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Post by 10k on Nov 25, 2018 1:09:01 GMT
The only thing I would be scared of, that makes me question an actual remake of Shepard's story is that frostbite engine and the lack of writing talent at BW. If they keep developing with that awful frostbite engine BW can keep making Andromeda sequels for all I care. The characters in Andromeda looked like sims characters.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 25, 2018 1:53:28 GMT
Anything that happened in the Milky Way can be "over-written" by a subsequent catastrophic event that occurred in the 600 years we've been away. This isn't really about your post so much as using it as a launching point. I don't see this as what people want. People want to continue the story of Shepard. By advancing the MW story 600 years, the galaxy will be so different that we may as well be in Andromeda. Everyone we know will be dead except maybe Liara. If they build a game around her I'm done for good. I'll pass on the passage of time as a "fix". It'll create more problems than it solves.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Nov 25, 2018 5:03:16 GMT
There is but to many people would get but hurt over it so no. Fuck 'em I say! Fuck 'em and do a thing. A unique thing. Sound advice.
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Post by 10k on Nov 25, 2018 5:49:18 GMT
This has been brought up before. Problem is, as I see it, that we'll be outright getting a remake of the MET. Once you open the door to things not being concrete, we may as well throw out everything. The trilogy itself is no longer canon since every detail is up for grabs. I know a lot of people are in for a remake but understand that that's what you're asking for. If throwing the baby out with the bath water gets us away from Andromeda, I'm all for it. A remake with concrete lore is what we need. At the very least start again beginning with ME1. ME1 laid down the foundation begin again with that.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Nov 25, 2018 6:07:02 GMT
It's called making Star Gazer canon and the little midget soldier guy goes on to find the real story (remake), which you the player then enjoy playing through after he touches a beacon and it gives him visions from the past. This has been brought up before. Problem is, as I see it, that we'll be outright getting a remake of the MET. Once you open the door to things not being concrete, we may as well throw out everything. The trilogy itself is no longer canon since every detail is up for grabs. I know a lot of people are in for a remake but understand that that's what you're asking for. I think there's confusion here and I understand why I'll explain using what I hope to be better language. When I say a remake I mean more of a redo and in no way do I mean a rewrite. What I would do is focus in on the vagueness of the statement from Stargazer and the conversation that was had. "Did that all really happen?" "Yes" "But...." The most important parts I think are that: It all happened. But over time crucial details were lost. So we have a Spectre who led several multispecies missions against the Reaper threat and in the end was successful because of 'space magic' This gives BioEAre a chance to say: The Reapers are too all powerful. The Protheans angle lore wise is a mess. The crucibles sudden appearance. The so called plothole involving Saren needing the conduit. Incongruence between ME1 and ME2 in terms of RPG elements. The ending explanation is a mess. Etc etc.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Nov 25, 2018 6:08:33 GMT
This has been brought up before. Problem is, as I see it, that we'll be outright getting a remake of the MET. Once you open the door to things not being concrete, we may as well throw out everything. The trilogy itself is no longer canon since every detail is up for grabs. I know a lot of people are in for a remake but understand that that's what you're asking for. I think there's confusion here and I understand why I'll explain using what I hope to be better language. When I say a remake I mean more of a redo and in no way do I mean a rewrite. What I would do is focus in on the vagueness of the statement from Stargazer and the conversation that was had. "Did that all really happen?" "Yes" "But...." The most important parts I think are that: It all happened. But over time crucial details were lost. So we have a Spectre who led several multispecies missions against the Reaper threat and in the end was successful because of 'space magic' This gives BioEAre a chance to say: The Reapers are too all powerful. The Protheans angle lore wise is a mess. The crucibles sudden appearance can be worked on. The so called plothole involving Saren needing the conduit can be better explained. Incongruence between ME1 and ME2 in terms of RPG elements. The ending explanation is a mess. Etc etc.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2018 8:55:23 GMT
Anything that happened in the Milky Way can be "over-written" by a subsequent catastrophic event that occurred in the 600 years we've been away. This isn't really about your post so much as using it as a launching point. I don't see this as what people want. People want to continue the story of Shepard. By advancing the MW story 600 years, the galaxy will be so different that we may as well be in Andromeda. Everyone we know will be dead except maybe Liara. If they build a game around her I'm done for good. I'll pass on the passage of time as a "fix". It'll create more problems than it solves. There can still be new stories about Shepard woven into the information Ryder (or another PC) find about what happened in the Milky Way 600 years (or 1200 years, depending on our method of returning)... side prequel stories that we haven't been told yet. Heck, we could even "flashback" inside, say, a DLC or two and play again as Shepard.
Moving forward by allowing for the trip to Andromeda and back and having something else bring the galaxy back to a single state simply gets around the multiple ending. It let's the multiple endings all continue to be possibilities, which is, IMHO, better that choosing one canon that alienates anyone who did not choose that particular ending. It allows the game to even recognize a player choice of ending by having the wording in whatever data logs are found to change to reflect the various endings available, without a huge investment to create a multiple-state Milky Way.
I know what people want; but I don't think they're using enough imagination here. They're too embroiled in fighting for the redo of ME3's endings that they've been fighting for 6 years now. There are ways to just move the story forward and still give them "more Shepard." Andromeda is a great setup for such a thing. I see no reason not to use it. Ryder can change... even if Ryder is left in the game, his/her personality can change simply by having the twins grow up a little. They can be more "Shepard-like" in a heartbeat. We can get back to the Milky Way and Earth and all of that... and the future can be connected to the past. It's possible.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 25, 2018 8:57:55 GMT
@ zipzap2000 & dmc001: Looks like you two don't disagree on what will happen, but do on its desirability. The OT wouldn't be canon anymore in any useful sense.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 25, 2018 9:01:41 GMT
Moving forward by allowing for the trip to Andromeda and back and having something else bring the galaxy back to a single state simply gets around the multiple ending. It let's the multiple endings all continue to be possibilities exist, which is, IMHO, better that choosing one canon that alienates anyone who did not choose that particular ending. It allows the game to even recognize a player choice of ending by having the wording in whatever data logs are found to change to reflect the various endings available, without a huge investment to create a multiple-state Milky Way I'd need to see a concrete proposal for the "something else."Most of the ones I've heard either outright suck in themselves, or their future histories just aren't believable. Not really a knock on the people who proposed them, since they're trying to bridge gaps which weren't meant to be bridged.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2018 9:14:51 GMT
Moving forward by allowing for the trip to Andromeda and back and having something else bring the galaxy back to a single state simply gets around the multiple ending. It let's the multiple endings all continue to be possibilities exist, which is, IMHO, better that choosing one canon that alienates anyone who did not choose that particular ending. It allows the game to even recognize a player choice of ending by having the wording in whatever data logs are found to change to reflect the various endings available, without a huge investment to create a multiple-state Milky Way I'd need to see a concrete proposal for the "something else."Most of the ones I've heard either outright suck in themselves, or their future histories just aren't believable. Not really a knock on the people who proposed them, since they're trying to bridge gaps which weren't meant to be bridged. How about, say, the yahg advancing and eventually overrunning the galaxy regardless of what Shepard did and fighting a great war in that results in annihilation of the old MW species (humans, quarians, asari, turians, etc.) so that we can't if they were synthesized or not (or perhaps the game could recognize the ending by finding an occasional survivor of the old species that would appear with glowing green eyes only if synthesis was chosen). The MW we return to though is mostly yahg (who were, due to some difference in their genetics, immune to synthesis) and newer species that emerged and advanced in that 600 to 1200 year period we've been gone... perhaps some who want to overthrow the yahg and who could become new alien allies. Perhaps the difference in the yahg could be as simple as "they weren't ready" to accept synthesis... and the reason synthesis failed in the past is that genes that are not ready to accept the merger simply reject the "transplant."
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 25, 2018 9:36:36 GMT
That's one I'd file under "awful." It works -- it would even work for Refuse, no? -- but the cost in meaninglessness for everything in the OT strikes me as being not worth paying.
What would we actually gain by doing this? The MW's now just as alien as Andromeda, if not more so. So why go back?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2018 10:33:17 GMT
That's one I'd file under "awful." It works -- it would even work for Refuse, no? -- but the cost in meaninglessness for everything in the OT strikes me as being not worth paying. What would we actually gain by doing this? The MW's now just as alien as Andromeda, if not more so. So why go back? How does thist make everything in the OT meaningless? Making it not exist by redoing the OT in a different way with a different ending ist what makes the OT completely meaningless. This makes the OT and Shepard, however each of us created/played him/her, part of the history of the galaxy going forward. The only thing it doesn't do is make that history animated within the present story (whenever it takes place). It acknowledges it instead in words inside data logs. It utilizes species and images already in the OT. The yahg, who go nowhere really in the OT, become the next super-enemy, since in any ending except destroy, they would have to have destroyed the Reapers themselves before taking over the galaxy... maybe they allied with Leviathan. It also works for refuse because the yahg are destined to survive into the next cycle anyways. If destroy, the yahg go to war against the humans and other Milky Way species and take over the galaxy from them..
Also, it's not my job to actually write the exact story going forward... and I know whatever suggestion people come up with is just going to get torn apart because the bottom line here is that portions of this fan base are bent on one thing and one thing only... Bioware screwed up the ending to ME3, so they need to fix it. It's a fan base unwilling to move forward, period. I also bet that if a redo of ME3 is done by anyone... a number of the fans still won't be happy with it. The new trend is to basically rip any new game apart, AFAICS.
The fact is Bioware already chose their way around the ME3 multiple ending problem - they wrote Andromeda. Beyond and through Andromeda... anything is possible to come from them. They're writing the story, not us.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 25, 2018 12:32:57 GMT
Anything that happened in the Milky Way can be "over-written" by a subsequent catastrophic event that occurred in the 600 years we've been away. This isn't really about your post so much as using it as a launching point. I don't see this as what people want. People want to continue the story of Shepard. By advancing the MW story 600 years, the galaxy will be so different that we may as well be in Andromeda. Everyone we know will be dead except maybe Liara. If they build a game around her I'm done for good. I'll pass on the passage of time as a "fix". It'll create more problems than it solves. I like to continue Shepard's story. It wouldn't be hard to do. If not, I don't have a problem with a new character.
I recall a poster mentioning he would make destroy the ending, move the game about 600 years in the future with T'soni making an apppearance. What purpose would she have in the game? For me, if a game takes place 600 years after the events of ME3, I want no one from the trilogy making any appearance. If Bioware does have the asari make an appearance then I want them to acknowledge my playthrough that Harbinger vaporized her on the beam run so that she can't make any appearance. I do agree that if they make a game that puts the asari front and center, it's likely I wouldn't get the game.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 25, 2018 20:50:58 GMT
At this point, I'd settle for no Liara ever again, not even in a message. Her dialogue in MEA is actually terrible. Less what she said and more the way she spoke. It didn't seem like a real person was speaking those words.
As I said, though, what purpose is there in returning to the MW if we have none of the characters we loved?
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 26, 2018 0:13:22 GMT
That's one I'd file under "awful." It works -- it would even work for Refuse, no? -- but the cost in meaninglessness for everything in the OT strikes me as being not worth paying. What would we actually gain by doing this? The MW's now just as alien as Andromeda, if not more so. So why go back? How does thist make everything in the OT meaningless? Making it not exist by redoing the OT in a different way with a different ending ist what makes the OT completely meaningless. This makes the OT and Shepard, however each of us created/played him/her, part of the history of the galaxy going forward. If nothing Shepard did changed anything of substance, then why should I care that my various Shepards actually existed in this world?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2018 0:31:05 GMT
How does thist make everything in the OT meaningless? Making it not exist by redoing the OT in a different way with a different ending ist what makes the OT completely meaningless. This makes the OT and Shepard, however each of us created/played him/her, part of the history of the galaxy going forward. If nothing Shepard did changed anything of substance, then why should I care that my various Shepards actually existed in this world? Who said what Shepard did wouldn't have substance. It would certainly have more substance than if they remake the Trilogy and completely wipe 3 of 4 ending choices right out of the history or even write out 4 of 4 ending choices.
With this, each ending could be acknowledged... just not "in your face" visually and it would just be that time erased the visual physical evidence of it. Which happens in most things as time goes by anyways. Nothing is forever; that's why we have archaeology. The player's choice can be referenced in a sequel fairly cheaply since what you find in the form of records and artifacts can change to reflect the endings you chose.
I'd be just as happy to just continue on in Andromeda and continue with the story they started in the first game there, with Ryder as the protag. I liked the game and would love to see it continue. I believe though that they planned for us to go back eventually to the Milky Way... Mac Walters said as much in an interview. I think they should continue with their story as they planned it and ignore the likes of us who have likely never written an award-winning game trying to tell them how to write theirs.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 27, 2018 1:24:43 GMT
IMHO, better that choosing one canon that alienates anyone who did not choose that particular ending. And that is why any attempt beyond dream world of people on forums will always fail. But hurt children who throw a tantrum that their ending or their choices might not have been picked to be the much needed foundation for the next story to be build on. I'm a Synthesis ending person myself but if they chose a Destroy ending to go with I wouldn't complain.
Narcissism. Pure grade A uncut narcissism of the players will always be the noose around this series and any potential future parts of it. The desperate need for validation of game choices by requiring the game developers to go with what you choose and getting upset if they choose anything different is something I will never understand. Nor do I think I will ever be capable of understanding anymore then I a man would be capable of understanding what it is like to be a woman.
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Post by 10k on Nov 27, 2018 1:50:04 GMT
IMHO, better that choosing one canon that alienates anyone who did not choose that particular ending. And that is why any attempt beyond dream world of people on forums will always fail. But hurt children who throw a tantrum that their ending or their choices might not have been picked to be the much needed foundation for the next story to be build on. I'm a Synthesis ending person myself but if they chose a Destroy ending to go with I wouldn't complain.
Narcissism. Pure grade A uncut narcissism of the players will always be the noose around this series and any potential future parts of it. The desperate need for validation of game choices by requiring the game developers to go with what you choose and getting upset if they choose anything different is something I will never understand. Nor do I think I will ever be capable of understanding anymore then I a man would be capable of understanding what it is like to be a woman.
Well they alienated their fan base before, so picking a canon ending shouldn't be a problem for BW. They alienated some of their fan base when they didn't redo the ending of ME3 and spouted artistic integrity, they alienated some of their fan base by going to Andromeda instead of staying in the MW, and they alienated some of their fanbase by developing anthem. If they chose a canon to the ME3 ending, alienating their fanbase is not a problem for BW.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 27, 2018 1:59:14 GMT
And that is why any attempt beyond dream world of people on forums will always fail. But hurt children who throw a tantrum that their ending or their choices might not have been picked to be the much needed foundation for the next story to be build on. I'm a Synthesis ending person myself but if they chose a Destroy ending to go with I wouldn't complain.
Narcissism. Pure grade A uncut narcissism of the players will always be the noose around this series and any potential future parts of it. The desperate need for validation of game choices by requiring the game developers to go with what you choose and getting upset if they choose anything different is something I will never understand. Nor do I think I will ever be capable of understanding anymore then I a man would be capable of understanding what it is like to be a woman.
Well they alienated their fan base before, so picking a canon ending shouldn't be a problem for BW. They alienated some of their fan base when they didn't redo the ending of ME3 and spouted artistic integrity, they alienated some of their fan base by going to Andromeda instead of staying in the MW, and they alienated some of their fanbase by developing anthem. If they chose a canon to the ME3 ending, alienating their fanbase is not a problem for BW. Yea those same people that complain about ME3's ending and especially those people who throw fits about the artistic integrity are also the people who when others try to explain how the ending worked close their eyes and stuff their fingers in their ears and refuse to even consider a differing opinion. So if BioWare had to alienate a portion of the fan base I would personally choose that group in a heart beat. Because that is the group that will throw the biggest tantrum if things are just slightly off from what they expect and want. That group of players always tend to be the loud minority that causes problems for the rest of players when their ear piercing screaming that the game wasn't 100% tailored to their personal expectations causes the game developers undue trouble, hesitation and causes a reduction in the quality of the next game in the desperate attempt to avoid bad press from the screaming children.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 2:00:10 GMT
IMHO, better that choosing one canon that alienates anyone who did not choose that particular ending. And that is why any attempt beyond dream world of people on forums will always fail. But hurt children who throw a tantrum that their ending or their choices might not have been picked to be the much needed foundation for the next story to be build on. I'm a Synthesis ending person myself but if they chose a Destroy ending to go with I wouldn't complain.
Narcissism. Pure grade A uncut narcissism of the players will always be the noose around this series and any potential future parts of it. The desperate need for validation of game choices by requiring the game developers to go with what you choose and getting upset if they choose anything different is something I will never understand. Nor do I think I will ever be capable of understanding anymore then I a man would be capable of understanding what it is like to be a woman.
I don't suppose it helps that I made a typo in the part you quoted. It should read "IMHO better than choosing one canon. In principle, I really respect Bioware for not welching out on a choice they gave us but instead writing a sequel game that still preserves all of those endings. I'm not going to a tantrum if they opt to choose a canon. It's their choice to make, but I will lose some respect for them... Specifically, the respect that they gained by not reneging on those choices. I think that's appropriate.
What ending I prefer is, IMO, totally irrelevant to the discussion. Different people did prefer different endings. No ending is unanimously the preference. There may be a majority that prefer the destroy ending, but I don't think that should give them the right to bully Bioware to renege on the other choices.
I also believe that they should stand by their chosen method for getting around the issue. It's done... we ARE beyond the problem and we should just move forward. That Andromeda itself was imperfect is again, irrelevant. Fans constantly requesting do-overs because they didn't like this or that about the games that have already been written does not get us anything new and exciting... it just mires us down into playing the same old games over and over again in slightly revised forms. What I really want is for the franchise to now move forward from where it's at... which is in Andromeda with the Initiative now in possession of Meridian. I want to explore something new... not redo anything. Bioware had a story planned that got around the ME3 endings when they wrote ME:A and a plan for future games. I think they should stick with THEIR plan... whatever it was.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 2:11:01 GMT
And that is why any attempt beyond dream world of people on forums will always fail. But hurt children who throw a tantrum that their ending or their choices might not have been picked to be the much needed foundation for the next story to be build on. I'm a Synthesis ending person myself but if they chose a Destroy ending to go with I wouldn't complain.
Narcissism. Pure grade A uncut narcissism of the players will always be the noose around this series and any potential future parts of it. The desperate need for validation of game choices by requiring the game developers to go with what you choose and getting upset if they choose anything different is something I will never understand. Nor do I think I will ever be capable of understanding anymore then I a man would be capable of understanding what it is like to be a woman.
Well they alienated their fan base before, so picking a canon ending shouldn't be a problem for BW. They alienated some of their fan base when they didn't redo the ending of ME3 and spouted artistic integrity, they alienated some of their fan base by going to Andromeda instead of staying in the MW, and they alienated some of their fanbase by developing anthem. If they chose a canon to the ME3 ending, alienating their fanbase is not a problem for BW. Why do you think it's OK for them to alienate their fans by declaring a canon but not OK for them to alienate their fans by simply telling them they're sticking with the plan they devised for getting around the endings issue when they started ME:A?
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Post by 10k on Nov 27, 2018 2:18:46 GMT
Why do you think it's OK for them to alienate their fans by declaring a canon but not OK for them to alienate their fans by simply telling them they're sticking with the plan they devised for getting around the endings issue when they started ME:A? Personally I don't care if they do or don't alienate parts of their fan base. BW is a company first and foremost, they don't care what their fan base think to begin with. They care only about what's in my wallet. If BW decides to continue Andromeda and never go back to the MW and alienate fans like me, then I won't buy their games. Is as easy as that. They can do what they will, I don't care.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 2:24:33 GMT
Why do you think it's OK for them to alienate their fans by declaring a canon but not OK for them to alienate their fans by simply telling them they're sticking with the plan they devised for getting around the endings issue when they started ME:A? Personally I don't care if they do or don't alienate parts of their fan base. BW is a company first and foremost, they don't care what their fan base think to begin with. They care only about what's in my wallet. If BW decides to continue Andromeda and never go back to the MW and alienate fans like me, then I won't buy their games. Is as easy as that. They can do what they will, I don't care. ... and if it's an amazing new game?
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Post by 10k on Nov 27, 2018 2:32:54 GMT
Personally I don't care if they do or don't alienate parts of their fan base. BW is a company first and foremost, they don't care what their fan base think to begin with. They care only about what's in my wallet. If BW decides to continue Andromeda and never go back to the MW and alienate fans like me, then I won't buy their games. Is as easy as that. They can do what they will, I don't care. ... and if it's an amazing new game? With Mr Ryder who is a big Push over who doesn't know how to assert himself? With a open-world that has little to no content to participate in? With a crew who is never serious and who crack jokes all the damn time? Yeah if it's an amazing game I'll shit my pants.
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ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Nov 27, 2018 2:34:08 GMT
That's one I'd file under "awful." It works -- it would even work for Refuse, no? -- but the cost in meaninglessness for everything in the OT strikes me as being not worth paying. What would we actually gain by doing this? The MW's now just as alien as Andromeda, if not more so. So why go back? How does thist make everything in the OT meaningless? Making it not exist by redoing the OT in a different way with a different ending ist what makes the OT completely meaningless. This makes the OT and Shepard, however each of us created/played him/her, part of the history of the galaxy going forward. The only thing it doesn't do is make that history animated within the present story (whenever it takes place). It acknowledges it instead in words inside data logs. It utilizes species and images already in the OT. The yahg, who go nowhere really in the OT, become the next super-enemy, since in any ending except destroy, they would have to have destroyed the Reapers themselves before taking over the galaxy... maybe they allied with Leviathan. It also works for refuse because the yahg are destined to survive into the next cycle anyways. If destroy, the yahg go to war against the humans and other Milky Way species and take over the galaxy from them..
Also, it's not my job to actually write the exact story going forward... and I know whatever suggestion people come up with is just going to get torn apart because the bottom line here is that portions of this fan base are bent on one thing and one thing only... Bioware screwed up the ending to ME3, so they need to fix it. It's a fan base unwilling to move forward, period. I also bet that if a redo of ME3 is done by anyone... a number of the fans still won't be happy with it. The new trend is to basically rip any new game apart, AFAICS.
The fact is Bioware already chose their way around the ME3 multiple ending problem - they wrote Andromeda. Beyond and through Andromeda... anything is possible to come from them. They're writing the story, not us.
While I didn't like your particular example mainly because I don;t like the yahg I think the idea behind it is accurate. All the endings can be blended into the same end story with enough time with codex entries and dialogue giving you nods to your past choices, whether everyone is dead by the Yahg or its a recovering galaxy with enough time your choice is just a footnote in history which can all have the same end point. And yes segments of the fan base will never accept it and tear it apart no matter what the idea is.
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