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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 29, 2016 21:10:40 GMT
Yes he did. He wanted mages to be more than the current situation. That means he wants political power. Not to the extent of being in charge, but he wanted more than he currently possessed. Anders was also cruel. He literally kills hundreds of people to cause the deaths of hundreds if not thousands more just to send a message(again, political). He does exactly what Vivienne does, just on a much larger scale. He doesn't feel sorry enough not to do it or atone after he does it, so any remorse he has means nothing. No terms of endearment? Shows how much Anders 'loves' you. Anders had political purpose, but he don't want power. And anders killed people because he had believe, this is the last solution, Vivienne killed that man JUST FOR FUN! If you do not see the difference, needless to explain. ENDEARMENT? And "Oh- darling-you-look-terrible" Vivienne? (Or maybe I misunderstod you.) He wanted the power of a free man compared to what he saw he was now. That is wanting political power, in this case the power of being an equal. As for the last thing, yes it was a joke since I figured the last part of your post was, or are you really holding vocabulary like that against someone? That said, an argument can be made for the relationship with Anders being him using you, at least in the end.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 21:26:46 GMT
Anders had political purpose, but he don't want power. And anders killed people because he had believe, this is the last solution, Vivienne killed that man JUST FOR FUN! If you do not see the difference, needless to explain. ENDEARMENT? And "Oh- darling-you-look-terrible" Vivienne? (Or maybe I misunderstod you.) He wanted the power of a free man compared to what he saw he was now. That is wanting political power, in this case the power of being an equal. As for the last thing, yes it was a joke since I figured the last part of your post was, or are you really holding vocabulary like that against someone? That said, an argument can be made for the relationship with Anders being him using you, at least in the end. Vivienne call everyone "my dear/darling" this is just so disgusting. Anders never use these words.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 29, 2016 21:40:15 GMT
He wanted the power of a free man compared to what he saw he was now. That is wanting political power, in this case the power of being an equal. As for the last thing, yes it was a joke since I figured the last part of your post was, or are you really holding vocabulary like that against someone? That said, an argument can be made for the relationship with Anders being him using you, at least in the end. Vivienne call everyone "my dear/darling" this is just so disgusting. Anders never use these words. What's disgusting about it?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 21:48:55 GMT
Where he says: I like Tevinter? He said: "Tevinter clearly has the right of it.", because the mages are free. Anders never was in Tevinter, and Anders don't believe that the Chantry say about Tevinter. He just don't believe, that Tevinter so evil, as the Chantry say. Yes. Fenris said: You should have lived in Tevinter. But Anders not said: Yes, I want to live in Tevinter, just PROBABLY... Yes, Anders said this: because he know: so much angry mages live in the Circles, and if this anger break free, the Chantry's soldiers will be trouble. This is not surprising. But maybe a threat. It was illogical? The Chantry were held captive for 1,000 years the mages and tortured them. A lot of the persecuted, tortured, wrathful people are dangerous. Also without magic. Fenris not said: I want Anders to die, he said: HE wants to die, then kill him. This is not same... Fenris so practical! I like him! Where "canon' says, that Anders LIKES Tevinter? It's a stretch to think he doesn't like Tevinter considering A. he clearly doesn't see it as bad as everyone says it is, including the Tevinter slave B. thinks Tevinter has the right way of doing things C. would most likely enjoy living there and D. would prefer seeing south Thedas becoming more like Tevinter. If he doesn't believe Tevinter is as evil as FENRIS insists it is, then he clearly doesn't care about a slave's opinions on his slavery and he wouldn't see him as a friend no matter how many card games they've played together. When I said, they are good friends? Fenris also said: the mages don't deserves freedom, and don't agree with Anders, that the mages are slaves in Southern Thedas. And Fenris was not right in this issue. And Tevinter not "evil". Tevinter not as Southern Thedas, Tevinter different. NOT "evil". Not all Tevinter magister are evil. Even Fenris nor said that all magisters are evil.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 21:50:19 GMT
Vivienne call everyone "my dear/darling" this is just so disgusting. Anders never use these words. What's disgusting about it? You dont hear her voice? A weaker-hearted people may be having nightmares of that tone!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 29, 2016 22:00:42 GMT
What's disgusting about it? You dont hear her voice? A weaker-hearted people may be having nightmares of that tone! That is her voice and tone though. You are saying her using those words is what is disgusting. What about those words specifically is disgusting?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 22:06:10 GMT
You dont hear her voice? A weaker-hearted people may be having nightmares of that tone! That is her voice and tone though. You are saying her using those words is what is disgusting. What about those words specifically is disgusting? Its just not ... honest. If you don't hear her tone, and don't understand, I can't explain to you. Why she don't call the Inquisitor: Inquisitor, Trevelyan, Lavellan, Adaar, Cadash, as for example Meredith call Hawke as "Champion", not "my dear". This is correct. They have name, have title. Vivienne and Inquisitor are not friends and not lovers. Don't need to be kind, just correct. And: Vivienne was not kind, and she dont want to be kind. She just have terrible manners, and play the noble, while want to imprisoned the other mages into the Circles again, rule over them.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2016 23:14:03 GMT
When I said, they are good friends? Fenris also said: the mages don't deserves freedom, and don't agree with Anders, that the mages are slaves in Southern Thedas. And Fenris was not right in this issue. And Tevinter not "evil". Tevinter not as Southern Thedas, Tevinter different. NOT "evil". Not all Tevinter magister are evil. Even Fenris nor said that all magisters are evil. Not "good friends", but you think their bitter relationship is nonsense for some reason. Not all magisters are evil. But Tevinter, as a whole, built upon thousands of years of slavery with no relent, magical absurdities, corruption down to its roots, is pretty much a hellscape to anyone who isn't a mage. If Anders ignores everything Fenris complains about Tevinter and thinks "yeah, I think I'd like it there" and responds to concerns about a violent mage rebellion against mundanes with "yeah, none of you are safe, good", then we can safely say he'd approve of the dick magister life. Not their bitter relationship is the nonsense, but some of their reaction simple not fit their nature. AS I SEE, the writers just created these for the bigger drama. The mage rebellion what Anders wanted was not against the "mundanes", rather the oppressors: the Chantry and the Chantry's soldiers. No, he dont want slaves, he dont want to be blood mage. Then, we can say: he don't approve the magister life. He approve the mage freedom. You played with Legacy, and Anders was in your group? Anders really was surprised, that Corypheus was an ancient Magister. He simply don't believed before, what the Chantry told about Tevinter. He was disappointed. As I said: He dont knew to much about Tevinter. He idealized Tevinter. He asked Fenris about Tevinter. And never said: Fenris lied. He just want to belive, that exist a place, where the mages are free.
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Post by Tekehu's booty on Oct 30, 2016 0:09:19 GMT
I just finished the game I chose the rival path with him because Justice corrupted Anders's mind with vengeance and I dont like that, even Anders himself said that to my Hawke after exploding the Chantry, ... I spared him because I understand him, but I hate his methods, I believe in redemption (Xena and OUAT's Regina fan here), I hope in my canon Anders shows up again to redeem himself, it's hard to see when Justice is the one who rules Anders's mind though, the good spirit who once was is a demon now. Tragic tragic tragic. I just read this youtube comment, and I agree with it:
I really liked Justice in Awakening, the dynamic of a good spirit being your partner was really cool, it saddens me the tragic end of these two characters. I want redemption in the future
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Post by Catilina on Oct 30, 2016 2:06:54 GMT
I just finished the game I chose the rival path with him because Justice corrupted Anders's mind with vengeance and I dont like that, even Anders himself said that to my Hawke after exploding the Chantry, ... I spared him because I understand him, but I hate his methods, I believe in redemption (Xena and OUAT's Regina fan here), I hope in my canon Anders shows up again to redeem himself, it's hard to see when Justice is the one who rules Anders's mind though, the good spirit who once was is a demon now. Tragic tragic tragic. I just read this youtube comment, and I agree with it:
I really liked Justice in Awakening, the dynamic of a good spirit being your partner was really cool, it saddens me the tragic end of these two characters. I want redemption in the future It's not sure, that Justice is a demon, and he is not really evil. (in Feynriel's Fade scene you can see – depend on the choices, you need to deal with sloth demon for it) Yes, he corrupted, by the world, by Kristoff's memory, by Anders hatred and anger, and Anders' tainted blood. Anders blame himself for Justice's change, but this is not that easy. Anders still hope, that if he died, Justice will raised from his corpse. May you saw that scene, this is a rivalry moment, but maybe just rivalry romance moment, I'm not sure, never tried. And if Hawke kill him, he say: "Perhaps then Justice would at least be free") Redeem himself? From Justice? I don't think, he want to risk to kill Justice, unless exist some praxis for the safe separation. He should to live with Justice/Vengeance and keep him calm. This is why I choosed the friendship path. My Hawke(s) agreed with Anders and Justice, so: don't had any reason to risk that Anders lose himself. The rivalry romance also can have happy end, on the mage side (I think you choosed that), but if Hawke want to siding with mages, and feel the mage freedom in his own goal too, and don't want to break up with Anders, then was totally needless cruelty to force Anders to rivalry with Justice, but this is repairable, as I see. However the rivalry can kill him. If Hawke don't agree with him, or considered him abomination and Justice demon, and continue this rivalry (no matter mage or templar side), Anders will slowly lost himself, and die. Force him to siding Templar is more cruelty, than the quick death. Anders probably never will forgive himself, and Justice also probably never will forgive him. This is slow death (I saw on the YouTube: Anders actually says good bye to Hawke at Gallows before the battle). But this is only my opinion. Based on the fact: Anders must to live with Justice, until he die.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 30, 2016 3:11:21 GMT
That is her voice and tone though. You are saying her using those words is what is disgusting. What about those words specifically is disgusting? Its just not ... honest. If you don't hear her tone, and don't understand, I can't explain to you. Why she don't call the Inquisitor: Inquisitor, Trevelyan, Lavellan, Adaar, Cadash, as for example Meredith call Hawke as "Champion", not "my dear". This is correct. They have name, have title. Vivienne and Inquisitor are not friends and not lovers. Don't need to be kind, just correct. And: Vivienne was not kind, and she dont want to be kind. She just have terrible manners, and play the noble, while want to imprisoned the other mages into the Circles again, rule over them. Wow, and you complain that I am picky when it comes to squadmates. To hate someone because of a fake behavior. It's not like she does anything terrible with it, like manipulate a friend or lover to help get the ingredients for a bomb and be a distraction while it is set up, all the while lying to you about it and threaten you if you ask too many questions. You must hate a companion who would do that.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 30, 2016 3:23:50 GMT
Its just not ... honest. If you don't hear her tone, and don't understand, I can't explain to you. Why she don't call the Inquisitor: Inquisitor, Trevelyan, Lavellan, Adaar, Cadash, as for example Meredith call Hawke as "Champion", not "my dear". This is correct. They have name, have title. Vivienne and Inquisitor are not friends and not lovers. Don't need to be kind, just correct. And: Vivienne was not kind, and she dont want to be kind. She just have terrible manners, and play the noble, while want to imprisoned the other mages into the Circles again, rule over them. Wow, and you complain that I am picky when it comes to squadmates. To hate someone because of a fake behavior. It's not like she does anything terrible with it, like manipulate a friend or lover to help get the ingredients for a bomb and be a distraction while it is set up, all the while lying to you about it and threaten if asked too many questions. You must hate a companion who would do that. There is what I'm squeamish: it's the good manners. Okay, then seriously: that's a telltale behavior. I never can trust in such person, than Vivienne. 100 Anders instead of her. I don't dislike her, because she says: my dear/darling (old aunties also say that, and maybe they are not so dangerous ...but... who knows... the old aunties can do surprise). I dislike what her kind represents.
Anders lied only once. Vivienne a politican: he lies when he open her mouth.
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Post by vixsyn on Oct 30, 2016 11:32:40 GMT
That is her voice and tone though. You are saying her using those words is what is disgusting. What about those words specifically is disgusting? Its just not ... honest. If you don't hear her tone, and don't understand, I can't explain to you. Why she don't call the Inquisitor: Inquisitor, Trevelyan, Lavellan, Adaar, Cadash, as for example Meredith call Hawke as "Champion", not "my dear". This is correct. They have name, have title. Vivienne and Inquisitor are not friends and not lovers. Don't need to be kind, just correct. And: Vivienne was not kind, and she dont want to be kind. She just have terrible manners, and play the noble, while want to imprisoned the other mages into the Circles again, rule over them. This might be a case of the meaning being lost in translation. Each nation in Thedas seems to encorporate a stereotype of a real culture - for instance, the Dalish have been pushed into a sort of Celtic persona, the Qunari a sort of mid-Stalinist Russian persona, the Orlesians a terrible, snobbish French persona. Vivienne, from her accent and behaviour, has an English flavour. And the real "noble" class in England does use her sort of phrasing - it's especially common amongst women. It's a false familiarity, not used to complete strangers normally but certainly amongst acquaintences. "Darling, so lovely to see you!" "How are you getting on, my dear?" Sometimes it's used patronisingly but it's normally just habitual, nothing is meant by it, all it conveys, as I believe it conveys in Vivienne, is a certain "posh" style. If anyone has listened to much of The Archers on Radio 4, they'll be very familiar with Lilian Bellamy using these mannerisms. As for Vivienne's motives... she's a selfish person on the whole, BUT, when it comes to circles, her opinion seems to stem from a need for peaceful existence within an established rule set. She is not one to challenge the status quo if it doesn't affect her - even if it does affect her, she is calculating and plays the long game, she'll manipulate the right people to weave her way to what she wants. She's not a "good" or "bad" person, in my view, she is actually quite convincingly a "real" person. She has flaws, and how bad those flaws are probably depend on how each player views her. Some people would spit venom at her lack of sincerity and her desire to twist others to her will, others would admire how cunning she is (I don't support her style but I do admire how well she's mastered it). She lives in Orlais, and is a masterful player of "the game." She has gained her privilidges through her intellectual ability. Fenris is another matter but I agree with Catilina that some of his frienship/rivalry points are a bit contrived. If you play even as a middlingly nice Hawke he doesn't tend to be your number one fan. I like the character of Fenris, he has depth, he's brutally honest, but he's also conceited and immovable in many ways. His character can be swayed somewhat as his story continues and he is, ultimately, loyal to you in spite of his feelings about mages if you've built your relationship with him one way or another. Something I actively dislike about the character of Anders is that he is infuriatingly arrogant. He does not believe in an exchange of ideas or a conversation - you either agree with him, or you're wrong. You either do what he wants, or you're scum. That's not a real friendship. Real friendship, hell, real verbal intercourse, is built on the exchange of ideas and tolerance for other views, whilst having the freedom to express yourself without aggravated judgement. To debate is not to argue, but to discuss both sides of an idea or concept. I tend to believe that there is no real right or wrong, because all sides of most things can be argued convincingly, the best result of which is creating more questions and more thought. Anders does not want to discuss or debate with you, he wants you to agree with him, and if you don't, you can more or less go to hell. I agree, Justice was an interesting character, and had his noble spirit managed to overcome Anders' prejudice/hatred, their combination could have been an interesting and long lasting character, one I'd have enjoyed seeing in later games. If anything, I think what Bioware did to both of them is hugely sad, as it doesn't leave much open ended possibility for redemption. Whether Anders lived or died, he would still be a mass murderer (unless we go all alternate timeline, perhaps).
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Post by Catilina on Oct 30, 2016 12:52:05 GMT
Its just not ... honest. If you don't hear her tone, and don't understand, I can't explain to you. Why she don't call the Inquisitor: Inquisitor, Trevelyan, Lavellan, Adaar, Cadash, as for example Meredith call Hawke as "Champion", not "my dear". This is correct. They have name, have title. Vivienne and Inquisitor are not friends and not lovers. Don't need to be kind, just correct. And: Vivienne was not kind, and she dont want to be kind. She just have terrible manners, and play the noble, while want to imprisoned the other mages into the Circles again, rule over them. This might be a case of the meaning being lost in translation. Each nation in Thedas seems to encorporate a stereotype of a real culture - for instance, the Dalish have been pushed into a sort of Celtic persona, the Qunari a sort of mid-Stalinist Russian persona, the Orlesians a terrible, snobbish French persona. Vivienne, from her accent and behaviour, has an English flavour. And the real "noble" class in England does use her sort of phrasing - it's especially common amongst women. It's a false familiarity, not used to complete strangers normally but certainly amongst acquaintences. "Darling, so lovely to see you!" "How are you getting on, my dear?" Sometimes it's used patronisingly but it's normally just habitual, nothing is meant by it, all it conveys, as I believe it conveys in Vivienne, is a certain "posh" style. If anyone has listened to much of The Archers on Radio 4, they'll be very familiar with Lilian Bellamy using these mannerisms. As for Vivienne's motives... she's a selfish person on the whole, BUT, when it comes to circles, her opinion seems to stem from a need for peaceful existence within an established rule set. She is not one to challenge the status quo if it doesn't affect her - even if it does affect her, she is calculating and plays the long game, she'll manipulate the right people to weave her way to what she wants. She's not a "good" or "bad" person, in my view, she is actually quite convincingly a "real" person. She has flaws, and how bad those flaws are probably depend on how each player views her. Some people would spit venom at her lack of sincerity and her desire to twist others to her will, others would admire how cunning she is (I don't support her style but I do admire how well she's mastered it). She lives in Orlais, and is a masterful player of "the game." She has gained her privilidges through her intellectual ability. Fenris is another matter but I agree with Catilina that some of his frienship/rivalry points are a bit contrived. If you play even as a middlingly nice Hawke he doesn't tend to be your number one fan. I like the character of Fenris, he has depth, he's brutally honest, but he's also conceited and immovable in many ways. His character can be swayed somewhat as his story continues and he is, ultimately, loyal to you in spite of his feelings about mages if you've built your relationship with him one way or another. Something I actively dislike about the character of Anders is that he is infuriatingly arrogant. He does not believe in an exchange of ideas or a conversation - you either agree with him, or you're wrong. You either do what he wants, or you're scum. That's not a real friendship. Real friendship, hell, real verbal intercourse, is built on the exchange of ideas and tolerance for other views, whilst having the freedom to express yourself without aggravated judgement. To debate is not to argue, but to discuss both sides of an idea or concept. I tend to believe that there is no real right or wrong, because all sides of most things can be argued convincingly, the best result of which is creating more questions and more thought. Anders does not want to discuss or debate with you, he wants you to agree with him, and if you don't, you can more or less go to hell. I agree, Justice was an interesting character, and had his noble spirit managed to overcome Anders' prejudice/hatred, their combination could have been an interesting and long lasting character, one I'd have enjoyed seeing in later games. If anything, I think what Bioware did to both of them is hugely sad, as it doesn't leave much open ended possibility for redemption. Whether Anders lived or died, he would still be a mass murderer (unless we go all alternate timeline, perhaps). About Vivienne (and Thedas' cultures): I roughly agree with you. (Yes, the "real nobles" don't use this words, rather mostly snob women in the satires, but I did not want to be too rough and/or prejudices...) Vivienne is a good written character, and really I don't think, she is "evil", just I dislike her kind (the social climbers, who enjoy the "Game" too much). I can't agree with Vivienne, and she just as Anders and Fenris, don't change her mind, if Inquisitor don't agree with her, and she also be angry, just she showing that otherwise, AND: counter to Anders and Fenris, she's wrong. About Anders and Fenris: What's wrong that Anders is angry, if anyone don't agree with him in the mage issue? He's right: the mages need freedom, as everyone. This is the one thing, which he insists, and he be angry, if Hawke or anyone (for example Fenris) don't agree with him. But it's totally understandable. Fenris also be angry, if Hawke don't understand, that the slavery is bad. And he's right. What the problem with it? This is okay, that Fenris angry, but if Anders be angry, he is arrogant? This seems double standard... I don't understand the different. They both are right. And both is rightly angry if anyone don't agree. Anders' means can is morally questionable, but I'm not surprised. However, he tried peaceful means, and failed. Justice was not " good" spirit, he was " right" spirit. Sadly, corrupted. I afraid: they are not separatable, they must to lives together, I don't think, Anders want to kill Justice. He feel guilty because of Justice's corruption, but we can't blame only him. Justice's change started when he left the Fade, and moved into Kristoff's corpse. By the way: what's your opinion about Sebastian?
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Post by Tekehu's booty on Oct 30, 2016 18:02:23 GMT
I just finished the game I chose the rival path with him because Justice corrupted Anders's mind with vengeance and I dont like that, even Anders himself said that to my Hawke after exploding the Chantry, ... I spared him because I understand him, but I hate his methods, I believe in redemption (Xena and OUAT's Regina fan here), I hope in my canon Anders shows up again to redeem himself, it's hard to see when Justice is the one who rules Anders's mind though, the good spirit who once was is a demon now. Tragic tragic tragic. I just read this youtube comment, and I agree with it:
I really liked Justice in Awakening, the dynamic of a good spirit being your partner was really cool, it saddens me the tragic end of these two characters. I want redemption in the future It's not sure, that Justice is a demon, and he is not really evil. (in Feynriel's Fade scene you can see – depend on the choices, you need to deal with sloth demon for it) Yes, he corrupted, by the world, by Kristoff's memory, by Anders hatred and anger, and Anders' tainted blood. Anders blame himself for Justice's change, but this is not that easy. Anders still hope, that if he died, Justice will raised from his corpse. May you saw that scene, this is a rivalry moment, but maybe just rivalry romance moment, I'm not sure, never tried. And if Hawke kill him, he say: "Perhaps then Justice would at least be free") Redeem himself? From Justice? I don't think, he want to risk to kill Justice, unless exist some praxis for the safe separation. He should to live with Justice/Vengeance and keep him calm. This is why I choosed the friendship path. My Hawke(s) agreed with Anders and Justice, so: don't had any reason to risk that Anders lose himself. The rivalry romance also can have happy end, on the mage side (I think you choosed that), but if Hawke want to siding with mages, and feel the mage freedom in his own goal too, and don't want to break up with Anders, then was totally needless cruelty to force Anders to rivalry with Justice, but this is repairable, as I see. However the rivalry can kill him. If Hawke don't agree with him, or considered him abomination and Justice demon, and continue this rivalry (no matter mage or templar side), Anders will slowly lost himself, and die. Force him to siding Templar is more cruelty, than the quick death. Anders probably never will forgive himself, and Justice also probably never will forgive him. This is slow death (I saw on the YouTube: Anders actually says good bye to Hawke at Gallows before the battle). But this is only my opinion. Based on the fact: Anders must to live with Justice, until he die. After read the youtube comment I changed my mind, both characters were corrupted mutually, I want redemption for both, it is sad Justice is just a embodied feeling after all. But I could never be in a friendship with Anders in my canon, his methods (or Justice's methods or both's methods xD) are too extreme for my way of thinking, just like Fenris. I think the rivalry path bring the good side for almost every character in the game, my Isabela accepts her feelings, my Anders in the end understand how extreme he was, my Fenris is more tolerant towards mages, my Merrill understands now the dangerous path of dealing with demons, etc
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Post by Catilina on Oct 30, 2016 19:23:08 GMT
After read the youtube comment I changed my mind, both characters were corrupted mutually, I want redemption for both, it is sad Justice is just a embodied feeling after all. But I could never be in a friendship with Anders in my canon, his methods (or Justice's methods or both's methods xD) are too extreme for my way of thinking, just like Fenris. I think the rivalry path bring the good side for almost every character in the game, my Isabela accepts her feelings, my Anders in the end understand how extreme he was, my Fenris is more tolerant towards mages, my Merrill understands now the dangerous path of dealing with demons, etc I have a feeling that Anders was writing for rivalry romance. I never done that, but when I saw video, Anders and Justice showed themselves more, than on the friendship path (just as Anders show more from his past, to male Hawke). Sadly. as I see, Bioware suggest that the good solution in his case, the quick death, or the slow. I always thought that he's right, but when I saw the rivalry, saw how much he wanted to explain to Hawke, how he wanted to convince him/her there. And how much effort he had for his purpose, before he decide to blew up the Chantry. The rivalry path richer but sadder. (And annoying, because Hawke cant't really do anything against Anders' plan, if s/he want to prevent what Anders planned, just broke him, and take away his faith. – Actually, this the whole story of DA2 ... helplessness, lost beliefs, broken souls (except Fenris). The friendship path is the trust path, he know that he do not need to convince Hawke. In friendship path Anders not broken, and more self-confident, believe his purpose. He know, that he is right, and Hawke support him. (Okay, when he doesn't told, for what need the help on the Chantry, my Hawke was angry, and was a point, where he was able to refuse the help, but finally supported him, because he was right: Kirkwall Circle and Chantry are guilty, and unrepairable, Elthina don't suit his position, Meredith also, so: whatever Anders' plan, the war is necessarly, as I saw (ofc, I have Hawke, who refuse him, but still in friendship). On rivalry path as I see, Hawke not convince him, that he is extreme: do not think, that he does not know that what he want to do, that not good thing, just he doesn't see other solution. (He tried, he failed) Anders just became uncertain again, and helpless, as in DAA, Hawke broke his faith. In friendship path Anders and Hawke in harmony (with Justice too), After the Chantry blew up, Justice calmed down, and Anders accept his own responsibility, and doesn't blame Justice. And he still believe in his purpose. What Anders did, was terrible (relatively few revolution exist without innocent victims, and most revolution is terrible), but not he is the one criminal: for example Isabela had run away with Koslun, and how many innocent victims left behind, because of qunari war... not less than after Anders' action. And why? Because of Isabela. Do not get me wrong, I like her, but I feel some double standard. Anders never a revolitioner, he a "mass murderer", "crazy terrorist", "abomination". Even his lover/best friend in Inquisition just say about him: "He's not just a monster, or a hero, or perhaps he's both." And Isabela? Oh she is adorable! Who does not love her, those criticize only because she is too promiscuous and selfish. Look at Sebastian! Oh, he is a nice choir-boy, who sadly a bit boring, or too religious. No one say, he is a war criminal (okay, maybe this is maybe a too strong wording, but he eventually started a war, if Hawke spared Anders' life...). He abuse of his power, and attack the bled Kirkwall with his army, because of his vengeance. But he don't have logical reason for it, because Anders may damaged, but not stupid, why he would stay in Kirkwall? (The last is Inquisition's information, in DA2 Sebastian only blackmail Hawke, and threaten Kirkwall, but this somehow understandable, because he loved Elthina.) I'm a bit bitter ecause of that feeling. PS: You did rivalry also Fenris? I think with pro-mage this is a more credible path. And you're right, Fenris finally seems more calm (after the first rage...), and don't blame the magic any more after the Alone.
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Post by vixsyn on Oct 30, 2016 20:13:05 GMT
I roughly agree with you. (Yes, the "real nobles" don't use this words, rather mostly snob women in the satires, but I did not want to be too rough and/or prejudices...) Vivienne is a good written character, and really I don't think, she is "evil", just I dislike her kind (the social climbers, who enjoy the "Game" too much). I can't agree with Vivienne, and she just as Anders and Fenris, don't change her mind, if Inquisitor don't agree with her, and she also be angry, just she showing that otherwise, AND: counter to Anders and Fenris, she's wrong. About Anders and Fenris: What's wrong that Anders is angry, if anyone don't agree with him in the mage issue? He's right: the mages need freedom, as everyone. This is the one thing, which he insists, and he be angry, if Hawke or anyone (for example Fenris) don't agree with him. But it's totally understandable. Fenris also be angry, if Hawke don't understand, that the slavery is bad. And he's right. What the problem with it? This is okay, that Fenris angry, but if Anders be angry, he is arrogant? This seems double standard... I don't understand the different. They both are right. And both is rightly angry if anyone don't agree. Anders' means can is morally questionable, but I'm not surprised. However, he tried peaceful means, and failed. Justice was not " good" spirit, he was " right" spirit. Sadly, corrupted. I afraid: they are not separatable, they must to lives together, I don't think, Anders want to kill Justice. He feel guilty because of Justice's corruption, but we can't blame only him. Justice's change started when he left the Fade, and moved into Kristoff's corpse. By the way: what's your opinion about Sebastian? My own conclusion that Anders sways into the immovable/arrogant was influenced by his line when you won't help him get into the chantry - Hawke says "Being a friend doesn't mean I have to agree with your every decision." And Anders replies "You cannot be my friend and despise what I stand for. I am the cause of mages. There is nothing else inside me." A big part of why I dislike this so much is that it feels as though he, at one point, made this into a choice and went down a very dark path. He was overwhelmed by his cause - perhaps even became wrapped up in depression and indecision - and it tore away any other traits that made him a person. The Anders of Awakening is gone, all that's left is a rage-filled shell that uses "justice" (not the spirit, the concept) as an excuse to commit an horrific act of violence against a group of people without accounting for the fact some of those people may have supported his cause if he'd gone around it in a different way. His murders were indescriminate, and his hatred of the Chantry seems to have become one with his hatred of circles and templars. Now Fenris is a slightly different animal. Yes, he hates slavers and slavery, and his attitude towards mages has certainly been coloured by his past experiences, but he is not so entrenched in his opinions that he's incapable of seeing things differently. I don't see him ever coming around to slavery being a good thing, but when it comes to mages he does show he's capable of giving the matter further thought - he even says to Anders that he does not believe all mages are bad, citing Hawke and/or Bethany as examples. Interesting that you ask about Sebastian (and thanks for being interested in my opinion, I'm weirdly flattered). I've only ever played Sebastian's story with him recommiting to the chantry. I'm in two minds about whether or not that's the best choice, he has qualities that might make him a good ruler, but his commitment to the chantry in spite of his family's murder is, I think, quite clear throughout his story. The fact he's so conflicted about it shows he considers his existing commitment to be important. He is also ready to admit his flaws - saying the demon's accusations of him desiring power were not entirely false, for instance. As a character on the whole I like him, I think his struggle with right and wrong was interesting. To be honest, I wish there had been a similar struggle with Anders. Do you ever wish you could have shaken him and said "Just talk to me!" Maybe if he'd been more open with Hawke, s/he could have helped him move away from his dark terrorist path and found another way to push his cause. His situation was not helped at all by the fact he was in Kirkwall, which was a corrupt institution. Under a different Knight Commander, or even under another First Enchanter, the story could have had a very different outcome. But the story is what it is, as much as we might want to change it. I frequently wish the Anders character had been expanded in another direction. Awakening Anders, whilst not perfect and perhaps already a murderer, was redeemable and vulnerable and could have been guided to a better purpose. Edit: Also, thinking about your comments on Isabela, I have to say I've never been a big fan. I like having her in my party at times because she can be funny, but actually if she chooses to abscond with the Koslun book and not return, I find her detestable. She has resources and friends who would help her with any other problem, but she's either so selfish, or so insecure about friendship, that she decides her own safety is more important than the lives of hundreds of civilians who have done nothing to incur the wrath of the Qun. I don't really go for the whole sluttish aspect of her character either BUT that is entirely a matter of personal taste and I would never factor it into a discussion about her character in general.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 30, 2016 21:10:07 GMT
Anders don't hate the Chantry, he is Andrastian, just not trust in the Chantry's doctrines, and don't hate personally every templars (just as Fenris don't hate all mages/Magisters), he hate only the Templar Order. That scene not my favorite, when Anders want to force Hawke. I wrote that this was the point, when Hawke almost refused him (I have Hawke, who refused, in close friendship), but finally understand: he was nervous, and he explained, later. I understand his reason. In Awakening Anders was helpless and uncertain, and cynical. He was not light-hearted guy, he was angry and sad. And he hated the Templars. He said, his anger corrupted Justice (this is not really true, more complicated, but he still believe this) But he was not murderer of that Templars... His purpose was only the survive, a better, peaceful life. This purpose still exist later, just added the mage freedom. This was his choice, when he offered his body to Justice. Why I asked you about Sebastian? Most people think about Sebastian, who is a nice, but a bit boring, religious guy. You see his darker side. But actually Sebastian start a war against Kirkwall, because of his vengeance, because of Anders, who is NOT in Kirkwall. Why would he in Kirkwall? You can say about him so many bad thing, but he is not an idiot... This is only a War Table quest in Inquisition, if you spared Anders' life. So: this is almost invisible. You think: Sebastian are better person, than Anders? No, he is not a good ruler. Who abuse of his power because of his own vengeance, that person is not good ruler. I understand his reason in DA2 (but I dont like his blackmail), he loved Elthina, but I dont understand why he do that in Inquisition. And no one consider him a mass murderer... About Isabela: Yes, I see, and this is what I said: You don't like Isabela, but you don't consider her a murderer monster, as Anders. I like Isabela, she is much more, than you can se her in the first sight, but I don't like this double standard.
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Post by vixsyn on Oct 31, 2016 10:26:54 GMT
I think Sebastian has some qualities that would make him a good ruler, the most prominent of which is that he genuinely seems to care for the well being of his people. On the other hand, he is a zealot, and I don't think zealots ever make good leaders - in fact, if I were to address the game as a whole, I would say most of the problems in their society stem from exactly that: they let religion control almost every aspect of what they do and who they are. When has that system ever worked out well in the long run? To be fair, I was thinking of Sebastian only in his DA2 context. Him starting a war against Kirkwall? I don't consider that to be justified.
Awakening Anders was not light-hearted as you say, but he had the potential to be a force of good in the fight against chantry domination of mages and, sadly, his joining with Justice seemed to drive him in another direction. When I read the book involving Divine Justinia and the mages rebelling against the chantry, I found myself sympathising a lot with Rhys, who didn't want to fight but didn't want to back down, but at least attempted to approach things diplomatically rather than through violent rebellion.
I'm not going to say I've fully investigated every dialogue path with the Anders of DA2 because I'm not sure I have - it's possible but to be honest there's so much party variance and choices that it's unlikely - but I don't remember him ever being positive about templars. And this seemed very unfair to me, as many templars involved in either the books or games or through dialogue with characters have been kind and considerate of their mage charges, and have attempted to walk the fine line between jailors and protectors.
I think you may have misunderstood me regarding Isabela. I actually do consider her to be murderous. Not only does she put herself ahead of others in Act 2, but she betrays someone close to her, which is unforgivable. Maybe that's part of my issue with Anders - not just his past or what he does to Kirkwall, but his betrayal.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 31, 2016 12:27:33 GMT
I think Sebastian has some qualities that would make him a good ruler, the most prominent of which is that he genuinely seems to care for the well being of his people. On the other hand, he is a zealot, and I don't think zealots ever make good leaders - in fact, if I were to address the game as a whole, I would say most of the problems in their society stem from exactly that: they let religion control almost every aspect of what they do and who they are. When has that system ever worked out well in the long run? To be fair, I was thinking of Sebastian only in his DA2 context. Him starting a war against Kirkwall? I don't consider that to be justified. Awakening Anders was not light-hearted as you say, but he had the potential to be a force of good in the fight against chantry domination of mages and, sadly, his joining with Justice seemed to drive him in another direction. When I read the book involving Divine Justinia and the mages rebelling against the chantry, I found myself sympathising a lot with Rhys, who didn't want to fight but didn't want to back down, but at least attempted to approach things diplomatically rather than through violent rebellion. I'm not going to say I've fully investigated every dialogue path with the Anders of DA2 because I'm not sure I have - it's possible but to be honest there's so much party variance and choices that it's unlikely - but I don't remember him ever being positive about templars. And this seemed very unfair to me, as many templars involved in either the books or games or through dialogue with characters have been kind and considerate of their mage charges, and have attempted to walk the fine line between jailors and protectors. I think you may have misunderstood me regarding Isabela. I actually do consider her to be murderous. Not only does she put herself ahead of others in Act 2, but she betrays someone close to her, which is unforgivable. Maybe that's part of my issue with Anders - not just his past or what he does to Kirkwall, but his betrayal. Yes, Sebastian starting a war, want to annex Kirkwall, because of Anders. But why Kirkwall? Kirkwall full of innocents, and lack of Anders. Sebastian don't have any logical reason to attack Kirkwall. If he want to arrest Anders, why not send spies to Kirkwall, for example... He is vengeful, hot-headed and illogical thinking, with this traits he never will be good ruler, AND yes, he is zealot. In DA2 I somehow can understand his rage, but not against Kirkwall, and not that he want to abuse of his power for vengeance, but I can explain this with his sadness. But he looked, that he will fulfill his threat. He thought first NOT the people ONLY Elthina, and second also he want to vengeance against the whole Kirkwall, NOT only Anders and Hawke. As I see, he's much worse than Anders. Why he not just killed him, as did it Alistair with Loghain, if the Warden don't wanted to do it? He wanted a great vengeance, not justice! Anders not traitor. He just wanted to succeed his purpose. Yes, at any cost. And yes, he also fanatic. But he dont knew about Justinia's ideas, he just saw, what happen in Kirkwall, and that was incredible cruel. And Elthina never care about Kirkwall, about people, she only care about the "eternity". I don't wonder, that Anders saw, this is the the last chance to draw the attention. In the Chantry we saw always only Elthina, templars and sisters with one-two workers, and once one praying woman. Never was more people in chantry, except the criminals, and Petrice's mobs. In Ferelden the Chantrys was full of people. The Kirkwall Chantry was almost empty always, and bandits, templars fought there, not once. We can't say: that was a sacred place before the blew... This is not excuse of Anders, just an addition. You want a proof, that Anders don't hate every themplars? On the kidnapping scene, anders told: "Mages and Templars work together?" And something similar, whit that comment: this is a dream... If I remember correctly. l I'll check it. Anders did, what he done, but he's not evil, nor Justice. No: I dont think Sebastian is "evil" just not better than Anders. That was a nasty thing from Isabela, that betrayed her friends. But not this her greatest sin. She was not stupid, she was able to see (and Hawke told her...): that what she want to do, could push Kirkwall in a war with qunari. I am aware that what I wrote is also maybe extreme. But in any case I want to show an another point of view as well. And to show why it's so strange to me, that Anders the worst person in this whole story according to many people. Because it's not true.
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Post by phoray on Oct 31, 2016 19:58:11 GMT
What are all the ways to lose Anders as a companion?
Other than before sex twice,and the end game,when can you breakup with Anders?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 31, 2016 20:11:20 GMT
What are all the ways to lose Anders as a companion? Other than before sex twice,and the end game,when can you breakup with Anders? When you kill him, or let him go away. I tried the betray-thread, and seems Anders was disappointed, but still not broke up (at least he don't talked about it... he was on 100% friendship). But yes, exist one such an occasion: after the Feynriel's Fade quest, if Hawke deal with demon, and offer Feynriel's soul (he can kill the demon, or not, the point is: s/he should not say to Anders, that this was a trick.) I posted this before (this is the "good" version, not the break-up):
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Post by phoray on Oct 31, 2016 20:38:55 GMT
What are all the ways to lose Anders as a companion? Other than before sex twice,and the end game,when can you breakup with Anders? When you kill him, or let him go away. I tried the betray-thread, and seems Anders was disappointed, but still not broke up (at least he don't talked about it... he was on 100% friendship). But yes, exist one such an occasion: after the Feynriel's Fade quest, if Hawke deal with demon, and offer Feynriel's soul (he can kill the demon, or not, the point is: s/he should not say to Anders, that this was a trick. I posted this before (this is the "good" version, not the break-up):
So one can end things a couple of times before sex, right after sex,and on the Fenriel quest if you deal with the demon, also in the Gallows. I thought he broke up with you if you refused to get ingredients? And you can let him leave after Ella or exile post Chantry explosion. That's all of it?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 31, 2016 20:45:20 GMT
When you kill him, or let him go away. I tried the betray-thread, and seems Anders was disappointed, but still not broke up (at least he don't talked about it... he was on 100% friendship). But yes, exist one such an occasion: after the Feynriel's Fade quest, if Hawke deal with demon, and offer Feynriel's soul (he can kill the demon, or not, the point is: s/he should not say to Anders, that this was a trick. I posted this before (this is the "good" version, not the break-up):
So one can end things a couple of times before sex, right after sex,and on the Fenriel quest if you deal with the demon, also in the Gallows. I thought he broke up with you if you refused to get ingredients? And you can let him leave after Ella or exile post Chantry explosion. That's all of it? I think, yes. Now again I look at the betray-thread, but Anders still in Hawke Mansion. I don't know, this is a bug or not. True, I don't got the pillow quest.
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Post by Dovahkiin N7 on Nov 7, 2016 18:21:41 GMT
I have learnt more about dragon age lore from your heated debate than entire triology. You guys rock.
Btw.. I was busy spending hours in my very latest playthrough as DW shadow- assasin rouge. Take that you flipping cheating enemy rouges and one-handwiggle-and-murder-your-entire-party-including-Avelin, blood mages and arcane horrors. Today I will venture into Vimnark wasteland to check out why the heck Carta is vying for my blood.
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