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Post by opuspace on Oct 13, 2016 19:04:01 GMT
Because they are opportunist! (Mage Hawke can be Spirit helaer also) Ofc, Hawke don't need to kill Anders, because Hawke not an executioner, as I said so many times... (maybe pro-templar Hawke also not executioner, but I'm not sure... ) I kill him. Execution style. Specially satisfactory after you romanced him. Sue me, but I don't want Sebastian to leave me. Yeah, you heard it right ", I like him. But hey guys,should be be spoiling so much for opuspace ? After all he is starting to play DA2 tonight? It will be a while until I can play it. Until then, I've already had a great deal of the plot spoiled just by being on this forum. But that's not a problem, as it's one thing to hear about it, another to experience it. Besides, there's always minor details that gets lost.
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Post by opuspace on Oct 13, 2016 19:08:38 GMT
I'm not arguing that, I'm asking if the decision to load the explosives in a rivaled state was Anders' or Vengeance'. Catalina answered that so thank you. They are not two entities that can be conventionality separated to lay blame or remove blame or give or remove credit. Anders merged with justice, Anders turned justice into Vengeance, that being, Anders/Vengeance blew up the chantry, That would be an interesting topic as to whether a merged spirit/mortal share the same responsibility if they were originally separate entities with differing goals. I don't know enough to debate that beyond that it is confirmed that Anders didn't want to do it and blacked out when Justice/Vengeance took over.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 13, 2016 19:41:58 GMT
They are not two entities that can be conventionality separated to lay blame or remove blame or give or remove credit. Anders merged with justice, Anders turned justice into Vengeance, that being, Anders/Vengeance blew up the chantry, That would be an interesting topic as to whether a merged spirit/mortal share the same responsibility if they were originally separate entities with differing goals. I don't know enough to debate that beyond that it is confirmed that Anders didn't want to do it and blacked out when Justice/Vengeance took over. This is interesting, yes, and I dont know, what's the truth. Opinions differ. What I saw: (Major spoiler!) They have separate thoughts, for example Justice did not approve Anders love with Hawke, because it afraid, that this fact distract Anders from the goal (even in friendship too). True, Justice able to take the power over Anders' mind sometimes, but, as i see, Anders able to take back his mind. But Anders (in friendship, I dont know the rivalry so much) said at the end: that NOT Justice did it. He assume responsibility, but as I see, he regret for the innocent victims – he does not say, but it seems. And (also in friendship) he want to continue the fight after Kirkwall battle, despite tha Justice calmed down. I think, on the rivalry path, Anders already don't want anything (– my opinion!).
(In the Inquisition, if Hawke romanced Anders, Hawke said, they continued to help mage rebellion, before Varric's letter.)
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Post by opuspace on Oct 13, 2016 22:35:36 GMT
That would be an interesting topic as to whether a merged spirit/mortal share the same responsibility if they were originally separate entities with differing goals. I don't know enough to debate that beyond that it is confirmed that Anders didn't want to do it and blacked out when Justice/Vengeance took over. This is interesting, yes, and I dont know, what's the truth. Opinions differ. What I saw: (Major spoiler!) They have separate thoughts, for example Justice did not approve Anders love with Hawke, because it afraid, that this fact distract Anders from the goal (even in friendship too). True, Justice able to take the power over Anders' mind sometimes, but, as i see, Anders able to take back his mind. But Anders (in friendship, I dont know the rivalry so much) said at the end: that NOT Justice did it. He assume responsibility, but as I see, he regret for the innocent victims – he does not say, but it seems. And (also in friendship) he want to continue the fight after Kirkwall battle, despite tha Justice calmed down. I think, on the rivalry path, Anders already don't want anything (– my opinion!).
(In the Inquisition, if Hawke romanced Anders, Hawke said, they continued to help mage rebellion, before Varric's letter.)
Bleh, any Hawke that loves him hands down has one of the roughest romances. Makes me wonder if they'll ever say if there's a way to separate Anders and Justice without killing Anders. I'm curious, what was their reason for merging?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 13, 2016 22:37:05 GMT
This is interesting, yes, and I dont know, what's the truth. Opinions differ. What I saw: (Major spoiler!) They have separate thoughts, for example Justice did not approve Anders love with Hawke, because it afraid, that this fact distract Anders from the goal (even in friendship too). True, Justice able to take the power over Anders' mind sometimes, but, as i see, Anders able to take back his mind. But Anders (in friendship, I dont know the rivalry so much) said at the end: that NOT Justice did it. He assume responsibility, but as I see, he regret for the innocent victims – he does not say, but it seems. And (also in friendship) he want to continue the fight after Kirkwall battle, despite tha Justice calmed down. I think, on the rivalry path, Anders already don't want anything (– my opinion!).
(In the Inquisition, if Hawke romanced Anders, Hawke said, they continued to help mage rebellion, before Varric's letter.)
Bleh, any Hawke that loves him hands down has one of the roughest romances. Makes me wonder if they'll ever say if there's a way to separate Anders and Justice without killing Anders. I'm curious, what was their reason for merging? You played with Awakening?
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Post by opuspace on Oct 14, 2016 0:27:29 GMT
Bleh, any Hawke that loves him hands down has one of the roughest romances. Makes me wonder if they'll ever say if there's a way to separate Anders and Justice without killing Anders. I'm curious, what was their reason for merging? You played with Awakening? Sadly no, I have a lot to catch up on. I started out with the Mass Effect series and have recently been converted to Dragon Age.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 14, 2016 0:52:18 GMT
You played with Awakening? Sadly no, I have a lot to catch up on. I started out with the Mass Effect series and have recently been converted to Dragon Age. Okay, then Anders and Justice met in the Awakening. Anders was in escape, and he joined to wardens, because the Templars wanted to kill him, and the Warden Commander offered this opportunity. Justice could not go back into the Fade, and he took a corpse (a dead Warden's corpse), and joined to the Warden Commander's group. Anders complained about the Mages and Templars, and Justice asked him, why he do not to do anything. Later, as Anders told to Hawke, they are befriended, and because Justice's corpse started rotten, Anders offered him his own body, and Justice offered him his help with Mages. (Sorry for my English ...)
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Post by opuspace on Oct 14, 2016 1:16:47 GMT
Sadly no, I have a lot to catch up on. I started out with the Mass Effect series and have recently been converted to Dragon Age. Okay, then Anders and Justice met in the Awakening. Anders was in escape, and he joined to wardens, because the Templars wanted to kill him, and the Warden Commander offered this opportunity. Justice could not go back into the Fade, and he took a corpse (a dead Warden's corpse), and joined to the Warden Commander's group. Anders complained about the Mages and Templars, and Justice asked him, why he do not to do anyting. Later, as he told to Hawke, they are befriended, and because Justice's corpse started rotten, Anders offered him his own body, and Justice offered him his help, with Mages. (Sorry for my English ...) Ohhhhh, ok. Thank you for explaining! You did an excellent job by the way and an extra kudos to you for trying to debate and explain things in a language you're not used to! That would be nerve wracking for me to do.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 14, 2016 1:30:54 GMT
Okay, then Anders and Justice met in the Awakening. Anders was in escape, and he joined to wardens, because the Templars wanted to kill him, and the Warden Commander offered this opportunity. Justice could not go back into the Fade, and he took a corpse (a dead Warden's corpse), and joined to the Warden Commander's group. Anders complained about the Mages and Templars, and Justice asked him, why he do not to do anyting. Later, as he told to Hawke, they are befriended, and because Justice's corpse started rotten, Anders offered him his own body, and Justice offered him his help, with Mages. (Sorry for my English ...) Ohhhhh, ok. Thank you for explaining! You did an excellent job by the way and an extra kudos to you for trying to debate and explain things in a language you're not used to! That would be nerve wracking for me to do. And later Anders started feel, that Justice changed, and Anders was convinced, that he did it.
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Post by opuspace on Oct 14, 2016 4:07:55 GMT
Ohhhhh, ok. Thank you for explaining! You did an excellent job by the way and an extra kudos to you for trying to debate and explain things in a language you're not used to! That would be nerve wracking for me to do. And later Anders started feel, that Justice changed, and Anders was convinced, that he did it. I think Gaider mentioned that the taint in Anders may have played a part in altering Justice as well as Anders' own emotions, right?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 14, 2016 8:24:01 GMT
I dont know, I don't read this before. If Gaider said, then I think, yes. There are assumptions. For example Justice had a corpse before Anders, and also had a part of Kristoff's memories, and the corruption started, when Justice left the Fade, and took the corpse. In any event, Anders is convinced that his anger changed Justice. And both have changed: Anders hardened, Justice turned into Vengeance. But Anders hope, that this is not final: in rivalry end he say: "but if I die – now or after – perhaps it will be Justice and not Vengeance, who raises from my corpse."
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Post by fylimar on Oct 14, 2016 17:53:36 GMT
I always thought, that the taint had something to do with the change in Justice and I'm glad, that Gaider kind of confirmed that. Taking over the body of the dead Warden started Justice transformation imo, Anders anger made it worse and the final straw was Kirkwall with it's thin veil and bad influence (do the 'Enigma of Kirkwall' quest and you see, what I mean) - one of those components could resulted in Justice becoming a bit unstable maybe, but all three changed him beyond recognition. So I think, they influenced one another in the end: Anders anger helped making Vengeance and Vengeance unforgivingness and black and white world view changed Anders
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Post by phoray on Oct 14, 2016 20:01:10 GMT
I dont' get why there is a second Anders thread? Is this the thread you can freely hate on Anders, rather than bring that hate to the appreciation thread?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 14, 2016 20:10:15 GMT
I dont' get why there is a second Anders thread? Is this the thread you can freely hate on Anders, rather than bring that hate to the appreciation thread? I think yes.
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Post by Dovahkiin N7 on Oct 15, 2016 13:47:42 GMT
I dont' get why there is a second Anders thread? Is this the thread you can freely hate on Anders, rather than bring that hate to the appreciation thread? Sorry about that. I missed it. But yes. Anders haters are more than welcome here.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 15, 2016 13:52:18 GMT
I dont' get why there is a second Anders thread? Is this the thread you can freely hate on Anders, rather than bring that hate to the appreciation thread? Sorry about that. I missed it. But yes. Anders haters are more than welcome here. Thank you for helping us to keep away from our topic the haters.
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Post by opuspace on Oct 17, 2016 15:43:19 GMT
Sorry about that. I missed it. But yes. Anders haters are more than welcome here. Thank you for helping us to keep away from our topic the haters. That's a good idea, no need to make the one place for Anders fans that's meant to be not depressing a toxic one.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 21, 2016 23:20:29 GMT
I dont know, I don't read this before. If Gaider said, then I think, yes. There are assumptions. For example Justice had a corpse before Anders, and also had a part of Kristoff's memories, and the corruption started, when Justice left the Fade, and took the corpse. In any event, Anders is convinced that his anger changed Justice. And both have changed: Anders hardened, Justice turned into Vengeance. But Anders hope, that this is not final: in rivalry end he say: "but if I die – now or after – perhaps it will be Justice and not Vengeance, who raises from my corpse." Are you saying that Justice retained some of Kristoff's memories? And those memories transfered to Anders? I never thought of that - very interesting. If so, that is so sad. Then Anders may be grieving a bit for the loss of Kristoff's wife on top of everyting else? Poor Anders!
I think, yes. I can't imagine, that Justice forget Kristoff's memories, when he merged with Anders, and yes, probably Anders know Kristoff's memories also. You right. Not exactly this was, what I wanted to say, but this is also true, as I see. I said, that Justice's change may starting when he came in contact with Kristoff's corpse/memories, so: when he merged with Anders he was not that pure Justice, who was in the Fade. Not mentioned, that: the world is not perfect...
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Post by Catilina on Oct 21, 2016 23:36:40 GMT
I think, yes. I can't imagine, that Justice forget Kristoff's memories, when he merged with Anders, and yes, probably Anders know Kristoff's memories also. You right. Not exactly this was, what I wanted to say, but this is also true, as I see. I said, that Justice's change may starting when he came in contact with Kristoff's corpse/memories, so: when he merged with Anders he was not that pure Justice, who was in the Fade. Not mentioned, that: the world is not perfect... Oh I see, yes that would make sense. Kristoff's memories also changed Justice and moved Justice towards vengence. Again, I never made that connection. Kristoff's memories from being a warden - we know how tragic some of things he went through - similar to our warden or more. So Justice pretty much received both Kristoff's memories and soon afterward Anders memories. That's not a lot of time to adjust or process to so many horrible and tragic events and emotions especially since Justice only knows the fade. No wonder Justice turned.
What Anders went through in DA2 then.
You know I don't think I'll ever be able to kill Anders again. I'm feeling guilty that I've killed him in some playthroughs . Just as me...
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Post by phoray on Oct 22, 2016 2:14:07 GMT
I did it once with a sociopath Anders and still cried for like half an hour. In the future, the most I can do is exile him. I just feel like, unless you play a pro violent uprising Hawke, that he should be punished for his actions. He's caused a lot of pain,he shouldn't get a Scot free happy ending.
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Post by kalvarez on Oct 22, 2016 20:53:16 GMT
As someone that hates the Chantry, templars and circles I was full pro Anders. If I could eliminate those three at the end of DAI I would. I fully romanced him and let him live. Heck, I canon in my mind that he followed Hawke to Weisshaupt. It's true that he is basically a terrorist, if you see him in our world view, but considering how f**k up Thedas is and that both Mages and Templars (and Wardens...and Seekers) are idiots in their approach to solutions; if he had done nothing, all would remain the same. As someone mentioned, you cannot ignore him. Plus he likes cats and is doctor (kind of), what's not to like
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Post by Catilina on Oct 22, 2016 21:18:25 GMT
As someone that hates the Chantry, templars and circles I was full pro Anders. If I could eliminate those three at the end of DAI I would. I fully romanced him and let him live. Heck, I canon in my mind that he followed Hawke to Weisshaupt. It's true that he is basically a terrorist, if you see him in our world view, but considering how f**k up Thedas is and that both Mages and Templars (and Wardens...and Seekers) are idiots in their approach to solutions; if he had done nothing, all would remain the same. As someone mentioned, you cannot ignore him. Plus he likes cats and is doctor (kind of), what's not to like Revolution is rarely happen without blood and innocent victims. It is understandable why he did it. My Hawke already on his way to Weisshaupt, and they live happily ever after... He will not to go back to Kirkwall without Anders (my fairy tale)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 22, 2016 22:31:13 GMT
I kill that warmongering terrorist abomination every time. Granted I would have liked other options like him being imprisoned for the rest of his life and face justice for all the innocent people whose lives he ended or ruined. But since the choices are execute him or let him get away with it, he always dies in my playthroughs.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 22, 2016 22:39:39 GMT
I kill that warmongering terrorist abomination every time. Granted I would have liked other options like him being imprisoned for the rest of his life and face justice for all the innocent people whose lives he ended or ruined. But since the choices are execute him or let him get away with it, he always dies in my playthroughs. Strange pleasure, but if you like this ...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 22, 2016 22:44:12 GMT
I kill that warmongering terrorist abomination every time. Granted I would have liked other options like him being imprisoned for the rest of his life and face justice for all the innocent people whose lives he ended or ruined. But since the choices are execute him or let him get away with it, he always dies in my playthroughs. Strange pleasure, but if you like this ... Pleasure? I derive no pleasure from it. Like I said, I'd have loved an option where he is arrested and stands trial. Regardless of opinion on the situation, but of the two choices we are limited to him dying for his crimes is the only right one. What he did is unforgivable and letting him go free without any form of consequence is objectively morally wrong.
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