even better.
___
According the game Vivienne can fight. But this not in her story.
Cassandra – Seeker, experienced, high ranked. Fighter.
Blackwall – Grey Warden – soldier, captain. Varric – rogue with Carta relationship, and veteran of Kirkwall, Hawke's gang. Sera – rogue, rather "criminal" – I can imagine, she's experienced, just like Varric. Cole – some experience from the Asunder, but we don't know much about him, just that he's a spirit.
Solas – apostate. (He probably not here for his combat experience, but for his studies) Dorian – we know nothing about his combat experience. But experienced mage, just like Vivienne, or rather more. Vivienne – first enchanter, court jester enchanter (whatever it means), mistress, "gamer". Where her combat experience?
Dorian's and Vivienne's case proves, that every experienced (not necessarily combat-experienced) mage is a valuable fighter, but nothing proves, that she's better than any other good student from the Circle.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 17, 2018 18:18:23 GMT
[ Vivienne – first enchanter, court jester enchanter (whatever it means), mistress, "gamer". Where her combat experience? Whilst I am inclined to agree with you, the explanation could be that he experience wasn't gained against human targets. They have hunting in Orlais. Some is very genteel and kept to parkland settings (as described in Masked Empire) but they also have hunting further afield, possibly against more dangerous creatures, such as the Wyverns that we hunted in MoA. So it is entirely possible that Vivienne honed her skills out in the wilds. It is also possible that she did get involved in some of the confrontations in the Civil War but kept it from generally being known (victims dead and allies sworn to secrecy). Plus her lover Bastian, was formerly a bard who trained under the legendry Black Fox. So whilst when he took up his title on the death of his elder sister he maintained a appearance of respectability, it is entirely possible he retained his links to some of the less savoury aspects of Orlesian society where his mistress could also practice her skills. Certainly she needed to defend herself from bards sent to teach the upstart a lesson when she first became his mistress. So she was not without experience in using her magic offensively outside the Circle.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 17, 2018 18:20:26 GMT
Vivienne – first enchanter, court jester enchanter (whatever it means), mistress, "gamer". Where her combat experience? Whilst I am inclined to agree with you, the explanation could be that he experience wasn't gained against human targets. They have hunting in Orlais. Some is very genteel and kept to parkland settings (as described in Masked Empire) but they also have hunting further afield, possibly against more dangerous creatures, such as the Wyverns that we hunted in MoA. So it is entirely possible that Vivienne honed her skills out in the wilds. It is also possible that she did get involved in some of the confrontations in the Civil War but kept it from generally being known (victims dead and allies sworn to secrecy). Plus her lover Bastian, was formerly a bard who trained under the legendry Black Fox. So whilst when he took up his title on the death of his elder sister he maintained a appearance of respectability, it is entirely possible he retained his links to some of the less savoury aspects of Orlesian society where his mistress could also practice her skills. Certainly she needed to defend herself from bards sent to teach the upstart a lesson when she first became his mistress. So she was not without experience in using her magic offensively outside the Circle. These are good points.
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Post by davesin on Oct 17, 2018 18:27:02 GMT
Being at court doesn't mean she didn't have a chance to get her hands dirty. Other companions respect Vivienne for her combat skill (Iron Bull faced some mages before and can tell she's powerful, Solas disagrees with her on many things but he knows she is dangerous). And once again - she is a knight enchanter. A rare specialization meant for getting close during battle. Not every mage get this training (or any martial training at all, as you can read in one codex entry during Broken Circle). Those who get it are supposed to have experience in battle. So unless you suggest she bought the title or something like that, I wouldn't describe Vivienne as "another Circle mage".
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Post by Catilina on Oct 17, 2018 18:40:50 GMT
Being at court doesn't mean she didn't have a chance to get her hands dirty. Other companions respect Vivienne for her combat skill (Iron Bull faced some mages before and can tell she's powerful, Solas disagrees with her on many things but he knows she is dangerous). And once again - she is a knight enchanter. A rare specialization meant for getting close during battle. Not every mage get this training (or any martial training at all, as you can read in one codex entry during Broken Circle). Those who get it are supposed to have experience in battle. So unless you suggest she bought the title or something like that, I wouldn't describe Vivienne as "another Circle mage". Haha, you wrote, being at court, doesn't mean she didn't have a chance to get her hand dirty? Very funny. Of course, it not means: the Orlesian court is the dirtiest thing in Thedas. (Okay, with Minhratus in competition. Who able to keep his/her hand clean in the Orlesian court, is an embodied miracle! Zevran's hand was cleaner than anyone in the Orlesian court. Yes, I see: Gerva wrote, probably Vivienne attended in the Orlesian hunt, like Hawke. It's possible. Vivienne was a high ranked mage, she was able to request this training, even if not that talented, but I know, she is.
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Post by davesin on Oct 17, 2018 19:02:11 GMT
Being at court doesn't mean she didn't have a chance to get her hands dirty. Other companions respect Vivienne for her combat skill (Iron Bull faced some mages before and can tell she's powerful, Solas disagrees with her on many things but he knows she is dangerous). And once again - she is a knight enchanter. A rare specialization meant for getting close during battle. Not every mage get this training (or any martial training at all, as you can read in one codex entry during Broken Circle). Those who get it are supposed to have experience in battle. So unless you suggest she bought the title or something like that, I wouldn't describe Vivienne as "another Circle mage". Haha, you wrote, being at court, doesn't mean she didn't have a chance to get her hand dirty? Very funny. Of course, it not means: the Orlesian court is the dirtiest thing in Thedas. (Okay, with Minhratus in competition. Who able to keep his/her hand clean in the Orlesian court, is an embodied miracle! All protagonists in Masked Empire have combat experience and can face trained soldiers even if they didn't have a reason to get into battle themselves. Even Celene, who spends most of her time getting ready for the next party, she still fights for her life in that book and while her reactions aren't as good as they used to be, it's still a training of a true bard. While you don't expect this kind of people to get into fight, it doesn't mean they can't stand on they own during one. Also, we've seen mages working with nobles, even fighting for them in the past. They are mostly apostates (Lienne, Howe's mages in Denerim) because you won't easily get a Circle mage for help, but Vivenne has more freedom then most Circle mages - getting into some feud between two noble houses doesn't seem to be unrealistic in her case.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 17, 2018 19:16:40 GMT
Being at court doesn't mean she didn't have a chance to get her hands dirty. Other companions respect Vivienne for her combat skill (Iron Bull faced some mages before and can tell she's powerful, Solas disagrees with her on many things but he knows she is dangerous). And once again - she is a knight enchanter. A rare specialization meant for getting close during battle. Not every mage get this training (or any martial training at all, as you can read in one codex entry during Broken Circle). Those who get it are supposed to have experience in battle. So unless you suggest she bought the title or something like that, I wouldn't describe Vivienne as "another Circle mage". Haha, you wrote, being at court, doesn't mean she didn't have a chance to get her hand dirty? Very funny. Of course, it not means: the Orlesian court is the dirtiest thing in Thedas. (Okay, with Minhratus in competition. Who able to keep his/her hand clean in the Orlesian court, is an embodied miracle! Zevran's hand was cleaner than anyone in the Orlesian court. Yes, I see: Gerva wrote, probably Vivienne attended in the Orlesian hunt, like Hawke. It's possible. Vivienne was a high ranked mage, she was able to request this training, even if not that talented, but I know, she is. Just further proof Josephine is a goddess.
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Post by opuspace on Oct 18, 2018 3:57:50 GMT
Now I'm wondering if anyone fought an optimally specced Bull as a fully specced Knight Enchanter in Trespasser.
To be honest, it seems like mages at first have the upper hand...until one takes experience, intelligence and reflexes into account. It's already been said about combat mages being far more dangerous against non mages, but I don't think that means they're unbeatable. But while combat gives a mage the edge, the risk of possession kind of makes the whole state a trade off. They have to learn how to develop a strong will and they have to learn how to fight effectively. No Circle mage novice is worth squat against a seasoned fog warrior for example. None of their natural abilities makes them inherently superior. It just makes them inherently more dangerous.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 18, 2018 11:15:49 GMT
As has been mentioned, it depends on the mage; not only their skill level, training, and experience, but raw level of innate power as well. Some mages can train all they want, but they just don't have the power, like Felix.
Melee fighters will have the most difficult time. If a mage starts out at a distance, keeps a level head, and chooses their spells wisely, they should be able to take out almost any non-templar melee opponent. Mages have a lot of tricks that can distract (panic, terror, sleep) or slow (runes, frost) opponents, giving them the tools to maintain that distance in order to use the more powerful tools to roast their opponent.
But hey, shit happens. Battle is unpredictable. A mage could trip on his own feet, giving the melee opponent the opportunity to close and get in the mage's face. Mages have tools in that situation as well, of course, but they are far more vulnerable.
It's all variable.
However, I will also add that the majority of normal people in Thedas are not trained as our characters and associates are. I would say that the majority of mages have considerable advantage over the common person. This is why they're so feared (and the whole demon thing, of course).
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Post by sgtreed24 on Oct 18, 2018 20:49:38 GMT
I'd say Templars are superior.
They deny magic and are trained better than normal people and mages in melee combat.
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Honor is a fool's prize, glory is no use to the dead.
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Post by TheEmptyRoad on Oct 19, 2018 11:28:21 GMT
He's talking about force-users (Jedi and their inane kinda-sorta-pseudo-pacifism in particular) but the basic concepts still apply.
Squishy and not-so-squishy wizards, force-using demigods...all will fall before the power of the normies (and their assassin droid friends).
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Post by Catilina on Oct 19, 2018 12:03:38 GMT
I'd say Templars are superior.They deny magic and are trained better than normal people and mages in melee combat. Yes, the Templars should be locked, not the mages... They're dangerous junkies with sharp weapons...
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Post by Iddy on Oct 19, 2018 16:15:31 GMT
I'd say Templars are superior.They deny magic and are trained better than normal people and mages in melee combat. Yes, the Templars should be locked, not the mages... They're dangerous junkies with sharp weapons... How about locking up mage LIs in a sex dungeon?
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Post by opuspace on Oct 19, 2018 16:58:56 GMT
I'd say Templars are superior.They deny magic and are trained better than normal people and mages in melee combat. Yes, the Templars should be locked, not the mages... They're dangerous junkies with sharp weapons... Dorian was right! His poor blushing buttcheeks!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 19, 2018 17:16:51 GMT
Soundwave superior. Mages inferior.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 19, 2018 17:20:07 GMT
All that magic is no match for a sword through the chest.
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