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Post by themikefest on Nov 28, 2018 23:27:52 GMT
I believe it was Ganble who said on twitter they respect players choice. Doesn't matter if the choice is very minor or a major choice. Look at Garrus. If he isn't recruited in ME1, he and Kirrahe, if he survived ME1, will mention each other by name when they meet on Sur'Kesh. Garrus will even mention the times he saved Shepard, when shooting bottles, even when not recruited. How is that possible? Does that mean the events in my playthrough are invalidated? I would say yes. That's why I think Dragon Age has the right approach. You can burn a lot of wordcount making all of this stuff work, and it's not obvious that it's really useful. People mostly notice when they screw something up. Just have Garrus say nothing when confronting Kirrahe on Sur'Kesh, and have the dialogue removed from the scene with the bottles. No burning of wordcount needed. Even when he's not recruited in ME1, he won't say anything when confronting Ashley on Horizon whereas if he is recruited, he will say her last name. The same happens with T'soni. If she is taken on Noveria, she will hear her mother say little wing which she acknowledges when talking with Aethyta in ME3, whereas if she isn't taken to Noveria, she didn't know about little wing until Aethyta mentions it to her.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2018 1:57:20 GMT
... and we do tend to overlook those writing errors as being more minor. We don't go back and ask Bioware to redo the game to fix all those errors.. and least I never would. Their intent, however, was to preserve the choices and not invalidate them. I respect them for that intent. If they change their intent, I can't continue to respect them specifically for intending to respect all player choices, now can I? So, I've said they would lose my respect. I never said I wouldn't consider buying a future ME game if they declared a canon ending to ME3. I said I would have to abandon all my Shepards who did not fit the canon selected. They would be invalidated going forward into the story... just the same as my Shepards who have died in ME2. They could not have existed within the history of the current ME universe. I would prefer not to have to do that. It's that simple. I seem to recall the Council thanking my Shepard for saving them from the Reapers at the end of Mass Effect.
Then in Mass Effect 2:
Then there was Ash practically spitting in my Shepard's eye calling him a traitor for joining Cerberus even though she was with me as we slaughtered our way through several Cerberus bases and handed data on them over to the Alliance. And all my Shep could response with amounted to "Hey Ash, long time no see. Wanna join Cerberus? It'll be like old times!"
So yeah, these were not "minor writing errors" And this doesn't even touch what ME3 did. I certainly didn't feel my choices were validated. Intentions only go so far.
And so going forward, I would not want any of Shepard's deeds ever mentioned going forward. In essence, I want Shepard to "become a legend" No definitive canon. Let historians argue over which stories are true and which are just that, stories.
What happened to the Reapers? Unknown, there are stories of them lurking out beyond unexplored space. Or maybe they died out. But no one alive has ever seen one.
What happened to the krogan? They're still around, in small but sustainable numbers. Some say Shepard saved them from a sterility plague. Others say the krogan managed to adapt to it. Still others say a salarian treated them. But to this day, they're still warlike and isolationist, though perhaps not to the extremes that legends say they once were.
Quarians/geth? Nobody's seen either in centuries. Whether one wiped the other out, or a few survived and created a new society for themselves, or wiped each other out later in a war, or simply went their separate ways, who knows?
Each time you play the MET, you're playing out one of the legends. RGB? There's versions of each of them. Some clearly false. Others with perhaps a grain of truth. But nobody really knows what happened on the Citadel during that battle.
What themikefest mentioned were writing errors and I was responding to him.
The Council simply back-peddled... I think that was an intentional insertion of a concept that you can't trust politicians. I don't look upon that as taking one decision by the player and making it canon over the other choice. It was possible for either the saved Council or the new one to behave that way. The same holds true for the VS turning coat on Shepard. Both turned on Shepard. It didn't matter which one you saved, ME2 and ME3 adapted to reflect the one you did choose to save in that role. It's not like they only produced an ME3 where, say, Kaidan lived... basically telling anyone who saved Ashley that Shepard could not have decided that way. If Bioware were to say that the Reapers were synthesized and our next ME game is going to show both Reapers and Organics who appear the same way as the synthesis ending in ME3, then it becomes impossible for Shepard to have decided to destroy the Reapers... regardless of whether or not anything is said about what he/she did as a legend. If they bring back a living Shepard in the next ME game, then any legendary ending that suggests he/she died on the Citadel during the main battle with the Reapers is obviously invalid (erroneous) in a factual sense. You admit some would be clearly false... that's the same as saying they'd be invalidated by the subsequent game since that subsequent game would be telling the actual history of the galaxy and that history would be clearly in opposition to the "legendary" ending. Historians have disproved/invalidated a lot of our ancient history... reducing them to legends and myths. It doesn't make them any less invalidated. In other words, I don't think your examples address what we've been discussing.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 29, 2018 16:16:59 GMT
I seem to recall the Council thanking my Shepard for saving them from the Reapers at the end of Mass Effect.
Then in Mass Effect 2:
Then there was Ash practically spitting in my Shepard's eye calling him a traitor for joining Cerberus even though she was with me as we slaughtered our way through several Cerberus bases and handed data on them over to the Alliance. And all my Shep could response with amounted to "Hey Ash, long time no see. Wanna join Cerberus? It'll be like old times!"
So yeah, these were not "minor writing errors" And this doesn't even touch what ME3 did. I certainly didn't feel my choices were validated. Intentions only go so far.
And so going forward, I would not want any of Shepard's deeds ever mentioned going forward. In essence, I want Shepard to "become a legend" No definitive canon. Let historians argue over which stories are true and which are just that, stories.
What happened to the Reapers? Unknown, there are stories of them lurking out beyond unexplored space. Or maybe they died out. But no one alive has ever seen one.
What happened to the krogan? They're still around, in small but sustainable numbers. Some say Shepard saved them from a sterility plague. Others say the krogan managed to adapt to it. Still others say a salarian treated them. But to this day, they're still warlike and isolationist, though perhaps not to the extremes that legends say they once were.
Quarians/geth? Nobody's seen either in centuries. Whether one wiped the other out, or a few survived and created a new society for themselves, or wiped each other out later in a war, or simply went their separate ways, who knows?
Each time you play the MET, you're playing out one of the legends. RGB? There's versions of each of them. Some clearly false. Others with perhaps a grain of truth. But nobody really knows what happened on the Citadel during that battle.
What themikefest mentioned were writing errors and I was responding to him.
The Council simply back-peddled... I think that was an intentional insertion of a concept that you can't trust politicians. I don't look upon that as taking one decision by the player and making it canon over the other choice. It was possible for either the saved Council or the new one to behave that way. The same holds true for the VS turning coat on Shepard. Both turned on Shepard. It didn't matter which one you saved, ME2 and ME3 adapted to reflect the one you did choose to save in that role. It's not like they only produced an ME3 where, say, Kaidan lived... basically telling anyone who saved Ashley that Shepard could not have decided that way. If Bioware were to say that the Reapers were synthesized and our next ME game is going to show both Reapers and Organics who appear the same way as the synthesis ending in ME3, then it becomes impossible for Shepard to have decided to destroy the Reapers... regardless of whether or not anything is said about what he/she did as a legend. If they bring back a living Shepard in the next ME game, then any legendary ending that suggests he/she died on the Citadel during the main battle with the Reapers is obviously invalid (erroneous) in a factual sense. You admit some would be clearly false... that's the same as saying they'd be invalidated by the subsequent game since that subsequent game would be telling the actual history of the galaxy and that history would be clearly in opposition to the "legendary" ending. Historians have disproved/invalidated a lot of our ancient history... reducing them to legends and myths. It doesn't make them any less invalidated. In other words, I don't think your examples address what we've been discussing.
It invalidates play style. It doesn't matter if you fought Cerberus or not, or stayed loyal to the Alliance or not. The VS ALWAYS treats you like you were a Cerberus sympathizer. Just as the Council ALWAYS denies the existence of the Reapers, even when they ended up believing you in the previous game. It's Bioware saying "you role-played your Shepard wrong" What I'm saying is that the trilogy SHOULD be regarded as legends. It "fixes" the inconsistencies while at the same time leaving behind the baggage of any ending having to be "true"
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2018 16:27:34 GMT
What themikefest mentioned were writing errors and I was responding to him.
The Council simply back-peddled... I think that was an intentional insertion of a concept that you can't trust politicians. I don't look upon that as taking one decision by the player and making it canon over the other choice. It was possible for either the saved Council or the new one to behave that way. The same holds true for the VS turning coat on Shepard. Both turned on Shepard. It didn't matter which one you saved, ME2 and ME3 adapted to reflect the one you did choose to save in that role. It's not like they only produced an ME3 where, say, Kaidan lived... basically telling anyone who saved Ashley that Shepard could not have decided that way. If Bioware were to say that the Reapers were synthesized and our next ME game is going to show both Reapers and Organics who appear the same way as the synthesis ending in ME3, then it becomes impossible for Shepard to have decided to destroy the Reapers... regardless of whether or not anything is said about what he/she did as a legend. If they bring back a living Shepard in the next ME game, then any legendary ending that suggests he/she died on the Citadel during the main battle with the Reapers is obviously invalid (erroneous) in a factual sense. You admit some would be clearly false... that's the same as saying they'd be invalidated by the subsequent game since that subsequent game would be telling the actual history of the galaxy and that history would be clearly in opposition to the "legendary" ending. Historians have disproved/invalidated a lot of our ancient history... reducing them to legends and myths. It doesn't make them any less invalidated. In other words, I don't think your examples address what we've been discussing.
It invalidates play style. It doesn't matter if you fought Cerberus or not, or stayed loyal to the Alliance or not. The VS ALWAYS treats you like you were a Cerberus sympathizer. Just as the Council ALWAYS denies the existence of the Reapers, even when they ended up believing you in the previous game. It's Bioware saying "you role-played your Shepard wrong" What I'm saying is that the trilogy SHOULD be regarded as legends. It "fixes" the inconsistencies while at the same time leaving behind the baggage of any ending having to be "true" It's still not the same thing. You only control the PC, not the NPC's around you. The Council or the VS could just be dicks just like anyone you meet on the street could be either a decent chap or a dick regardless of how you approach them. What I'm talking about has, to my knowledge, only happened once. They offered a choice in ME2 to complete that game with Shepard dead and Joker returning the ship to TIM. In all starting options in ME3, Shepard was alive... making it impossible for him/her to have died fighting the Collectors. That choice was invalidated by ME3 canon.
If you want to say the Trilogy is a legend and not a fictional sci-fi series of stories, you go right ahead. . Nothing is preventing you from doing that on your own. It shouldn't bother you then that multiple ending legends exist and that a sequel to ME3 (however far into the future it occurs) is written with enough ambiguity that all those legends could be true. There should be no driving urge to categorically disprove any of them. It still doesn't change what I'm saying. If Bioware moves ahead with an ongoing installment that makes some of the choices impossible for the PC to have made them, they are invalidating those choices. How any of us feels about it is completely irrelevant. Whether it makes any one person angry enough to say they won't buy another game if they do it... or if it makes any one person angry enough to say they won't buy another game if they don't do it (which some people have done)... that's all on them. It still doesn't change what I'm saying. In all cases, Bioware will decide what they feel is best for their franchise. My preference (and it's just that, a preference) is that they continue on with whatever story plans they had made for the franchise when the chose to write Andromeda as a continuation of the Trilogy.
If I were to remake ME3, I would start with that invalid ending of ME2. Shepard and all his/her ME2 squad and crew would be dead. Joker would have returned the SR-2 to TIM and we'd go forward from there with Cerberus leading the fight against the Reapers and Joker as the pilot for an entirely new PC. In other words, we all have to go down the path previously not taken. It would, in effect, be a completely different story than the original ME3.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 29, 2018 19:17:51 GMT
What themikefest mentioned were writing errors and I was responding to him. Writing errors which they chose not to fix. If I were to remake ME3, I would start with that invalid ending of ME2. Shepard and all his/her ME2 squad and crew would be dead. Joker would have returned the SR-2 to TIM and we'd go forward from there with Cerberus leading the fight against the Reapers and Joker as the pilot for an entirely new PC. In other words, we all have to go down the path previously not taken. It would, in effect, be a completely different story than the original ME3. If I were to remake ME3, I would put in the option to work with Cerberus instead of working with the Alliance.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2018 19:38:22 GMT
What themikefest mentioned were writing errors and I was responding to him. Writing errors which they chose not to fix. If I were to remake ME3, I would start with that invalid ending of ME2. Shepard and all his/her ME2 squad and crew would be dead. Joker would have returned the SR-2 to TIM and we'd go forward from there with Cerberus leading the fight against the Reapers and Joker as the pilot for an entirely new PC. In other words, we all have to go down the path previously not taken. It would, in effect, be a completely different story than the original ME3. If I were to remake ME3, I would put in the option to work with Cerberus instead of working with the Alliance. Still writing errors, none the less. Mistakes, not an intentional invalidation of a choice... which declaring a canon ending to ME3 would be.
As I said, I would take the path that became invalid with the first ME3... call it ME:A (Mass Effect: Antithesis). The cleanest way to start a ME2 sequel with Cerberus is to give TIM back his ship and put him solidly in Control... and see where the story goes from a completely fresh direction. Could make for the most interesting new story... beats rehashing the old ME3 just with a predetermined and predictable outcome (if you get your way - destroy, Shep lives... boring.) If you give players an option to be with either, then the story will likely follow the same basic outline it did in ME3. With only having the option to work for Cerberus and not being hampered by being Shepard at all, the story can go off in a totally new direction... exploring new places in the galaxy, etc. Anything Shepard is said to have done in the old ME3 would then be a myth (i.e. false legend). I'm told I can view the OT as a legend and that makes everything OK... well, goose and gander... what's fair for me is fair for you to. Shep died on the Collector Base, everything beyond that never happened people just dreamed it up as a legend. TIM and Joker are leading the charge to fight the Reapers.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 29, 2018 20:19:26 GMT
]Still writing errors, none the less. Mistakes, not an intentional invalidation of a choice... which declaring a canon ending to ME3 would be. ] If it wasn't intentional, then why haven't they fixed it? Either way, as minor as those choices are, Bioware made them invalid.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2018 20:47:51 GMT
]Still writing errors, none the less. Mistakes, not an intentional invalidation of a choice... which declaring a canon ending to ME3 would be. ] If it wasn't intentional, then why haven't they fixed it? Either way, as minor as those choices are, Bioware made them invalid. There are numerous errors in a multitude of games by different devs that never get fixed. That does not indicate that the mistakes were made intentionally.
Also, to what degree are they invalid... Is it absolutely impossible for Garrus and Kirrahe to have met under other circumstances while Shepard was off chasing Saren and so know each other's names? When Garrus refers to all the times he save Shepard in ME3, isn't it possible that he might be referring to those battles that occur within ME3 itself or that he might conceivably exaggerate things to tease Shepard? Those may not be ideal explanations but they are not absolutely outside the realm of possibility.
Conversely, it is absolutely impossible for a Shepard and up to 14 or so others to have died on the Collector base and yet live on to defeat the Reapers in ME3. It would be absolutely impossible for Shepard to have destroyed the Reapers and to then to see synthesized Reapers in a direct sequel to ME3.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 1, 2019 22:36:34 GMT
I think the solutions to the ME3 ending problem are relatively simple but are sure to be unpopular. For my part if a new Mass Effect is made I'd like it to take place after the Reaper War and I'd be fine with just about any explanation used to nullify ME3's ending. To be fair, I never played ME3 so I have no investment in it. I just think it is badly written anyway and that the universe as it was established prior to ME3 is too interesting to just throw away. So, I think the following methods could be used:
1.) Destroy is canon
The Reapers are dead and all the synthetics in the galaxy died with them. There is no reason geth and EDI can't be rebuilt, though the rebuilding process will likely mean the "individual" units from before aren't quite the same. The Mass Relays have been destroyed but those can be put back together too. The result is that for an unspecified amount of time the various clusters and solar systems in the Milky Way have been cut off. How much time has passed? I think the idea that the galaxy is in a new dark age with many independent nations and empires springing up from the collapse of unified galactic society. Another facet of this ending is that the survivors of the grand fleet would have had to take shelter on Earth, the planet itself likely having been reduced to ruin and anarchy as debris (including element zero), rained down. A kind of post-apocalypse Mass Effect.
2.) A more simple ending is to just pick Control and say that the Reapers disappeared after Shepard activated the Crucible. They just flew off somewhere and nobody is quite sure where. Maybe they returned to dark space? Maybe they disposed of themselves galactic core? Nobody knows but we're just glad they are gone. From here the Milky Way just carries on in whatever way it logically should have following the Reaper War. You'll have to nullify the Geth/Quarian and Krogan/Genohage decisions. That's not hard. You can say that Rannoch's start went nova due to Dark Energy as was foreshadowed in ME2 with Haestrom. The residents of the Perseus Veil had to flee and to merely stay alive the quarians and geth made peace, or at least most of them did. Some geth still wonder around separate from organics and some quarians refuse to have anything to do with geth. So you get a combination of all the Rannoch outcomes here. The genophage we can presume mutated or some salarian special ops group made sure to apply it again after the war.
This kind of nullification surely angers people but I see no alternative.
3.) Just write some totally new event immediately following the Reaper War that changed everything. It could have been caused by some unknown race, or the Leviathans, or maybe it turned out the Crucible had only a temporary effect of some kind? Use your imagination. It's a handwave to justify writing a new story that will hopefully grip people and allow them to move on and forget about how ME3 ended.
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Post by Phantom on Jan 1, 2019 23:24:40 GMT
just curious, what would be a out of left field PC to come after Shepard for the ME Milk way games?
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 1, 2019 23:57:57 GMT
just curious, what would be a out of left field PC to come after Shepard for the ME Milk way games? The Warden.
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 2, 2019 0:03:05 GMT
I think the solutions to the ME3 ending problem are relatively simple but are sure to be unpopular. For my part if a new Mass Effect is made I'd like it to take place after the Reaper War and I'd be fine with just about any explanation used to nullify ME3's ending. To be fair, I never played ME3 so I have no investment in it. I just think it is badly written anyway and that the universe as it was established prior to ME3 is too interesting to just throw away. So, I think the following methods could be used: 1.) Destroy is canon The Reapers are dead and all the synthetics in the galaxy died with them. There is no reason geth and EDI can't be rebuilt, though the rebuilding process will likely mean the "individual" units from before aren't quite the same. The Mass Relays have been destroyed but those can be put back together too. The result is that for an unspecified amount of time the various clusters and solar systems in the Milky Way have been cut off. How much time has passed? I think the idea that the galaxy is in a new dark age with many independent nations and empires springing up from the collapse of unified galactic society. Another facet of this ending is that the survivors of the grand fleet would have had to take shelter on Earth, the planet itself likely having been reduced to ruin and anarchy as debris (including element zero), rained down. A kind of post-apocalypse Mass Effect. 2.) A more simple ending is to just pick Control and say that the Reapers disappeared after Shepard activated the Crucible. They just flew off somewhere and nobody is quite sure where. Maybe they returned to dark space? Maybe they disposed of themselves galactic core? Nobody knows but we're just glad they are gone. From here the Milky Way just carries on in whatever way it logically should have following the Reaper War. You'll have to nullify the Geth/Quarian and Krogan/Genohage decisions. That's not hard. You can say that Rannoch's start went nova due to Dark Energy as was foreshadowed in ME2 with Haestrom. The residents of the Perseus Veil had to flee and to merely stay alive the quarians and geth made peace, or at least most of them did. Some geth still wonder around separate from organics and some quarians refuse to have anything to do with geth. So you get a combination of all the Rannoch outcomes here. The genophage we can presume mutated or some salarian special ops group made sure to apply it again after the war. This kind of nullification surely angers people but I see no alternative. 3.) Just write some totally new event immediately following the Reaper War that changed everything. It could have been caused by some unknown race, or the Leviathans, or maybe it turned out the Crucible had only a temporary effect of some kind? Use your imagination. It's a handwave to justify writing a new story that will hopefully grip people and allow them to move on and forget about how ME3 ended. BioWare can do a lot of things, but as much as people around here thing it will be no big deal I am just not sure of that overall with the online narrative. People went ballistic with the cinematic issues with Andromeda and I just cannot see there not being a reaction like that if people don't approve of what BioWare does. While saying "just ignore them" these are the people that are still online to every article about BioWare talking about how much trouble as a company they are in and proclaiming after Anthem bombs BioWare is dead. Maybe if the discussion was more then "woo hoo we won Andromeda failed" and people complaining about how BioWare isn't catering to their specific tastes, BioWare might take a risk with making something canon, I just don't see how they want to take any risk more then they have to anytime after Andromeda that could make a game unprofitable.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 2, 2019 0:03:50 GMT
just curious, what would be a out of left field PC to come after Shepard for the ME Milk way games? I don't think a new story needs to star Shepard. As for what it would be? I don't know. I could brainstorm about that all night and come up with lots of different ideas. As I said it could be the Leviathans, attempting to assert control over the galaxy now that the Reapers are out of the way. It could be that the Reaper War and activation of the catalyst was noticed from another galaxy by some technobabble and they have come to investigate. Perhaps the aftermath of the Reaper War has diminished the established races enough that previously weak and benign species suddenly see a means to assert their power and expand their influence? Prehaps the Crucible awoke some other ancient beings that have inhabited the galaxy all this time, beings even more advanced than the Reapers? Maybe some madman or madmen have reactivated the Catalyst once more, modifying it, and using it to attempt to shape the galaxy in their image? BioWare can do a lot of things, but as much as people around here thing it will be no big deal I am just not sure of that overall with the online narrative. People went ballistic with the cinematic issues with Andromeda and I just cannot see there not being a reaction like that if people don't approve of what BioWare does. While saying "just ignore them" these are the people that are still online to every article about BioWare talking about how much trouble as a company they are in and proclaiming after Anthem bombs BioWare is dead. Maybe if the discussion was more then "woo hoo we won Andromeda failed" and people complaining about how BioWare isn't catering to their specific tastes, BioWare might take a risk with making something canon, I just don't see how they want to take any risk more then they have to anytime after Andromeda that could make a game unprofitable. It all depends on how good the new story is and how good the marketing is. The final product actually being high quality and not a buggy mess like Andromeda goes a long way too. As well, people will probably react better to returning to the universe they know and love rather than scrapping it in favor of a new one, which is what Andromeda did. Lastly, I think most people didn't really like ME3's endings so I think that if the above are all done right, that most people will be willing to overlook a new game that retcons away the Catalyst and his color-magic. It's all theoretical, of-course. Though you should keep in mind that the most vocal voices aren't necessarily the majority and at the end of the day all the publish cares about is the game making money. Let people grumble if they must, as long as they PAY.
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
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Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 2, 2019 3:31:49 GMT
It all depends on how good the new story is and how good the marketing is. The final product actually being high quality and not a buggy mess like Andromeda goes a long way too. As well, people will probably react better to returning to the universe they know and love rather than scrapping it in favor of a new one, which is what Andromeda did. Lastly, I think most people didn't really like ME3's endings so I think that if the above are all done right, that most people will be willing to overlook a new game that retcons away the Catalyst and his color-magic. It's all theoretical, of-course. Though you should keep in mind that the most vocal voices aren't necessarily the majority and at the end of the day all the publish cares about is the game making money. Let people grumble if they must, as long as they PAY. That is the problem though, its about how people perceive what is wrong with the game. Frankly its things like the buggy Andromeda was, I had no real different exposure to bugs and problems of games of that type. I even had The Witcher 3 corrupt my save games after I forced myself to play for a few hours and was never able to get back to that point and going by the patch notes for the game there were plenty of other problems. Now you go by the internet narrative there were zero bugs with the game and it was perfect with no issues compared to Bethesda making less buggy games then Andromeda. I don't think BioWare could release anything that people would claim the story was bad or that "it looks like three generations ago" or some other thing that they can try and convince everyone that the problems they see even if they are overblowing them.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 2, 2019 5:48:28 GMT
I don't think BioWare could release anything that people would claim the story was bad or that "it looks like three generations ago" or some other thing that they can try and convince everyone that the problems they see even if they are overblowing them. Plenty of people thought Mass Effect 2, 3, and Andromeda had bad stories. I'm not really certain I understand what your point is, though. I think that a good marketing campaign to sell a solid game with tight and engaging gameplay, and with an equally good plot-hook could be successful. I don't know what Bioware will choose to do, nor what they are being pressured to do by their Publisher, EA. This is all hypothetical. Maybe they'll make a prequel or an alternate universe? I don't think a sequel to Andromeda is too likely because the game was not a success. ME3 got a lot of criticism but it had a lot of fans too and it was the sequel to two popular Mass Effect games.
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
Posts: 5,899 Likes: 8,927
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Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
5,899
Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
September 2016
sanunes
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 2, 2019 14:53:15 GMT
I don't think BioWare could release anything that people would claim the story was bad or that "it looks like three generations ago" or some other thing that they can try and convince everyone that the problems they see even if they are overblowing them. Plenty of people thought Mass Effect 2, 3, and Andromeda had bad stories. I'm not really certain I understand what your point is, though. I think that a good marketing campaign to sell a solid game with tight and engaging gameplay, and with an equally good plot-hook could be successful. I don't know what Bioware will choose to do, nor what they are being pressured to do by their Publisher, EA. This is all hypothetical. Maybe they'll make a prequel or an alternate universe? I don't think a sequel to Andromeda is too likely because the game was not a success. ME3 got a lot of criticism but it had a lot of fans too and it was the sequel to two popular Mass Effect games. People are going to look for a reason to complain about the game to try and damage it, I think going for anything that requires making something canon is going to be a lot of ammo for people to try and sink the game like they did with the few really bad animations in Andromeda and sold them as representative of the entire game.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 3, 2019 2:37:07 GMT
People are going to look for a reason to complain about the game to try and damage it, I think going for anything that requires making something canon is going to be a lot of ammo for people to try and sink the game like they did with the few really bad animations in Andromeda and sold them as representative of the entire game. Andromeda had, and has, many problems. It was a hard-sell from the beginning because it was basically a soft-reboot of the franchise. Nobody really wanted that. We'd become attached to the characters, places, lore, and familiar setting of the Milky Way. Many of us were still eagerly anticipating really getting to properly explore the Milky Way. How about a hub world that is a turian or a salarian colony? What about actually getting to see the interior of quarian liveship and interact with everyday quarians living their cramped, ramshackle lives there? How about maintaining and defending a base on Tuchanka with Clan Urdot, a base that has a garage with vehicles being worked on, a training ground where young krogan learn the ropes, and a market and arena where krogan trade and bet on gladiatorial matches? Certainly Andromeda had potential to do interesting things but it was throwing away a lot of potential the Milky Way has yet to tap. As Casey Hudson has said in interviews you could tell a thousand stories on the Citadel alone. Or on Bekenstein, or Omega, or Korlus, ect... That was why Andromeda had an uphill battle. That and the unpopular ending to ME3. There will always be negative voices though and so the question is how loud and how numerous are those voices? Personally, I think that a game with a good story and design, with proper development time to iron out all the issues and refine it into something polished, will have no trouble gaining an audience.
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
Posts: 5,899 Likes: 8,927
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Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
5,899
Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
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sanunes
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 3, 2019 5:25:41 GMT
People are going to look for a reason to complain about the game to try and damage it, I think going for anything that requires making something canon is going to be a lot of ammo for people to try and sink the game like they did with the few really bad animations in Andromeda and sold them as representative of the entire game. Andromeda had, and has, many problems. It was a hard-sell from the beginning because it was basically a soft-reboot of the franchise. Nobody really wanted that. We'd become attached to the characters, places, lore, and familiar setting of the Milky Way. Many of us were still eagerly anticipating really getting to properly explore the Milky Way. How about a hub world that is a turian or a salarian colony? What about actually getting to see the interior of quarian liveship and interact with everyday quarians living their cramped, ramshackle lives there? How about maintaining and defending a base on Tuchanka with Clan Urdot, a base that has a garage with vehicles being worked on, a training ground where young krogan learn the ropes, and a market and arena where krogan trade and bet on gladiatorial matches? Certainly Andromeda had potential to do interesting things but it was throwing away a lot of potential the Milky Way has yet to tap. As Casey Hudson has said in interviews you could tell a thousand stories on the Citadel alone. Or on Bekenstein, or Omega, or Korlus, ect... That was why Andromeda had an uphill battle. That and the unpopular ending to ME3. There will always be negative voices though and so the question is how loud and how numerous are those voices? Personally, I think that a game with a good story and design, with proper development time to iron out all the issues and refine it into something polished, will have no trouble gaining an audience. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it won't find an audience. I just think they are going to try to avoid making more controversy for the people that scream the loudest, for even with Andromeda I still don't think what a lot of people seem to think is accurate its just that the noise around it was so loud people take that noise as fact. I think for some people going down the route of a soft reboot is not any different then when they make elements of the story canon and for BioWare the decision was a choice of the lesser of two evils. Personally for me I am glad Shepard and crew were replaced, we had an attachment to them and that means there was baggage that they had to keep incorporating into the games. I think Mass Effect 3 showed to me they needed to do an edit of the cast of the game for they were just tokens in the game because they had to account for any potential death scenarios and that also put added problems into the mix. It to me made Liara an exposition machine because she was pretty much the only one that could say all that dialogue without having to record it multiple times for different people to say it.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 3, 2019 5:34:01 GMT
Personally for me I am glad Shepard and crew were replaced, we had an attachment to them and that means there was baggage that they had to keep incorporating into the games. I think Mass Effect 3 showed to me they needed to do an edit of the cast of the game for they were just tokens in the game because they had to account for any potential death scenarios and that also put added problems into the mix. It to me made Liara an exposition machine because she was pretty much the only one that could say all that dialogue without having to record it multiple times for different people to say it. I agree that the protagonist and support cast should have been retired in place of new leads, but I didn't and don't like the lore for such a rich setting just being thrown out. The setting deserves better than ME3 and there is still much that could be done with it, I say.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 15, 2019 21:46:36 GMT
There is but to many people would get but hurt over it so no. Fuck 'em I say! Fuck 'em and do a thing. A unique thing. Oh I love this saying.
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Hope for the best, plan for the worst
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Post by griffith82 on Mar 16, 2019 4:41:35 GMT
This has been brought up before. Problem is, as I see it, that we'll be outright getting a remake of the MET. Once you open the door to things not being concrete, we may as well throw out everything. The trilogy itself is no longer canon since every detail is up for grabs. I know a lot of people are in for a remake but understand that that's what you're asking for. If throwing the baby out with the bath water gets us away from Andromeda, I'm all for it. A remake with concrete lore is what we need. At the very least start again beginning with ME1. ME1 laid down the foundation begin again with that. Remakes and sequels to the OT are terrible ideas. Dont like Andromeda? Fine but that is the way forward.
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