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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 0:57:18 GMT
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 10, 2018 15:51:59 GMT
One question they failed to answer? Why can some moderately intelligent gamers come up with a better solution than the Intelligence/Reapers? As in, one that isn't "we're committing genocide to save you".
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 10, 2018 17:34:18 GMT
One question they failed to answer? Why can some moderately intelligent gamers come up with a better solution than the Intelligence/Reapers? As in, one that isn't "we're committing genocide to save you". Possibly because the Intelligence or Leviathans would see such attempts at solutions and then would see them fail every time anyway, because the scale being witnessed is at least centuries and millennia and every time had enough problematic factors that peace inevitably fails. Of course, they have their bias regardless. But this is what they would have seen. And they don't consider it genocide, or at least exclusively genocide. It is seen as the closest to a perfect solution that could be managed. If DNA in this scifi world reflects true memories, and synthetics can be considered true people, then indeed the Reapers preserve up to a whole galaxy's existence within themselves, and we just cannot comprehend the scale of how legitimate that is to them. The Intelligence doesn't believe in it as much as the Reapers themselves, stuck in constant 'WE ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING' runtime, but he sees no working alternative that continues the existence of organic life. Typically in mythology, any 'reaper' figures didn't question their role either. Destroy - We don't care, we'll try harder this time, in a new status away from you Lovecraftian entities ruling everything and assuming so much (intelligent reasoning set aside). Control - Those problematic factors? We'll ascend to the point of trying to honestly tackle them together, alongside a restrained you (Reapers). Synthesis - Drastic problems call for drastic, new, solutions. This effect of synthesis is inevitable, and it is time to trigger it now while the shot is available. Intelligence only really supports Synthesis and it may have more reason for that than we are willing to acknowledge in our short-term and designed-ignorance by Bioware, but we have to keep in mind its cosmic perspective that may enforce a form of bias. We only support Destroy but frequent enough information or questions in ME3 can cause doubt in such a cause. And our rivals want Control, which may be a mark against it, yet it does appear to be possible on smaller and seemingly larger extents, and you can try to have hope that the set of factors today are not much like the set of factors during previous cycle and during the time of Leviathans. You won't know, but maybe there's a hope. (A disturbing hope anyway, if we go by ReaperShep's EC musical tone)
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Post by ShadowAngel on Dec 10, 2018 20:58:29 GMT
^^^ "show don't tell" is a good mentality to have when it comes to the gaming industry. Devs will say all the right things only for the reality to be the opposite. That said I do expect them to keep making DA/ME games, I think it's just a matter of what they will be that will have people being cautious.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 10, 2018 21:56:14 GMT
Answers to everything? The catalyst says it preserves species in reaper form. How does it preserve the ones that were vaporized on the beam run? How about the ones on the turian ship that is seen during the cutscene being destroyed by a reaper as Shepard heads to Menae?
Provide some answers? Why not all?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 22:04:08 GMT
Nice to hear... again... that they're planning to keep up both ME and DA and not replace them with Anthem.
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arcanistranger
N2
Elvis Has Left The Building
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Post by arcanistranger on Dec 10, 2018 22:08:04 GMT
One question they failed to answer? Why can some moderately intelligent gamers come up with a better solution than the Intelligence/Reapers? As in, one that isn't "we're committing genocide to save you". I've read countless alternate endings to ME3 with their own ideas behind the Reapers. They're all complete shit. Literally every single one is completely incompatible with the lore of the series and makes absolutely no sense.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 11, 2018 3:08:20 GMT
Possibly because the Intelligence or Leviathans would see such attempts at solutions and then would see them fail every time anyway, because the scale being witnessed is at least centuries and millennia and every time had enough problematic factors that peace inevitably fails. Of course, they have their bias regardless. But this is what they would have seen. I'm sorry, but their solution is a fail at every turn.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 11, 2018 3:11:35 GMT
One question they failed to answer? Why can some moderately intelligent gamers come up with a better solution than the Intelligence/Reapers? As in, one that isn't "we're committing genocide to save you". I've read countless alternate endings to ME3 with their own ideas behind the Reapers. They're all complete shit. Literally every single one is completely incompatible with the lore of the series and makes absolutely no sense. Much like the one in the game that is also incompatible with the lore of ME1.
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 11, 2018 5:38:11 GMT
Possibly because the Intelligence or Leviathans would see such attempts at solutions and then would see them fail every time anyway, because the scale being witnessed is at least centuries and millennia and every time had enough problematic factors that peace inevitably fails. Of course, they have their bias regardless. But this is what they would have seen. I'm sorry, but their solution is a fail at every turn. That's also kind of the point.
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Post by sil on Dec 11, 2018 9:03:30 GMT
Don't.... don't remind me of the lies, the lost hopes and dreams of the Rachni... They should've cleansed the darkness like the sun, instead, the rachni were reduced to mere shadows :'(
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 11, 2018 13:17:32 GMT
I'm sorry, but their solution is a fail at every turn. That's also kind of the point. Not exactly. The Catalyst believed the solution worked for a billion years. The thing is, anything that purports to be saving a person by killing said person isn't working.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 15:29:49 GMT
One question they failed to answer? Why can some moderately intelligent gamers come up with a better solution than the Intelligence/Reapers? As in, one that isn't "we're committing genocide to save you". I've read countless alternate endings to ME3 with their own ideas behind the Reapers. They're all complete shit. Literally every single one is completely incompatible with the lore of the series and makes absolutely no sense. I agree.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 11, 2018 15:33:46 GMT
I've read countless alternate endings to ME3 with their own ideas behind the Reapers. They're all complete shit. Literally every single one is completely incompatible with the lore of the series and makes absolutely no sense. I agree. NO answer would have been better than the one we were given.
Starbrat was absolute sh*t
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 15:44:58 GMT
NO answer would have been better than the one we were given.
Starbrat was absolute sh*t
I already know well how you feel about Bioware's endings, but this statement is about gamer endings... and I've not seen any ones that are better than Bioware's. As we've discussed many times, chopping the ending off with Shepard dying at the console before triggering the crucible would have been your "no answer" ending... but no one seems to like that idea either. One reason is that it would also have to have been a definitive ending to the series... not sequels since the state of galaxy would have had to forever remain an unknown. MET was a story, IMO, destined to wind up in ending difficulty right from it's start in ME1.... mostly because Bioware itself did not have a clear concept themselves as to what the Reapers were and what their role in a Trilogy would be.... and then their ideas kept changing throughout the writing process.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 11, 2018 15:50:29 GMT
NO answer would have been better than the one we were given.
Starbrat was absolute sh*t
I already know well how you feel about Bioware's endings, but this statement is about gamer endings... and I've not seen any ones that are better than Bioware's. As we've discussed many times, chopping the ending off with Shepard dying at the console before triggering the crucible would have been your "no answer" ending... but no one seems to like that idea either. One reason is that it would also have to have been a definitive ending to the series... not sequels since the state of galaxy would have had to forever remain an unknown. MET was a story, IMO, destined to wind up in ending difficulty right from it's start in ME1.... mostly because Bioware itself did not have a clear concept themselves as to what the Reapers were and what their role in a Trilogy would be.... and then their ideas kept changing throughout the writing process.
Player answers for the endings vary in quality. But I reject that they were all worse than what we got. IMO anything, or nothing, would have been a step up.
Me, I would say ending the game at the start of the beam run would have been the best "no answer" ending. Let players figure out for themselves what the final act would have entailed.
But as I have said before, Bioware's first mistake was in not outlining the trilogy. And in doing so, utterly wasted the trilogy's potential.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 11, 2018 16:28:41 GMT
I already know well how you feel about Bioware's endings, but this statement is about gamer endings... and I've not nseen any ones that are better than Bioware's. As we've discussed many times, chopping the ending off with Shepard dying at the console before triggering the crucible would have been your "no answer" ending... but no one seems to like that idea either. One reason is that it would also have to have been a definitive ending to the series... not sequels since the state of galaxy would have had to forever remain an unknown. MET was a story, IMO, destined to wind up in ending difficulty right from it's start in ME1.... mostly because Bioware itself did not have a clear concept themselves as to what the Reapers were and what their role in a Trilogy would be.... and then their ideas kept changing throughout the writing process.
Player answers for the endings vary in quality. But I reject that they were all worse than what we got. IMO anything, or nothing, would have been a step up.
Me, I would say ending the game at the start of the beam run would have been the best "no answer" ending. Let players figure out for themselves what the final act would have entailed.
But as I have said before, Bioware's first mistake was in not outlining the trilogy. And in doing so, utterly wasted the trilogy's potential.
I would totally take an "no answer" ending over the "derp the derp Starkid" ending any day.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 11, 2018 16:40:34 GMT
Me, I would say ending the game at the start of the beam run would have been the best "no answer" ending. Let players figure out for themselves what the final act would have entailed. I like the part about ending the game at the start of the beam run since I found that whole scene to be hilarious. I would have ended the game with Shepard passing out in front of the console. just before the reapers are destroyed.
The player learns from Hackett that it's believed the crucible has enough energy to destroy the reapers. So let the reapers be destroyed. There's your ending. A moment after Shepard passes out, and the arms to the Citadel are opened, it fires the red beam of destroy all over the galaxy. The reapers are destroyed. In regards to ems. The higher it is, the better chance Shepard can survive and less casualties the fleets suffer.
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Post by samhain444 on Dec 11, 2018 16:40:39 GMT
I think that anyone that has played the trilogy more than a few times has the "ending" that they feel would be better than the one we got...not that it actually would be better but they'd like to think so at least.
I think they were on the right track with the EMS and how doing more within the galaxy, gathering more resources, and acquiring the pieces necessary to complete the crucible helped determine how unstable/stable it was when hooked to the Citadel and how destructive it was once fired. Honestly, in my first playthrough, I thought we were going to be faced with a KOTOR-like decision of being able to "Control" the Catalyst/Reapers and use them to our will if the players Renegade score was high enough. I think the biggest mistake in the original concept of the ending was the "The End?"/cliffhanger aspect of allowing the player to fill in the blanks of a series that was rather literal to that point in what it was trying to say. While I didn't think the original ending was that good, I also didn't have the visceral reaction some others did and it didn't prevent from doing other playthroughs...to this day, with the added EC, it still doesn't, as I do a trilogy run each year (yes, I still play the original ME1 all the way through just minus Pinnacle Station).
If the writing quality of the "Initiation" and "Annihilation" novels could be brought into the next "Mass Effect" game, I think you'd have something there.
There will be more "Mass Effect"...it will be interesting to see where they take it from here.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 11, 2018 16:48:10 GMT
I think that anyone that has played the trilogy more than a few times has the "ending" that they feel would be better than the one we got...not that it actually would be better but they'd like to think so at least. I think they were on the right track with the EMS and how doing more within the galaxy, gathering more resources, and acquiring the pieces necessary to complete the crucible helped determine how unstable/stable it was when hooked to the Citadel and how destructive it was once fired. Honestly, in my first playthrough, I thought we were going to be faced with a KOTOR-like decision of being able to "Control" the Catalyst/Reapers and use them to our will if the players Renegade score was high enough. I think the biggest mistake in the original concept of the ending was the "The End?"/cliffhanger aspect of allowing the player to fill in the blanks of a series that was rather literal to that point in what it was trying to say. While I didn't think the original ending was that good, I also didn't have the visceral reaction some others did and it didn't prevent from doing other playthroughs...to this day, with the added EC, it still doesn't, as I do a trilogy run each year (yes, I still play the original ME1 all the way through just minus Pinnacle Station). If the writing quality of the "Initiation" and "Annihilation" novels could be brought into the next "Mass Effect" game, I think you'd have something there. There will be more "Mass Effect"...it will be interesting to see where they take it from here. The Crucible itself was a joke
"We have these incomplete blueprints to something that puts out a lot of energy. Maybe it's a weapon. Maybe it's a Reaper-sized microwave oven. But hell, it's not like we have anything better to do while the Reapers have their way with the galaxy, let's build it, turn it on, and see what happens!"
We should have known from the start what it could do, and what it could POTENTIALLY do, and gather resources based on what outcome we want it to provide. Do we want it to blow up Reapers, or control them, or whatever? This could have led to mutually exclusive missions, conversations, choices made. And not to some idiotic "shoot the tube, grab the electrodes, throw myself into a column of space magic" choice. This would be something we WORKED towards.
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Post by samhain444 on Dec 11, 2018 17:06:40 GMT
I think that anyone that has played the trilogy more than a few times has the "ending" that they feel would be better than the one we got...not that it actually would be better but they'd like to think so at least. I think they were on the right track with the EMS and how doing more within the galaxy, gathering more resources, and acquiring the pieces necessary to complete the crucible helped determine how unstable/stable it was when hooked to the Citadel and how destructive it was once fired. Honestly, in my first playthrough, I thought we were going to be faced with a KOTOR-like decision of being able to "Control" the Catalyst/Reapers and use them to our will if the players Renegade score was high enough. I think the biggest mistake in the original concept of the ending was the "The End?"/cliffhanger aspect of allowing the player to fill in the blanks of a series that was rather literal to that point in what it was trying to say. While I didn't think the original ending was that good, I also didn't have the visceral reaction some others did and it didn't prevent from doing other playthroughs...to this day, with the added EC, it still doesn't, as I do a trilogy run each year (yes, I still play the original ME1 all the way through just minus Pinnacle Station). If the writing quality of the "Initiation" and "Annihilation" novels could be brought into the next "Mass Effect" game, I think you'd have something there. There will be more "Mass Effect"...it will be interesting to see where they take it from here. The Crucible itself was a joke
"We have these incomplete blueprints to something that puts out a lot of energy. Maybe it's a weapon. Maybe it's a Reaper-sized microwave oven. But hell, it's not like we have anything better to do while the Reapers have their way with the galaxy, let's build it, turn it on, and see what happens!"
We should have known from the start what it could do, and what it could POTENTIALLY do, and gather resources based on what outcome we want it to provide. Do we want it to blow up Reapers, or control them, or whatever? This could have led to mutually exclusive missions, conversations, choices made. And not to some idiotic "shoot the tube, grab the electrodes, throw myself into a column of space magic" choice. This would be something we WORKED towards.
And I was fine with the Crucible and I didn't necessarily have a problem with us being unsure as to what "exactly" it was or it's power output. How do you stop a wave of Reapers that can blot out the sun in the sky? It was established in the first game that taking down a ship like "Sovereign" wasn't an easy thing to do with conventional weapons so something unconventional was necessary. "Arrival" gave Admiral Hackett and the Alliance a clue that the Reapers were closer than ever to returning to the Milky Way so Liara was sent to Mars and the Protheans archives to comb through what they had to see if there was a Hail Mary in the data to assist them. That was Crucible...a gamble...because they lacked better options. Not saying that the "Crucible" is the best option that could be conceived by the "Mass Effect" writers given an infinite amount time but it was obviously the best option conceived of given then amount of time and resources to finish the game in 2 years during the game's development.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 11, 2018 17:08:48 GMT
The Crucible itself was a joke
"We have these incomplete blueprints to something that puts out a lot of energy. Maybe it's a weapon. Maybe it's a Reaper-sized microwave oven. But hell, it's not like we have anything better to do while the Reapers have their way with the galaxy, let's build it, turn it on, and see what happens!"
We should have known from the start what it could do, and what it could POTENTIALLY do, and gather resources based on what outcome we want it to provide. Do we want it to blow up Reapers, or control them, or whatever? This could have led to mutually exclusive missions, conversations, choices made. And not to some idiotic "shoot the tube, grab the electrodes, throw myself into a column of space magic" choice. This would be something we WORKED towards.
And I was fine with the Crucible and I didn't necessarily have a problem with us being unsure as to what "exactly" it was or it's power output. How do you stop a wave of Reapers that can blot out the sun in the sky? It was established in the first game that taking down a ship like "Sovereign" wasn't an easy thing to do with conventional weapons so something unconventional was necessary. "Arrival" gave Admiral Hackett and the Alliance a clue that the Reapers were closer than ever to returning to the Milky Way so Liara was sent to Mars and the Protheans archives to comb through what they had to see if there was a Hail Mary in the data to assist them. That was Crucible...a gamble...because they lacked better options. Not saying that the "Crucible" is the best option that could be conceived by the "Mass Effect" writers given an infinite amount time but it was obviously the best option conceived of given then amount of time and resources to finish the game in 2 years during the game's development. They should have had a clue before they even finished ME1!
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Post by samhain444 on Dec 11, 2018 17:12:36 GMT
And I was fine with the Crucible and I didn't necessarily have a problem with us being unsure as to what "exactly" it was or it's power output. How do you stop a wave of Reapers that can blot out the sun in the sky? It was established in the first game that taking down a ship like "Sovereign" wasn't an easy thing to do with conventional weapons so something unconventional was necessary. "Arrival" gave Admiral Hackett and the Alliance a clue that the Reapers were closer than ever to returning to the Milky Way so Liara was sent to Mars and the Protheans archives to comb through what they had to see if there was a Hail Mary in the data to assist them. That was Crucible...a gamble...because they lacked better options. Not saying that the "Crucible" is the best option that could be conceived by the "Mass Effect" writers given an infinite amount time but it was obviously the best option conceived of given then amount of time and resources to finish the game in 2 years during the game's development. They should have had a clue before they even finished ME1! Okay? I mean, based on the schedule and release of the three games (from 9/2007 through 03/2012) they certainly thought they had a clue. Things don't always work out like you'd want.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 17:14:10 GMT
I think that anyone that has played the trilogy more than a few times has the "ending" that they feel would be better than the one we got...not that it actually would be better but they'd like to think so at least. I think they were on the right track with the EMS and how doing more within the galaxy, gathering more resources, and acquiring the pieces necessary to complete the crucible helped determine how unstable/stable it was when hooked to the Citadel and how destructive it was once fired. Honestly, in my first playthrough, I thought we were going to be faced with a KOTOR-like decision of being able to "Control" the Catalyst/Reapers and use them to our will if the players Renegade score was high enough. I think the biggest mistake in the original concept of the ending was the "The End?"/cliffhanger aspect of allowing the player to fill in the blanks of a series that was rather literal to that point in what it was trying to say. While I didn't think the original ending was that good, I also didn't have the visceral reaction some others did and it didn't prevent from doing other playthroughs...to this day, with the added EC, it still doesn't, as I do a trilogy run each year (yes, I still play the original ME1 all the way through just minus Pinnacle Station). If the writing quality of the "Initiation" and "Annihilation" novels could be brought into the next "Mass Effect" game, I think you'd have something there. There will be more "Mass Effect"...it will be interesting to see where they take it from here. That may have been their intention but breaking everything down to a numerical value potentially devalues the ending to some degree. No matter who you saved or killed and no matter what choices you've made can still net you the best ending for which ever ending (RBG) you choose. Lets take the "HUGE" Rachni decision...100 war assets. A drop in the bucket.
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