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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 27, 2018 4:04:47 GMT
And that is why any attempt beyond dream world of people on forums will always fail. But hurt children who throw a tantrum that their ending or their choices might not have been picked to be the much needed foundation for the next story to be build on. I'm a Synthesis ending person myself but if they chose a Destroy ending to go with I wouldn't complain. Narcissism. Pure grade A uncut narcissism of the players will always be the noose around this series and any potential future parts of it. The desperate need for validation of game choices by requiring the game developers to go with what you choose and getting upset if they choose anything different is something I will never understand. Nor do I think I will ever be capable of understanding anymore then I a man would be capable of understanding what it is like to be a woman.
I don't suppose it helps that I made a typo in the part you quoted. It should read "IMHO better than choosing one canon. In principle, I really respect Bioware for not welching out on a choice they gave us but instead writing a sequel game that still preserves all of those endings. I'm not going to a tantrum if they opt to choose a canon. It's their choice to make, but I will lose some respect for them... Specifically, the respect that they gained by not reneging on those choices. I think that's appropriate. What ending I prefer is, IMO, totally irrelevant to the discussion. Different people did prefer different endings. No ending is unanimously the preference. There may be a majority that prefer the destroy ending, but I don't think that should give them the right to bully Bioware to renege on the other choices. I also believe that they should stand by their chosen method for getting around the issue. It's done... we ARE beyond the problem and we should just move forward. That Andromeda itself was imperfect is again, irrelevant. Fans constantly requesting do-overs because they didn't like this or that about the games that have already been written does not get us anything new and exciting... it just mires us down into playing the same old games over and over again in slightly revised forms. What I really want is for the franchise to now move forward from where it's at... which is in Andromeda with the Initiative now in possession of Meridian. I want to explore something new... not redo anything. Bioware had a story planned that got around the ME3 endings when they wrote ME:A and a plan for future games. I think they should stick with THEIR plan... whatever it was.
BioWare doesn't renege on any choice. Your choices will always be valid for you and your choices will always be correct for you. BioWare picking specific path out of the dozens of possible paths to build a strong foundation on for the next series or to build on that strong foundation a more coherent story line doesn't negate a single choice you made. If you think it does then that is almost literally the video game equivalent of declaring your parent's don't love you anymore because they are deciding to have a second child. And because of BioWare's fear to upset the players they build Andromeda's foundation on sand. Having so little confidence in it they didn't even bother to think of DLC for the game. A series build on sand because they are so desperate not to upset the loud one creates problems. Those problems will now follow any continuation of Andromeda much in the same way the lack of a fully planned out story line effected the OT across the entire series. The entire Andromeda Initiative is Cerberus going from a small Black Ops unit to a massive galactic spy agency with more funding and troops then most nations, while being able to take the little charred month long dead remains of someone and bringing them back to life perfectly all over again. Seriously a mysterious benefactor knows about the Reaper threat years before Shepard learns about it and so single handily bank rolls the entire Andromeda Initiative. They create super advanced tech to allow a ship to travel 600 years, master stasis technology which didn't exist before and a guy almost literally build the AI SAM in his garage. And even more he pushed technology to allow a neural interface with said AI pushing that shit into Synthesis ending level tech advancements. Then most problems with Kett at least are because none of the ships are armed. Because why would a galaxy who experienced 2 (3 if you count Geth Uprising) large scale wars that nearly resulting the extinction of a single or multiple races bother to arm ships. Particularly when that benefactor wanted the Andromeda Initiative to be the back up for the Reaper Invasion. This is literally like building a car but forgetting to put breaks in it. It is literally creating the same problem as with the Reapers were we are again reduced to throwing stones against tanks. Only this case it isn't because one is millions of years more advanced it is just that one literally has tanks and the other side literally only has stones to throw. Pretty sure the Alliance First Fleet alone would have wiped the Kett from the Cluster in a single day.
Stuff like this creates problems down the road because how do you deal with the Kett when the Initiative isn't armed? When it would take decades to build a fleet of ships to be able to rival what the Kett Empire would have build up over the centuries they have existed. How will they travel the galaxy now given every ship will need to outfitted with the new ME engines and stasis pods because they don't have Relays and don't know how to build them. And that isn't counting how long it would take for populations to grow besides maybe Salarians. Kett could easily be sending a massive Fleet that could take a decade to reach the Cluster but in that time they would be able to out number and more importantly out gun the Andromeda initiative and easily wipe them out with superior force. Because the garden worlds are not build yet and pretty sure not everyone is even out of stasis yet by the end of ME:A. You would have to jump decades if not more into the future to have the Initiative build up enough to actually deal with the Kett who would have to politely send one small group of ships at a time towards the Initiative.
Why do you think it's OK for them to alienate their fans by declaring a canon but not OK for them to alienate their fans by simply telling them they're sticking with the plan they devised for getting around the endings issue when they started ME:A? Because one would allow them to lay the solid foundations for expanding the galaxy and story in a continuation of that preexisting galaxy. The other one bends it's self into a pretzel to try and avoid that creating inconsistencies and massive logical plot holes beyond what was remotely needed to justify it. You tell me that 100 years after the end of the Reaper War were the Destroy ending was selected that the galaxy has rebuild and salvaged technology from the Reapers. Pushing technology a head by hundreds of years. Allowing them to build the technology of the Arks, Nexus, stasis tech and SAM. Who working together in the unity build during the war to plan and prepare the Nexus and Arks to be sent off to try and explore the Andromeda Galaxy full set up for all possible interactions (Including being armed increase of hostile threats). That at least makes logical sense. How ever to avoid offending those people they instead just throw all that stuff into a time frame that makes no sense and has this benefactor know about the Reaper threat before they knew it was the Reapers and manage to bank roll it and send the Initiative to Andromeda with all the preparation of those aliens from the movie Signs. You know those ones that were fatally weak against water. The very thing that makes up 80% of our planet, falls from the sky and these beings who mastered interstellar travel was walking around butt ass naked on the most hostile possible planet for them.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Nov 27, 2018 5:28:41 GMT
@ zipzap2000 & dmc001: Looks like you two don't disagree on what will happen, but do on its desirability. The OT wouldn't be canon anymore in any useful sense. I think only certain aspects of the OT should be canon. Sovereign defeated. Collectors defeated Reapers defeatd and relays broken in some form. It would be seriously cool if you found out certain "truths" similar witcher decisions with historical context example: Rana Thanoptis really did blow up Asari high command. But that she'd actually been a commando and not a scientist and that she had actually become indoctrinated helping Shepard. Over time the story changed to become more ambiguous shifting blame toward the commander. Etc etc.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 14:29:07 GMT
I don't suppose it helps that I made a typo in the part you quoted. It should read "IMHO better than choosing one canon. In principle, I really respect Bioware for not welching out on a choice they gave us but instead writing a sequel game that still preserves all of those endings. I'm not going to a tantrum if they opt to choose a canon. It's their choice to make, but I will lose some respect for them... Specifically, the respect that they gained by not reneging on those choices. I think that's appropriate. What ending I prefer is, IMO, totally irrelevant to the discussion. Different people did prefer different endings. No ending is unanimously the preference. There may be a majority that prefer the destroy ending, but I don't think that should give them the right to bully Bioware to renege on the other choices. I also believe that they should stand by their chosen method for getting around the issue. It's done... we ARE beyond the problem and we should just move forward. That Andromeda itself was imperfect is again, irrelevant. Fans constantly requesting do-overs because they didn't like this or that about the games that have already been written does not get us anything new and exciting... it just mires us down into playing the same old games over and over again in slightly revised forms. What I really want is for the franchise to now move forward from where it's at... which is in Andromeda with the Initiative now in possession of Meridian. I want to explore something new... not redo anything. Bioware had a story planned that got around the ME3 endings when they wrote ME:A and a plan for future games. I think they should stick with THEIR plan... whatever it was.
BioWare doesn't renege on any choice. Your choices will always be valid for you and your choices will always be correct for you. BioWare picking specific path out of the dozens of possible paths to build a strong foundation on for the next series or to build on that strong foundation a more coherent story line doesn't negate a single choice you made. If you think it does then that is almost literally the video game equivalent of declaring your parent's don't love you anymore because they are deciding to have a second child. And because of BioWare's fear to upset the players they build Andromeda's foundation on sand. Having so little confidence in it they didn't even bother to think of DLC for the game. A series build on sand because they are so desperate not to upset the loud one creates problems. Those problems will now follow any continuation of Andromeda much in the same way the lack of a fully planned out story line effected the OT across the entire series. The entire Andromeda Initiative is Cerberus going from a small Black Ops unit to a massive galactic spy agency with more funding and troops then most nations, while being able to take the little charred month long dead remains of someone and bringing them back to life perfectly all over again. Seriously a mysterious benefactor knows about the Reaper threat years before Shepard learns about it and so single handily bank rolls the entire Andromeda Initiative. They create super advanced tech to allow a ship to travel 600 years, master stasis technology which didn't exist before and a guy almost literally build the AI SAM in his garage. And even more he pushed technology to allow a neural interface with said AI pushing that shit into Synthesis ending level tech advancements. Then most problems with Kett at least are because none of the ships are armed. Because why would a galaxy who experienced 2 (3 if you count Geth Uprising) large scale wars that nearly resulting the extinction of a single or multiple races bother to arm ships. Particularly when that benefactor wanted the Andromeda Initiative to be the back up for the Reaper Invasion. This is literally like building a car but forgetting to put breaks in it. It is literally creating the same problem as with the Reapers were we are again reduced to throwing stones against tanks. Only this case it isn't because one is millions of years more advanced it is just that one literally has tanks and the other side literally only has stones to throw. Pretty sure the Alliance First Fleet alone would have wiped the Kett from the Cluster in a single day.
Stuff like this creates problems down the road because how do you deal with the Kett when the Initiative isn't armed? When it would take decades to build a fleet of ships to be able to rival what the Kett Empire would have build up over the centuries they have existed. How will they travel the galaxy now given every ship will need to outfitted with the new ME engines and stasis pods because they don't have Relays and don't know how to build them. And that isn't counting how long it would take for populations to grow besides maybe Salarians. Kett could easily be sending a massive Fleet that could take a decade to reach the Cluster but in that time they would be able to out number and more importantly out gun the Andromeda initiative and easily wipe them out with superior force. Because the garden worlds are not build yet and pretty sure not everyone is even out of stasis yet by the end of ME:A. You would have to jump decades if not more into the future to have the Initiative build up enough to actually deal with the Kett who would have to politely send one small group of ships at a time towards the Initiative.
Why do you think it's OK for them to alienate their fans by declaring a canon but not OK for them to alienate their fans by simply telling them they're sticking with the plan they devised for getting around the endings issue when they started ME:A? Because one would allow them to lay the solid foundations for expanding the galaxy and story in a continuation of that preexisting galaxy. The other one bends it's self into a pretzel to try and avoid that creating inconsistencies and massive logical plot holes beyond what was remotely needed to justify it. You tell me that 100 years after the end of the Reaper War were the Destroy ending was selected that the galaxy has rebuild and salvaged technology from the Reapers. Pushing technology a head by hundreds of years. Allowing them to build the technology of the Arks, Nexus, stasis tech and SAM. Who working together in the unity build during the war to plan and prepare the Nexus and Arks to be sent off to try and explore the Andromeda Galaxy full set up for all possible interactions (Including being armed increase of hostile threats). That at least makes logical sense. How ever to avoid offending those people they instead just throw all that stuff into a time frame that makes no sense and has this benefactor know about the Reaper threat before they knew it was the Reapers and manage to bank roll it and send the Initiative to Andromeda with all the preparation of those aliens from the movie Signs. You know those ones that were fatally weak against water. The very thing that makes up 80% of our planet, falls from the sky and these beings who mastered interstellar travel was walking around butt ass naked on the most hostile possible planet for them. Sorry, I don't see it that way. A path not chosen by the devs as canon ceases to exist in the history of that universe. It becomes no longer a possible decision for the PC to have made going forward. Simple as that. There's none of this "valid for you" crap when it comes to canon lore. They have a solid foundation now. A group went to Andromeda and, therefore, were not affected by whatever happened in the Milky Way. That's the canon that's valid right now. It's just the incessant "we need a redo of everything" crowd that won't accept that.
If you don't like it, then ignore ME:A and say to yourself that they never explored Andromeda, never met the Angara, etc. and keep whatever ending of the Trilogy as "valid for you." But, if the devs decide to return to Andromeda and make the Initiative canon, then you're going to have a hard time saying that the stance that we never explored Andromeda is still "valid for you." If there are synthesized people populating the Milky Way going forward, it's pretty hard to say Shepard decided to control the reapers or Shepard decided to destroy them. It's no longer a decision he could have possibly made.
Let;s say, Bioware decides to declare categorically that every Shepard in future games is going to be male. There was never any FemShep in the universe. Garrus and Shep never romanced each other. Pretty hard to say the choice to romance Garrus is still "valid for you." Pretty hard to say that your FemShep ever possibly existed. When they give us a choice, they're forfeiting the notion to say that all actually went down in a completely different way.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 27, 2018 19:46:29 GMT
Sorry, I don't see it that way. A path not chosen by the devs as canon ceases to exist in the history of that universe. It becomes no longer a possible decision for the PC to have made going forward. Simple as that. Really does that mean that I can't boot up the OT and play as a completely ass hole or a complete saint? If they choose a control ending to move forward with Andromeda it would completely block me from picking Refuse? I am completely unable to pick different choices and play those choices? I am now bound to specifically and only pick those choices that BioWare picked? How fare does this "the developers chose this so everything else is irrelevant" go? Because according to BioWare they are satisfied more or less that the story and the ending of ME 3 works. But players complain about aspects of the story and about the ending not making sense. Because BioWare already decided does that mean every complaint against the games goes from valid criticism based on individual views who see things slightly different, to just whining little cry babies who need to shut up because they are 100% wrong because BioWare choose this so that is all that matters now?
They don't simply going to Andromeda doesn't create the solid foundations when the desperation to avoid talking about the endings create problems. They might be in Andromeda but they are still in the same universe and Andromeda creates massive plot holes in that universe just to avoid talking about the OT. Every negative aspect of the OT's narrative and narrative choices has been doubled down on in new forms rather then learning and correcting them all in that desperate dive to get away from the OT. Because the alterations that could have been done to remove those issues from ME:A's narrative would have required them to address the OT.
No I don't want to ignore it but what I want is for them to actually build and create a good game and good story line withing that ME universe they have created. They choose to continue in the same universe instead of hitting a hard reset button to create Andromeda. They have chosen to create even more plot issues then the OT in one game. The Jardaan was able to create technology that can instantly alter a planet, created an entire race the Angara and basically being on par technology wise with the Reapers. They explode something creating the scourge then just fuck off. Hinting at some enemy of the Jardaan which caused it meaning once again it will be humanity with following aliens going against a super technologically advanced race far beyond us. Then you have the Kett that have a fairly large empire enough to be able to continue to spread and exist despite not being able to reproduce themselves. We have pissed them off and their well armed fleet against our unarmed ships that they will have to politely simply not attack to allow the story to continue. Which is unlikely given we have actively rebelled against them, represent a new source of genetics to add to their own and have found a reliable way to access Remnant Tech which seems to be a major goal in the Cluster.
Already placing bets that the Kett will follow the Collector story line with them being wiped out in a high risk effort by the Initiative groups to protect themselves from it. Only to turn out they are sided with the Jardaan enemies who are pulling the strings from behind the scenes. And they are the reason the Kett no longer reproduce and are able to pull an organic equivalent of the Borg from Star Trek. Wit them possibly pulling another Geth set up with a faction of the Kett not agreeing with the central government siding with the Initiative and the Jardaan reversing their lack of ability to reproduce. Because that loss of reproduction is what drove them to be so heartless and to lose their humanity.
Ubisoft already did that with Odyssey and no one is throwing a shit fit or complaining about it. In the game you can pick to play Alexios or Kassandra how ever Ubisoft already said Kassandra is the canon protagonist. This would literally be no different at all. You picking a FemShep and romancing Garrus is still just as much valid for you as someone who picked a male Shep and romanced Tali. Or another male Shep that romances Ash. Hell in Odyssey you can romance any gender person with any gender character how ever Kassandra is still the cannon protagonist. Nothing about that changes someone playing as Alexios romancing a woman or another guy.
Again there is no reason that I can comprehend to care. It is a video game and you shouldn't be so effected and need for validation of your choices so badly that you would stomp your feet and grumble if a developer made cannon choices that did not line up with your. Particularly when the game still allows you to play how you want and doesn't lock you into the specific canon story line they created for the sequel to the series.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 23:19:48 GMT
Sorry, I don't see it that way. A path not chosen by the devs as canon ceases to exist in the history of that universe. It becomes no longer a possible decision for the PC to have made going forward. Simple as that. Really does that mean that I can't boot up the OT and play as a completely ass hole or a complete saint? If they choose a control ending to move forward with Andromeda it would completely block me from picking Refuse? I am completely unable to pick different choices and play those choices? I am now bound to specifically and only pick those choices that BioWare picked? How fare does this "the developers chose this so everything else is irrelevant" go? Because according to BioWare they are satisfied more or less that the story and the ending of ME 3 works. But players complain about aspects of the story and about the ending not making sense. Because BioWare already decided does that mean every complaint against the games goes from valid criticism based on individual views who see things slightly different, to just whining little cry babies who need to shut up because they are 100% wrong because BioWare choose this so that is all that matters now?
They don't simply going to Andromeda doesn't create the solid foundations when the desperation to avoid talking about the endings create problems. They might be in Andromeda but they are still in the same universe and Andromeda creates massive plot holes in that universe just to avoid talking about the OT. Every negative aspect of the OT's narrative and narrative choices has been doubled down on in new forms rather then learning and correcting them all in that desperate dive to get away from the OT. Because the alterations that could have been done to remove those issues from ME:A's narrative would have required them to address the OT.
No I don't want to ignore it but what I want is for them to actually build and create a good game and good story line withing that ME universe they have created. They choose to continue in the same universe instead of hitting a hard reset button to create Andromeda. They have chosen to create even more plot issues then the OT in one game. The Jardaan was able to create technology that can instantly alter a planet, created an entire race the Angara and basically being on par technology wise with the Reapers. They explode something creating the scourge then just fuck off. Hinting at some enemy of the Jardaan which caused it meaning once again it will be humanity with following aliens going against a super technologically advanced race far beyond us. Then you have the Kett that have a fairly large empire enough to be able to continue to spread and exist despite not being able to reproduce themselves. We have pissed them off and their well armed fleet against our unarmed ships that they will have to politely simply not attack to allow the story to continue. Which is unlikely given we have actively rebelled against them, represent a new source of genetics to add to their own and have found a reliable way to access Remnant Tech which seems to be a major goal in the Cluster.
Already placing bets that the Kett will follow the Collector story line with them being wiped out in a high risk effort by the Initiative groups to protect themselves from it. Only to turn out they are sided with the Jardaan enemies who are pulling the strings from behind the scenes. And they are the reason the Kett no longer reproduce and are able to pull an organic equivalent of the Borg from Star Trek. Wit them possibly pulling another Geth set up with a faction of the Kett not agreeing with the central government siding with the Initiative and the Jardaan reversing their lack of ability to reproduce. Because that loss of reproduction is what drove them to be so heartless and to lose their humanity.
Ubisoft already did that with Odyssey and no one is throwing a shit fit or complaining about it. In the game you can pick to play Alexios or Kassandra how ever Ubisoft already said Kassandra is the canon protagonist. This would literally be no different at all. You picking a FemShep and romancing Garrus is still just as much valid for you as someone who picked a male Shep and romanced Tali. Or another male Shep that romances Ash. Hell in Odyssey you can romance any gender person with any gender character how ever Kassandra is still the cannon protagonist. Nothing about that changes someone playing as Alexios romancing a woman or another guy.
Again there is no reason that I can comprehend to care. It is a video game and you shouldn't be so effected and need for validation of your choices so badly that you would stomp your feet and grumble if a developer made cannon choices that did not line up with your. Particularly when the game still allows you to play how you want and doesn't lock you into the specific canon story line they created for the sequel to the series.
I'm not throwing a shit fit here either. It still invalidates the paths not chosen as canon. You can still pick them while playing the OT if you want, but you can never say that Shepard picked them going forward or that they exist within the history of the narrative once a different choice is made canon. It is unnecessary to invalidate those alternate choices. They've already written canon around them such that they all can still possibly have been made as choices by Shepard within the history of the current narrative. It's the people who can't accept Andromeda as canon, who won't move forward from the point the story is currently at, who are throwing a shit fit and they've been throwing that fit for six years now. They want to erase what is now existing canon because they just didn't like it. That's bull... Bioware is the one writing the story and they have written Andromeda. It IS the foundation for a future story. The quality of the future game does not depend on people having liked the Andromeda installment. A great game can be easily written from Andromeda forward. Nothing needs to be thrown out.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Nov 28, 2018 3:38:47 GMT
Really does that mean that I can't boot up the OT and play as a completely ass hole or a complete saint? If they choose a control ending to move forward with Andromeda it would completely block me from picking Refuse? I am completely unable to pick different choices and play those choices? I am now bound to specifically and only pick those choices that BioWare picked? How fare does this "the developers chose this so everything else is irrelevant" go? Because according to BioWare they are satisfied more or less that the story and the ending of ME 3 works. But players complain about aspects of the story and about the ending not making sense. Because BioWare already decided does that mean every complaint against the games goes from valid criticism based on individual views who see things slightly different, to just whining little cry babies who need to shut up because they are 100% wrong because BioWare choose this so that is all that matters now?
They don't simply going to Andromeda doesn't create the solid foundations when the desperation to avoid talking about the endings create problems. They might be in Andromeda but they are still in the same universe and Andromeda creates massive plot holes in that universe just to avoid talking about the OT. Every negative aspect of the OT's narrative and narrative choices has been doubled down on in new forms rather then learning and correcting them all in that desperate dive to get away from the OT. Because the alterations that could have been done to remove those issues from ME:A's narrative would have required them to address the OT.
No I don't want to ignore it but what I want is for them to actually build and create a good game and good story line withing that ME universe they have created. They choose to continue in the same universe instead of hitting a hard reset button to create Andromeda. They have chosen to create even more plot issues then the OT in one game. The Jardaan was able to create technology that can instantly alter a planet, created an entire race the Angara and basically being on par technology wise with the Reapers. They explode something creating the scourge then just fuck off. Hinting at some enemy of the Jardaan which caused it meaning once again it will be humanity with following aliens going against a super technologically advanced race far beyond us. Then you have the Kett that have a fairly large empire enough to be able to continue to spread and exist despite not being able to reproduce themselves. We have pissed them off and their well armed fleet against our unarmed ships that they will have to politely simply not attack to allow the story to continue. Which is unlikely given we have actively rebelled against them, represent a new source of genetics to add to their own and have found a reliable way to access Remnant Tech which seems to be a major goal in the Cluster.
Already placing bets that the Kett will follow the Collector story line with them being wiped out in a high risk effort by the Initiative groups to protect themselves from it. Only to turn out they are sided with the Jardaan enemies who are pulling the strings from behind the scenes. And they are the reason the Kett no longer reproduce and are able to pull an organic equivalent of the Borg from Star Trek. Wit them possibly pulling another Geth set up with a faction of the Kett not agreeing with the central government siding with the Initiative and the Jardaan reversing their lack of ability to reproduce. Because that loss of reproduction is what drove them to be so heartless and to lose their humanity.
Ubisoft already did that with Odyssey and no one is throwing a shit fit or complaining about it. In the game you can pick to play Alexios or Kassandra how ever Ubisoft already said Kassandra is the canon protagonist. This would literally be no different at all. You picking a FemShep and romancing Garrus is still just as much valid for you as someone who picked a male Shep and romanced Tali. Or another male Shep that romances Ash. Hell in Odyssey you can romance any gender person with any gender character how ever Kassandra is still the cannon protagonist. Nothing about that changes someone playing as Alexios romancing a woman or another guy.
Again there is no reason that I can comprehend to care. It is a video game and you shouldn't be so effected and need for validation of your choices so badly that you would stomp your feet and grumble if a developer made cannon choices that did not line up with your. Particularly when the game still allows you to play how you want and doesn't lock you into the specific canon story line they created for the sequel to the series.
I'm not throwing a shit fit here either. It still invalidates the paths not chosen as canon. You can still pick them while playing the OT if you want, but you can never say that Shepard picked them going forward or that they exist within the history of the narrative once a different choice is made canon. It is unnecessary to invalidate those alternate choices. They've already written canon around them such that they all can still possibly have been made as choices by Shepard within the history of the current narrative. It's the people who can't accept Andromeda as canon, who won't move forward from the point the story is currently at, who are throwing a shit fit and they've been throwing that fit for six years now. They want to erase what is now existing canon because they just didn't like it. That's bull... Bioware is the one writing the story and they have written Andromeda. It IS the foundation for a future story. The quality of the future game does not depend on people having liked the Andromeda installment. A great game can be easily written from Andromeda forward. Nothing needs to be thrown out. I understand what you're saying BUT that all really only counts for your Shepard if your Shepard did that, however your Shepard is the myth. This would involve seperating the facts from the Myths your Shepard is no less valid in that regard because the myth has much to do with Commander Shepard as the truth does. Your Shepard would still be an arsehole if you made them that way. It's just the facts surrounding them that will be cemented as canon.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2018 10:15:49 GMT
I'm not throwing a shit fit here either. It still invalidates the paths not chosen as canon. You can still pick them while playing the OT if you want, but you can never say that Shepard picked them going forward or that they exist within the history of the narrative once a different choice is made canon. It is unnecessary to invalidate those alternate choices. They've already written canon around them such that they all can still possibly have been made as choices by Shepard within the history of the current narrative. It's the people who can't accept Andromeda as canon, who won't move forward from the point the story is currently at, who are throwing a shit fit and they've been throwing that fit for six years now. They want to erase what is now existing canon because they just didn't like it. That's bull... Bioware is the one writing the story and they have written Andromeda. It IS the foundation for a future story. The quality of the future game does not depend on people having liked the Andromeda installment. A great game can be easily written from Andromeda forward. Nothing needs to be thrown out. I understand what you're saying BUT that all really only counts for your Shepard if your Shepard did that, however your Shepard is the myth. This would involve seperating the facts from the Myths your Shepard is no less valid in that regard because the myth has much to do with Commander Shepard as the truth does. Your Shepard would still be an arsehole if you made them that way. It's just the facts surrounding them that will be cemented as canon. I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying at all. People here are attaching emotion to my use of a single word "invalidate" that I simply don't feel. Invalidate in a factual sense is to make something erroneous going forward. Nothing more. If Shepard made a decision in ME3 that Bioware says could not possibly have happened because they've declared (as the rightful authors of their story) that something else happened, to continue to suggest that Shepard made those choices is an invalid stance within the confines of that story going forward. It becomes erroneous. To keep those endings possible, one would have to stop reading the story at that point.
The authors chose not to do that and I respect them for making that decision. If they now change their minds, they'll lost that respect that they gained simply because I cannot purport to still be respecting them for something their no longer doing. I've never said I would hate them for it. I haven't even said I would never buy the game (as some on the other side of this argument have asserted here). What I have said is that I'm unlikely to be interested in it as a continuation of the OT because it doesn't continue the OT since I cannot carry all those decisions forward into the new story. I'd have to "abandon" every one of my Shepards who did not make the canon choice because they simply cannot exist within the confines of the story going forward. That's all.
I wish people would just stop reading in some emotion to this that I simply do not feel. Reality is reality. My real life choices and my real life morality are my own. It's not ever been Bioware's place to validate that. They write fiction... entertainment... that is all.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 28, 2018 14:14:26 GMT
I understand what you're saying BUT that all really only counts for your Shepard if your Shepard did that, however your Shepard is the myth. This would involve seperating the facts from the Myths your Shepard is no less valid in that regard because the myth has much to do with Commander Shepard as the truth does. Your Shepard would still be an arsehole if you made them that way. It's just the facts surrounding them that will be cemented as canon. I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying at all. People here are attaching emotion to my use of a single word "invalidate" that I simply don't feel. Invalidate in a factual sense is to make something erroneous going forward. Nothing more. If Shepard made a decision in ME3 that Bioware says could not possibly have happened because they've declared (as the rightful authors of their story) that something else happened, to continue to suggest that Shepard made those choices is an invalid stance within the confines of that story going forward. It becomes erroneous. To keep those endings possible, one would have to stop reading the story at that point.
The authors chose not to do that and I respect them for making that decision. If they now change their minds, they'll lost that respect that they gained simply because I cannot purport to still be respecting them for something their no longer doing. I've never said I would hate them for it. I haven't even said I would never buy the game (as some on the other side of this argument have asserted here). What I have said is that I'm unlikely to be interested in it as a continuation of the OT because it doesn't continue the OT since I cannot carry all those decisions forward into the new story. I'd have to "abandon" every one of my Shepards who did not make the canon choice because they simply cannot exist within the confines of the story going forward. That's all.
I wish people would just stop reading in some emotion to this that I simply do not feel. Reality is reality. My real life choices and my real life morality are my own. It's not ever been Bioware's place to validate that. They write fiction... entertainment... that is all. The problem here comes from introducing save imports. It provides the expectation that one's choices will actually be respected.Assassin's Creed, to my knowledge, has never let player choice be anything but a flavoring for the story. It was an action game first, an RPG a distant second, or perhaps even third. Bioware, otoh, actually made the (not exactly accurate) claim that they respect player choice, and provided a means of carrying those choices over. Therefore, there is now the expectation that every conversation, every side quest, every person ever met and talked to will have BIG CONSEQUENCES and must be referenced to in every subsequent game forevermore. This is why I keep saying that the results of player choice should be limited to the game where the choice was made. Respect player choice to the point where an individual game can take many paths and have many outcomes. But let each individual game be its own thing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2018 14:32:51 GMT
I understand what you're saying BUT that all really only counts for your Shepard if your Shepard did that, however your Shepard is the myth. This would involve seperating the facts from the Myths your Shepard is no less valid in that regard because the myth has much to do with Commander Shepard as the truth does. Your Shepard would still be an arsehole if you made them that way. It's just the facts surrounding them that will be cemented as canon. I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying at all. People here are attaching emotion to my use of a single word "invalidate" that I simply don't feel. Invalidate in a factual sense is to make something erroneous going forward. Nothing more. If Shepard made a decision in ME3 that Bioware says could not possibly have happened because they've declared (as the rightful authors of their story) that something else happened, to continue to suggest that Shepard made those choices is an invalid stance within the confines of that story going forward. It becomes erroneous. To keep those endings possible, one would have to stop reading the story at that point.
The authors chose not to do that and I respect them for making that decision. If they now change their minds, they'll lost that respect that they gained simply because I cannot purport to still be respecting them for something their no longer doing. I've never said I would hate them for it. I haven't even said I would never buy the game (as some on the other side of this argument have asserted here). What I have said is that I'm unlikely to be interested in it as a continuation of the OT because it doesn't continue the OT since I cannot carry all those decisions forward into the new story. I'd have to "abandon" every one of my Shepards who did not make the canon choice because they simply cannot exist within the confines of the story going forward. That's all.
I wish people would just stop reading in some emotion to this that I simply do not feel. Reality is reality. My real life choices and my real life morality are my own. It's not ever been Bioware's place to validate that. They write fiction... entertainment... that is all. Lets first and foremost get it out of the way that you can still see my post. It's called "Hit the Display Quote button"... Second, It's not as if Bioware hasn't already done this in the past. Revan, no matter what you picked (male/female, light/dark) in Kotor has a canon path and so does the Exile in Kotor 2.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2018 14:34:44 GMT
I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying at all. People here are attaching emotion to my use of a single word "invalidate" that I simply don't feel. Invalidate in a factual sense is to make something erroneous going forward. Nothing more. If Shepard made a decision in ME3 that Bioware says could not possibly have happened because they've declared (as the rightful authors of their story) that something else happened, to continue to suggest that Shepard made those choices is an invalid stance within the confines of that story going forward. It becomes erroneous. To keep those endings possible, one would have to stop reading the story at that point.
The authors chose not to do that and I respect them for making that decision. If they now change their minds, they'll lost that respect that they gained simply because I cannot purport to still be respecting them for something their no longer doing. I've never said I would hate them for it. I haven't even said I would never buy the game (as some on the other side of this argument have asserted here). What I have said is that I'm unlikely to be interested in it as a continuation of the OT because it doesn't continue the OT since I cannot carry all those decisions forward into the new story. I'd have to "abandon" every one of my Shepards who did not make the canon choice because they simply cannot exist within the confines of the story going forward. That's all.
I wish people would just stop reading in some emotion to this that I simply do not feel. Reality is reality. My real life choices and my real life morality are my own. It's not ever been Bioware's place to validate that. They write fiction... entertainment... that is all. The problem here comes from introducing save imports. It provides the expectation that one's choices will actually be respected.Assassin's Creed, to my knowledge, has never let player choice be anything but a flavoring for the story. It was an action game first, an RPG a distant second, or perhaps even third. Bioware, otoh, actually made the (not exactly accurate) claim that they respect player choice, and provided a means of carrying those choices over. Therefore, there is now the expectation that every conversation, every side quest, every person ever met and talked to will have BIG CONSEQUENCES and must be referenced to in every subsequent game forevermore. This is why I keep saying that the results of player choice should be limited to the game where the choice was made. Respect player choice to the point where an individual game can take many paths and have many outcomes. But let each individual game be its own thing. I agree with this. I always felt like Bioware kinds wrote themselves in a corner by the end of ME3 with all the decisions they had to account for. That's why the ending (for me at least) felt so rushed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2018 14:36:08 GMT
I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying at all. People here are attaching emotion to my use of a single word "invalidate" that I simply don't feel. Invalidate in a factual sense is to make something erroneous going forward. Nothing more. If Shepard made a decision in ME3 that Bioware says could not possibly have happened because they've declared (as the rightful authors of their story) that something else happened, to continue to suggest that Shepard made those choices is an invalid stance within the confines of that story going forward. It becomes erroneous. To keep those endings possible, one would have to stop reading the story at that point.
The authors chose not to do that and I respect them for making that decision. If they now change their minds, they'll lost that respect that they gained simply because I cannot purport to still be respecting them for something their no longer doing. I've never said I would hate them for it. I haven't even said I would never buy the game (as some on the other side of this argument have asserted here). What I have said is that I'm unlikely to be interested in it as a continuation of the OT because it doesn't continue the OT since I cannot carry all those decisions forward into the new story. I'd have to "abandon" every one of my Shepards who did not make the canon choice because they simply cannot exist within the confines of the story going forward. That's all.
I wish people would just stop reading in some emotion to this that I simply do not feel. Reality is reality. My real life choices and my real life morality are my own. It's not ever been Bioware's place to validate that. They write fiction... entertainment... that is all. The problem here comes from introducing save imports. It provides the expectation that one's choices will actually be respected.Assassin's Creed, to my knowledge, has never let player choice be anything but a flavoring for the story. It was an action game first, an RPG a distant second, or perhaps even third. Bioware, otoh, actually made the (not exactly accurate) claim that they respect player choice, and provided a means of carrying those choices over. Therefore, there is now the expectation that every conversation, every side quest, every person ever met and talked to will have BIG CONSEQUENCES and must be referenced to in every subsequent game forevermore. This is why I keep saying that the results of player choice should be limited to the game where the choice was made. Respect player choice to the point where an individual game can take many paths and have many outcomes. But let each individual game be its own thing. Regardless, it would still invalidate the choice(s) of the player as far as how the story's history goes upon writing the story forward. It matters not what the player's expectations are... either the devs are sticking with a concept where the decisions remain all possible within a vager history or they openly declare that the player's choices in any single game are not valid within the context of the history of the world in which they are writing a continuing story. To be truly standalone games, there can be no games tied to a history created by previous games. Every game then has to basically say it pertains to an "alternate and separate universe." It's not just save imports, it's the entire continuity of the story. AC sets itself in different parts of the world in each game. It bases itself (albeit loosely) on the actual history of the area of the world in which the game is set. It's a different beast entirely from Mass Effect, which committed itself originally to producing stories with continuity from game to game.
If an author proposes a book series where the second book is to be based on events that happened in the first book but then they change their mind as to what those events were after writing the first book and while writing the second, they invalidate the events in the first book. The story's continuity is destroyed. It doesn't matter how I, the reader, feel about it... although I'm going to say that I would have preferred the author to continue with their plan to base their second book on the events they presented in the their first book. Which is, in effect, what I'm saying about Bioware in this case.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 28, 2018 15:16:09 GMT
I believe it was Ganble who said on twitter they respect players choice. Doesn't matter if the choice is very minor or a major choice. Look at Garrus. If he isn't recruited in ME1, he and Kirrahe, if he survived ME1, will mention each other by name when they meet on Sur'Kesh. Garrus will even mention the times he saved Shepard, when shooting bottles, even when not recruited. How is that possible? Does that mean the events in my playthrough are invalidated? I would say yes.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 28, 2018 15:19:40 GMT
If an author proposes a book series where the second book is to be based on events that happened in the first book but then they change their mind as to what those events were after writing the first book and while writing the second, they invalidate the events in the first book. The story's continuity is destroyed. It doesn't matter how I, the reader, feel about it... although I'm going to say that I would have preferred the author to continue with their plan to base their second book on the events they presented in the their first book. Which is, in effect, what I'm saying about Bioware in this case. It's already happened. Heck it already happened by ME2!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2018 16:01:54 GMT
If an author proposes a book series where the second book is to be based on events that happened in the first book but then they change their mind as to what those events were after writing the first book and while writing the second, they invalidate the events in the first book. The story's continuity is destroyed. It doesn't matter how I, the reader, feel about it... although I'm going to say that I would have preferred the author to continue with their plan to base their second book on the events they presented in the their first book. Which is, in effect, what I'm saying about Bioware in this case. It's already happened. Heck it already happened by ME2! I agree. It happened in ME2 specifically when they enabled an ending in which Shepard could die and then did not proceed with writing a version of ME3 that incorporated or acknowledged that event at all. I would have PREFERRED that they had written a version of ME3 where, if the user imported a file from ME2 where Shepard had died that the game gave us a funeral scene and then introduced an alternate to Shepard and allowed us to play forward with that alternate or perhaps introduced even a second surprise from Miranda where she resurrected Shepard a second time (although that would be lamer than proceeding with an alternate PC). As it is, there is no continuity between an ME2 where everyone died on the SM into ME3. That ending of ME2 has been rendered invalid. It never happened in the ME universe. Alternatively, Bioware should have never structured ME2 where Shepard could have died and, therefore, ensured that all players could continue their playthroughs into ME3.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It still doesn't make it my preference to happen. I repeat, as far as I'm concerned, the ME story is already beyond the ME3 ending issue. They wrote their solution around it. I'm OK with that. I see absolutely no reason for a "do over" at this point. An amazing ME story can be written starting from the foundation of ME:A. Ryder can be developed into an amazing character or they can introduce a different amazing PC. Andromeda can be an amazing galaxy to explore. My preference is that they don't invalidate what they've already written by doing it over. I'm as entitled as anyone else here to my preferences.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 28, 2018 16:02:35 GMT
Really does that mean that I can't boot up the OT and play as a completely ass hole or a complete saint? If they choose a control ending to move forward with Andromeda it would completely block me from picking Refuse? I am completely unable to pick different choices and play those choices? I am now bound to specifically and only pick those choices that BioWare picked? How fare does this "the developers chose this so everything else is irrelevant" go? Because according to BioWare they are satisfied more or less that the story and the ending of ME 3 works. But players complain about aspects of the story and about the ending not making sense. Because BioWare already decided does that mean every complaint against the games goes from valid criticism based on individual views who see things slightly different, to just whining little cry babies who need to shut up because they are 100% wrong because BioWare choose this so that is all that matters now?
They don't simply going to Andromeda doesn't create the solid foundations when the desperation to avoid talking about the endings create problems. They might be in Andromeda but they are still in the same universe and Andromeda creates massive plot holes in that universe just to avoid talking about the OT. Every negative aspect of the OT's narrative and narrative choices has been doubled down on in new forms rather then learning and correcting them all in that desperate dive to get away from the OT. Because the alterations that could have been done to remove those issues from ME:A's narrative would have required them to address the OT.
No I don't want to ignore it but what I want is for them to actually build and create a good game and good story line withing that ME universe they have created. They choose to continue in the same universe instead of hitting a hard reset button to create Andromeda. They have chosen to create even more plot issues then the OT in one game. The Jardaan was able to create technology that can instantly alter a planet, created an entire race the Angara and basically being on par technology wise with the Reapers. They explode something creating the scourge then just fuck off. Hinting at some enemy of the Jardaan which caused it meaning once again it will be humanity with following aliens going against a super technologically advanced race far beyond us. Then you have the Kett that have a fairly large empire enough to be able to continue to spread and exist despite not being able to reproduce themselves. We have pissed them off and their well armed fleet against our unarmed ships that they will have to politely simply not attack to allow the story to continue. Which is unlikely given we have actively rebelled against them, represent a new source of genetics to add to their own and have found a reliable way to access Remnant Tech which seems to be a major goal in the Cluster.
Already placing bets that the Kett will follow the Collector story line with them being wiped out in a high risk effort by the Initiative groups to protect themselves from it. Only to turn out they are sided with the Jardaan enemies who are pulling the strings from behind the scenes. And they are the reason the Kett no longer reproduce and are able to pull an organic equivalent of the Borg from Star Trek. Wit them possibly pulling another Geth set up with a faction of the Kett not agreeing with the central government siding with the Initiative and the Jardaan reversing their lack of ability to reproduce. Because that loss of reproduction is what drove them to be so heartless and to lose their humanity.
Ubisoft already did that with Odyssey and no one is throwing a shit fit or complaining about it. In the game you can pick to play Alexios or Kassandra how ever Ubisoft already said Kassandra is the canon protagonist. This would literally be no different at all. You picking a FemShep and romancing Garrus is still just as much valid for you as someone who picked a male Shep and romanced Tali. Or another male Shep that romances Ash. Hell in Odyssey you can romance any gender person with any gender character how ever Kassandra is still the cannon protagonist. Nothing about that changes someone playing as Alexios romancing a woman or another guy.
Again there is no reason that I can comprehend to care. It is a video game and you shouldn't be so effected and need for validation of your choices so badly that you would stomp your feet and grumble if a developer made cannon choices that did not line up with your. Particularly when the game still allows you to play how you want and doesn't lock you into the specific canon story line they created for the sequel to the series.
I'm not throwing a shit fit here either. It still invalidates the paths not chosen as canon. You can still pick them while playing the OT if you want, but you can never say that Shepard picked them going forward or that they exist within the history of the narrative once a different choice is made canon. It is unnecessary to invalidate those alternate choices. They've already written canon around them such that they all can still possibly have been made as choices by Shepard within the history of the current narrative. It's the people who can't accept Andromeda as canon, who won't move forward from the point the story is currently at, who are throwing a shit fit and they've been throwing that fit for six years now. They want to erase what is now existing canon because they just didn't like it. That's bull... Bioware is the one writing the story and they have written Andromeda. It IS the foundation for a future story. The quality of the future game does not depend on people having liked the Andromeda installment. A great game can be easily written from Andromeda forward. Nothing needs to be thrown out. You kind of are because of the statement that it invalidates all the paths not chosen as canon. As it stands now my choices invalidate all your choices and leads to the problems when talking about the OT and the ending. Almost literally every time I come across someone complaining about the ending to ME 3 being complete shit and making no sense and I try to show how it does make sense. 99% of the time they will jump behind the "but my Shepard...." statement to reinforce their original opinion. So already any paths not chosen by the individual are already shown to be invalidated just by talking to people. This is literally no different though unlike the pointless and meaningless conversations that take place on forums and social media sites this would allow something to actually be created. The foundation build on deus ex machina and repeating the same problems as previous series is not a solid foundation. A solid foundation avoids the issues of the past and ensures the story they build on will not have massive flaws in the story. Again I repeat about the Kett issues alone they have written themselves into a corner with. Something that could easily have been avoided by simply having this be a post Reaper War untied galaxy expedition fully armed with advanced tech and advanced weapons allowing the Kett to be a threat but not be the over whelming threat that the Initiative has no realistic way to counter. Also this is just me personally but given the bit push for neural interfacing with AI's to expand the human ability while avoiding the possibility of synthetic uprising I would love to see the Kett launching an all out offensive against the Initiative pushing them back and being on the brink of destruction when a couple dozen post synthesis Reapers show up and drive them back out of the Cluster. With a small population of Milky Way Galaxy people being transported in the Reapers as they work to help remove the Scourge and provide the technological upgrades to the Initiative and the other races of the Andromeda Galaxy. With the plan to build a massive Mass Relay system to connect the Milky Way and Andromeda system and reduce travel time to months or a couple years instead of 600 years at normal FTL. With the 3rd game a race against time to finish the Relay system on this end of the Network before the Jardeen or their unspecified enemies go after the Initiative so the rest of the Reapers and united Milky Way Galaxy's forces can pour though the Relay system to help the Initiative fight back against the technologically superior foe. A shameless rehashing of previous events but no different then they seem to be doing now anyways. Which at least this time unlike Crucible this is explained and plotted in the 2nd game rather then pulled out at that last minute in the final game to address the unbeatable enemies.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Nov 28, 2018 16:12:18 GMT
I believe it was Ganble who said on twitter they respect players choice. Doesn't matter if the choice is very minor or a major choice. Look at Garrus. If he isn't recruited in ME1, he and Kirrahe, if he survived ME1, will mention each other by name when they meet on Sur'Kesh. Garrus will even mention the times he saved Shepard, when shooting bottles, even when not recruited. How is that possible? Does that mean the events in my playthrough are invalidated? I would say yes. Same with Wrex, if you don't recruit him in ME1 then Wrex's bother says that you killed his brother, even though you did not.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 28, 2018 16:27:52 GMT
I think it really comes down to whether people find a time jump acceptable or not. If you just want shepherd mass effect, they kind of have to pick a canon ending.
If it’s X00 years in the future all choices can be respected. Choices would fall into 2 categories, 1 small enough they never have to mention it, but Gravy if they do. You convinced the lady to get genetic treatments for her son or Helena Blake etc. 2. Big decisions hard to ignore. Here you can have the same gameplay end result but dialogue and codex entries respect your choice.
Don’t cure the genophage like me, and the game state has it cured. Dialogue that explains it was cured by scientists x y years later, and when you are at krogan planets the population stats are less.
Low ems, what parts of the galaxy that you fly to in the game are the same but in the codex and dialogue how many relays that have been fixed is far less.
End choice. Synthesis is where we are supposed to end up anyways, we either picked green, or we naturally cybered up over time. If you picked control Shepard and the reapers eventually flew away once we were on our feet. Picked something other than the green choice you can have a small scene about pure organic bigotry because while we are moving towards synthesis you are not 100% there.
Rachni. We already know they can be brought back with cloning. Peoples opinions of them might be different based on the choice and the history of why they are around can change. Either saved or cloned. And then play with their population numbers a bit to show it has an effect.
It can all be respected and only the most die hard would have a problem with it. They might hate it for a number of reasons but it can easily be done to respect past choices. It might not be perfect at doing it, but neither were 2 and 3.
I still think they should stick with andromeda, though I think they need a time jump or something to add some depth to the cluster. There is only so much empty planet, tiny population crap you can do.(unless you actually start being a pathfinder instead of a retreader)And either a more assertive Ryder or a new protagonist.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 28, 2018 16:30:44 GMT
I still think they should stick with andromeda, though I think they need a time jump or something to add some depth to the cluster. There is only so much empty planet, tiny population crap you can do.(unless you actually start being a pathfinder instead of a retreader)And either a more assertive Ryder or a new protagonist. I remember Mac Walters saying that the plan for Andromeda games was to gradually expand into more and more of the galaxy, so I don't think we need much of a time jump since we'll find new things to do as we explore more and more clusters.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2018 16:34:43 GMT
I believe it was Ganble who said on twitter they respect players choice. Doesn't matter if the choice is very minor or a major choice. Look at Garrus. If he isn't recruited in ME1, he and Kirrahe, if he survived ME1, will mention each other by name when they meet on Sur'Kesh. Garrus will even mention the times he saved Shepard, when shooting bottles, even when not recruited. How is that possible? Does that mean the events in my playthrough are invalidated? I would say yes. ... and we do tend to overlook those writing errors as being more minor. We don't go back and ask Bioware to redo the game to fix all those errors.. and least I never would. Their intent, however, was to preserve the choices and not invalidate them. I respect them for that intent. If they change their intent, I can't continue to respect them specifically for intending to respect all player choices, now can I? So, I've said they would lose my respect. I never said I wouldn't consider buying a future ME game if they declared a canon ending to ME3. I said I would have to abandon all my Shepards who did not fit the canon selected. They would be invalidated going forward into the story... just the same as my Shepards who have died in ME2. They could not have existed within the history of the current ME universe. I would prefer not to have to do that. It's that simple.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2018 18:12:29 GMT
I think the best choice would be to do nothing, and move on from it.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 28, 2018 21:16:48 GMT
I believe it was Ganble who said on twitter they respect players choice. Doesn't matter if the choice is very minor or a major choice. Look at Garrus. If he isn't recruited in ME1, he and Kirrahe, if he survived ME1, will mention each other by name when they meet on Sur'Kesh. Garrus will even mention the times he saved Shepard, when shooting bottles, even when not recruited. How is that possible? Does that mean the events in my playthrough are invalidated? I would say yes. That's why I think Dragon Age has the right approach. You can burn a lot of wordcount making all of this stuff work, and it's not obvious that it's really useful. People mostly notice when they screw something up.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Nov 28, 2018 21:30:35 GMT
I believe it was Ganble who said on twitter they respect players choice. Doesn't matter if the choice is very minor or a major choice. Look at Garrus. If he isn't recruited in ME1, he and Kirrahe, if he survived ME1, will mention each other by name when they meet on Sur'Kesh. Garrus will even mention the times he saved Shepard, when shooting bottles, even when not recruited. How is that possible? Does that mean the events in my playthrough are invalidated? I would say yes. ... and we do tend to overlook those writing errors as being more minor. We don't go back and ask Bioware to redo the game to fix all those errors.. and least I never would. Their intent, however, was to preserve the choices and not invalidate them. I respect them for that intent. If they change their intent, I can't continue to respect them specifically for intending to respect all player choices, now can I? So, I've said they would lose my respect. I never said I wouldn't consider buying a future ME game if they declared a canon ending to ME3. I said I would have to abandon all my Shepards who did not fit the canon selected. They would be invalidated going forward into the story... just the same as my Shepards who have died in ME2. They could not have existed within the history of the current ME universe. I would prefer not to have to do that. It's that simple. I seem to recall the Council thanking my Shepard for saving them from the Reapers at the end of Mass Effect.
Then in Mass Effect 2:
Then there was Ash practically spitting in my Shepard's eye calling him a traitor for joining Cerberus even though she was with me as we slaughtered our way through several Cerberus bases and handed data on them over to the Alliance. And all my Shep could response with amounted to "Hey Ash, long time no see. Wanna join Cerberus? It'll be like old times!"
So yeah, these were not "minor writing errors" And this doesn't even touch what ME3 did. I certainly didn't feel my choices were validated. Intentions only go so far.
And so going forward, I would not want any of Shepard's deeds ever mentioned going forward. In essence, I want Shepard to "become a legend" No definitive canon. Let historians argue over which stories are true and which are just that, stories.
What happened to the Reapers? Unknown, there are stories of them lurking out beyond unexplored space. Or maybe they died out. But no one alive has ever seen one.
What happened to the krogan? They're still around, in small but sustainable numbers. Some say Shepard saved them from a sterility plague. Others say the krogan managed to adapt to it. Still others say a salarian treated them. But to this day, they're still warlike and isolationist, though perhaps not to the extremes that legends say they once were.
Quarians/geth? Nobody's seen either in centuries. Whether one wiped the other out, or a few survived and created a new society for themselves, or wiped each other out later in a war, or simply went their separate ways, who knows?
Each time you play the MET, you're playing out one of the legends. RGB? There's versions of each of them. Some clearly false. Others with perhaps a grain of truth. But nobody really knows what happened on the Citadel during that battle.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 28, 2018 21:31:30 GMT
I believe it was Ganble who said on twitter they respect players choice. Doesn't matter if the choice is very minor or a major choice. Look at Garrus. If he isn't recruited in ME1, he and Kirrahe, if he survived ME1, will mention each other by name when they meet on Sur'Kesh. Garrus will even mention the times he saved Shepard, when shooting bottles, even when not recruited. How is that possible? Does that mean the events in my playthrough are invalidated? I would say yes. That's why I think Dragon Age has the right approach. You can burn a lot of wordcount making all of this stuff work, and it's not obvious that it's really useful. People mostly notice when they screw something up. If you are referring to a new protagonist each game, I agree. If anything, I think they still have too many cameos.
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Nov 28, 2018 22:20:10 GMT
i like the idea for originality sake. i would love to see someone explore the after math thousands of years after the endings, in a way so that you dont have to make a ton of content so in turn making development easier. but no matter what way you go, you either have to lessen the endings to the point of meaningless choices, make three games of content in one if you want to make the endings as meaningful as possible, make a cannon ending, or a reboot. (im excluding anything with Andromeda and focusing on MW).
All the things i have said above all have down sides and up sides. and none of them are impossible theoretically. my thing is bioware can just must make MEA2 which is the easiest thing to do, if bioware wants to do anything in the milky way that isnt a prequel they are going to have to bite the bullet. but i think bioware could do it and is more than likely to do it over any other developer. bioware isnt afraid of trying new things obviously, and really bioware i think has the guts to tackle the endings and find a way through given enough time. why were the endings so bad, because the writers werent given the time they properly needed to make a better ending. so if they allow themselves the time to really make a good ending to series, or find a way around it i think bioware can go for it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 28, 2018 22:43:10 GMT
That's why I think Dragon Age has the right approach. You can burn a lot of wordcount making all of this stuff work, and it's not obvious that it's really useful. People mostly notice when they screw something up. If you are referring to a new protagonist each game, I agree. If anything, I think they still have too many cameos. Depends if the story is complete or now. For example yes the Warden not appearing after DAO was fine for me since their story was over. Meanwhile with the Inquisitor it is not fine with me since their story is not over.
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