melbella
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Mar 1, 2019 3:34:08 GMT
Especially as regardless of Shepard's gender or relationship status, you're still her boss! If the positions were reversed and Shepard decided to get into the shower or hot-tub, while still holding a conversation with her as normal, wouldn't this seem super-inappropriate? The most inappropriate part is that I can't use my own damn hot tub.  I don't invite Traynor back the apartment for her second meet up because if I can't use it, no one can.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 1, 2019 3:43:37 GMT
The most inappropriate part is that I can't use my own damn hot tub. I don't invite Traynor back the apartment for her second meet up because if I can't use it, no one can. I don't know if Shepard would want to use it, after Traynor accidentally revealed that Anderson and Kaylee Sanders mostly definitely banged in there. With the Reaper invasion, who even knows if he had the time to have it cleaned before he gave it to Shepard?
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 1, 2019 4:40:51 GMT
The issue isn't that it happens. That's part of Peebee's characterization. The problem is Ryder's response, or limited options. As WC says, the tone is remorseful. I think it's one thing to be a bit sad if someone, especially if you consider them a friend, confessed their feelings and you don't reciprocate, but here she's propositioning you, which is considerably more uncomfortable and awkward as hell. She makes it even worse with the "I don't care if you're involved with someone else" line. I knew the scene was coming and still felt super weird about it and it would have affected how my Scott was around her for a while afterward. It reminds me a lot of when talking to Samantha Traynor as a straight Femshep. If you're not locked in, her shower scene tends to make Shepard seem like they're seriously considering joining her. Same with the hot tub scene as well. Being accused of staring inappropriately at her put me off of inviting her over as it sounded like Traynor had no respect for Shepard being in a committed relationship to someone else or simply not interested. The option that leads to the shower scene should have been marked as a flirt. I honestly don't remember whether it was - but if you don't invite her to use the shower, you can enjoy a nice platonic game of chess. The hot tub scene is a bit weird if they're not romancing. Vega coming over to show off his new tat is a bit strange, too.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 1, 2019 7:11:01 GMT
It reminds me a lot of when talking to Samantha Traynor as a straight Femshep. If you're not locked in, her shower scene tends to make Shepard seem like they're seriously considering joining her. Same with the hot tub scene as well. Being accused of staring inappropriately at her put me off of inviting her over as it sounded like Traynor had no respect for Shepard being in a committed relationship to someone else or simply not interested. The option that leads to the shower scene should have been marked as a flirt. I honestly don't remember whether it was - but if you don't invite her to use the shower, you can enjoy a nice platonic game of chess. The hot tub scene is a bit weird if they're not romancing. Vega coming over to show off his new tat is a bit strange, too. To my memory, the lock in canceled out her interest in a shower but I can't recall if we had the option to deny her that if she showed interest. There were a lot of unintentional romance openings that I didn't realize were still available after telling Garrus the first time Shepard was still committed. I thought that it was the lock in option so some weird side effects happened with both Kaidan and Sam. Upside though is that it's avoidable and we don't need to break their hearts or place them in awkward situations. Except Liara. It never stopped getting awkward with her visiting while Shepard was in the bathroom. Liara: Commander, there's an urg- Shepard: Liara...I'm in the bathroom. What do you think I'm doing right now? |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 1, 2019 7:12:34 GMT
IIRC, that scene got a lot of pushback and Hawke's reaction was changed in a patch. Unless it is the final patch, which I'm not using on my DA2 install (for reasons beyond the scope of this thread), I can say this is not accurate for 1.03 and lower. I played DA2 last year and that was still in the game. If anyone wants to chime in who has played DA2 with 1.04 and can confirm this, I'll happily believe it. (Also, tbf I'm not sure people were interpreting it as it was intended. I read it as Hawke being somewhat bemused or surprised at how forward she was.) Well then the writers and cine designers failed to show their intent. Wouldn't be the first time. While I can appreciate that, intent only goes so far. Once you create a product and release it into the world, you have no control over how people respond to it.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 1, 2019 7:20:05 GMT
The most inappropriate part is that I can't use my own damn hot tub. I don't invite Traynor back the apartment for her second meet up because if I can't use it, no one can. I don't know if Shepard would want to use it, after Traynor accidentally revealed that Anderson and Kaylee Sanders mostly definitely banged in there. With the Reaper invasion, who even knows if he had the time to have it cleaned before he gave it to Shepard?
Well, after Zaeed and Garrus' tampering, they might get it sterile if Shep dips a toe in it... |
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 1, 2019 15:26:43 GMT
The option that leads to the shower scene should have been marked as a flirt. I honestly don't remember whether it was - but if you don't invite her to use the shower, you can enjoy a nice platonic game of chess. The hot tub scene is a bit weird if they're not romancing. Vega coming over to show off his new tat is a bit strange, too. To my memory, the lock in canceled out her interest in a shower but I can't recall if we had the option to deny her that if she showed interest. There were a lot of unintentional romance openings that I didn't realize were still available after telling Garrus the first time Shepard was still committed. I thought that it was the lock in option so some weird side effects happened with both Kaidan and Sam. Upside though is that it's avoidable and we don't need to break their hearts or place them in awkward situations. Except Liara. It never stopped getting awkward with her visiting while Shepard was in the bathroom. Liara: Commander, there's an urg- Shepard: Liara...I'm in the bathroom. What do you think I'm doing right now? LOL. Liara was nothing if not persistent. I can certainly understand how she got on people's nerves. You do have to make the choice to offer Traynor a shower. Otherwise, you'll play chess when she visits Shep's cabin. I don't remember having any issues with Garrus. There was a specific flirt option offered during a chat in ME2, and if you didn't take it, that was that. I always read the relationship as best buds. They do have a tendency to offer multiple opportunities to proceed with a romance until you lock-in. I think some players like to take all of the flirts and see where things go. There are youtubes of people getting Morrigan & Leliana jealous of one another. I had no idea all of those conversations existed until I watched it.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 1, 2019 15:37:24 GMT
Isabela did flirt in that instance, and everyone is fine with that (but how dare Anders do it!!!1), but Hawke's line was "I'll watch your back." She made it into an innuendo. To me the issue with that scene is the goofy smile Hawke gets when Isabela mentions that she has a room at the Hanged Man; it looks like they're interested. It's more about what my PC is forced to do without player input than what the NPC does. Isabela can flirt and make innuendos. Peebee can throw herself at you. That's part of their characterization. But don't make my character act interested or assume that every PC is attracted to the character.
Also, the shadow on your new Alexios pic keeps reminding me of the silhouette of a cowboy hat, so it looks like cowboy!Alexios to me.
I noticed that with Sera. Regardless of how the conversation went, the Inquisitor will get up from the table smiling and giving a sideways glance.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 1, 2019 15:38:30 GMT
 BW really should add a sexuality toggle/trait to the CC. It could be similar to the race icons and the knowledge perks. "Begone thot", "I was just being nice, not gay". (no solution for PB, combat roll maybe?) Ooh, they can even bring back desire demons this way, now with male variants. Fitting fade quests for everyone! Dialogue option: "I like you (No homo)"
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 1, 2019 16:31:17 GMT
IIRC, that scene got a lot of pushback and Hawke's reaction was changed in a patch. Unless it is the final patch, which I'm not using on my DA2 install (for reasons beyond the scope of this thread), I can say this is not accurate for 1.03 and lower. I played DA2 last year and that was still in the game. If anyone wants to chime in who has played DA2 with 1.04 and can confirm this, I'll happily believe it. In the time it took you to post this, you could have found a youtube to see it for yourself - instead of asking "anyone else" for verification. Which is why John Epler decided to change it. He'd opened a post asking for feedback about cinematics, and a lot of people commented on Hawke's reaction to Isabela in that particular scene. It's probably archived somewhere (fextralife, maybe), but I haven't the time or patience to search for it.
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Post by Davrin's boobs on Mar 1, 2019 16:41:23 GMT
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 1, 2019 17:23:00 GMT
In the time it took you to post this, you could have found a youtube to see it for yourself - instead of asking "anyone else" for verification. I had a look just now. I found five versions of the quest, none of which specified which patch it was played on, and all had the smile. It's also not specified in any of the DA2 patch notes. vid 1 vid 2 vid 3 vid 4This one was uploaded two years ago. I might assume that's on the latest patch, but, like me, the person could be intentionally playing on a lower one. I looked at Fextralife as well and was unable to find any posts by John Epler. Their search is not robust. So yeah, still looking for confirmation.
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Post by Davrin's boobs on Mar 1, 2019 17:32:12 GMT
I played a few months ago and my male Hawke smiled, I dont know what version I have, I guess the last one but I'm not sure.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 1, 2019 17:54:15 GMT
I played a few months ago and my male Hawke smiled, I dont know what version I have, I guess the last one but I'm not sure. If you installed from Origin, or console, and allowed the game to patch normally, you will have 1.04, which is the last patch. I'm on 1.03, which I'm able to do because I install from disc and manually add patches from files I've saved.
If you're on PC and want to check quickly, all you have to do is click to start the game. It's right there on the game menu (upper right) before you even click to go fullscreen.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 1, 2019 18:05:09 GMT
I noticed that with Sera. Regardless of how the conversation went, the Inquisitor will get up from the table smiling and giving a sideways glance. While not ideal, some auto-dialogue/reaction is expected on occasion. I'd argue that showing a positive or interested reaction to sexual advancements is its own category. While I don't appreciate it for any sexuality (I don't even flirt with anyone not my intended LI), if I'm playing a gay character, I don't want him reacting that way to a woman. The same is true for playing a straight woman. I'm not offended by it; it's just annoying that that particular agency was taken from me. If the auto-reaction had instead been an eyebrow arch at Isabela's boldness, that would have been acceptable (to me).
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Post by Davrin's boobs on Mar 1, 2019 18:05:56 GMT
I played a few months ago and my male Hawke smiled, I dont know what version I have, I guess the last one but I'm not sure. If you installed from Origin, or console, and allowed the game to patch normally, you will have 1.04, which is the last patch. I'm on 1.03, which I'm able to do because I install from disc and manually add patches from files I've saved.
If you're on PC and want to check quickly, all you have to do is click to start the game. It's right there on the game menu (upper right) before you even click to go fullscreen. I uninstalled a lot of games DA2 included due college because I hadnt enough space in my pc so i cant check it out but yeah that gotta be the 1.04 version because I'm too lazy to manually install all XD there are a lot of instances like that one in Bioware games, the last thing that happened to me it with Shiala in ME2 in my recent playthrough which I didnt remember and I was pissed for several days lol I guess that happens to straight fem Sheps as well since Mass Effect is horribly dudebro-wanker focused.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 1, 2019 23:10:03 GMT
The suggestion of a "sexuality toggle" has always sounded to me like people want the option to not see gays in their games at all, which, like... no.
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Post by ellanathehamster on Mar 2, 2019 2:25:02 GMT
Well, sexuality toggle can work both ways- you can pick not to see straights  But imo this mechanic is bad story wise. Character should be outside of player influence. If he is straight or if he is gay, he should remain that way no matter what player want. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 2, 2019 10:08:40 GMT
Well, sexuality toggle can work both ways- you can pick not to see straights That's not how a toggle works, though. If the default is how it currently is, a toggle would exist to turn ONE of those options off/on. Toggles are binary. In order to have your suggestion, there would have to be a sexuality list in the menu with three options that say, [ ] Default (opposite-sex and same-sex attraction active) [ ] Opposite-sex attraction only [ ] Same-sex attraction only (Yes, I know your post was mostly facetious.) Aside from that, straight people are the only ones who ever suggest it with any seriousness, so their motivation seems pretty clear. The devs have said they're not doing that as far back as DA2 times when people were being pissy about Anders. John Epler:
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 2, 2019 10:24:38 GMT
Well, sexuality toggle can work both ways- you can pick not to see straights But imo this mechanic is bad story wise. Character should be outside of player influence. If he is straight or if he is gay, he should remain that way no matter what player want. Not a fan of toggles but I don’t agree that character should be out of player influence.Leliana can be influenced by the player and that’s one of best things imo. (Edit i’m Not arguing that we should be able to convince characters they are wrong if they have a defined sexuality) Equally i’m Generally pro playersexuality when you have an artificially limited pool of romances. I don’t see any issue of experiencing a character differently on different playthroughs and most romances outside of exceptions such as issy/Dorian don’t feel like sexuality is this at forefront of characterisation . If a woman plays a different playthrough and romances Cassandra that doesn’t to me break her imo it would cut out the why can’t i romance the plot centric complaints too npcs or non romanceable companions could always be used be shown to be gay, straight, bi etc.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 2, 2019 10:28:47 GMT
but I don’t agree that character should be out of player influence. Leliana can be influenced by the player and that’s one of best things imo. Helping a character with a personal crisis is not the same thing as artificially changing a part of who they are. Do you really think a friend giving you advice about some personal issue is the same thing as them saying, "I think you should go gay/straight?"
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Post by Sifr on Mar 2, 2019 11:17:38 GMT
The suggestion of a "sexuality toggle" has always sounded to me like people want the option to not see gays in their games at all, which, like... no. Imagine how that'd ruin the party set-up in DA2 for instance?
You'd always have to pick Aveline, Bethany/Carver and Varric for Act 1, before switching out Sebastian for Bethany/Carver for Acts 2-3. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd find that insanely dull.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 2, 2019 11:34:58 GMT
but I don’t agree that character should be out of player influence. Leliana can be influenced by the player and that’s one of best things imo. Helping a character with a personal crisis is not the same thing as artificially changing a part of who they are. Do you really think a friend giving you advice about some personal issue is the same thing as them saying, "I think you should go gay/straight?" Sorry No I wasn’t arguing for being able to convince people their sexuality is wrong. He was saying character should be outside of influence I was merely making the point that character should be within the players influence.
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Post by ellanathehamster on Mar 2, 2019 14:22:34 GMT
Helping a character with a personal crisis is not the same thing as artificially changing a part of who they are. Do you really think a friend giving you advice about some personal issue is the same thing as them saying, "I think you should go gay/straight?" Sorry No I wasn’t arguing for being able to convince people their sexuality is wrong. He was saying character should be outside of influence I was merely making the point that character should be within the players influence. I was clearly referencing to characters sexuality there  In regards of influence on how said characters story will evolve- I'm here with you 100%. This is one of the beauties of rpg, having choices with impact. But I personally don't respect playersexuality and toggles- they just make story weaker. I want to see npc who has their own backgrounds, preferences, opinions.
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Post by ellanathehamster on Mar 2, 2019 14:36:53 GMT
Well, sexuality toggle can work both ways- you can pick not to see straights That's not how a toggle works, though. If the default is how it currently is, a toggle would exist to turn ONE of those options off/on. Toggles are binary. In order to have your suggestion, there would have to be a sexuality list in the menu with three options that say, [ ] Default (opposite-sex and same-sex attraction active) [ ] Opposite-sex attraction only [ ] Same-sex attraction only (Yes, I know your post was mostly facetious.) Aside from that, straight people are the only ones who ever suggest it with any seriousness, so their motivation seems pretty clear. The devs have said they're not doing that as far back as DA2 times when people were being pissy about Anders. John Epler: Thank you for quoting Epler- I didn't know about this post and he said it perfectly! Don't like straight/gay character advances- say no and move on. Just like Cass\Sera (for example) say no and we move on if Inq of certain gender is trying to woo them. And in DA4 I hope player is given the option to say no, cause if i am correct, you can't turn down someone based on their gender. I see nothing wrong about saying, for example, to Blackwall: "I'm into girls, me and you wont work out." Or saying to Sera:"I'm straight." Instead we can turn them down because of something like 'I don't like you, i'm too busy for romance, ect ect". Which of course are solid reasons, but at the same time being open about your own preferences won't hurt. I think player own sexuality should also be properly addressed, instead of being concealed or left ambiguous.
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I don't invite Traynor back the apartment for her second meet up because if I can't use it, no one can.
