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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 1:11:28 GMT
... and who's to say that the Initiative wouldn't assign those pegged as being skeptical about AI to being the last ones to be awoken? Your mythical 20% could still be all asleep in cryo. My point is that the population inside the Initiative has been filtered, not only for the purposes of who got to come along (which broke down a bit when the timetable for departure was pushed up); but also when determining who would be woken up first. We were introduced to some aspects how that filtering may have failed to eliminate certain elements from the population entirely, but we were clearly told such filtering criteria existed. By what criteria had the population been filtered, the worst people in the galaxy first? They filtered out people who don't like AI right, while failing in every other conceivable measure of filtering. Giving us winners like Addison and Spender. But hey apparently only like 8 people out of thousands dislike AI, from a galaxy that mistrusts AI and recently had Geth attack the citadel and nearly wipe out a human colony.
It was the designers being preachy about transhumaism, not a realistic take on how the mass effect universe looked at AI and how that would be represented among the colonists. Why would Tann and Addison be filtered out of the general population. Just because Tann and Addison were unsuited for the jobs they were thrust into when the people meant for those positions were killed, doesn't mean they would not have been well suited to the positions they applied to fill.
However, the "trust of AI factor" is filtered before any testing for it needs to be done. If you were overtly distrustful of, say, rocket science, would you put your life savings down on taking a rocket ride to the moon?.. So why do you think there should be 20% people suspicious of AI willing to bet 600 years on one getting them to a new galaxy, particularly when they're unaware of an impending Reaper Invasion and don't think there is any real reason to leave the galaxy? I doubt it.
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Post by correctamundo on Sept 5, 2019 7:03:40 GMT
Why would Lexi and the others be upset with SAM being in Ryder's head. Most of what SAM is relaying to Ryder is through their private channel. In other words, the others don't know that SAM is telling Ryder whenever he leaves a heated area on Voeld, so why would they complain about it? Also, Lexi doesn't constantly gush about how great SAM is. She get's rather upset when SAM kills Ryder to free him/her from the Archon's trap. Drack certainly expresses strong feelings about not allowing them to put SAM into his head. Ryder's character is, by default, not anti-AI, probably because Alec and Ellen were building one. If Ryder was anti-AI, he/she would not have come along for the journey to Andromeda. That's also true for the majority of people on the voyage. If you didn't trust AI to some extent, you would not agree to go into 600 years of cryo while AI, working without any supervision, steered the ship. It should not be surprising then that anti-AI people within the Initiative are a "flat earther" minority viewpoint. The AI skeptics were left behind in the Milky Way. Because it's a AI, and it is in his head. Drak is the only one who showed any skepticism as you pointed out but I disagree that it would be rare. A lot pf people would want to go to Andromeda and might accept a AI as a needed risk since that is the only ship in town. A low ball estimate there should have been 20% of the population at least distrustful of AIs. And the player should have bee able to express more hostility to the idea, its not like he had to get along with his dad, so it being his dads project can be meaningless to them. Should? Do we actual surveys or studies too back that claim up? I would expect that AI distrust would disqualify your application for the Initiative. Unless you have some extraordinary qualifications, like Nakmor Drack.
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Post by AnDromedary on Sept 5, 2019 19:18:45 GMT
I would hate to loose SAM. To me, he was one of the cooler aspects of Andromeda. I like the fact that he was kinda your friend and helper and kinda cool but he was also a little creepy in how much Ryder ended up being dependent on him. After the ME trilogy, I thought it was a neat new look at AIs and trans-humanism in ME:A and they implemented it really well.
There is also the entire conspiracy theory with geth and how much AIs may have been involved with the Initiative in the first place. So far, SAM and Ryder were always on the same page, their goals were always perfectly aligned. But what if SAM were keeping secrets from Ryder, followed his own agenda to some extent. What if you get in a conflict with the AI that is in your head?
There are a lot of cool opportunities for stroy development in this. If ME:A2 were to happen indeed, I definitely would want SAM in there.
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Post by ahglock on Sept 5, 2019 23:28:36 GMT
Because it's a AI, and it is in his head. Drak is the only one who showed any skepticism as you pointed out but I disagree that it would be rare. A lot pf people would want to go to Andromeda and might accept a AI as a needed risk since that is the only ship in town. A low ball estimate there should have been 20% of the population at least distrustful of AIs. And the player should have bee able to express more hostility to the idea, its not like he had to get along with his dad, so it being his dads project can be meaningless to them. Should? Do we actual surveys or studies too back that claim up? I would expect that AI distrust would disqualify your application for the Initiative. Unless you have some extraordinary qualifications, like Nakmor Drack. They clearly weren’t choosy in who came along, so no I don’t think it’s credible that they filtered these people out. Though I guess you can make the argument that this was their main filter which is why you ended up with 40,000 totally incompetent boobs. You distrust AI so no go. You trust AI so even though you wouldn’t survive 5 minutes in a national park with a park ranger at your side you are good to go.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 5, 2019 23:42:20 GMT
I would hate to loose SAM. To me, he was one of the cooler aspects of Andromeda. I like the fact that he was kinda your friend and helper and kinda cool but he was also a little creepy in how much Ryder ended up being dependent on him. After the ME trilogy, I thought it was a neat new look at AIs and trans-humanism in ME:A and they implemented it really well. There is also the entire conspiracy theory with geth and how much AIs may have been involved with the Initiative in the first place. So far, SAM and Ryder were always on the same page, their goals were always perfectly aligned. But what if SAM were keeping secrets from Ryder, followed his own agenda to some extent. What if you get in a conflict with the AI that is in your head? There are a lot of cool opportunities for stroy development in this. If ME:A2 were to happen indeed, I definitely would want SAM in there. Me too. I thought Sam was cool,but I did miss Edi. I mean that voice lol.
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Post by burningcherry on Sept 6, 2019 0:27:08 GMT
Because it's a AI, and it is in his head. Drak is the only one who showed any skepticism as you pointed out but I disagree that it would be rare. A lot pf people would want to go to Andromeda and might accept a AI as a needed risk since that is the only ship in town. A low ball estimate there should have been 20% of the population at least distrustful of AIs. And the player should have bee able to express more hostility to the idea, its not like he had to get along with his dad, so it being his dads project can be meaningless to them. Should? Do we actual surveys or studies too back that claim up? I would expect that AI distrust would disqualify your application for the Initiative. Unless you have some extraordinary qualifications, like Nakmor Drack. Alec Ryder hid the full extent of his SAM's capabilities from everyone not to provoke a revolt. The Initiative's leadership was well aware of the public AI distrust and worked with these constraints.
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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Post by correctamundo on Sept 6, 2019 7:48:48 GMT
Should? Do we actual surveys or studies too back that claim up? I would expect that AI distrust would disqualify your application for the Initiative. Unless you have some extraordinary qualifications, like Nakmor Drack. They clearly weren’t choosy in who came along, so no I don’t think it’s credible that they filtered these people out. Though I guess you can make the argument that this was their main filter which is why you ended up with 40,000 totally incompetent boobs. You distrust AI so no go. You trust AI so even though you wouldn’t survive 5 minutes in a national park with a park ranger at your side you are good to go. So that's a no then?
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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Post by correctamundo on Sept 6, 2019 7:56:14 GMT
Should? Do we actual surveys or studies too back that claim up? I would expect that AI distrust would disqualify your application for the Initiative. Unless you have some extraordinary qualifications, like Nakmor Drack. Alec Ryder hid the full extent of his SAM's capabilities from everyone not to provoke a revolt. The Initiative's leadership was well aware of the public AI distrust and worked with these constraints. Yes OK he did hide the full potential of his own special SAM. But outside of that there is no AI without AI so being distrustful of AI seems counterproductive since you really have to trust AI fully within the AI.
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 6, 2019 8:15:01 GMT
I think there's still room to actually expand SAM's role in a possible MEA2.
"Pathfinder! Your crosshair is pointed at an enemy. Consider pulling the trigger now." "Pathfinder! According to my datalogs it's been 3hrs 26 mins 31 secs since you had to pee. That bush over there looks good." "Pathfinder! I detected a slight blush on the cheeks of the woman in front of you. Go check her dialogue for heart icons." "Pathf... ugh, that alien sudoku again. Sorry, you're on your own."
Just don't talk over the other voices in my head, they don't like that much.
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Post by burningcherry on Sept 6, 2019 8:49:14 GMT
Alec Ryder hid the full extent of his SAM's capabilities from everyone not to provoke a revolt. The Initiative's leadership was well aware of the public AI distrust and worked with these constraints. Yes OK he did hide the full potential of his own special SAM. But outside of that there is no AI without AI so being distrustful of AI seems counterproductive since you really have to trust AI fully within the AI. No because asking questions to people about this is practically admitting that you experimented on AI, which is punishable by homeworld occupation by the Council.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2019 9:38:10 GMT
Yes OK he did hide the full potential of his own special SAM. But outside of that there is no AI without AI so being distrustful of AI seems counterproductive since you really have to trust AI fully within the AI. No because asking questions to people about this is practically admitting that you experimented on AI, which is punishable by homeworld occupation by the Council. Within the game, however, almost everyone in the Initiative that Ryder meets seems to be aware that he/she has a SAM and/or that the other pathfinders have a SAM as well. Also, they could ask the question, along with others, without revealing that they're wanting people who favor AI's over those who don't. Asking the question does not admit anything until that is revealed. For all people answering the question would know, the Initiative could be looking for people who are very anti-AI. They could also get around it by asking them how they feel about the Quarians or the Geth... getting an impression as to the strength of their distrust of AI without asking them directly.
I question how effective is the punishment as well. Homeworld occupation by the Council? For at least the Asari and Turians and Salarians within the AI, they are already on the Council, so what would this sort of "occupation" look like? By the time the Initiative leaves, humans are also on the Council. The punishment seems pretty lame to me.
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Post by burningcherry on Sept 6, 2019 10:19:06 GMT
No because asking questions to people about this is practically admitting that you experimented on AI, which is punishable by homeworld occupation by the Council. Within the game, however, almost everyone in the Initiative that Ryder meets seems to be aware that he/she has a SAM and/or that the other pathfinders have a SAM as well. Also, they could ask the question, along with others, without revealing that they're wanting people who favor AI's over those who don't. Asking the question does not admit anything until that is revealed. For all people answering the question would know, the Initiative could be looking for people who are very anti-AI. They could also get around it by asking them how they feel about the Quarians or the Geth... getting an impression as to the strength of their distrust of AI without asking them directly. SAM and the geth are more different than humans and rachni so this specific questions would lead nowhere but the general idea makes some sense. Though, no one outside of the leadership needed to be aware that SAM is more than a Glyph-tier VI until they were out of the Council's reach. The truth is, humanity is back a second class citizen since ME2. The old Council races wouldn't do this to each other but they almost did this to humanity in 2165 and were stopped only by serious threats of armed resistance.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 6, 2019 17:05:09 GMT
No because asking questions to people about this is practically admitting that you experimented on AI, which is punishable by homeworld occupation by the Council. Within the game, however, almost everyone in the Initiative that Ryder meets seems to be aware that he/she has a SAM and/or that the other pathfinders have a SAM as well. Also, they could ask the question, along with others, without revealing that they're wanting people who favor AI's over those who don't. Asking the question does not admit anything until that is revealed. For all people answering the question would know, the Initiative could be looking for people who are very anti-AI. They could also get around it by asking them how they feel about the Quarians or the Geth... getting an impression as to the strength of their distrust of AI without asking them directly.
I question how effective is the punishment as well. Homeworld occupation by the Council? For at least the Asari and Turians and Salarians within the AI, they are already on the Council, so what would this sort of "occupation" look like? By the time the Initiative leaves, humans are also on the Council. The punishment seems pretty lame to me.
I think we need to re-examine the premise here. Would the AI need to do any screening at all? It's not like they were hiding their stance on AI. Their promotional video bragged about how SAM was integrated into Alec's body and mind. There's no secret. It looks like the Council decided that cracking down on people who were going to leave the galaxy anyway would not be a productive endeavor.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2019 18:29:57 GMT
Within the game, however, almost everyone in the Initiative that Ryder meets seems to be aware that he/she has a SAM and/or that the other pathfinders have a SAM as well. Also, they could ask the question, along with others, without revealing that they're wanting people who favor AI's over those who don't. Asking the question does not admit anything until that is revealed. For all people answering the question would know, the Initiative could be looking for people who are very anti-AI. They could also get around it by asking them how they feel about the Quarians or the Geth... getting an impression as to the strength of their distrust of AI without asking them directly.
I question how effective is the punishment as well. Homeworld occupation by the Council? For at least the Asari and Turians and Salarians within the AI, they are already on the Council, so what would this sort of "occupation" look like? By the time the Initiative leaves, humans are also on the Council. The punishment seems pretty lame to me.
I think we need to re-examine the premise here. Would the AI need to do any screening at all? It's not like they were hiding their stance on AI. Their promotional video bragged about how SAM was integrated into Alec's body and mind. There's no secret. It looks like the Council decided that cracking down on people who were going to leave the galaxy anyway would not be a productive endeavor. Well, that's my point... Anyone suspicious of AI and knowing that the Initiative was intending to use AI to both pilot the arcs to Andromeda and to work with the pathfinders would likely not apply to go to Andromeda in the first place. (Ref. my previous question about "rocket science" and a trip to the moon).
I can't say what the Council did not crack down on the Initiative... but perhaps they were just too busy trying to figure out ways to cover up the Reaper threat.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 11, 2019 16:44:37 GMT
I think we need to re-examine the premise here. Would the AI need to do any screening at all? It's not like they were hiding their stance on AI. Their promotional video bragged about how SAM was integrated into Alec's body and mind. There's no secret. It looks like the Council decided that cracking down on people who were going to leave the galaxy anyway would not be a productive endeavor. Well, that's my point... Anyone suspicious of AI and knowing that the Initiative was intending to use AI to both pilot the arcs to Andromeda and to work with the pathfinders would likely not apply to go to Andromeda in the first place. (Ref. my previous question about "rocket science" and a trip to the moon).
I can't say what the Council did not crack down on the Initiative... but perhaps they were just too busy trying to figure out ways to cover up the Reaper threat.
Yeah that's a little plot hole. They should have cracked down if they knew. We dont know that they did.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 17:00:45 GMT
Well, that's my point... Anyone suspicious of AI and knowing that the Initiative was intending to use AI to both pilot the arcs to Andromeda and to work with the pathfinders would likely not apply to go to Andromeda in the first place. (Ref. my previous question about "rocket science" and a trip to the moon).
I can't say what the Council did not crack down on the Initiative... but perhaps they were just too busy trying to figure out ways to cover up the Reaper threat.
Yeah that's a little plot hole. They should have cracked down if they knew. We dont know that they did. I don't see it as a major issue though. It depends who the Benefactor is. If the Benefactor is found to be a person with a huge amount pull with the Council, then it becomes just a matter of that person having enough money to grease the right people to get them to look away. For example, let's the Benefactor is Aria T'Loak. We saw in ME3 that she was able to very easily get the Asari councillor on the line and forego the "processing" requirements to stay on the Citadel.
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