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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 23, 2019 22:09:48 GMT
That's not science. Science is the scientific method. Footage from space is also an appeal to authority fallacy, since the rest of us don't have access to verify for ourselves. This is what it's all about, what we can verify for ourselves if what we're told is true or not. Surely if the Earth was a ball there would be at least one non-fallacious argument to back it up. Direct quote from you. Note that part where it says "...since the rest of us don't have access to verify for ourselves." You are claiming that footage doesn't count, only going into space and looking down. You don't even have the footage. That doesn't say we can't prove the shape of the Earth without going into space. Just means we can't verify what NASA shows and tells.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 23, 2019 22:25:12 GMT
Misusing "appeal to authority "lol. Has TF actually even gotten a fallacy correct in this whole thread?
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 23, 2019 22:27:28 GMT
Misusing "appeal to authority "lol. Has TF actually even gotten a fallacy correct in this whole thread? Well don't just assert it, explain so that the audience and I may learn.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 24, 2019 0:03:16 GMT
So the plane isn't too high, far from it at those distances. That's what I said. 96,000 feet, being too high, didn't explain the phenomenon by itself. That's why we need the refraction through the progressively more dense atmosphere.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 24, 2019 0:41:59 GMT
Misusing "appeal to authority "lol. Has TF actually even gotten a fallacy correct in this whole thread? Well don't just assert it, explain so that the audience and I may learn. Evidence from NASA is not an appeal to authority. The claim being made is not that the spherical earth is true simply because NASA says it is. The claim is that NASA has provided evidence towards a spherical earth. Their position as experts in the field means it is logically sound to accept their evidence as trustworthy and credible. This is not fallacious reasoning. Similarly, trusting a medical expert on a victim's cause of death in a murder trial is not fallacious reasoning. Here is Logically Fallacious on the proper role of authority in argumentation and reasoning: "Be very careful not to confuse "deferring to an authority on the issue" with the appeal to authority fallacy. Remember, a fallacy is an error in reasoning. Dismissing the council of legitimate experts and authorities turns good skepticism into denialism. The appeal to authority is a fallacy in argumentation, but deferring to an authority is a reliable heuristic that we all use virtually every day on issues of relatively little importance. There is always a chance that any authority can be wrong, that’s why the critical thinker accepts facts provisionally. It is not at all unreasonable (or an error in reasoning) to accept information as provisionally true by credible authorities. Of course, the reasonableness is moderated by the claim being made (i.e., how extraordinary, how important) and the authority (how credible, how relevant to the claim). The appeal to authority is more about claims that require evidence than about facts. For example, if your tour guide told you that Vatican City was founded February 11, 1929, and you accept that information as true, you are not committing a fallacy (because it is not in the context of argumentation) nor are you being unreasonable."
www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority
Here is RationalWiki on fallacious vs non-fallacious use of authority in reasoning:
An argument from authority refers to two kinds of arguments: - A non-fallacious argument from authority grounds a claim in the beliefs of one or more authoritative source(s), whose opinions are likely to be true on the relevant issue. Notably, insofar as the authorities in question are, indeed, experts on the issue in question, their opinion provides strong inductive support for the conclusion: It makes the conclusion likely to be true, not necessarily true. As such, an argument from authority can only strongly suggest what is true -- not prove it.
- A logically fallacious argument from authority grounds a claim in the beliefs of a source that is not authoritative. Sources could be non-authoritative because of their disagreement with consensus on the issue, their non-expertise in the relevant issue, or a number of other issues.
Correct uses of argument from authority involve deferred justification: Insofar as your claim accords with what experts on the issue believes, then your claim is also supported by the evidence the experts are relying on, even if you may not yourself be aware of what that evidence in fact is.
rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
Here is Your Logical Fallacy Is:
"It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus. Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence."
yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority
Here is ThoughtCo on "legitimate appeals to authority"
Not every reliance upon the testimony of authority figures is fallacious. We often rely upon such testimony, and we can do so for very good reason. Their talent, training and experience put them in a position to evaluate and report on evidence not readily available to everyone else. But we must keep in mind that for such an appeal to be justified, certain standards must be met: - 1. The authority is an expert in the area of knowledge under consideration.
- 2. The statement of the authority concerns his or her area of mastery.
- 3. There is agreement among experts in the area of knowledge under consideration.
www.thoughtco.com/fallacies-of-relevance-appeal-to-authority-250336
Here is Skeptical Raptor: What is not an argument from authority?
As we mentioned, this is a conditional fallacy, so an argument from an authority may not be a logical fallacy, and, in fact, may be an appropriate argument. For example, one may be a published and highly respect expert in a field, their arguments can be acceptable, and it’s not a logical fallacy. These authority figures have extensive work in the field that actually form the body of evidence in support of an argument. The reason we accept their authority is that their works (almost always published and peer-reviewed) of authorities, no matter how eminent or influential, is always judged by the quality of their evidence and reasoning, not by their authority alone. www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/logical-fallacies/argument-from-authority-logical-fallacies/
I could go on but I'm tired of posting links. You get the idea.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 24, 2019 0:59:57 GMT
So the plane isn't too high, far from it at those distances. That's what I said. 96,000 feet, being too high, didn't explain the phenomenon by itself. That's why we need the refraction through the progressively more dense atmosphere. Wow, your obfuscation tactics are over 9000. Have no idea what you were talking about, neither has the audience, I'm sure. You've done good son. You done good.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 24, 2019 2:09:17 GMT
Sorry, Lenny. My sis and I have been enjoying some nice organic wine and just smoked some now legal Canadian herb. Watching my sis play Mass Effect 1 for the first time. We just got back in the Normandy, my sis is taking a quick break to make a smoothie.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 24, 2019 6:15:59 GMT
That's what I said. 96,000 feet, being too high, didn't explain the phenomenon by itself. That's why we need the refraction through the progressively more dense atmosphere. Wow, your obfuscation tactics are over 9000. Have no idea what you were talking about, neither has the audience, I'm sure. You've done good son. You done good. You don't know how refraction works?
Light changes velocity as the optical density of the medium through which is travelling changes. This is how prisms work, and lenses. If you've ever worn corrective eyewear, you've seen this is in action. If you've ever transmitted data over fibre optic cable, you've used it.
The earth's atmosphere, being denser near the ground, does the same thing. Light traveling through space moves in a straight line (except for gravitational effects), but as it hits the atmosphere it bends proportionally to the angle of incidence. The math for a simple barrier between two media (such as the edge of a glass prism) isn't difficult.
Since, for light traveling at an angle from low to high altitude, there isn't a clean divide between two media of consistent density (like with a prism), the math for the refraction of that light would require calculus. But suffice to say, the light bends toward the increased density, so the light traveling up away from Cabo San Lucas would bend down toward the earth, and this still reach that airplane (cruising altitude these days is closer to 40,000 feet than 30,000 feet).
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 24, 2019 10:51:02 GMT
Well don't just assert it, explain so that the audience and I may learn. The appeal to authority is a fallacy in argumentation, but deferring to an authority is a reliable heuristic that we all use virtually every day on issues of relatively little importance. There is always a chance that any authority can be wrong, that’s why the critical thinker accepts facts provisionally. It is not at all unreasonable (or an error in reasoning) to accept information as provisionally true by credible authorities. Double speak. If there's always a chance the authorities can be wrong, then it's fallacious to rely on them.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 24, 2019 11:02:43 GMT
Wow, your obfuscation tactics are over 9000. Have no idea what you were talking about, neither has the audience, I'm sure. You've done good son. You done good. You don't know how refraction works?
Light changes velocity as the optical density of the medium through which is travelling changes. This is how prisms work, and lenses. If you've ever worn corrective eyewear, you've seen this is in action. If you've ever transmitted data over fibre optic cable, you've used it.
The earth's atmosphere, being denser near the ground, does the same thing. Light traveling through space moves in a straight line (except for gravitational effects), but as it hits the atmosphere it bends proportionally to the angle of incidence. The math for a simple barrier between two media (such as the edge of a glass prism) isn't difficult.
Since, for light traveling at an angle from low to high altitude, there isn't a clean divide between two media of consistent density (like with a prism), the math for the refraction of that light would require calculus. But suffice to say, the light bends toward the increased density, so the light traveling up away from Cabo San Lucas would bend down toward the earth, and this still reach that airplane (cruising altitude these days is closer to 40,000 feet than 30,000 feet).
Still obfuscating and failing to back any of your assertions. If refraction and 10,000 feet (1.89 miles) more altitude being enough to make up for 30 to 40 miles of missing Earth curvature and make the world appear flat as a pancake, well that's an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 24, 2019 13:45:06 GMT
The appeal to authority is a fallacy in argumentation, but deferring to an authority is a reliable heuristic that we all use virtually every day on issues of relatively little importance. There is always a chance that any authority can be wrong, that’s why the critical thinker accepts facts provisionally. It is not at all unreasonable (or an error in reasoning) to accept information as provisionally true by credible authorities. Double speak. If there's always a chance the authorities can be wrong, then it's fallacious to rely on them. You're being facetious. If I feel ill, should I go ask Greg from the coffee shop what to do, or should I see a doctor? In your view their advice is absolutely equivalent and it would be fallacious reasoning to lend any more weight to the doctor than to Greg. This is patently absurd and you goddamn know it. Don't play games.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 24, 2019 14:43:36 GMT
Direct quote from you. Note that part where it says "...since the rest of us don't have access to verify for ourselves." You are claiming that footage doesn't count, only going into space and looking down. You don't even have the footage. That doesn't say we can't prove the shape of the Earth without going into space. Just means we can't verify what NASA shows and tells. You continually dismiss claims as "appeal to authority". That's exactly what you're doing because you're listening to what others tell you. Dismissing legitimate experts in favor of amateurs is an exception to your claims. No Flat Earther has the requisite expertise. Your position turns skepticism into denialism.
Problem is you claim that NASA's support of an idea (that they didn't even come up with) as a reason to reject the evidence has placed you in a position to dismiss them out of hand. It would be one thing if we didn't have satellites and probes to view the Earth from above. Then it would be a matter of mistakes on the part of scientists. Instead, you have lies, massive conspiracies and the inability to find an edge. You also discount the Mars Landing, all of the planets and stars in the universe, the mood landing, global warming, airplane pilots (amateur and otherwise), Amelia Earhart, GPS, people who have actually circumnavigated the world (including Sir Francis Drake in 1577 and Magellan in 1519), astronauts and even telescopes. This type of conspiracy doesn't make any sort of sense. You literally cannot make and sense out of it.
Flat Earthers have come up with a conclusion and are always trying to make the science fit. It always gets debunked but FEers dismiss it out of hand because it doesn't fit your model. There is far too much evidence that the world is round(ish) over looking with the naked eye. In any case, you still can't see China through a telescope from wherever you happen to live. I can, in fact, see the end of any hallway with binoculars.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 24, 2019 14:51:51 GMT
Why the Earth is actually 100% flat Make sure you read all the way to the end. Some of what it says is outright ludicrous and doesn't fit with anything you've said but the conclusion is interesting.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 24, 2019 15:03:03 GMT
Anyways, moving on. @meetyournanny shared this article in chat box; What Earth would be like if it were actually flatwww.grunge.com/142043/what-earth-would-be-like-if-it-were-actually-flat/?utm_campaign=clip^ Of course right away starts with a strawman representation of flat Earth, then article continues on to make a ton of assertions and more misrepresentations. Because if truth is on your side, why not misrepresent for extra good measure? Believe article was written by Harbinger himself.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 24, 2019 15:47:53 GMT
No, not moving on. Address the fact that I've demonstrated that you're using the idea of the "appeal to authority" fallacy incorrectly.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 24, 2019 17:49:08 GMT
The appeal to authority is a fallacy in argumentation, but deferring to an authority is a reliable heuristic that we all use virtually every day on issues of relatively little importance. There is always a chance that any authority can be wrong, that’s why the critical thinker accepts facts provisionally. It is not at all unreasonable (or an error in reasoning) to accept information as provisionally true by credible authorities. Double speak. If there's always a chance the authorities can be wrong, then it's fallacious to rely on them. There isn't such a chance. You dismiss evidence so there's no way you can accept the truth. Satellite, probes and space shuttles all provide evidence. To you, that's all fake because Reasons. You've never provided a logical reason why you consider that evidence to be false, nor do I expect you ever to come up with such a reason. C'mon, admit it's because you think some deity did it. Then we can really get into it, at least until BSN bans the topic.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 24, 2019 17:49:55 GMT
No, not moving on. Address the fact that I've demonstrated that you're using the idea of the "appeal to authority" fallacy incorrectly. Did have a reply, but decided not to post because it was changing the subject and felt I've already made my point for the audience to discern their own conclusion. Since you brought the doctor example, my rebuttal was that folks are already into researching alternative treatments (myself included and with positive results) and that if you google death by malpractice, we're told it's the third leading cause of death. Showing doctors are not infallible.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 24, 2019 18:22:00 GMT
Double speak. If there's always a chance the authorities can be wrong, then it's fallacious to rely on them. There isn't such a chance. You dismiss evidence so there's no way you can accept the truth. Satellite, probes and space shuttles all provide evidence. To you, that's all fake because Reasons. You've never provided a logical reason why you consider that evidence to be false, nor do I expect you ever to come up with such a reason. C'mon, admit it's because you think some deity did it. Then we can really get into it, at least until BSN bans the topic. Your argument is invalid because I believed in a creator well before FE. Look at Phantom , he denies FE yet still seems to believe in a creator. The biggest flat Earther channel, Jeranism, frequently mentions that though raised Christian, he cannot believe in the bible anymore. Many flat Earthers don't believe in the bible, why they had to divide the last FE conferences between the bible camp and non-bible camp because too many non-bible believers complained at prior FE conference. So enough with trying to use this non-argument as a strawman. Nor do I recall researching FE in the early days with the intention to back the bible, came at it open minded and was genuinely interested in knowing what was really going on by strictly looking where the evidence led. So lets keep it that way.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 24, 2019 20:30:03 GMT
Still obfuscating and failing to back any of your assertions. If refraction and 10,000 feet (1.89 miles) more altitude being enough to make up for 30 to 40 miles of missing Earth curvature and make the world appear flat as a pancake, well that's an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. A prism counts as extraordinary evidence now? I'm confident if I were to go to the trouble of showing you the math, you would dismiss it as obfuscation. There may come a day when I will devote the energy to doing that. Today is not that day. I am pleased, though, that this thread is unlikely to convince anyone to become a flat earther.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 24, 2019 20:33:17 GMT
Your argument is invalid because I believed in a creator well before FE. It's the same failure of reasoning, though. You don't have an easy answer, so you make one up to fill the gap. Believing flat earth makes more sense than believing in a creator, though, because there exists more evidence for it. Believing in a creator is wholly baseless.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 24, 2019 20:57:24 GMT
Still obfuscating and failing to back any of your assertions. If refraction and 10,000 feet (1.89 miles) more altitude being enough to make up for 30 to 40 miles of missing Earth curvature and make the world appear flat as a pancake, well that's an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. A prism counts as extraordinary evidence now? I'm confident if I were to go to the trouble of showing you the math, you would dismiss it as obfuscation. There may come a day when I will devote the energy to doing that. Today is not that day. I am pleased, though, that this thread is unlikely to convince anyone to become a flat earther. If people want to believe a prism is proof that light bends things into view like a hologram at rate of 7/6 Earth radius behind 30 miles of Earth curvature bulge to make the world look flat over 1000 km distance, they can.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 24, 2019 21:02:34 GMT
Science isn't proof. Science is a process.
Observe Hypothesize Test Observe Revise
Observations that confirm your hypothesis teach you exactly nothing. That's the problem with the verificationist model of science.
Only false results provide information, because they prove your hypothesis wrong.
Also, using a dictionary to define science is absurd, because dictionaries are descriptive. They tell you how a word is used. Those definitions aren't necessarily coherent. If you want a proper definition of science, there's a whole field of study for that.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 24, 2019 21:29:20 GMT
Science isn't proof. Science is a process. Observe Hypothesize Test Observe Revise Observations that confirm your hypothesis teach you exactly nothing. That's the problem with the verificationist model of science. Only false results provide information, because they prove your hypothesis wrong. Also, using a dictionary to define science is absurd, because dictionaries are descriptive. They tell you how a word is used. Those definitions aren't necessarily coherent. If you want a proper definition of science, there's a whole field of study for that. Always up to me to back claims up while you slink away to obfuscate with more assertions. Alright, lets see what wikipedia has to say about scientific experiment for starters; Well what do you know, says it's about cause and effect like I've always said. Lets see what we can find on cause and effect next; The backbone of science, you don't say.
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Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 24, 2019 22:35:07 GMT
There isn't such a chance. You dismiss evidence so there's no way you can accept the truth. Satellite, probes and space shuttles all provide evidence. To you, that's all fake because Reasons. You've never provided a logical reason why you consider that evidence to be false, nor do I expect you ever to come up with such a reason. C'mon, admit it's because you think some deity did it. Then we can really get into it, at least until BSN bans the topic. Your argument is invalid because I believed in a creator well before FE. Look at Phantom , he denies FE yet still seems to believe in a creator. The biggest flat Earther channel, Jeranism, frequently mentions that though raised Christian, he cannot believe in the bible anymore. Many flat Earthers don't believe in the bible, why they had to divide the last FE conferences between the bible camp and non-bible camp because too many non-bible believers complained at prior FE conference. So enough with trying to use this non-argument as a strawman. Nor do I recall researching FE in the early days with the intention to back the bible, came at it open minded and was genuinely interested in knowing what was really going on by strictly looking where the evidence led. So lets keep it that way. I didn't say FE made you believe in a creator. It's the other way around. However, I'd like you to cite your source for this division. Reality is that Flat Earth only works under the magic wand of a creator deity. I've honestly been searching and have found no evidence that any atheist believes in a flat Earth. In any case, I didn't cite the Bible. All I said was a creator deity. Your interpretation of what that meant is on you.
Atheists don't need anything supernatural and so are able to accept the existence of an infinite universe rather than three disks. Under a Flat Earth we begin to starve to death once we reach the point where the population is so great that it becomes impossible to feed everyone. (We're not there yet, we simply don't share all of the resources available.)
Thank you for acknowledging what I always knew. Now I can safely dismiss your arguments as having no merit.
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dmc1001
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Biotic Booty
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ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 24, 2019 22:40:39 GMT
Your argument is invalid because I believed in a creator well before FE. It's the same failure of reasoning, though. You don't have an easy answer, so you make one up to fill the gap. Believing flat earth makes more sense than believing in a creator, though, because there exists more evidence for it. Believing in a creator is wholly baseless. He equates creator with Bible. I never said Bible nor did I even cite the Bible as a source of this belief. Some do use it, but most think that's nonsense. All I said is that a creator is a requirement for a flat Earth. I never said a flat Earth made people religious.
I admit to being atheist, even anti-theist. One sliver of reason why I'm anti-theist is this entire Flat Earth idea. I'm not getting deeply into religion here, since it's illegal around here, but I think my point was made.
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