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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 9, 2019 16:47:57 GMT
Yes, open system, that's the problem. How can we live in an open system when it's a second law of thermodynamics violation (entropy)? Because the second law only applies to isolated systems, whereas Earth is considered open/closed. If the Earth was an isolated system, it would be unable to receive any heat/light from the Sun, nor would it gain/lose any matter, mass or energy.
This is a red herring and a strawman. Failed strawman since energy can still travel through a container (sun through window, heat through pot to warm up food, etc).
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Post by Sifr on Apr 10, 2019 12:10:32 GMT
Because the second law only applies to isolated systems, whereas Earth is considered open/closed. If the Earth was an isolated system, it would be unable to receive any heat/light from the Sun, nor would it gain/lose any matter, mass or energy.
You're misunderstanding and got that backwards, entropy takes place in an open system, not a closed system. I think the misunderstanding is yours, because none of that has anything to do with what I was talking about?
Earth can be considered both an open and closed system, so entropy can occur.
This does not violate the second law, as that applies to isolated systems. Isolated is not the same as closed.
This is a red herring and a strawman. Failed strawman since energy can still travel through a container (sun through window, heat through pot to warm up food, etc). Heat may not flow to or from an isolated system, but heat flow to and from a closed system is possible. Hence why Earth cannot be an isolated system, as per my argument.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 10, 2019 12:13:27 GMT
I'm also curious how anyone can cite entropy and thermodynamics, yet somehow consider gravity, travel in space, orbital mechanics and the globe Earth to be complete lunacy? You can't pick and chose what science to accept and follow, while ignoring and disregarding the rest. If you can accept the Laws on Thermodynamics as true, how can you then balk at Gravity?
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 10, 2019 16:29:21 GMT
You're misunderstanding and got that backwards, entropy takes place in an open system, not a closed system. I think the misunderstanding is yours, because none of that has anything to do with what I was talking about?
Earth can be considered both an open and closed system, so entropy can occur.
This does not violate the second law, as that applies to isolated systems. Isolated is not the same as closed.
This is a red herring and a strawman. Failed strawman since energy can still travel through a container (sun through window, heat through pot to warm up food, etc). Heat may not flow to or from an isolated system, but heat flow to and from a closed system is possible. Hence why Earth cannot be an isolated system, as per my argument. Second law of thermodynamics states that gas fills available volume. Our atmosphere is gas, so how gas can coexist next to available volume without entropy taking place question still remains. Still a strawman because you're making the argument about where the sun is on a flat Earth just so you can attack this misrepresentation argument. I didn't make any argument about how the sun works on a flat Earth in this regard or if there even is a container, only saying the necessary antecedent for gas pressure is a container. So until anyone can show evidence via demonstration of otherwise, it's a logical consistency to assert that we have no example of a second law of thermodynamics violation. I'm also curious how anyone can cite entropy and thermodynamics, yet somehow consider gravity, travel in space, orbital mechanics and the globe Earth to be complete lunacy? You can't pick and chose what science to accept and follow, while ignoring and disregarding the rest. If you can accept the Laws on Thermodynamics as true, how can you then balk at Gravity? Show the science, don't just assert it. And the second law of thermodymics falls outside of science, it is a natural law. Science is cause and effect relationship, meanwhile natural laws have no known cause for their effect therefore a just is (ie. we don't know the cause of why low volume flows to high volume or heat to cold and not the other way around, it just is this way). Never balked at gravity, just that there's is no scientific validation for it. So not claiming it don't exist.
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 13, 2019 23:23:32 GMT
Just caught up with the daily Flat Earth Debate videos by Nathan Oakley ( who just got a second kid today) on both his channels, my main FE content that makes perfect listening while gaming Anthem. So will have more time for other FE content makers and thinking of just posting what I watch, my actual original intent with this thread. Just finished watching this quick Q&A stream by Phuket Word who is pretty interesting to listen too.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Apr 13, 2019 23:49:22 GMT
Zero medieval people actuality believed in this...yet this topic is here to cater to one troll...after killing the politics thread. Got it.
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 14, 2019 0:07:03 GMT
Zero medieval people actuality believed in this...yet this topic is here to cater to one troll...after killing the politics thread. Got it. Heliocentric model & shape of Earth didn't pick up speed until the death of Nicolaus Copernicus in 1543 with the release of his Dē revolutionibus orbium coelestium book. Well, according to the history we have available. And this thread seems pretty peaceful to me.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Apr 14, 2019 0:11:43 GMT
Zero medieval people actuality believed in this...yet this topic is here to cater to one troll...after killing the politics thread. Got it. Heliocentric model & shape of Earth didn't pick up speed until the death of Nicolaus Copernicus in 1543 with the release of his Dē revolutionibus orbium coelestium book. Well, according to the history we have available. And this thread seems pretty peaceful to me. You are the most privileged member on this site. The mods really adore you while shutting down other threads that barely contest the rules. As for what I think: you are a clown, suck my balls.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Apr 14, 2019 13:55:17 GMT
Zero medieval people actuality believed in this...yet this topic is here to cater to one troll...after killing the politics thread. Got it. You are the most privileged member on this site. The mods really adore you while shutting down other threads that barely contest the rules. As for what I think: you are a clown, suck my balls. Don't misinterpret what I say, because I think this thread is very dumb. But it doesn't have anything to do with the politics thread, nor any conspiracy to exalt anyone. If you want to share what you think of it, you don't need to connect it to a conspiracy theory as an excuse (ironically appropriate as that might be.)
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 14, 2019 18:48:49 GMT
Going to be watching/listening to this weeks Globebusters live stream that's going on in 10 minutes while farming out last few Elysiam catches in Anthem.
Watch in YouTube if you want to see and participate in live chat among other ballers and flat Earthers.
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 14, 2019 23:59:01 GMT
The highlight of that show was talk about the recent back hole image starting at 2:05:16 timestamp. Some might be surprised at the official narrative for capturing black holes.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 17, 2019 16:25:19 GMT
Heliocentric model & shape of Earth didn't pick up speed until the death of Nicolaus Copernicus in 1543 with the release of his Dē revolutionibus orbium coelestium book. Well, according to the history we have available. Not true, the notion that Earth was spherical existed over two thousand years prior to this, the only thing that was in dispute by academics and scholars prior to the Middle Ages was how large the circumference of the Earth was. The only thing that Copernicus did was challenge the belief that the Earth was the centre of the universe, rather than what shape it was.
The reason that the flat Earth model fell out of favour around this same time was because the 15th/16th centuries was the start of the Age of Discovery, when European shipbuilding advanced enough to make ships capable of the long sea voyages need for them to attempt to circumnavigate the globe. Magellan successfully achieved this (simultaneously proving the Earth was spherical) during his voyage of 1519-1522... 20 years before the death of Copernicus.
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Fortifying everything.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 17, 2019 16:29:46 GMT
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 17, 2019 18:42:25 GMT
Heliocentric model & shape of Earth didn't pick up speed until the death of Nicolaus Copernicus in 1543 with the release of his Dē revolutionibus orbium coelestium book. Well, according to the history we have available. Not true, the notion that Earth was spherical existed over two thousand years prior to this, the only thing that was in dispute by academics and scholars prior to the Middle Ages was how large the circumference of the Earth was. The only thing that Copernicus did was challenge the belief that the Earth was the centre of the universe, rather than what shape it was.
The reason that the flat Earth model fell out of favour around this same time was because the 15th/16th centuries was the start of the Age of Discovery, when European shipbuilding advanced enough to make ships capable of the long sea voyages need for them to attempt to circumnavigate the globe. Magellan successfully achieved this (simultaneously proving the Earth was spherical) during his voyage of 1519-1522... 20 years before the death of Copernicus. And how did everyone know the Earth was a sphere over 2000 years ago? Also would like to see the evidence of everyone knowing the Earth was sphere from over 2000 year to pre-1500. Because I only see evidence of earlier cultures believing in flat Earth cosmology. Meanwhile the earliest extant terrestrial globe was made in 1492 by Martin Behaim (1459–1537) with help from the painter Georg Glockendon.Also circumnavigation does not prove globe Earth.
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 17, 2019 18:52:13 GMT
Heliocentric model & shape of Earth didn't pick up speed until the death of Nicolaus Copernicus in 1543 with the release of his Dē revolutionibus orbium coelestium book. Well, according to the history we have available. Magellan successfully achieved this (simultaneously proving the Earth was spherical) during his voyage of 1519-1522... 20 years before the death of Copernicus.
Strawman. By picking up speed meant picking up speed in popularity.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 17, 2019 20:17:43 GMT
And how did everyone know the Earth was a sphere over 2000 years ago? Also would like to see the evidence of everyone knowing the Earth was sphere from over 2000 year to pre-1500. Because I only see evidence of earlier cultures believing in flat Earth cosmology. I never said that everyone knew the earth was round, I said that the concept of a spherical Earth was something that existed ever since the 6th Century BC and something that numerous people across the centuries had all arrived at, based on their own astronomical observations and those of earlier scholars.
That does not mean that common folk believed the Earth was round (if they should even think about it at all) because we're talking about a period of history when most people lacked access to even the most basic forms of education (such as literacy), as well as the shape of the planet having little-to-no practical purpose in their day-to-day lives. As long as seasons happened roughly when they were supposed to, why should most people care what shape the planet was?
The invention of the first modern printing press in the 15th century revolutionised mass-communication, allowing new information to not only be shared among scientists, but filter into the public consciousness on a level that had not previously been possible. With the Age of Discovery occurring at his time and Magellan's voyage demonstrating that circumnavigation of the Earth was indeed possible, isn't it any wonder that the Flat Earth model was debunked around this time?
Also circumnavigation does not prove globe Earth. Yes, it does.
If the Earth was flat, you couldn't navigate correctly at sea using a sextant.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 17, 2019 20:23:01 GMT
Magellan successfully achieved this (simultaneously proving the Earth was spherical) during his voyage of 1519-1522... 20 years before the death of Copernicus.
Strawman. By picking up speed meant picking up speed in popularity. Magellan. By successfully achieved circumnavigation of the globe, meant proved you could circumnavigate the globe.
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 17, 2019 20:55:39 GMT
And how did everyone know the Earth was a sphere over 2000 years ago? Also would like to see the evidence of everyone knowing the Earth was sphere from over 2000 year to pre-1500. Because I only see evidence of earlier cultures believing in flat Earth cosmology. I never said that everyone knew the earth was round, I said that the concept of a spherical Earth was something that existed ever since the 6th Century BC and something that numerous people across the centuries had all arrived at, based on their own astronomical observations and those of earlier scholars.
That does not mean that common folk believed the Earth was round (if they should even think about it at all) because we're talking about a period of history when most people lacked access to even the most basic forms of education (such as literacy), as well as the shape of the planet having little-to-no practical purpose in their day-to-day lives. As long as seasons happened roughly when they were supposed to, why should most people care what shape the planet was?
The invention of the first modern printing press in the 15th century revolutionised mass-communication, allowing new information to not only be shared among scientists, but filter into the public consciousness on a level that had not previously been possible. With the Age of Discovery occurring at his time and Magellan's voyage demonstrating that circumnavigation of the Earth was indeed possible, isn't it any wonder that the Flat Earth model was debunked around this time?
Also circumnavigation does not prove globe Earth. Yes, it does.
If the Earth was flat, you couldn't navigate correctly at sea using a sextant.
Lets not dwell much on the speculation of what was or wasn't history, lets stick to the facts. What was this proof of spherical Earth back in the back in pre-Jesus times? And how does a sextant prove spherical Earth?
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Post by Sifr on Apr 17, 2019 21:38:38 GMT
Lets not dwell much on the speculation of what was or wasn't history, lets stick to the facts. What was this proof of spherical Earth back in the back in pre-Jesus times? And how does a sextant prove spherical Earth? Pythagoras is credited as one of the first to teach that the Earth was spherical, something widely accepted by Greek scholars by the 5th Century BC, Aristotle would write about it in the 4th Century BC, Erataosthenes would later calculate the circumference of the Earth around 240 BC and many Greek astronomers would note that certain stars could not be observed beyond certain latitudes.
A sextant can measure the angles between astronomical objects and the horizon, which can then be used to determine one's position. As a Flat Earth does not have latitudes or longitudes, it would not be possible to navigate correctly using a sextant.
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 17, 2019 21:55:23 GMT
Lets not dwell much on the speculation of what was or wasn't history, lets stick to the facts. What was this proof of spherical Earth back in the back in pre-Jesus times? And how does a sextant prove spherical Earth? Pythagoras is credited as one of the first to teach that the Earth was spherical, something widely accepted by Greek scholars by the 5th Century BC, Aristotle would write about it in the 4th Century BC, Erataosthenes would later calculate the circumference of the Earth around 240 BC and many Greek astronomers would note that certain stars could not be observed beyond certain latitudes.
A sextant can measure the angles between astronomical objects and the horizon, which can then be used to determine one's position. As a Flat Earth is without latitudes or longitudes, it would not be possible to navigate correctly using a sextant in the manner that we can.
How did these people prove the shape of the Earth? And sounds like you're strawmaning by assuming how a sextant should and should no work on a flat Earth.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 17, 2019 22:33:06 GMT
How did these people prove the shape of the Earth? And sounds like you're strawmaning by assuming how a sextant should and should no work on a flat Earth. By using astronomical observations and calculations to determine the size and shape of the Earth, allowing later scientist and explorer to take those conclusions and verify them by actually travelling around it.
It's not strawmanning to explain precisely how a sextant works (on a Globe) and why it would not work on a Flat Earth in the same way.
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 17, 2019 22:45:34 GMT
How did these people prove the shape of the Earth? And sounds like you're strawmaning by assuming how a sextant should and should no work on a flat Earth. By using astronomical observations and calculations to determine the size and shape of the Earth, allowing later scientist and explorer to take those conclusions and verify them by actually travelling around it.
It's not strawmanning to explain precisely how a sextant works (on a Globe) and why it would not work on a Flat Earth in the same way.
Name one astronomical observation. It is a strawman when you're making assumptions on how things should and should not work on a flat Earth.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 17, 2019 23:20:44 GMT
By using astronomical observations and calculations to determine the size and shape of the Earth, allowing later scientist and explorer to take those conclusions and verify them by actually travelling around it.
It's not strawmanning to explain precisely how a sextant works (on a Globe) and why it would not work on a Flat Earth in the same way.
Name one astronomical observation. It is a strawman when you're making assumptions on how things should and should not work on a flat Earth. Observation of eclipses and the angles of shadows in vastly different locations were used to determine curvature.
It's not a strawman, because it's not an assumption that a sextant could not work as it does, were we on a Flat Earth.
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 17, 2019 23:47:13 GMT
Name one astronomical observation. It is a strawman when you're making assumptions on how things should and should not work on a flat Earth. Observation of eclipses and the angles of shadows in vastly different locations were used to determine curvature.
It's not a strawman, because it's not an assumption that a sextant could not work as it does, were we on a Flat Earth.
Ok, so how does observations of eclipses and the angles of shadows in vastly different locations determine Earth curvature? And how many possibilities on how a sextant could work on a flat Earth have you eliminated to come to that conclusion?
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Post by Sifr on Apr 18, 2019 0:42:49 GMT
Ok, so how does observations of eclipses and the angles of shadows in vastly different locations determine Earth curvature? And how many possibilities on how a sextant could work on a flat Earth have you eliminated to come to that conclusion? Earth's shadow can be observed to have a curve during lunar eclipses. By measuring the angles of shadows, taken at the same time of day, hundreds of miles apart, one can demonstrate the existence of curvature by observing how the angle changes based on latitude.
No possibilities exist to eliminate, a sextant on a Flat Earth could not be used to navigate as it would on a Globe Earth.
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