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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Dec 31, 2018 20:32:28 GMT
I honestly think a big difference between then and now. Is that game developers and producers now are far more loud-mouthed about their policies than they have been in the past. This means that now people look at games as a political statement and people tend to divide at politics, by making a statement about how a game or a movie or any kind of product shall now support a specific kind of politics it immediately opens up a whole can of worms. Above, I think, is where the biggest problem lies, because as you mentioned no one really gave much of a s--- back in Origins, as a matter of fact, very few people truly gave a s--- about any games and their attempts at making political statements. It also kinda proves that one of John Epler's various statements which has lead to a plethora of what 'count Catwell' mentioned: "It is easier to ignore the politics when you agree with it" is kinda bullshit. Most people who play video games, do not in reality, actually care about a political stance in a video game. What they care about is having a great game. We have some who care about representation and all that, fair enough. But the people who are usually blamed for this and that? They don't really care. Lara Croft, Tomb Raider, was quite popular too before this entire debacle of politics in games (and representation) being extremely important. Now, it is not to justify what count Catwell said. But it might just give people a better understanding why the climate is what it is today. Or, well, it is my take on it at least I recall when DAO came out, I didn't even realize the setup was viewed as something special and politically relevant by some. For me, it was just how that fictional world worked. And that's that only way something like this can ever work for me, since when I play I want to be in the fictional world. These days, as you say, the voices are much louder and it's annoying and intrusive.
Well, game was amazing and the world and lore was new and incredibly interesting to explore. My eyes gets watery when I think back to when I played it the first time.... I was in such awe.
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 31, 2018 20:41:01 GMT
I recall when DAO came out, I didn't even realize the setup was viewed as something special and politically relevant by some. For me, it was just how that fictional world worked. And that's that only way something like this can ever work for me, since when I play I want to be in the fictional world. These days, as you say, the voices are much louder and it's annoying and intrusive.
Well, game was amazing and the world and lore was new and incredibly interesting to explore. My eyes gets watery when I think back to when I played it the first time.... I was in such awe. I recall I knew after the first sentence spoken in the intro that I wouldn't like the Chantry. My hope of a Tevinter that will turn out to be more than an Evil Empire goes back to that moment. I want to see mages who are powerful, innovative and who move things forward for their civilization, *and* are somewhat responsible.
Oh, and of course nine years later I still don't like the Chantry. I had my issues with my religious role in DAI, too. The HoF is still my favorite DA protagonist.
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Post by taarsidathanhalsaam on Dec 31, 2018 20:42:31 GMT
Thats only if the “problem” in question is “game-developers talking about their political beliefs on twitter or wherever it is that people are reading them”. If that truly is the problem people are so up in arms about then fair enough, thats a new problem thats only recently become a thing. But these same devs would have put these same “political statements” in their games even in the past, they just wouldn’t have bothered talking about it on twitter. I think we agreed earlier that this is how it happened for Dragon Age: Origins? And then once these “political statements” like puting this or that minority or LGBT person in the game was included, then some media pundit would have made a stink about it, and the players would be having this same argument about politics. Basically, I’m just disagreeing with the good Count Catwell’s insinuation that only recently has the dev’s political beliefs/statements been inserted into the series. Indeed. That was my point, back then the game developers themselves didn't really announce their political beliefs out loud. And because Origins as an example had political statements in it, I concluded that most gamers in actuality don't really care about these statements, but they just care about having a great game. I see: what you’re saying makes sense, definitely! Its like seeing a behind-the-scenes shot of a movie being filmed with greenscreen behind the actors, and after that you can’t really enjoy the CGI movie anymore, since you remember how it was made? So the difference for people now is that even if the same product is in front of their eyes they know that the *reason* they made Zevran or Leliana bisexual is because the writer believes more LGBT representation should be in games, so it feels less like they’re real people to us: we’ve seen how the sausage gets made, so to speak?
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 31, 2018 20:53:07 GMT
So the difference for people now is that even if the same product is in front of their eyes they know that the *reason* they made Zevran or Leliana bisexual is because the writer believes more LGBT representation should be in games, so it feels less like they’re real people to us: we’ve seen how the sausage gets made, so to spea? This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It's like saying the *reason* they made Alistair or Morrigan straight is because the writer believes straight people should be in games, so that somehow makes them less real or authentic..?
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 31, 2018 20:53:31 GMT
Indeed. That was my point, back then the game developers themselves didn't really announce their political beliefs out loud. And because Origins as an example had political statements in it, I concluded that most gamers in actuality don't really care about these statements, but they just care about having a great game. I see: what you’re saying makes sense, definitely! Its like seeing a behind-the-scenes shot of a movie being filmed with greenscreen behind the actors, and after that you can’t really enjoy the CGI movie anymore, since you remember how it was made? So the difference for people now is that even if the same product is in front of their eyes they know that the *reason* they made Zevran or Leliana bisexual is because the writer believes more LGBT representation should be in games, so it feels less like they’re real people to us: we’ve seen how the sausage gets made, so to speak? I don't know.....it depends on how natural a characters' presence feels. I didn't have any adverse impressions from companions in DAI, or from anyone regarding sexuality or sex, as opposed to another I could name - but won't because I'm tired of being mistaken.
In general, if a character seems to fit in the world, it tends not to be a problem. Someone visibly new and unprecedented, that's going to pull me out of the game if there is no in-game rationale for it.
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Dec 31, 2018 20:54:23 GMT
Indeed. That was my point, back then the game developers themselves didn't really announce their political beliefs out loud. And because Origins as an example had political statements in it, I concluded that most gamers in actuality don't really care about these statements, but they just care about having a great game. I see: what you’re saying makes sense, definitely! Its like seeing a behind-the-scenes shot of a movie being filmed with greenscreen behind the actors, and after that you can’t really enjoy the CGI movie anymore, since you remember how it was made? So the difference for people now is that even if the same product is in front of their eyes they know that the *reason* they made Zevran or Leliana bisexual is because the writer believes more LGBT representation should be in games, so it feels less like they’re real people to us: we’ve seen how the sausage gets made, so to speak? I would not know the EXACT reason for people. I am just stating what I think could be the issue based on what I have perceived across all kinds of media. Everytime someone have decided to open their mouth and make their politics a talking/selling point for their product, people with opposite politic beliefs will look at it, pick it apart and start yelling about it. That is usually how it goes.
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Post by phoray on Dec 31, 2018 20:55:51 GMT
I just want to be in a world that recognizes and has strong opinions about my being a female elven mage that killed that one person but spared the other.
Recognition, immediate, even if shallow, from the people around me that I exist in that world.
If it takes a Female Jesus leading God-hates-you world where the default seems to be bisexuality rather than heterosexuality... all the better?
I've disliked the inclusion of Bi/Gay hate in the world. That isn't the world I want to play in, where Dorian's father tries to make him straight because he doesn't like gayness and wants Dorian in the closet rather than because he just wants Dorian to have babies with this one chick. That's too close to our world, that is not the world that was sold to me in Origins. Lore says this, but you wanted to shove your after school special in my face and now we have a whole side companion mission that clashes with the Lore I like. Where sexuality doesn't matter, people are chill and you can boink whoever you like. meh
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Post by taarsidathanhalsaam on Dec 31, 2018 20:58:57 GMT
Well, if it isn’t about Bioware’s inclusion of minorities and LGBT folks, or females in positions of traditionally masculine power, then I really don’t know what exactly people are taking issue with when they complain about bioware’s putting social/political stuff in their games.
Is it the general anti-slavery, anti-racism message? I thought most of the world that has the time to play games was in agreement about those.
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Dec 31, 2018 21:01:35 GMT
I just want to be in a world that recognizes and has strong opinions about my being a female elven mage that killed that one person but spared the other. Recognition, immediate, even if shallow, from the people around me that I exist in that world. If it takes a Female Jesus leading God-hates-you world where the default seems to be bisexuality rather than heterosexuality... all the better? I've disliked the inclusion of Bi/Gay hate in the world. That isn't the world I want to play in, where Dorian's father tries to make him straight because he doesn't like gayness and wants Dorian in the closet rather than because he just wants Dorian to have babies with this one chick. That's too close to our world, that is not the world that was sold to me in Origins. Lore says this, but you wanted to shove your after school special in my face and now we have a whole side companion mission that clashes with the Lore I like. Where sexuality doesn't matter, people are chill and you can boink whoever you like. meh As far as I am aware, that is mostly just Tevinter in a nutshell. As was stated in Dragon Age: The World of Thedas volume 1, a book released back in 2013. Whilst same-sex marriages and being a transgender were not illegal, it was a cause for scandal, so same sex-marriages among the higher ups were usually hidden and same goes for the transgenders, although Maevaris Tilani decided it was ridicolous and decided to stand out anyhow.
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Post by phoray on Dec 31, 2018 21:03:37 GMT
As far as I am aware, that is mostly just Tevinter in a nutshell. Then color me far less excited about going to Tevinter in the next game. A country that is apparently our world, with slavery and blood magic.
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Dec 31, 2018 21:04:07 GMT
Well, if it isn’t about Bioware’s inclusion of minorities and LGBT folks, or females in positions of traditionally masculine power, then I really don’t know what exactly people are taking issue with when they complain about bioware’s putting social/political stuff in their games. Is it the general anti-slavery, anti-racism message? I thought most of the world that has the time to play games was in agreement about those. /shrug People might feel it is shoehorned. Forced diversity and all that kind of thing. Those are some of the reasons I have heard, but the group of people who hate it are so vast. There is a reason i generally advice game developers and producers to just keep quiet about their political beliefs, it can really hurt a product.
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 31, 2018 21:08:00 GMT
Well, if it isn’t about Bioware’s inclusion of minorities and LGBT folks, or females in positions of traditionally masculine power, then I really don’t know what exactly people are taking issue with when they complain about bioware’s putting social/political stuff in their games. Is it the general anti-slavery, anti-racism message? I thought most of the world that has the time to play games was in agreement about those. I'll give you an example: late in the ME trilogy, the organic/synthetic conflict was sometimes perceptibly regarded as an analogy to racism which lead, among other things, to Synthesis being sold as the good ending eventually. In order to do this, the writers had to downplay the fundamental philosophical issues at the bottom of the synthetics vs. organics conflict, and they did this, among other things, by changing established lore and giving the geth organic-style individuality, which as a main point of the lore so far, they had not had until then (that it was the Reapers that gave it to them didn't help). Thus, the writers took an interesting sci-fi concept and immeasureably cheapened it by bringing in real-world politics. I found that extremely annoying and played a big part in my dissatifaction with ME3's ending, especially since this wasn't the only instance of noticeable bending the lore beyond the breaking point.
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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by House Targaryen on Dec 31, 2018 21:08:20 GMT
I know when I write/develop a character in a story, their sexuality is far from what I'm thinking about. Probably the same with game developers. Can we give this sex nonsense a rest and discuss Features and Improvements? There's already a romance topic here.
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Post by taarsidathanhalsaam on Dec 31, 2018 21:12:14 GMT
Well, if it isn’t about Bioware’s inclusion of minorities and LGBT folks, or females in positions of traditionally masculine power, then I really don’t know what exactly people are taking issue with when they complain about bioware’s putting social/political stuff in their games. Is it the general anti-slavery, anti-racism message? I thought most of the world that has the time to play games was in agreement about those. /shrug People might feel it is shoehorned. Forced diversity and all that kind of thing. Those are some of the reasons I have heard, but the group of people who hate it are so vast. There is a reason i generally advice game developers and producers to just keep quiet about their political beliefs, it can really hurt a product. Yeah sorry if I’m sounding like I was pressuring you to explain or speak for all these many, varied people. I appreciate how candid and sincere you’ve been throughout this whole discussion, and your viewpoint has given me a lot to think about! I’ve just been a gamer for a long time and I’ve seen lots of different outrage groups pop up. In my experience at least, the ones to look out for are the groups that get mad at creators for putting certain things *in* their games, whether it is gratuitious violence/fanservice or certain types/demographics of people as characters.
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Post by taarsidathanhalsaam on Dec 31, 2018 21:16:55 GMT
Well, if it isn’t about Bioware’s inclusion of minorities and LGBT folks, or females in positions of traditionally masculine power, then I really don’t know what exactly people are taking issue with when they complain about bioware’s putting social/political stuff in their games. Is it the general anti-slavery, anti-racism message? I thought most of the world that has the time to play games was in agreement about those. I'll give you an example: late in the ME trilogy, the organic/synthetic conflict was sometimes perceptibly regarded as an analogy to racism which lead, among other things, to Synthesis being sold as the good ending eventually. In order to do this, the writers had to downplay the fundamental philosophical issues at the bottom of the synthetics vs. organics conflict, and they did this, among other things, by changing established lore and giving the geth organic-style individuality, which as a main point of the lore so far, they had not had until then (that it was the Reapers that gave it to them didn't help). Thus, the writers took an interesting sci-fi concept and immeasureably cheapened it by bringing in real-world politics. I found that extremely annoying and played a big part in my dissatifaction with ME3's ending, especially since this wasn't the only instance of noticeable bending the lore beyond the breaking point.
Oh, so it IS the inclusion of the anti-racism message. Only... were the Geth really meant to be a racism analogy? If so, its a really bad one what with the Geth all sincerely wanting to be servile to the Quarians and only rebelling once the quarians tried to eliminate them. I actually thought they had individuality all the way back in the first mass effect... *definitely* by the time ME2’s Legion and EDI came along. What do you mean by “organic style individuality”? Edit: remember the first Mass Effect’s side quests with sentient AI? Those were really intriguing, and showed that AI were possessed of their own purpose, strange sense of morality/logic, and also a drive to preserve their own continued existence. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Citadel:_Signal_Tracking
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Post by duskwanderer on Dec 31, 2018 21:36:03 GMT
1.) I'd like to see more skills. I liked the "history" perks you could take in Inquisition, and think that should be expanded on. Perhaps something for Elven history (elves get free, but others can buy), dwarven (similar), Chantry, and so on and so forth.
2.) Ignore the vast environments: It's not something BioWARE stands out with. You can give me a hub for quest, but focus on on-rails missions. That's what they do best. Give me quest clues and tidbits that start there. Reward me for exploring.
3.) Give me multiple options to approach situations through conversation. Even if I won't pick an option, the fact that I choose not to means something.
4.) Make as few taboos as possible. Do not set arbitrary constraints on me (or, if you must, do not make them appear arbitrary)
5.) No SJW bullcrap. If you believe the goal is to "celebrate diversity and differences", then the only place you should be is out the door. If you can't write a character by going on a heavy-handed diatribe, then don't write them. Thedas isn't the real world, don't pretend it is.
6.) When it comes to character creation, just focus on facial features and tones. You can ignore makeup options, weird hair colors, and whatnot: Modders will do that for you. Just focus on making a beautiful face. And shrink the noses, they always come off as big, especially on the side. When it comes to hair, what is important is styles. Males and females have different hairstyles.
7.) Let me hear some songs. Elizaveta's ditties were great, give me more.
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 31, 2018 21:41:35 GMT
I'll give you an example: late in the ME trilogy, the organic/synthetic conflict was sometimes perceptibly regarded as an analogy to racism which lead, among other things, to Synthesis being sold as the good ending eventually. In order to do this, the writers had to downplay the fundamental philosophical issues at the bottom of the synthetics vs. organics conflict, and they did this, among other things, by changing established lore and giving the geth organic-style individuality, which as a main point of the lore so far, they had not had until then (that it was the Reapers that gave it to them didn't help). Thus, the writers took an interesting sci-fi concept and immeasureably cheapened it by bringing in real-world politics. I found that extremely annoying and played a big part in my dissatifaction with ME3's ending, especially since this wasn't the only instance of noticeable bending the lore beyond the breaking point.
Oh, so it IS the inclusion of the anti-racism message. Only... were the Geth really meant to be a racism analogy? If so, its a really bad one what with the Geth all sincerely wanting to be servile to the Quarians and only rebelling once the quarians tried to eliminate them. I actually thought they had individuality all the way back in the first mass effect... *definitely* by the time ME2’s Legion and EDI came along. What do you mean by “organic style individuality”? Edit: remember the first Mass Effect’s side quests with sentient AI? Those were really intriguing, and showed that AI were possessed of their own purpose, strange sense of morality/logic, and also a drive to preserve their own continued existence. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Citadel:_Signal_TrackingIn ME2, Legion explained the peculiarities of geth cognition and intelligence. It made the geth different in an interesting way. The thing is, if you want to include an anti-racism message at this point and apply it to this specific species, you need to make it so that such fundamental differences don't exist, and they did exactly that in ME3. It's not so much the message itself but the twisting of existing and fascinating lore in order to make it viable. I'm reminded of Tolkien's often-quoted different between applicability and allegory. The way ME3 did it felt too much like "purposeful domination of the author".
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 31, 2018 21:44:20 GMT
As for features, I want a city. A big, bustling metropolis with lots of people and all the locations you typically find in a city. Think Novigrad, only with, for instance, Tevinter culture as the background. DAI was beautiful, but almost all the regions were nothing but scenery. That's not enough for me.
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Dec 31, 2018 21:47:22 GMT
Tolkien's often-quoted different between applicability and allegory “I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.” J.R.R. Tolkien That?
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Post by taarsidathanhalsaam on Dec 31, 2018 21:47:58 GMT
Oh, so it IS the inclusion of the anti-racism message. Only... were the Geth really meant to be a racism analogy? If so, its a really bad one what with the Geth all sincerely wanting to be servile to the Quarians and only rebelling once the quarians tried to eliminate them. I actually thought they had individuality all the way back in the first mass effect... *definitely* by the time ME2’s Legion and EDI came along. What do you mean by “organic style individuality”? Edit: remember the first Mass Effect’s side quests with sentient AI? Those were really intriguing, and showed that AI were possessed of their own purpose, strange sense of morality/logic, and also a drive to preserve their own continued existence. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Citadel:_Signal_TrackingIn ME2, Legion explained the peculiarities of geth cognition and intelligence. It made the geth different in an interesting way. The thing is, if you want to include an anti-racism message at this point and apply it to this specific species, you need to make it so that such fundamental differences don't exist, and they did exactly that in ME3. It's not so much the message itself but the twisting of existing and fascinating lore in order to make it viable. I'm reminded of Tolkien's often-quoted different between applicability and allegory. The way ME3 did it felt too much like "purposeful domination of the author". Yeah, I absolutely agree that if they wanted an anti-racism message they should have used any race OTHER than the geth for this. Lots of the citadel races were just “humans with a quirk” so they would have been able to do this iwthout overrwriting previous lore. I guess I never thought the Synthesis ending was meant to be interpreted this way... so does that mean we are supposed to AGREE with Starchild’s statement that “the created will always rebel gainst their creators”, and that synthesis was theonly answer? What does this mean in the context of the racism message? Is the writer suggesting that all races in the world must somehow fuse into one homogenous, indistinguishable mass? how would that even work, lol
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 31, 2018 21:54:46 GMT
Tolkien's often-quoted different between applicability and allegory “I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.” J.R.R. Tolkien That? Exactly. IMO, it's something every aspiring writer should take to heart.
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"A person of any mental quality has ideas of his own. This is common sense." Franz Liszt
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Dec 31, 2018 22:32:14 GMT
1. Maybe it's not quite a big deal but some children NPCs running around in cities would be nice, it feels artificial without them. DAO always felt more real to me because of it. 2. I would like more story elements tied into all of the different zones they have.
3. Varied reactions to some war table missions would be nice if they have them, It felt very strange for my Lavellan to not have a reaction when his clan got wiped out. Better yet, if the missions are important enough let us play them out with our PC. 4. Which once again reminds me, fix the male elf body. I will not stop asking for this. 5. A better CC than Andromeda...
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Post by colfoley on Jan 1, 2019 4:16:44 GMT
1. Maybe it's not quite a big deal but some children NPCs running around in cities would be nice, it feels artificial without them. DAO always felt more real to me because of it. 2. I would like more story elements tied into all of the different zones they have.
3. Varied reactions to some war table missions would be nice if they have them, It felt very strange for my Lavellan to not have a reaction when his clan got wiped out. Better yet, if the missions are important enough let us play them out with our PC. 4. Which once again reminds me, fix the male elf body. I will not stop asking for this. 5. A better CC than Andromeda... as much as I liked it i dont think there should be another war table.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 1, 2019 4:46:12 GMT
1. Maybe it's not quite a big deal but some children NPCs running around in cities would be nice, it feels artificial without them. DAO always felt more real to me because of it. 2. I would like more story elements tied into all of the different zones they have.
3. Varied reactions to some war table missions would be nice if they have them, It felt very strange for my Lavellan to not have a reaction when his clan got wiped out. Better yet, if the missions are important enough let us play them out with our PC. 4. Which once again reminds me, fix the male elf body. I will not stop asking for this. 5. A better CC than Andromeda... Amen. A. A more complex combat system than damage multiplier stacking against health sponges, such as weather influencing visibility, and mobility, spell usage, status effects that can't easily be ignored, and adaptive enemy AI. B. A passive day/night cycle. C. Non static city/town hubs who's denizens ai are programmed to to be more reactive to their environment, pc actions, and performs daily tasks based on a schedule. D. More fluid movement/combat animations and better collision detection. E. Less resources spent on animating sex scenes, and romances in general. Ride the Bull was cringe and i can't even believe that was Gaider's magnum opus. F. A better CC because the options Bio provides are extremely limited compared to their peers'. G. More dialogue options to craft the pc's persona in order to prevent them from being shackled into a singular role and motive.
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Andraste_Reborn
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jan 1, 2019 8:46:38 GMT
E. Less resources spent on animating sex scenes, and romances in general. Ride the Bull was cringe and i can't even believe that was Gaider's magnum opus. Iron Bull's lead writer was Patrick Weekes, not David Gaider. (Of course, these things are a team effort. John Epler did Bull's the cinematics, and is responsible for going to extra mile that let everyone ride the Bull if they wanted, including people who played as dwarves. Which is one of the reasons I'm delighted he's the narrative lead going forward.)
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