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Post by lilyonce on Nov 15, 2018 20:24:51 GMT
I made it pretty clear that mages can be valuable by providing skills for mages to have a trade, aside learning magic and nothing else. And mages also can be valuable by finding cures of the blight infection, and have mages as recruiters to have young people who are gifted with magic into circles to receive proper education. That mages can become valuable to society by having a trade would imply that magic is valueless or less valuable than a trade. They can be valuable or most valuable by not doing magic or by doing less magic. I don't think that's true. I think value is a bad concept to here generally but I thought you might explain it convincingly.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 15, 2018 20:29:20 GMT
I made it pretty clear that mages can be valuable by providing skills for mages to have a trade, aside learning magic and nothing else. And mages also can be valuable by finding cures of the blight infection, and have mages as recruiters to have young people who are gifted with magic into circles to receive proper education. That mages can become valuable to society by having a trade would imply that magic is valueless or less valuable than a trade. They can be valuable or most valuable by not doing magic or by doing less magic. I don't think that's true. I think value is a bad concept to here generally but I thought you might explain it convincingly. If you don't have the intellectual capacity to understand my statement, then I can't help you.
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Post by lilyonce on Nov 15, 2018 20:43:31 GMT
There's this thing called opportunity cost. And certainly value can't be decided without reviewing both costs and benefits. Should the Circle be a trade school that does magic on the side? I don't think so but if it prioritizes trade education- and does so to provide value to society (implying magic doesn't provide as much)- that's what it would be.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 15, 2018 20:56:07 GMT
Well if we are going into the potential for mages to better contribute to society, then I don't see why a mage has to be have a job associated with magic. In truth, half of thier value comes purely from thier (non-magic) education and how they may have the incentive and infrastructure to use it for society as a whole.
If the Chantry was really inclined, they could set up a small amount public schools where commoners could be taught basic literacy and y'know...have them able to read the Chant of Light instead of solely relying on oration by Chantry sisters. It doesn't require magic, just someone who is literate and has time to dedicate to education. Or if we want to go more small-scale then just have a mage who can point out small but important things....like how some of thier backwater remedies can in fact be either useless or harmful to the community at large. Or there may be some sort of elder somewhere dealing with finances and would benefit from an educated accountant. In a world where just having basic grammar and mathematic skills is a rarity among the population, the potential benefits could be staggering.
In truth, I always thought the (ideal) Chantry missed out on supreme potential to use the Circle for public relief and public benefit. And because most of these jobs come with basic freedoms (like going outside) it would go a long way in mitigating mage dissent too.
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Post by Sah291 on Nov 15, 2018 20:59:03 GMT
I made it pretty clear that mages can be valuable by providing skills for mages to have a trade, aside learning magic and nothing else. And mages also can be valuable by finding cures of the blight infection, and have mages as recruiters to have young people who are gifted with magic into circles to receive proper education. That mages can become valuable to society by having a trade would imply that magic is valueless or less valuable than a trade. They can be valuable or most valuable by not doing magic or by doing less magic. I don't think that's true. I think value is a bad concept to here generally but I thought you might explain it convincingly. The only thing preventing them from taking up additional trades is really just the caste system, I'd think. Lore wise, it's still a feudal society, so unfortunately they are pretty strictly bound by who they are and which class they were born into. They'd be joining the merchant class essentially...which may be a move up for peasant mages or a serious downgrade for mages from noble families. But there's no reason they couldn't in theory. No different than being a writer and a musician at the same time. Or a scientist and an alchemist even. They would probably choose occupations related to their areas of expertise in magic, like medicine for a healer.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 15, 2018 21:12:02 GMT
In truth, I always thought the (ideal) Chantry missed out on supreme potential to use the Circle for public relief and public benefit. And because most of these jobs come with basic freedoms (like going outside) it would go a long way in mitigating mage dissent too. The fact is I've always thought the real reason that mages were kept separate from society is the potential of those from commoner backgrounds to upset the social order. The nobles didn't mind losing the occasional offspring to the Circles, who were always better treated than those from commoner backgrounds, in order to ensure that those most fitted to challenge their rule of society were kept locked away. The Chantry and nobility don't want well educated commoners. This was particularly true in Orlais where the nobility believe they have divine right to rule and the Chantry has always backed this idea, probably having been the one to have originally started it. Naturally they don't want ordinary people literate and able to read the Chant of Light and realise how it has been misinterpreted down the years, or other publications that might make them think about challenging the established order of things. So naturally the Chantry don't want the well educated mages out there in the community questioning or causing other people to question everything that they have asserted. They don't want them educating people outside the control of the Chantry. The same probably also goes for healing of the population. Look at Kirkwall where Anders' clinic was universally popular and even used by people of higher status, like Seneshal Bran (although that may have been because he wanted to avoid gossip). It is clear that even though the Chantry had access to people with healing capabilities, they didn't use them for that purpose. I think Giselle in the Hinterlands was the first example we had seen of a Chantry sister advocating using mages to heal people and the reaction of the soldier to the suggestion proves that it was not common practice or he would not have been so wary of allowing it.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 15, 2018 22:09:56 GMT
In truth, I always thought the (ideal) Chantry missed out on supreme potential to use the Circle for public relief and public benefit. And because most of these jobs come with basic freedoms (like going outside) it would go a long way in mitigating mage dissent too. The fact is I've always thought the real reason that mages were kept separate from society is the potential of those from commoner backgrounds to upset the social order. The nobles didn't mind losing the occasional offspring to the Circles, who were always better treated than those from commoner backgrounds, in order to ensure that those most fitted to challenge their rule of society were kept locked away. The Chantry and nobility don't want well educated commoners. This was particularly true in Orlais where the nobility believe they have divine right to rule and the Chantry has always backed this idea, probably having been the one to have originally started it. Naturally they don't want ordinary people literate and able to read the Chant of Light and realise how it has been misinterpreted down the years, or other publications that might make them think about challenging the established order of things. So naturally the Chantry don't want the well educated mages out there in the community questioning or causing other people to question everything that they have asserted. They don't want them educating people outside the control of the Chantry. The same probably also goes for healing of the population. Look at Kirkwall where Anders' clinic was universally popular and even used by people of higher status, like Seneshal Bran (although that may have been because he wanted to avoid gossip). It is clear that even though the Chantry had access to people with healing capabilities, they didn't use them for that purpose. I think Giselle in the Hinterlands was the first example we had seen of a Chantry sister advocating using mages to heal people and the reaction of the soldier to the suggestion proves that it was not common practice or he would not have been so wary of allowing it. Oh I don't doubt that the Chantry we have now is exceptionally corrupt and/or largely fueled by the specific interests of those in power. I was mostly referring to an ideal Chantry. But even they aren't as into charity as they should be, you'd still think they would make a few attempts every once and a while to use the mages every once and a while. Even if its only for appearances. But I suppose largely keeping them in towers makes it easier for them to control the 'mage narrative' where they can paint mages as terrible dangers to the world that only the Chantry/Templars can control by keeping them in isolated towers.
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Post by lilyonce on Nov 15, 2018 22:34:20 GMT
Well if we are going into the potential for mages to better contribute to society, then I don't see why a mage has to be have a job associated with magic. I think they already contribute perfectly well just by studying and performing magic- and actually it wouldn't matter if magic was valueless to society. Many great things are. No instrumental rationality is necessary for mages doing magic to be a good thing IMO. But I think magic in DA offers an alternative to a worldview that involves bean counting and mediating spiritual experiences through text in the first place. I don't think mages in these positions is necessarily a good idea. It's not the best use of mages at least.
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Post by theascendent on Nov 15, 2018 23:44:35 GMT
All right, now to really stir the pot. Is the magical education the Dalish receive better or worse than an average Circle Mage? In this scenario we will be treating Tevinter Circles as the best, and as for the Qunari? Need I say more. I can because I don't have my tongue cut out or my mouth stitched together.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 16, 2018 0:12:01 GMT
In truth, I always thought the (ideal) Chantry missed out on supreme potential to use the Circle for public relief and public benefit. And because most of these jobs come with basic freedoms (like going outside) it would go a long way in mitigating mage dissent too. The fact is I've always thought the real reason that mages were kept separate from society is the potential of those from commoner backgrounds to upset the social order. The nobles didn't mind losing the occasional offspring to the Circles, who were always better treated than those from commoner backgrounds, in order to ensure that those most fitted to challenge their rule of society were kept locked away. The Chantry and nobility don't want well educated commoners. This was particularly true in Orlais where the nobility believe they have divine right to rule and the Chantry has always backed this idea, probably having been the one to have originally started it. Naturally they don't want ordinary people literate and able to read the Chant of Light and realise how it has been misinterpreted down the years, or other publications that might make them think about challenging the established order of things. So naturally the Chantry don't want the well educated mages out there in the community questioning or causing other people to question everything that they have asserted. They don't want them educating people outside the control of the Chantry. The same probably also goes for healing of the population. Look at Kirkwall where Anders' clinic was universally popular and even used by people of higher status, like Seneshal Bran (although that may have been because he wanted to avoid gossip). It is clear that even though the Chantry had access to people with healing capabilities, they didn't use them for that purpose. I think Giselle in the Hinterlands was the first example we had seen of a Chantry sister advocating using mages to heal people and the reaction of the soldier to the suggestion proves that it was not common practice or he would not have been so wary of allowing it. Exactly.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 16, 2018 2:47:42 GMT
All right, now to really stir the pot. Is the magical education the Dalish receive better or worse than an average Circle Mage? In this scenario we will be treating Tevinter Circles as the best, and as for the Qunari? Need I say more. I can because I don't have my tongue cut out or my mouth stitched together. I think it depends on how the Dalish look at magic and magical pursuits. I've gotten the impression that Tevinter and southern Circles treat magical education post- basic training as a scholarly pursuit. In addition, mages in southern Circles don't have much else to do. Earning the rank of enchanter (Dorian has this), or senior enchanter, can be thought of as similar to Bachelor and Master's degrees; they're not necessary but undertaken for their own sake (in addition to the prestige they confer).
Do the Dalish have similar attitudes, even if their magical training is less organized and structured? Or are they of the more practical mindset because of their circumstances as a nomadic culture? (Note that this is specifically about the Dalish, not the elves of old that likely did have more scholarly pursuits). I don't know as I'm not too familiar with elfy stuff.
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Post by Sah291 on Nov 16, 2018 17:44:10 GMT
All right, now to really stir the pot. Is the magical education the Dalish receive better or worse than an average Circle Mage? In this scenario we will be treating Tevinter Circles as the best, and as for the Qunari? Need I say more. I can because I don't have my tongue cut out or my mouth stitched together. Well Circle trained mages have all the benefits of a formal education, so they likely would have way more knowledge and resources at their disposal. It's supposed to be on par with the education the nobles receive, and of course in Tevinter the Circles there are considered prestigious universities. So I think we can say they do have the better education. The Dalish have more of an oral tradition...with all the pros and cons that go with that. They could have much more freedom to practice, not being under Chantry control, and they have a rich history to draw from that was steeped in powerful magic...but they are limited with resouces, have lost a lot of their history, and lore. I think it's like Solas implies, the Dalish have whispers of half remembered ancient rituals, which are unlike anything the Circle teaches.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 16, 2018 19:39:58 GMT
Is the magical education the Dalish receive better or worse than an average Circle Mage? It is very difficult to make a comparison. Would you say that the average Avvar or Rivaini mage receive a better or worse education than a Circle mage? The fact is the traditions surrounding the Dalish keepers, Avvar augurs and Rivaini seers are so different from the average Circle training. Naturally the Circle mages regard them as "hedge" mages but they would have said the same of Morrigan and she was definitely no hedge mage. As World of Thedas says, owing to their nomadic lifestyle largely out in the wilds, the Dalish spells are deeply rooted in nature with a heavy emphasis on herbs and healing. They can do things that no Circle mage is trained to do, such as Wrath of the Elvhen, and know healing magic, such as delaying the onset of Blight sickness, that is largely unknown outside of the ranks of the Grey Wardens (and they admit they learned it from the elves). It would seem that the Dalish do not study simply for scholarly interest, even though they are free to do so, but purely from a practical viewpoint in order to be of use to the clan. So whilst in their areas of expertise they are probably superior to a Circle mage, it covers only a very narrow range, whereas the average Circle mage probably has more wide ranging knowledge, within the parameters of what the Chantry allow, but less specialised as a result.
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Post by lilyonce on Nov 17, 2018 1:53:21 GMT
In this scenario we will be treating Tevinter Circles as the best I know what you mean but this is like telling me that Chicago school students have the best economics education. Many will agree but I won't be one of them.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 17, 2018 2:03:08 GMT
I know what you mean but this is like telling me that Chicago school students have the best economics education. Many will agree but I won't be one of them. But the statement isn't about location. It's due to the restrictions the Chantry enforces on southern Circle mages, which are not a factor in the Tevinter Circles. A more apt comparison would be southern American schools restricting education about evolution. I would definitely say that schools that don't have such restrictions offer better education.
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Post by lilyonce on Nov 17, 2018 2:25:05 GMT
But the statement isn't about location. The Chicago school of economics is a way of doing economics (most closely associated with the University of Chicago Economics faculty). It isn't bound by location- it's a school of thought. Chicago school economics engineered the Chilean economy of the 1970s and 80s, for example, and influenced Margaret Thatcher's policies in Britain. Just like the Chicago school, I think Tevinter magic is bad for everything it doesn't do or ignores and not what it does well- and it's debatable that what is does well is even good.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 17, 2018 2:40:37 GMT
The Chicago school of economics is a way of doing economics (most closely associated with the University of Chicago Economics faculty). It isn't bound by location- it's a school of thought. Chicago school economics engineered the Chilean economy of the 1970s and 80s, for example, and influenced Margaret Thatcher's policies in Britain. Just like the Chicago school, I think Tevinter magic is bad for everything it doesn't do or ignores and not what it does well, and it's debatable that what is does well is even good. Well, that's embarrassing on my part. Thanks for that information. I don't think we know enough about Tevinter mage education to know this, though. Keep in mind that this is about magical education, not revisionist history regarding Andraste, the elves, or whatever else. There is one codex describing a bunch of Tevinter mages that undertook the (admittedly futile) task of mapping out the Fade. The fact that they were able to make the attempt sets them apart from the southern Circles. So what about their magical education do you think they don't do or ignore?
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Post by lilyonce on Nov 17, 2018 3:17:04 GMT
Well, that's embarrassing on my part. It's a nerdy thing to know so don't be. That they tried to do this at all is a big red flag to me. Their approach to and style of magic is bound up in a worldview that I really don't like. That they tried to label, categorize, map and possess an ephemeral world common to all into a thing for their despotic manipulation offends me. That thinking led to the Black City IMO. Much of their magic is based on subduing, manipulating and dominating the environment or others by force. There's a reason they love blood magic. They ignore magic or the possibility of magic that doesn't fit their purposes. And they apparently get no training in ethics.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 17, 2018 5:16:05 GMT
lilyonce To me the morality of those issues you raise doesn't have much to do with the quality of the education. I suspect we won't agree on that point as I'm looking at the holistic acquirement of knowledge and skills, apart from those sorts of considerations you raise. There are things that the southern Circle mages don't know because of Chantry restrictions. That Tevinter mages do know them tells me that their magical education is superior. They ignore magic or the possibility of magic that doesn't fit their purposes. What is the evidence of this?
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 17, 2018 8:54:46 GMT
And they apparently get no training in ethics. You could equally throw such an accusation at the University of Orlais and the nobility of that country. In fact you could also throw that charge at the Chantry for not criticising the abuse of power in that country, except of course the Chantry has abused its own power over other people so they are not really in a position to point fingers. Ethics does not seem something that is taught as part of general education anywhere in Thedas but seems dependent on the individual educator (see below) They ignore magic or the possibility of magic that doesn't fit their purposes. You have to remember that much of what we know about Tevinter has come through the filter of the Chantry scholars who report on them. Naturally they have a bias towards depicting everything as the actions of the "evil empire". As a case in point, look at blood magic. Originally it seemed as though there were no good purposes to which blood magic could be put. Then we discover from a codex of a letter written by a Tevinter Magister to her apprentice that blood magic can be used to heal serious disease. However, the Magister points out that the mage effecting the cure actual did so at the cost of his own life. She then questions if the saving of one life at the cost of another is sufficient justification for using blood magic. So this is an example of a powerful mage within Tevinter questioning the ethics of using a certain form of magic rather than simply either condoning or rejecting it out of hand and she is doing this in a debate with someone she is responsible for educating. I think you could equally argue that the southern Chantry controlled Circles ignored magic or the possibility of magic that didn't fit their purposes. The Annulment of the Dairsmund Circle was a case in point. There the female mages were being trained in the traditions of the seers, an ancient tradition that had stood Rivain well down the years. However, it was a form of magic involving spirits that was disapproved of by the Chantry and Templars, so when they discovered what they were doing, the members of this Circle were declared apostates and condemned to death. Magical knowledge in Thedas would be far better served if there was a free exchange and discussion of ideas between mages of all traditions but political and religious prejudices do not allow this.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 17, 2018 9:57:54 GMT
As a case in point, look at blood magic. Originally it seemed as though there were no good purposes to which blood magic could be put. Then we discover from a codex of a letter written by a Tevinter Magister to her apprentice that blood magic can be used to heal serious disease. However, the Magister points out that the mage effecting the cure actual did so at the cost of his own life. She then questions if the saving of one life at the cost of another is sufficient justification for using blood magic. This particular case is definitely a philosophical question that I don't think has a definite answer. I look at it like Isolde volunteering to sacrifice herself for Connor. She makes the choice with free will and full knowledge. Blood magic is just the tool in that scenario. Each person will look at it through the lens of their own values. But, yes, to your overall point, I think it is worth pointing out that there are Tevinter mages, even beyond characters we're intended to like, that consider and value ethics and how that applies to magic. However, I believe ethics are taught at home, learned through example from one's guardians, not as a lesson in school. By the time a mage even gets into the Circle at 6+, he will already be developing his moral compass. I still maintain that ethics has nothing to do with a magical education.
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Post by lilyonce on Nov 17, 2018 9:59:47 GMT
lilyonce To me the morality of those issues you raise doesn't have much to do with the quality of the education. I suspect we won't agree on that point as I'm looking at the holistic acquirement of knowledge and skills, apart from those sorts of considerations you raise. I don't think quality can be determined in a vacuum. Why do we think their magic is the highest quality if not because we admire what they use it for in the end? The Chantry probably doesn't go far enough in its restrictions because it has allowed the Circle to model itself and its magics on the Tevinter tradition which IMO isn't a good thing. If southern mages had rebuked Tevinter fully and focused on developing a magic of their own in opposition to Tevinter- I think that they could have righted all the wrongs of the Tevinter tradition, learned the true origin of demons, gotten to the root of possession and mostly eliminated it in their sphere. They already have the monastery thing going on- it all could have fit. Their magic would look fundamentally different as a culture if it didn't. They invented binding spirits and demons unlike the Avvar who honor them, for example. They value magic that bends nature to their will unlike the Dalish who have a nature magic tradition. Their orientation to the world has dictated their magic- for the worse IMO.
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Post by lilyonce on Nov 17, 2018 10:18:59 GMT
You could equally throw such an accusation at the University of Orlais and the nobility of that country. [snip] That was just a jab. Just a little jab. heh. Quite a few Tevinter mages and factions were in DAI. They seemed pretty "evil empire" to me. But that's one mage out of how many? And if the tradition had focused on healing magic from the beginning perhaps no blood sacrifice would have been necessary, leaving the ethics of it aside for now. The tradition developed blood magic and not magic of other kinds for reasons that can't be ignored IMO. The Chantry is still reacting to the legacy of Tevinter magic and it's hard to blame them for that since Tevinter is still there and still rotten. They do have a hard time seeing magic outside the paradigm in which Andraste fought it. I think they can make a legitimate case against some Rivani practices but they could be more culturally sensitive too.
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nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 17, 2018 10:29:51 GMT
lilyonce I didn't say their magic was the highest quality -- that's not what this is about. This is about the quality of the education in learning to use that magic. We have a fundamental disagreement about tools, training to use those tools, and the actions that are performed by those tools. I absolutely do believe it is possible to consider tools, and training in their use, without factoring the possible purposes toward which those tools can be turned. A trained, skilled artist might create wonderful landscapes, or he might create controversial political propaganda. Does the creation of political propaganda diminish his skill as an artist? I don't think it does. That skill exists independently of the purpose toward which the artwork is put, whether that is to spread hope and cheer, or fear and doubt. A person may be a wonderful and skilled writer, but write terrible and inflammatory things. For both of these, the technical skill is divorced from the content. I was recently required to read a book that I did not enjoy in the slightest, yet I will not deny that it was very well written by an author that knew his craft. You have given no evidence that they "ignore magic or the possibility of magic that doesn't fit their purposes," instead focusing on perceived morality and the outcomes of magic, which has nothing to do with learning. What does this have to do with the quality of their education? (Particularly compared to the southern Circle.) And what does this have to do with the quality of their education?
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3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 17, 2018 10:34:57 GMT
The tradition developed blood magic and not magic of other kinds for reasons that can't be ignored IMO. You don't know that. That might as well be Chantry propaganda. The codex Gervaise refers to doesn't say whether any other magic was attempted before blood magic. In addition, healing magic has its limitations; we don't know if it's possible to cure "wasting disease" with it*. And you know, I'm going to feel safe in suggesting that if Seraphinian had been able to use some other way to heal his love and still be with her afterward, he would have gone and done that.
In the case of Arl Eamon's poisoning, healing magics were tried, yet they failed to save him.
* This might be elaborated on more in the novels where magic is discussed, but I don't recall at the moment.
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